[_ Old Earth _] EVOLUTION - A BELIEVER'S PERSPECTIVE

[Barbarian]

Let's test your belief. Explain to us the differences between the most advanced Australopithecines and early examples of Homo.

If you don't know anything about it, and were just bluffing, feel free to decline the challenge.

 

[zeke]

Let's test your belief. Explain to us the differences between the most advanced Australopithecines and early examples of Homo.

If you don't know anything about it, and were just bluffing, feel free to decline the challenge.

Is this diversion your admission that you cannot present an evolutionary progression from extinct ape lines to man other than more hand-waiving? Were you just bluffing? Please feel free to decline the challenge as you have done repeatedly. We will understand your dilemma. It is not easy for you to present real science to support mythology - is it?

 

[Barbarian]

(Barbarian cites transitional hominins)

(Zeke claims they aren't transitionals)

Barbarian suggests:
Let's test your belief. Explain to us the differences between the most advanced Australopithecines and early examples of Homo.

If you don't know anything about it, and were just bluffing, feel free to decline the challenge.

(Zeke delcines)

Yep. The usual.

Is this diversion your admission that you cannot present an evolutionary progression from extinct ape lines to man other than more hand-waiving?

We were going to test your claim that these transitionals aren't transitionals. But you dodged the question. Even honest YE creationists admit they are transitionals.

Were you just bluffing?

Calling your bluff. You denied that these hominins (which even YE creationist Kurt Wise says are transitionals) are transitional. So I called you on it. You folded. Which is all we need to know.

You're going to need more than denial. It's time to support your claims.

 

[zeke]

Let's test your belief.

You continue to dance. Just admit that cannot present an evolutionary progression from extinct ape lines to man. We will understand your dilemma. It is not easy to present real science to support mythology - is it?

 

[Barbarian]

I gave you a list of transitionals, which even honest creationists admit to be so.

You denied it, but when asked to substantiate your claim, declined to do so. So until you step up and do it, we can only infer that you have nothing.

While we're waiting for you to step up again, do you want to see the evidence again, for them as transitional?

 

[zeke]

I gave you a list of transitionals...

You dance the same jig. You have provided a list of now-extinct species, waived your hands in the air and said Darwinists say these species are transitionals, therefore they are transitionals - circularity at its best. Where is your science - got any?

Provide on this thread evidence from science that proves an evolutionary progression from extinct ape lines to man. Present the required evidence to support mythology as science.

Again folks - we see what happens when those who have placed their faith in Darwinian mythology react when they are required to present real science to support bedtime stories - they can't produce but they can dance.

 

[Barbarian]

You dance the same jig. You have provided a list of now-extinct species, waived your hands in the air and said Darwinists say these species are transitionals, therefore they are transitionals

If you were honest, you'd admit that I didn't say that. Shame on you. You cannot serve God by that behavior. You were shown why these are transitional; these thread are full of evidence showing why. Shame on you.

Provide on this thread evidence from science that proves an evolutionary progression from extinct ape lines to man.

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=42229&p=643239&viewfull=1#post643239

Surprise.

 

[zeke]

If you were honest, you'd admit that I didn't say that.

Didn't say what? Where is your evidence from science that proves an evolutionary progression from extinct ape lines to man? You appear to be having trouble defending your mythology again - yes?

Surprise.

No surprise at all - species similarity points to a Designer. It that it or do you have anything else?

Darwinists believe that the mutation-selection mechanism accomplishes wonders of creativity not because the wonders can be demonstrated, but because they cannot think of a more plausible explanation for the existence of wonders that does not involve an unacceptable creator, i.e., a being or force outside the world of nature. ~ Phillip Johnson​

If you can ever find your evolutionary progression I will be happy to evaluate it for you.

 

[Barbarian]

Zeke forgets that he's a Christian:

You dance the same jig. You have provided a list of now-extinct species, waived your hands in the air and said Darwinists say these species are transitionals, therefore they are transitionals

Barbarian observes:
If you were honest, you'd admit that I didn't say that. Shame on you.

Didn't say what?

What you wrote above. You cannot serve God by that behavior. You were shown why these are transitional; these threads are full of evidence showing why. And I never said what you claim I did. Shame on you.

