[_ Old Earth _] EVOLUTION - A BELIEVER'S PERSPECTIVE

[cupid dave]

Think reality my friend - the faith of Jesus Christ has nothing to do with the errors of evolutionism or the speculations of mysticism - or to put it another way, it has nothing to do with evolutionary mysticism. For the record - 'Theistic Evolutionism' is an oxymoron. You cannot reconcile atheism with theism.

You may be correct about the present theism but what Theistic Evolutionists are doing is reconciling Science Facts with the Bible.

What I see is theists stuck in the past by , still defenduing some ancient guy who convinced people of his medieval generation that his understanding of Genesis made the most sense at that time.

But they refuse to back down and allow a revision of the man's ideas which are now archaic.

 

[zeke]

You may be correct about the present theism but what Theistic Evolutionists are doing is reconciling Science Facts with the Bible.

What I see is theists stuck in the past by , still defenduing some ancient guy who convinced people of his medieval generation that his understanding of Genesis made the most sense at that time.

But they refuse to back down and allow a revision of the man's ideas which are now archaic.

The Bible does not teach "man's ideas" - the Bible teaches the revelation of God and that revelation does not include the notion that man and chimp have a common ancestor or that dinosaurs morphed into birds. And "Scientific Facts" do not demonstrate Darwinian mythology.

 

[zeke]

Doesn't seem very likely, seeing as Darwin suggested God created the first organisms.

You completely misunderstand Darwin my friend - educate yourself. Darwin entered eternity as an agnostic atheist. He cloaked his atheist materialism for the obvious reasons but if one reads his works carefully the truth is easy to see. The fact remains - a fact that you cannot disprove - Darwinism is atheism and Darwin knew exactly what he was doing by pushing that nonsense.

[Darwins's notebooks] include many statements showing that he espoused but feared to expose something he perceived as far more heretical than evolution itself: philosophical materialism -- the postulate that matter is the stuff of all existence and that all mental and spiritual phenomena are its by-products. ~ Stephen Jay Gould​

Philosophical materialism opposes the faith of Christ in every way - where does that leave you?

 

[cupid dave]

The Bible does not teach "man's ideas" - the Bible teaches the revelation of God and that revelation does not include the notion that man and chimp have a common ancestor or that dinosaurs morphed into birds. And "Scientific Facts" do not demonstrate Darwinian mythology.

Teaching ends with learning the notions of God, and a christians is directed to accept Christ as the Truth and the way to better undestanding in regard to the life we face in this world within which we are all trapped until death do we part.

Scientific Facts do demonstrate that man is not an Ape with 24 Chromosomes, (though many biology people still classify man as such).
Man has only 23 chromoosome.

But, the evidence shows that two of the previous Ape Chromosomes suffered an Act-of-God which fused two Ape chromosome together in the womb of an Ape.
Truly, this event was a virgin birth of man, a new species.

God was the father of this new creature.

 

[zeke]

Man has only 23 chromoosome.

Human cells have 23 pairs of chromosomes - 46 total.

But, the evidence shows that two of the previous Ape Chromosomes suffered an Act-of-God which fused two Ape chromosome together in the womb of an Ape.
Truly, this event was a virgin birth of man, a new species.

Is this the 'New Darwinian Paradigm'? Where, exactly does science or the Bible demonstrate this "fused" "virgin birth of man"?

 

[cupid dave]

Human cells have 23 pairs of chromosomes - 46 total.


Lol - is this the 'New Darwinian Paradigm'? Where, exactly does science or the Bible demonstrate this "fused" "virgin birth of man"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromosome_2_(human)

"Chromosome 2 presents verystrong evidence in favour of the common descent of humans and other apes.

According to researcher J. W. IJdo,"We conclude that the locus cloned in cosmids c8.1 and c29B is the relicof an ancient telomere-telomere fusion and marks the point at which two ancestral ape chromosomes fused to giverise to human chromosome 2.

 

[cupid dave]

Human cells have 23 pairs of chromosomes - 46 total.

