Eternal security or conditional security?

[FreeGrace]

Can you show the specific Scripture reference where this is recorded or are you deducing this from the context?

I believe the context is clear about fellowship. First, He begins the chapter on the subject of producing fruit, which is about the believer's lifestyle. Then, He notes that the remaining 11 disciples were saved, from v.3:
"You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you." Back in ch 13, when washing the disciples' feet, He used the word "clean" to indicate that "all of you are clean, but not every one (meaning Judas).

Then in v.4 He says: "Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me."

If this command (remain in Me) is about being or staying saved, then one's salvation is dependent upon oneself, not Christ. We do not and cannot save ourselves. So the command cannot be a reference to either getting or staying saved. It's all about fruit production, not getting or staying saved. The RCC believes that the believer co-operates with Christ in their salvation by the term "synergism".

And, the wording indicates a partnership between the believer and Jesus. The branch (believer) cannot be independent of the vine and bear fruit. By Jesus adding to the command to "remain in Me" that He will "remain in you" shows the partnership.

The last sentence of v.4 also shows partnership for the purpose of bearing fruit rather than getting or staying saved. iow, the believer must "remain in Him to bear fruit".

The concept of fellowship is found in Phil 1:5 - For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now KJV

The word for "fellowship" is koinōnia:

1) fellowship, association, community, communion, joint participation, intercourse
1a) the share which one has in anything, participation
1b) intercourse, fellowship, intimacy
1b1) the right hand as a sign and pledge of fellowship (in fulfilling the apostolic office)
1c) a gift jointly contributed, a collection, a contribution, as exhibiting an embodiment and proof of fellowship

Of the 20 occurrences in the NT, the word is translated as "fellowship" in the KJV 12 times. 4 times as communion, and once each for "communicate", "communication", "contribution" and "distribution".

The 4 times we find "fellowship" in 1 Jn 1 it is this word 'koinonia'.

One would have to argue that one is saved by bearing fruit to use John 15 as support for loss of salvation doctrine. How does that square with Scripture on how to be saved? It doesn't.

 

[FreeGrace]

No assumption. Here is a verse:
"Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end." (Hebrews 3:6 NASB italics in original, bold mine)

Here is Christ's house, the building of God:

"through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, 20having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,21in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit." (Ephesians 2:18-22 NASB)

So the author of Hebrews says I'm a part of that house if I hold fast my confidence (my faith) firm until the end. But OSAS says I'm still a part of that house if I DON'T hold fast my confidence (my faith) firm until the end, in complete and utter contradiction to the plain words of scripture.

Since there remains a misunderstanding of the single Greek word translated "hold fast", further discussion will be of no help.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Once the thief was saved, he remained saved for the rest of His life.

We don't know why Jesus knew the thief was going to indeed be in Paradise after being saved. That's why it's a useless OSAS argument. You can't just decide that because Jesus said the thief would be in Paradise after being saved that any and all people who get saved will also be categorically and without exception in Paradise, no matter what they do or believe, when they die, too. Besides, that contradicts 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB that says you have to hold fast the word to be saved.

If the thief had stopped believing and become de-saved, Jesus' statement would have been untrue

And so the very most you can get out of that is that Jesus knew ahead of time he would be saved at the moment he died. That's all you or I can honestly get out of the passage. It says nothing about if the thief believed to the very end, or didn't believe to the very end. You have to add that to the passage to make it defend OSAS.

Just like what He declares for all saved people in Matt 7:23 will be true.

There are three other Biblical things that have to be considered to understand the spiritual state of the people to whom he will say, "I never knew you" to know if it's an OSAS passage or not. It's that 'whole counsel of scripture' thing. Do you know what those other three things are and how they have to be considered when deciding if Jesus is teaching OSAS in Matthew 7:21-23 NASB or not?

 

[FreeGrace]

The testimony about Moses was - And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, Hebrews 3:5

It is the faithful who are given grace... For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Grace is bestowed upon people through their faith.

