[_ Old Earth _] EVOLUTION - A BELIEVER'S PERSPECTIVE

[zeke]

Lord Kalvan, good to see you back. As you see, Zeke has entered meltdown, and is now simply denying everything.

Actually, it is your theropod to bird evolution that is suffering a meltdown - scientists are no longer buying that worn-out myth. And your notion that Augustine was on your side kind of crashed and burned - didn't it? He thought the world was created about 5600 BC - how does that allow for the billions of years needed for goo-to-you evolution? Oops. But your dancing is entertaining.

 

[lordkalvan]

Lord Kalvan, good to see you back. As you see, Zeke has entered meltdown, and is now simply denying everything.

But he makes a nice foil for the lurkers.

Thanks for the welcome. I have missed a lot of recent discussion and may make points that have already been made, but it seems very much a case of plus ca change....

 

[lordkalvan]

kalvan - where have you been hiding my friend? Why don't you provide your "evidence for which evolution exists" on this thread. Remember, we are not talking about beak size on finch populations (biological evolution) - we are discussing man-chimp common ancestry (evolutionary mythology).

Not hiding, but busy, mon vieux. Why don't you provide us your reasoned account of how 'genetics, molecular evidence, etc supports common design'? Barbarian has already provided you with ample evidence of evolution in numerous posts, and I may even have given one or two myself, but as none of this evidence appears to have convinced you why don't you lay out exactly what sort of evidence would convince you?

 

[lordkalvan]

Actually, it is your theropod to bird evolution that is suffering a meltdown - scientists are no longer buying that worn-out myth....

Please provide support for the implication in your assertion that scientists as a group conclude that 'theropod to bird evolution is suffering a meltdown' and can you explain why it is a 'worn-out myth'?
According to this scientific source -

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/diapsids/avians.html

- birds are correctly described as avian dinosaurs, so your argument appears to be moot at best.

 

[Barbarian]

Barbarian has already provided you with ample evidence of evolution in numerous posts, and I may even have given one or two myself, but as none of this evidence appears to have convinced you why don't you lay out exactly what sort of evidence would convince you?

If Jesus appeared to Zeke and told him "This is how I did it.", Zeke would spend a few hours trying to convince Him He was wrong.

 

[zeke]

Not hiding, but busy, mon vieux. Why don't you provide us your reasoned account of how 'genetics, molecular evidence, etc supports common design'?

I have done that many times - a Designer could have repeatedly used existing species in situ as the blueprint for constructing more advanced species. That is why genetic similarity supports common design as well as it does common ancestry. C'est la vie.

 

[zeke]

Please provide support for the implication in your assertion that scientists as a group conclude that 'theropod to bird evolution is suffering a meltdown' and can you explain why it is a 'worn-out myth'?
According to this scientific source -

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/diapsids/avians.html

- birds are correctly described as avian dinosaurs, so your argument appears to be moot at best.

You are a bit out of date - paleontologists are recognizing that modern birds are not descendants of meat-eating dinosaurs. Birds have always been birds and you have offered nothing to support your notion that birds are 'modern dinosaurs' - got science? Your position is anemic at best.

Discovery Raises New Doubts About Dinosaur-Bird Links
Researchers at Oregon State University have made a fundamental new discovery about how birds breathe and have a lung capacity that allows for flight – and the finding means it's unlikely that birds descended from any known theropod dinosaurs.

The conclusions add to other evolving evidence that may finally force many paleontologists to reconsider their long-held belief that modern birds are the direct descendants of ancient, meat-eating dinosaurs, OSU researchers say.

See post​

 

[zeke]

If Jesus appeared to Zeke and told him "This is how I did it.", Zeke would spend a few hours trying to convince Him He was wrong.

Jesus, who was with God "in the beginning" created birds as birds and dinosaurs as dinosaurs. He did not create dinos to someday morph into birds. You have been misinformed by your Magisterium.

 

[lordkalvan]

I have done that many times - a Designer could have repeatedly used existing species in situ as the blueprint for constructing more advanced species. That is why genetic similarity supports common design as well as it does common ancestry. C'est la vie.

You have certainly asserted this 'many times', but I don't recall you providing a reasoned account of how 'genetics, molecular evidence, etc supports common design.' Perhaps you could either link to or cite the thread and number of the relevant post(s)?

 

[cupid dave]

Get back to me when you figure out what a wavefunction is.

The mathematical reference of this term to the =physical carrier of the information contined in a moving beam of light responds to an observor by materializing as either a Wave of a particle.

That response is what is meant by the collapse of the information into one one or the other.