Is this the 'New Darwinian Paradigm'? Where, exactly does science or the Bible demonstrate this "fused" "virgin birth of man"?

YEP...



All great apes apart from man have 24 pairs of chromosomes.
There is therefore a hypothesis that the common ancestor of all great apes had24 pairs of chromosomes and that the fusion of two of the ancestor'schromosomes created chromosome 2 in humans.
The evidence for this hypothesis isvery strong.

The Evidence
Evidence for fusing of two ancestral chromosomes to createhuman chromosome 2 and where there has been no fusion in other Great Apes is:

1) The analogouschromosomes (2p and 2q) in the non-human great apes can be shown, when laid endto end, to create an identical banding structure to the human chromosome 2. (1)
2) The remains of the sequence that the chromosome has onits ends (the telomere) is found in the middle of human chromosome 2 where theancestral chromosomes fused. (2)
3) the detail of this region (pre-telomeric sequence,telomeric sequence, reversed telomeric sequence, pre-telomeric sequence) isexactly what we would expect from a fusion. (3)
4) this telomeric region is exactly where one would expectto find it if a fusion had occurred in the middle of human chromosome 2.
5) the centromere of human chromosome 2 lines up with thechimp chromosome 2p chromosomal centromere.
6) At the place where we would expect it on the humanchromosome we find the remnants of the chimp 2q centromere (4).
Not only is this strong evidence for a fusion event, but itis also strong evidence for common ancestry; in fact, it is hard to explain byany other mechanism.

http://www.evolutionpages.com/chromosome_2.htm

 

[zeke]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromosome_2_(human)

"Chromosome 2 presents verystrong evidence in favour of the common descent of humans and other apes.

According to researcher J. W. IJdo,"We conclude that the locus cloned in cosmids c8.1 and c29B is the relicof an ancient telomere-telomere fusion and marks the point at which two ancestral ape chromosomes fused to giverise to human chromosome 2.

I see the hypothesis of chromosome 2 fusion but I do not see where this proves man-chimp common ancestry and there was no mention of your "virgin birth of man" via apes. God could have used existing species in situ as the blueprint for more advanced species, including fusing two chromosomes together. He could easily have done this without using the mechanisms suggested by neo-Darwinism.

 

[Pard]

in fact, it is hard to explain byany other mechanism.

http://www.evolutionpages.com/chromosome_2.htm

Except God. That's a much easier and more likely solution to such a question.

 

[zeke]

YEP...



All great apes apart from man have 24 pairs of chromosomes.
There is therefore a hypothesis that the common ancestor of all great apes had24 pairs of chromosomes and that the fusion of two of the ancestor'schromosomes created chromosome 2 in humans.
The evidence for this hypothesis isvery strong.

The Evidence
Evidence for fusing of two ancestral chromosomes to createhuman chromosome 2 and where there has been no fusion in other Great Apes is:

1) The analogouschromosomes (2p and 2q) in the non-human great apes can be shown, when laid endto end, to create an identical banding structure to the human chromosome 2. (1)
2) The remains of the sequence that the chromosome has onits ends (the telomere) is found in the middle of human chromosome 2 where theancestral chromosomes fused. (2)
3) the detail of this region (pre-telomeric sequence,telomeric sequence, reversed telomeric sequence, pre-telomeric sequence) isexactly what we would expect from a fusion. (3)
4) this telomeric region is exactly where one would expectto find it if a fusion had occurred in the middle of human chromosome 2.
5) the centromere of human chromosome 2 lines up with thechimp chromosome 2p chromosomal centromere.
6) At the place where we would expect it on the humanchromosome we find the remnants of the chimp 2q centromere (4).
Not only is this strong evidence for a fusion event, but itis also strong evidence for common ancestry; in fact, it is hard to explain byany other mechanism.

http://www.evolutionpages.com/chromosome_2.htm

Ditto above - chromosome 2 fusion does not prove man-chimp common ancestry. God could have used existing species in situ as the blueprint for more advanced species.