Those who reject the Lord are cast into hell. That's the message.

But if the Lord creates a new thing, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into the pit, then you will understand that these men have rejected the Lord.” Numbers 16:30
This is an example of those who believe for a while, were baptized into Moses, the cloud and the sea, then later were cast down into hell.
Faithful = grace
Faithless = hellJLB

Well, all this just proves ES and OSAS. Moses BROKE FAITH with God when he struck the rock when commanded to speak to the rock. Since he appeared with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration, it would be impossible for him to be in hell for his faithlessness.

Furthermore, a long time ago I presented a verse that refutes LOS; 1 Sam 28:19 - The LORD will hand over both Israel and you to the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also hand over the army of Israel to the Philistines.”

Now, a few questions:
1. where did Samuel's conscious soul go after he physically died? Paradise or torments?
2. where did Samuel tell Saul that Saul would be the next day, which would be after he died physically?

And, consider how the Bible describes WHY Saul died physically:
"13 Saul died because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance,
14 and did not inquire of the LORD. So the LORD put him to death and turned the kingdom over to David son of Jesse." 1 Chron 10

So, because of Saul's unfaithfulness to the LORD, nor keep the word of the LORD, and did not inquire of the LORD, SO THE LORD PUT HIM TO DEATH.

This is an example of what 1 Jn 5:16 the "sin unto death". It is God's discipline for the unfaithful believer.

So, LOS doctrine teaches that unfaithfulness results in going to hell. Yet Samuel told Saul that he would join him. And we know where Samuel was. Not hell.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Since there remains a misunderstanding of the single Greek word translated "hold fast", further discussion will be of no help.

Is this another 'not really' OSAS doctrine that says to presently 'hold fast' doesn't really mean to presently believe and trust in the gospel by which a person is saved?

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

 

[FreeGrace]

OSAS says one of two things: Truly saved people will believe all the way to the end, or, it doesn't matter if you believe to the very end because you are still saved even in your rejection of Christ. The thief on the cross story addresses neither of these.

Actually, neither statement are biblically true. The Bible plainly says that some will "believe for a while", and that "some will depart the faith", so it's not true that saved people will believe all the way to the end. That's what Calvinists believe, but the concept is refuted from Scripture, as just pointed out.

Second, It DOES MATTER, which I've already pointed out. It matters greatly. Such believers will face God's discipline, which can be as severe as a 1st Century scourging (Heb 12:6). And loss of eternal reward (1 Cor 3:14).

So when describing OSAS doctrine, please always include the biblical doctrine of discipline that goes along with OSAS.

To say it "doesn't matter" is quite wrong. It's just that it doesn't effect one's salvation.

No more than a birth child can un-become their birth parent's child.

And no child can un-become the child of the parent.

 

[FreeGrace]

Please post the scripture that teaches us, those who no longer believe in the name of the Son of God, still have eternal life.
JLB

I'll ask the same: please post the scripture that teaches us that one can lose their salvation.

The proof of "once belief, always saved" is found in the verses of the OP. If they don't teach OSAS, I wonder what they do teach.

 

[FreeGrace]

So if death doesn't mean death, then life doesn't mean life, then hell doesn't mean hell, then God doesn't mean God. Where does it end?

Who said "death" doesn't mean "death"? The word means different things in different contexts, as I have shown. Same for the word "save". Doesn't always mean eternal salvation. Can mean rescue from physical death or danger. Such as Acts 27:20 and 31. And many more verses.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Second, It DOES MATTER, which I've already pointed out. It matters greatly. Such believers will face God's discipline, which can be as severe as a 1st Century scourging (Heb 12:6). And loss of eternal reward (1 Cor 3:14).

....doesn't matter to salvation. Don't divert from the point.
OSAS says it doesn't matter to salvation if you believe to the very end or not.
Non-OSAS knows all about and understands God's discipline for the disobedient (but still believing) believer. But this is about God's wrath being extended to the ex-believer at the end of the age.