1)The key concept of the theory, which forms a central part of the Copenhagen Interpretation,is known as the "collapse of the wave function".

2)The theory seeks to explain how an entity such as a photon, atom, or anelectron, could "travel as a wave but arrive as a particle."

3)According to the interpretation, what is passing through the split experimentis not a material wave at all, but is a 'probability wave'. ....That wavemerely contains the "probability" for what COULD be real.

4)Once the thing is observed, the wave function collapses and the photon, atom,and electron, or the whole world becomes a reality

5)Nothing is real until it has been observed!

6)We really are saying that in the 'real' world - even outside of the laboratory- until a thing has been observed it doesn't exist. ....But, by observing, allthings materialize

7)This implies that there MUST actually be something 'outside' the universe,(God?), to look at the universe as a whole and collapse its overall wavefunction.....
Then,the Universe materialized and continues to so do.



http://www.thekeyboard.org.uk/Quantum%20mechanics.htm.

 

[cupid dave]

You have certainly asserted this 'many times', but I don't recall you providing a reasoned account if how 'genetics, molecular evidence, etc supports common design.' Perhaps you could either link to or cite the thread and number of the relevant post(s)?

All these things, "genetics, molecular evidence, etc" support the idea that inherent in the First Cause was the spirit of the Cosmos, the Natural Laws which intertwine everything that is Existence and through these forces of nature all life clearly has been moulded as if a glove one the hand of the ever unfolding Reality to which that life must adapt of become extinct.

Hence we see dinosaurs front limbs transform into wings over eons of time, and by such adaptations, they avoid the extinction of their own ancient ancestors who could not.

What we actually see when we examine the species living today is a common set of adaptions which in themselves are evidence of the changes that their predecessors could not adjust to.

 

[cupid dave]

You are a bit out of date - paleontologists are recognizing that modern birds are not descendants of meat-eating dinosaurs. Birds have always been birds and you have offered nothing to support your notion that birds are 'modern dinosaurs' - got science? Your position is anemic at best.

Discovery Raises New Doubts About Dinosaur-Bird Links
Researchers at Oregon State University have made a fundamental new discovery about how birds breathe and have a lung capacity that allows for flight – and the finding means it's unlikely that birds descended from any known theropod dinosaurs.

The conclusions add to other evolving evidence that may finally force many paleontologists to reconsider their long-held belief that modern birds are the direct descendants of ancient, meat-eating dinosaurs, OSU researchers say.

See post
​

Interesting.

Keep us posted when they explain how these birds fit into their concept of evolution from here on.

 

[cupid dave]

The Bible does not teach "man's ideas" - the Bible teaches the revelation of God and that revelation does not include the notion that man and chimp have a common ancestor or that dinosaurs morphed into birds. And "Scientific Facts" do not demonstrate Darwinian mythology.

You say, but it might just be that the Bible DOES teach that man is a branch of the Apespecies which became a separate species when two ape chromosome fused together in the womb of mother ape:

Book:

The Last Human: A Guide to Twenty-TwoSpecies of Extinct Humans

by G.J.Sawyer, (Author)

 

[Barbarian]

Zeke, who has discovered that a minority of ornithologists think that dinosaurs and birds evolved from reptiles, promptly assumed most of them think so.

Creationist reasoning at its best.

Ed Darrell rightly points out that Feduccia is not a crackpot, fringe pundit; he’s done a lot of good work in the field of ornithology. He is not a creationist or ID-advocate either; my main point was that creationists latch on to his ideas because they go against the accepted model for bird origins, and the complaints of Feduccia and others (that they’re an intellectually-persecuted minority challenging “scientific orthodoxyâ€) remind me of arguments used by advocated of intelligent design. While Feduccia does not doubt evolution, his rhetoric does sometimes resemble that of evolution opponents.

What I do find interesting, however, is how many scientists who are primarily ornithologists (like Ernst Mayr) have a problem with a dinosaur-bird evolutionary relationship while paleontologists don’t seem to have the same issue. Unfortunately for Feduccia, he’s known more for his opinions on the dino-bird issue than his other work and the language he (and others who hold his view) uses reminds me of ID-speak, but however wrong he might be on this issue he has contributed important work to the field of ornithology in general.
http://laelaps.wordpress.com/2007/06/04/feduccia-is-at-it-again/

Which sums it up pretty fairly. Feduccia is in a declining minority. But we can't absolutely declare that he's wrong. Maybe birds and dinosaurs did evolve from thecodonts. (Zeke seems to endorse that view, for what it's worth)

 

[cupid dave]

Originally Posted by cupid dave
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromosome_2_(human)

"Chromosome 2 presents verystrong evidence in favour of the common descent of humans and other apes.