 

[Pard]

Dunno what that means, but He could have also just said "Let it be so..."

One of man's most common faults is assuming God works in any way that is near to our own understanding. We imagine and then can create what we imagine through what we already have to work with. The painter is limited by the colors he has at hand, by the brushes he has, and by the canvas he has. The builder is limited by the strength of his materials, the time he has to build within, and the money he has to build with. The sculptor is bound by the limitations of clay or stone. The gardener is limited by the time of year, the climate, and the water table.

But these are not things that limit God. When you have the power to make out of nothing (as opposed to our limited ability to only make out of what we have at hand) then you can do anything, and as such God did everything. Petty things like limitations, time, materials, laws; they don't hinder God, they just give Him a good chuckle as He keeps on doing what we think He ought not even be able to do!

 

[Barbarian]

Ditto above - chromosome 2 fusion does not prove man-chimp common ancestry. God could have used existing species in situ as the blueprint for more advanced species.

Once you start imagining non-scriptural miracles to cover the holes, any explanation is equally likely.

 

[cupid dave]

Once you start imagining non-scriptural miracles to cover the holes, any explanation is equally likely.

2X

It is childish too, like school yard fights, to take a rational critique of Genesis to the level of merely insisting one's previous understanding of the literature will remain unchanged regardless of the criticism and the degree of support to the contrary.

This is a mental predisposition of humans, in general, called Cognitive Dissonance.

It IS the disease that Christ fiught gainst and suffer the madness of the crucifixion by those insane peoole who would NOT tolerate the evidence of his works since they supported what he told them about scripture.

Though they think they do the work of God in stone walling their positions, they merly mimic the Jews of 32AD:


John 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

 

[cupid dave]

Except God. That's a much easier and more likely solution to such a question.

YEP..
As I stated above, by this Act-of-God, Adam was the still missing link in our own ascent.

The mutation which fused these two ape chromosomes together miraculously gave birth to a new creature in god.
This first mankind was born of a "Mary" not actually impregnated by a man, a species that was of the same kind as this new creature.

Truly, these type of occurences are the works of God, using His Law of Probability.

 

[Pard]

I have literally no idea what you just said...

 

[cupid dave]

I have literally no idea what you just said...

I said that a mutation of the chromosomes was An Act of God.

No Ape-man had anything to do with this.

My point is that this evidence supports that God, himself, by manipulation of the atoms of this earth made the new creature, thereafter called man.


(Note: we can not expect to find evidence of an intermediate species between the Ape mother and the new creature with 23 chromosome)

 

[Adam]

Not ToE, but the Copenhagen Interpretation which states nothing exists until the Wave Function that contains it collapses due to an Observer's presence.

Since we know that the Universe existed long before man existed, that "observer" (whom MUST have been responsible for the collapse of the Cosmic energy at the moment of the Big Bang) is the First Cause.

What you are describing has nothing to do with CI, even if you could demonstrate that the universe is a manifestation of someone taking a meausrement of a probability.

The universe is not a quantum particle.

 

[zeke]

Once you start imagining non-scriptural miracles to cover the holes, any explanation is equally likely.

Does that include the miracle you believe in that theropods mysteriously sprouted wings and few into the future as birds?

 

[jesseedavis]

20. I'm not sure what your distinction is between "proofs" and "evidences". Formal proofs only exist in mathematics. Evolution has been observed in many, many cases both in laboratory settings and in nature. This is all evidence.

Could you please share some of these cases with me?

 

[Barbarian]

(Barbarian, regarding Zeke's tendency to invent miracles)
Once you start imagining non-scriptural miracles to cover the holes, any explanation is equally likely.

Does that include the miracle you believe in that theropods mysteriously sprouted wings and few into the future as birds?

As you learned, theropods had feathers and "wings" long before birds and even before flight. As Archaeopteryx shows, even some transitionals that were more dinosaur than bird, were capable of flight.

No miracle, other than the miracle by a God who was powerful enough to make a universe in which such things can emerge through the nature He made.