 

[St. bernard]

Hi Barbarian, and ‘hi’ to Zeke also,

I’ve been following your discussions with some interest andnote that neither of you are edifying yourselves, your ‘science/religion’, and/orcertainly not the Christian cause. I do not use ‘the Christian cause’ loosely. I,for one, do not consider religion of any form worthy of any consideration. As a‘Bible believer’ I relate to, and succumb in humility to; the ‘The Spirit ofthe Creator as evidenced by His awesome and absolute power’. It is this what Iwould like to turn your attention to for a moment.

There are two things that I’d like to ask that you both do.Visit the two sites linked below... and then make your comments on the powerdemonstrated in the lives of these two men, and then relate ‘Evolution’, (as inmigration from one species to another); for the records of this power rejectsit. I don’t believe that I need to elaborate upon the fact that those who deny ‘thetrue and righteous testimony’ of the Creator shall die in their sin, (unbelief)lest they repent and believe, and are baptised in Christian baptism and thenstill have need to be seem, (from the foundations of the world by God to have overcomeunto the end); to be sealed by the baptism of His Holy Spirit. I’m assumingthat you are aware that none will come to the understanding of the Word of Godexcept he/she is first called by the Creator; and then comes to Him through Jesuscovered with His blood.

1. Please thoroughly peruse the following webpage - http://en.believethesign.com/index.php?title=Congressman_Upshawand explain what power do we witness here which you do not witness within theconfines of your religion/science.

2. Please thoroughly peruse the following webpage -http://www.bridemessage.org/lkgeorge.htmand explain what power do we witness here which you do not witness within theconfines of your religion/science.

My dear friends, I can refer you to thousands of suchdemonstration of the ‘Creative power of God’; but I implore you both to takethe time to research just these two events before returning to comment on thethread. It has become quiet obvious that neither of you two have taken thetrouble to read through the entire post which was originally posted.

May I also bring to your attention the fact that He, (theSpirit we call ‘God’, Who called Himself Elohiym) according to ancientprophecy, manifested Himself in the ‘Image’ of the man... Jesus. Now, on theissue of the creation of man IN THE IMAGE OF GOD... Please read thesescriptures patiently discerning exactly what the scribes were saying.

GENESIS 1:24-25 - And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creepingthing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. And Godmade the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing thatcreepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it wasgood.

GENESIS 1:26-27 - And God said, Let us make man in our image, after ourlikeness: and letthem have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, andover the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing thatcreepeth upon the earth. SoGod created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male andfemale created he them. GENESIS 1:28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, andreplenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea,and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon theearth.

GENESIS 5:1 – 2 This is the book ofthe generations of Adam, (Not Bozo the ape-man). Inthe day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; Maleand female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, inthe day when they were created.

JOHN 1:1 – 15 In the beginning was the Word, andthe Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning withGod. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made thatwas made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the lightshineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sentfrom God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness ofthe Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, butwas sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lightethevery man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world wasmade by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his ownreceived him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to becomethe sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not ofblood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Andthe Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, theglory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. Johnbare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He thatcometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

We all know that John was 6months older than Jesus. So! Ask yourself what John meant when he said, “for he was before meâ€. John wasa prophet! Prophets see visions, as in, “I do nothing except first my Fathershow meâ€. He had seen and caught the revelation of the creation and before thecreation. Amos 3: 7 – “Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealethhis secret unto his servants the prophets.â€

Note that the Word of Godstates that Elohiym created man in ‘His’/‘Their’ image; implying that man wasfirst created as a spiritual soul. Jesus, received God’s ‘Soul’, ‘the Word’ atHis baptism, (through which all that wasto be created... was created; which Elohiym had foreseen, (and then created by His spoken Word),in His mind’s eye, (I’m now referring topre-creation; before the foundations of the world). This ‘soul of Elohiym’ wasthe ‘Light’ that John the Baptist and the others saw descending upon Jesus atHis Baptism. It was this ‘spiritual Soul that made Jesus God! May I point out herethat there was no likeness to an ape as demonstrated in the likeness of Jesus.Neither is there any reference to Adam resembling an ape. History would surelyhave made comment had an ‘ape-like’ man come to Israel contending that He wastheir Messiah.