So when describing OSAS doctrine, please always include the biblical doctrine of discipline that goes along with OSAS.

That's another topic that only clouds the truth about God's wrath being given to the ex-believer at the end of the age. It is a different subject for a different thread. This is about salvation itself. It does in fact matter to your eternal welfare what you do and believe in this age. Paul said the condition for being presently saved is that you are presently holding firm the word by which you were saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB). Not believing anymore is hardly holding firm to the message by which you were saved. But apparently, OSAS has decided that it is(?) Only you can answer that for us.

No more than a birth child can un-become their birth parent's child.

And no child can un-become the child of the parent.

That is a meaningless analogy since there is no new and distinct child born when the Holy Spirit enters into a person at salvation. God can just as easily withdraw his Spirit from his temple just as easily as he put it in there (Ezekiel 10:18 NASB).

And besides, the analogy is actually us being adopted children of God, for there is actually only one Son of God, Jesus, that comprises the temple of God. We are joined to that Son by virtue of the Holy Spirit. And we can just as easily be un-joined to that Son by virtue of the removal of that Holy Spirit.

 

[FreeGrace]

Is this another 'not really' OSAS doctrine that says to presently 'hold fast' doesn't really mean to presently believe and trust in the gospel by which a person is saved?

I've already made my point of your misunderstanding of the Greek word for "hold fast". I have explained what the word is and what it means. Which is not how it's being spun by LOS doctrine.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'll ask the same: please post the scripture that teaches us that one can lose their salvation.

You have been shown repeatedly the condition for being saved in the end. You have to believe to the very end that which you believed in at the beginning to be saved: "You are saved if you, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

But OSAS says you DON'T have to hold fast the word which was preached to them to be saved. It's another one of it's 'not really' doctrines: It doesn't 'really' mean what it so plainly says.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I've already made my point of your misunderstanding of the Greek word for "hold fast". I have explained what the word is and what it means. Which is not how it's being spun by LOS doctrine.

Just answer the question: Is a person 'holding fast' a gospel that they no longer believe in? How does one hold fast a gospel by which they were saved but which they have then discarded as false and no longer believe in?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'll ask the same: please post the scripture that teaches us that one can lose their salvation.

The proof of "once belief, always saved" is found in the verses of the OP. If they don't teach OSAS, I wonder what they do teach.

They mean exactly what they say. The problem is OSAS's interpretation of them excludes the whole counsel of scripture which says they only apply to those who believe, not to those who have stopped believing.

 

[FreeGrace]

....doesn't matter to salvation. Don't divert from the point.

How have I diverted from the point. IT DOES NOT MATTER to salvation how one lives their life. Because of the promises of eternal security.

If salvation is dependent upon one's lifestyle, then salvation is dependent upon the person himself. How is that salvation by grace? It isn't. Not even close.

OSAS says it doesn't matter to salvation if you believe to the very end or not.

This bothers the LOS doctrine a lot. But what Samuel told Saul refutes LOS doctrine.

Non-OSAS knows all about and understands God's discipline for the disobedient (but still believing) believer. This is about God's wrath being extended to the ex-believer at the end of the age.

I recall a post from one of the LOS proponents who claimed that one loses salvation if one doesn't bear fruit.

What LOS doctrine either is unaware of or just keeps forgetting is the fact that the one who has believed is sealed with the Holy Spirit FOR the day of redemption, not the day of judgment, as LOS would try to spin it.

There aren't any verses that tell us how a sealed believer can be un-sealed by any reason before the day of redemption. If that can be shown, then go for it.

I believe the "bottom line" for the LOS doctrine is a misunderstanding of God's grace. We've seen how many times the term "hyper-grace" has been used. This is a clear example of a negative view towards God having "too much grace" towards those to whom the LOS proponents think don't deserve salvation by certain actions.