According to researcher J. W. IJdo,"We conclude that the locus cloned in cosmids c8.1 and c29B is the relicof an ancient telomere-telomere fusion and marks the point at which two ancestral ape chromosomes fused to giverise to human chromosome 2.






I see the hypothesis of chromosome 2 fusion but I do not see where this proves man-chimp common ancestry and there was no mention of your "virgin birth of man" via apes.

God could have used existing species in situ as the blueprint for more advanced species, including fusing two chromosomes together. He could easily have done this without using the mechanisms suggested by neo-Darwinism.

EXACTLY...
Yes.
That is my point.
God did do this.


God was the father to this new species He created by fusing together two chromosome of an already existing Ape.

This what God does, which science people call "Evolution."

 

[Barbarian]

You say, but it might just be that the Bible DOES teach that man is a branch of the Apespecies which became a separate species when two ape chromosome fused together in the womb of mother ape:

I do find it interesting that creationists have now concluded that modern men and some Australopithecine apes are in the same kind.
http://www.bryancore.org/jcts/index.php/jctsb/article/view/3/8

 

[Adam]

The mathematical reference of this term to the =physical carrier of the information contined in a moving beam of light responds to an observor by materializing as either a Wave of a particle.

That response is what is meant by the collapse of the information into one one or the other.





1)The key concept of the theory, which forms a central part of the Copenhagen Interpretation,is known as the "collapse of the wave function".

2)The theory seeks to explain how an entity such as a photon, atom, or anelectron, could "travel as a wave but arrive as a particle."

3)According to the interpretation, what is passing through the split experimentis not a material wave at all, but is a 'probability wave'. ....That wavemerely contains the "probability" for what COULD be real.

4)Once the thing is observed, the wave function collapses and the photon, atom,and electron, or the whole world becomes a reality

5)Nothing is real until it has been observed!

6)We really are saying that in the 'real' world - even outside of the laboratory- until a thing has been observed it doesn't exist. ....But, by observing, allthings materialize

7)This implies that there MUST actually be something 'outside' the universe,(God?), to look at the universe as a whole and collapse its overall wavefunction.....
Then,the Universe materialized and continues to so do.



http://www.thekeyboard.org.uk/Quantum%20mechanics.htm.http://www.thekeyboard.org.uk/Quantum mechanics.htm.http://www.thekeyboard.org.uk/Quantum mechanics.htm.

4-7 are your own additions and not characteristics stated in CI.

 

[Adam]

You say, but it might just be that the Bible DOES teach that man is a branch of the Apespecies which became a separate species when two ape chromosome fused together in the womb of mother ape:

I checked. It doesn't.

 

[lordkalvan]

You are a bit out of date - paleontologists are recognizing that modern birds are not descendants of meat-eating dinosaurs. Birds have always been birds and you have offered nothing to support your notion that birds are 'modern dinosaurs' - got science? Your position is anemic at best.

This just seems to be your unsupported assertion reasserted in a slightly different format.

Discovery Raises New Doubts About Dinosaur-Bird Links
Researchers at Oregon State University have made a fundamental new discovery about how birds breathe and have a lung capacity that allows for flight – and the finding means it's unlikely that birds descended from any known theropod dinosaurs.

The conclusions add to other evolving evidence that may finally force many paleontologists to reconsider their long-held belief that modern birds are the direct descendants of ancient, meat-eating dinosaurs, OSU researchers say.

See post​

And yet surprisingly you have simply glossed over Barbarian's immediately following reply to your linked post which points out that you have selectively quoted the linked article, ignoring those parts that do not support your argument. So where is your evidence for your implication that scientists as a group are concluding that 'theropod to bird evolution is suffering a meltdown' and where is your explanation of why it is a 'worn-out myth'?

 

[cupid dave]

I do find it interesting that creationists have now concluded that modern men and some Australopithecine apes are in the same kind.
http://www.bryancore.org/jcts/index.php/jctsb/article/view/3/8

Well that is a start....

But all christians will saying that, the 22 names in Genesis genealogy which parallel the descriptions and paleontology of the 22 now extinct species of humans is an example of the amazing divine revelation of God.

This disclosure of the 22 links to modern man is so far out an idea, now long set in the stone of these scriptures, that no atheist can mock the reverence people have for the Bible.

Then of course, there are all the other things I have tirelessly pointed out here, day after day.

Like pangea and the Big Bang and the Cosmic Dark Age, etc.