As a Christian, I do notdispute that the ‘Earth’ may be trillions of trillions of years old. Neither doI deny that God may well have used the earth on several occasions to create,and then allow to be destroyed, many life-styles and forms within this duration.Thus it is that many of the fossils and bone fragments which man finds simplyleave man wondering about the origin of said bones and fossils; and hence theirconfusion surrounding their own origin. This fits well with God’s plan to test the faith of man; to whom, (through(s)election of those who do overcome the deceit and lies of God’s adversary) Hewill share His power through marriage; as promised in the Word. REVELATION 3:21 To him that overcomethwill I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am setdown with my Father in his throne.

EPHESIANS 4:24
24 And that ye put on the new man, whichafter God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

COLOSSIANS 3:10
10 And have put on the new man, whichis renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:...

Soon the Bride will put onimmortality... Paul, speaking to the believers says...

I CORINTHIANS 15:51-54

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery;We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinklingof an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shallbe raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must puton incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shallhave put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, thenshall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up invictory.

God... hiding Himself insimplicity!

Bless you both!

St. Bernard

 

[Barbarian]

I’ve been following your discussions with some interest andnote that neither of you are edifying yourselves, your ‘science/religion’, and/orcertainly not the Christian cause.

Barbarian are notoriously unedifying.

I do not use ‘the Christian cause’ loosely. I,for one, do not consider religion of any form worthy of any consideration. As a‘Bible believer’ I relate to, and succumb in humility to; the ‘The Spirit ofthe Creator as evidenced by His awesome and absolute power’. It is this what Iwould like to turn your attention to for a moment.

I'm wondering why you suppose your particular understanding is superior to mine.

There are two things that I’d like to ask that you both do.Visit the two sites linked below...

I'd be pleased to hear what you think is compelling on those sites. This is a discussion forum. If you want to discuss, welcome.

My dear friends, I can refer you to thousands of suchdemonstration of the ‘Creative power of God

There are two more reliable sources. His word in Scripture, and what St. Paul mentions:

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.

These will guide you right. The ideas and doctrines of men, not so much.

 

[zeke]

You were shown why these are transitional; these threads are full of evidence showing why.

You are chasing your tail. If/when you can provide the evolutionary transition between your alleged common ancestor of man and chimp then present it and we will review it for you. Remember, just because man and dead-end apes have similar thigh bones does not prove common ancestry - it works well for common design. Give us some real science.

 

[zeke]

I don’t believe that I need to elaborate upon the fact that those who deny ‘thetrue and righteous testimony’ of the Creator shall die in their sin, (unbelief)lest they repent and believe, and are baptised in Christian baptism and thenstill have need to be seem,

Appreciate the comments but they are off-topic.

 

[Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
You were shown why these are transitional; these threads are full of evidence showing why.

You are chasing your tail.

I'm watching you squirm. The evidence for transitionals to humans is so good that even some YE creationists have admitted so.

Evolution is not a theory in crisis. It is not teetering on the verge of collapse. It has not failed as a scientific explanation. There is evidence for evolution, gobs and gobs of it. It is not just speculation or a faith choice or an assumption or a religion. It is a productive framework for lots of biological research, and it has amazing explanatory power. There is no conspiracy to hide the truth about the failure of evolution. There has really been no failure of evolution as a scientific theory. It works, and it works well...Creationist students, listen to me very carefully: There is evidence for evolution, and evolution is an extremely successful scientific theory. That doesn't make it ultimately true, and it doesn't mean that there could not possibly be viable alternatives. It is my own faith choice to reject evolution, because I believe the Bible reveals true information about the history of the earth that is fundamentally incompatible with evolution. I am motivated to understand God's creation from what I believe to be a biblical, creationist perspective. Evolution itself is not flawed or without evidence. Please don't be duped into thinking that somehow evolution itself is a failure. Please don't idolize your own ability to reason. Faith is enough. If God said it, that should settle it.

http://toddcwood.blogspot.com/2009/09/truth-about-evolution.html

Darwin’s fourth expectation - of stratomorphic series - has been confirmed by such examples as the early bird series,33 the tetrapod series,34,35 the whale series,36 the various mammal series of the Cenozoic37 (for example, the horse series, the camel series, the elephant series, the pig series, the titanothere series, etc.), the Cantius and Plesiadapus primate series,38 and the hominid series.39 Evidence for not just one but for all three of the species level and above types of stratomorphic intermediates expected by macroevolutionary theory is surely strong evidence for macroevolutionary theory. Creationists therefore need to accept this fact. It certainly CANNOT said that traditional creation theory expected (predicted) any of these fossil finds.
http://www.bryancore.org/anniversary/04.pdf

If/when you can provide the evolutionary transition between your alleged common ancestor of man and chimp then present it and we will review it for you.