Fortunately, God's grace is GREATER (James 4:6) than what LOS doctrine understands.

That's another topic that only clouds the truth about God's wrath being given to the ex-believer at the end of the age. It is a different subject for a different thread. This is about salvation itself. It does in fact matter to your eternal welfare what you do and believe in this age.

It absolutely does matter in regard to whether or not one will receive eternal rewards, including the privilege of reigning with Christ, per 2 Tim 2:12.

Paul said the condition for being presently saved is that you are presently holding firm the word by which you were saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB). Not believing anymore is hardly holding firm to the message by which you were saved. But apparently, OSAS has decided that it is(?) Only you can answer that for us.

It's been answered ad nauseum. LOS doctrine abuses the Greek word for "hold fast".

That is a meaningless analogy since there is no new and distinct child born when the Holy Spirit enters into a person at salvation.

I believe 2 Cor 5:17 refutes this idea. We become a "new creature/creation". One can call it what they want. The point is that we are BORN AGAIN. They Bible says so plainly.

God can just as easily withdraw his Spirit from his temple just as easily as he put it in there.

If that's true, then Jesus must have lied when He said: "“I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;" in Jn 14:16.

And Paul must have lied when he wrote about the believer being sealed with the Holy Spirit FOR the day of redemption, in Eph 1;13,14, 4:30.

I don't believe that either of them lied. Therefore, God WILL NOT AND CANNOT withdraw His Spirit "from his temple". That would make God a liar.

And besides, the analogy is actually us being adopted children of God, for there is actually only one Son of God, Jesus, that comprises the temple of God.

No, we are born again children of God.

We are joined to that Son by virtue of the Holy Spirit. And we can just as easily be un-joined to that Son by virtue of the removal of that Holy Spirit.

There is no teaching in the NT about the removal of the Holy Spirit. It could and did happen in the OT, but that was BEFORE Jesus promised that all believers would receive the Holy Spirit.

But, if there are any verses that support these claims, please post them.

 

[FreeGrace]

Just answer the question: Is a person 'holding fast' a gospel that they no longer believe in?

Once one believes, they possess (hold fast) the Holy Spirit, they possess eternal life.

How does one hold fast a gospel by which they were saved but which they have then discarded as false and no longer believe in?

It's about possession, not holding onto, like a life raft that one can hold onto, or let go of.

LOS doctrine has not proven from Scripture that one is even able to let go of their eternal life or salvation.

Salvation is a condition. How would one be able to let go of their condition? That doesn't make sense. But that's how LOS doctrine thinks.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If salvation is dependent upon one's lifestyle, then salvation is dependent upon the person himself. How is that salvation by grace? It isn't. Not even close.

OSAS seems to always here the necessity for faith to be saved as the necessity for satisfactory works in and of one's own righteousness to be saved. That is NOT what is being argued for. The argument is that one has to have FAITH to the very end in order to be saved in the end. The part you and multitudes of others in the church don't get is that the so-called faith that does not produce the righteous works of the Spirit in a person is not the faith that Paul says saves apart from works (James 2: 14 NASB).

I recall a post from one of the LOS proponents who claimed that one loses salvation if one doesn't bear fruit.

Yes, but you are ignoring the complete argument. One loses salvation if they don't bear fruit BECAUSE THEY HAVE STOPPED BELIEVING IN THE GOSPEL AND HAVE LOST THE HOLY SPIRIT THAT PRODUCES THAT FRUIT IN THEM. It's an argument for the continuation of faith, not an argument for the continuation of self-righteous works.

Fortunately, God's grace is GREATER (James 4:6) than what LOS doctrine understands.

God's grace is not greater than unbelief. That's the one thing that God's grace can't touch. God can't cover the unbelief that prevents a person from receiving the grace that only believing can secure (1 John 5:10-12 NASB).

It's been answered ad nauseum. LOS doctrine abuses the Greek word for "hold fast".