I showed you the evidence, and you ran away from it. Do you want me to post it again?

Remember, just because man and dead-end apes have similar thigh bones does not prove common ancestry - it works well for common design.

Honest creationists disagree with you. Remember, you're still confusing analogy and homology. Wise knows the difference, which is why he admits the transitionals.

No point in denying what's so obvious.

 

[zeke]

The evidence for transitionals to humans is so good that even some YE creationists have admitted so.

Lol - but you just can't quite post - on this thread - that "good evidence" that proves man-chimp common ancestry - right? You have provided nothing other than similarity and similarity works well for common design. You and your one "YE creationist' are wrong. Is that about all you have? Your argument is anemic - at best.

 

[St. bernard]

Barbarian are notoriously unedifying.



I'm wondering why you suppose your particular understanding is superior to mine.



I'd be pleased to hear what you think is compelling on those sites. This is a discussion forum. If you want to discuss, welcome.



I’ve beenfollowing your discussions with some interest andnote that neither of you areedifying yourselves, your ‘science/religion’,and/orcertainly not the Christian cause.

---End Quote---

Barbarian are notoriously unedifying. On this point I have no contention... but your motive to maintain such is quiet disconcerting...since your signature identifies you as a ‘christian’ of the Roman Catholic faith. It makes sense to me; but others may find it confusing since the Roman Catholic institution claims to be the ‘mother ‘christian’ Church’. I’m well aware that their dogma allows for the ‘theory’ of evolution to be acceptable within their faith; they also believe that Mary can save them if Jesus won’t, and (among many other dogmas) that if they miss the bus in this life, they can spend sometime in an imaginary place called ‘purgatory’ until they become good, and clean, and fresh!? None of those teachings are scripturally based!

---Quote---

I do not use ‘theChristian cause’ loosely. I,for one, do not consider religion of any formworthy of any consideration. As a‘Bible believer’ I relate to, and succumb inhumility to; the ‘The Spirit ofthe Creator as evidenced by His awesome andabsolute power’. It is thiswhat Iwould like to turn your attention to for a moment.

---End Quote---

I'm wondering why you suppose your particularunderstanding is superior to mine. I’m not supposing anything!... but you can continue to wonder! The reflection on your faith, or lack thereof, in contrast to mine will do you an immense amount of good.

---Quote---

There are two things that I’d like to ask that you both do.Visit the two sites linkedbelow...

---End Quote---

I'd be pleased to hear what you think is compelling onthose sites. This is a discussionforum. If you want to discuss,welcome. What I find compelling on those sites are the testimonies of the ‘presence’ of the almighty creator, Who took enough interest to come into the midst of sinful men for the simple purpose of vindicating His Word which He was dispensing among sinners, some of whom will ‘Hear what the Spirit saith unto the church’ of this day... and be called out of the man-made institutions; to serve God and be changed. In addition, the power of healing which was demonstrated, (as reflected on these two sites) present an overwhelming argument; contesting the ‘theory’ that man evolved from a lesser ‘ape-like’ creature... over which, by the way, man has dominion, (according to the scriptures I presented) and in reality. No-where in the Word of God does it imply that the theory that you promote is conducive to Christian faith... and in addition, the prophet of God, (whose ministry was vindicated by these miracles) also rejected that theory as a lie of the devil; and the God who dispensed His Word and power through His prophet never, ever corrected him nor did He inspire him to teach the ‘theory’ of evolution. Now that really is compelling; (meaning - tending to persuade by forcefulness of argument) My question to you now is, “Are you in any way prepared to be persuaded by compelling argument – and return to the unadulterated Christian faith or are you content to spend your time contesting that ‘THE MISSING LINK’ will one day raise it’s ugly head so you can rejoice and jeer at Christians...saying I told you so?” It isn’t going to happen! Let’s see why...

GENESIS 3:1

1 ¶ Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall noteat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is inthe midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6 ¶ And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took ofthe fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
9 ¶ And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
11 ¶ And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
14 ¶ And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this,thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thoushalt bruise his heel.
16 ¶ Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.