So just say it then. Are you saying the believer who has cast the word of God aside in unbelief is still holding fast and possessing he word of the gospel that saved them?

I believe 2 Cor 5:17 refutes this idea. We become a "new creature/creation". One can call it what they want. The point is that we are BORN AGAIN. They Bible says so plainly.

No, you have to show us that an entirely new and separate entity gets created when one gets born again to show that your human birth analogy shows us it's impossible to be unborn again. Maybe you, like Nicodemus, do not understand the born again experience?
"6“Then the Spirit of the LORD will come upon you mightily, and you shall prophesy with them and be changed into another man. " (1 Samuel 10:6 NASB)

See? No new person is made when one has the Holy Spirit. It's an inner change of person. That's why your analogy of a child not being able to be 'unborn' in no way proves that someone born of the Spirit can not be unborn.

If that's true, then Jesus must have lied when He said: "“I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;" in Jn 14:16.

And Paul must have lied when he wrote about the believer being sealed with the Holy Spirit FOR the day of redemption, in Eph 1;13,14, 4:30.

The whole counsel of the Bible shows us that it is those who believe that have the Holy Spirit and are sealed for the Day of Wrath/Redemption. The ex-believer who no is no longer holding fast to the gospel by which they were saved is disqualified from the promises.

There is no teaching in the NT about the removal of the Holy Spirit. It could and did happen in the OT, but that was BEFORE Jesus promised that all believers would receive the Holy Spirit.

But, if there are any verses that support these claims, please post them.

The Holy Spirit is conditioned on believing. The qualification for having the Holy Spirit is believing. Stop believing and you no longer meet the qualification for having the Holy Spirit and being a part of the body of Jesus.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Once one believes, they possess (hold fast) the Holy Spirit, they possess eternal life.

That's not what it says. It says hold fast the word:
"2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It's about possession, not holding onto, like a life raft that one can hold onto, or let go of.

LOS doctrine has not proven from Scripture that one is even able to let go of their eternal life or salvation.

Salvation is a condition. How would one be able to let go of their condition? That doesn't make sense. But that's how LOS doctrine thinks.

Well, since the passage doesn't say 'hold on to your condition' your argument is meaningless. It says 'hold fast the word'. And it most certainly is possible to NOT hold on to that which you first heard. John even speaks of that:

"24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB)
"God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:11-12 NASB)

So we see that if you do not hold on to that which you heard in the beginning then you will not abide in and have the Son and the Father. And if you do not have the Son you do not have eternal life. Read it.

There is no teaching in the NT about the removal of the Holy Spirit. It could and did happen in the OT, but that was BEFORE Jesus promised that all believers would receive the Holy Spirit.

But, if there are any verses that support these claims, please post them.

Read this post carefully. You'll see the verses you are sure don't exist.

 

[JLB]

I'll ask the same: please post the scripture that teaches us that one can lose their salvation.

The proof of "once belief, always saved" is found in the verses of the OP. If they don't teach OSAS, I wonder what they do teach.

You have yet to provide any scriptures that prove your theory of those who no longer believe are still saved, as only those who have the Son have life.

For we have become partakers, (have the Son), IF...
we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,
Hebrews 3:12-14

Those who hold to the end, what they first had when they heard the Gospel, the hope of our salvation.

Holding fast to that word....
The word of faith.



JLB

 

[MarkT]

This is what OSAS is all about. I call them the 'not really' doctrines of OSAS. What you read in plain words is 'not really' what it so plainly says. The list of passages that 'don't really' mean what they plainly say is incredibly lengthy in OSAS. For example, in the 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 passage I've been sharing, it has been assailed from all angles as not really meaning what it says until finally it has come down to 'saved' not really meaning saved as in salvation.

Well, all you have to do is look up the word 'vain' in the dictionary. adj. unfruitful, unsatisfying, unavailing, ineffectual, empty, worthless. So 'unless you believed in vain' means unless you believed for naught.