Now, we are not talking about a snake hanging in a tree chatting up Eve. Nor are we talking about the said ‘snake’ convincing Eve to bite into an apple, plum or an apricot. Are we talking about a ‘speaking snake’? No! We are speaking about a a creature that walked upright and could communicate with mankind; and was eventually cursed to 'go on it's belly'. Are we talking about a fruit that has a chemical element that allows a man and woman to suddenly perceive that they are naked? If so, lets pass the fruit around! What was it in the fruit that made Eve pregnant? No! We are talking about the most subtil beast among God's creation; the ‘closest inlineage to man’... your missing link - the creature you are trying to find to convince us that we evolved from it. Not so! His sperm was able to procreate with the woman’s egg as it was also able to procreate with the species linked just below him. Here is your missing link! You don’t encounter him today because he was cursed to slither on his stomach and to eat the dust of the field all the days of his life; hence the snake. The remnants of the original ‘beast’ may well be lying in the dirt somewhere... but there are none to be found since the fall of man.

---Quote---

My dear friends, I can refer you to thousands ofsuchdemonstration of the ‘Creativepower of God ---End Quote---

There are two more reliable sources. His word in Scripture, and what St. Paulmentions:

*

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him, from thecreation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things thatare made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable. *


These will guide you right. The ideas and doctrines of men, not so much.

My brother, your bible misinterprets the original Antioch scriptures leaving your reference out of context. If you’d spend just a 10th. of the time 'you spend on this thread' investigating the corruption of the modern Bibles and how they seek to deny the deity of Jesus, while endeavouring to create confusion regarding the ‘Godhead’; you would eventually find yourself in good stead... and you may well begin to understand the Bible and thereby renew your faith. See the context below.

ROMANS 1:20
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: <-(St. Bernard - that’s a colon)
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, (St. Bernard – Hey!What’s changed? History repeats itself... doesn’t it)
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie,and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness,f ornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding,covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, (St. Bernard – unrelenting) unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

The Lord Bless you!

St. Bernard

 

[Barbarian]

Barbarian are notoriously unedifying. On this point I have no contention... but your motive to maintain such is quiet disconcerting...since your signature identifies you as a ‘christian’ of the Roman Catholic faith. It makes sense to me; but others may find it confusing since the Roman Catholic institution claims to be the ‘mother ‘christian’ Church’. I’m well aware that their dogma allows for the ‘theory’ of evolution to be acceptable within their faith; they also believe that Mary can save them if Jesus won’t,

If you know so little about the Christian faith, (you completely misunderstand who Mary is, for example), why would anyone want to see the rest of it?

 

[St. bernard]

Barbarian are notoriously unedifying. On this point I have no contention... but your motive to maintain such is quiet disconcerting...since your signature identifies you as a ‘christian’ of the Roman Catholic faith. It makes sense to me; but others may find it confusing since the Roman Catholic institution claims to be the ‘mother ‘christian’ Church’. I’m well aware that their dogma allows for the ‘theory’ of evolution to be acceptable within their faith; they also believe that Mary can save them if Jesus won’t,

If you know so little about the Christian faith, (you completely misunderstand who Mary is, for example), why would anyone want to see the rest of it?

ROMANS 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

ACTS 4:10-12
10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

REVELATION 22:18-19
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

I know very well who Mary was. She was the woman who the 11 year old Jesus corrected when she implied that Joseph, (her husband) was His father.
LUKE 2:48-50 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business? And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them. Mary was simply a chosen vessel through which God brought to fruition His sovereign Word seed. Nothing more!

And I also know who the Roman Catholic institution have made her out to be. Try tracing [Mary's origin through Roman paganism] - Google search... Begin here! http://www.albatrus.org/english/religions/pagan/pagan_origin_mary_worship.htm
and then try some more here...
http://www.google.co.za/#hl=en&gs_n....,cf.osb&fp=12ee95906f75c39c&biw=1600&bih=794

 

[Barbarian]

This is clearly not the forum on which to debate your new religion. Check out the other places here, where you could do that.

And here's a tip; if you're less botlike in your behavior, you'll get more attention.

 

[reba]

TOS we all agreed too when signing up for membership.......


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