[_ Old Earth _] Evolution in your lifetime

[reznwerks]

Poaching making China elephants evolve tuskless

Sunday, July 17, 2005 12:03 p.m. ET

BEIJING (Reuters) - Chinese elephants are evolving into an increasingly tuskless breed because poaching is changing the gene pool, a newspaper reported on Sunday.

Five to 10 percent of Asian elephants in China now had a gene that prevented the development of tusks, up from the usual 2 to 5 percent, the China Daily said, quoting research from Beijing Normal University.

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"The larger tusks the male elephant has, the more likely it will be shot by poachers," said researcher Zhang Li, an associate professor of zoology. "Therefore, the ones without tusks survive, preserving the tuskless gene in the species."

Since only male elephants have tusks, there were now four female elephants for each male in China, up from the ideal ratio of two, the paper said.

Similar changes in elephant tusk development and sex ratios have been reported in Africa and India.

http://news.lycos.com/wired/story.asp?s ... Id=1064483

 

[Solo]

.............. and therefore man has originated from a single cell and there is not a creator God. :o

 

[Petrushka]

Ya, this is merely an intraspecies adaptation like the peppered moth, fruit flies, and Darwin's finches.

A tuskless elephant is still an elephant.

 

[SyntaxVorlon]

One wall of ignorance and one goalpost shifter.
Efficient.

 

[Solo]

Choose this day whom you will serve.......God or man.


1 The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel: 2 To know wisdom and instruction, To perceive the words of understanding, 3 To receive the instruction of wisdom, Justice, judgment, and equity; 4 To give prudence to the simple, To the young man knowledge and discretion-- 5 A wise man will hear and increase learning, And a man of understanding will attain wise counsel, 6 To understand a proverb and an enigma, The words of the wise and their riddles.

7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, But fools despise wisdom and instruction. 8 My son, hear the instruction of your father, And do not forsake the law of your mother; 9 For they will be a graceful ornament on your head, And chains about your neck.

10 My son, if sinners entice you, Do not consent. 11 If they say, "Come with us, Let us lie in wait to shed blood; Let us lurk secretly for the innocent without cause; 12 Let us swallow them alive like Sheol, And whole, like those who go down to the Pit; 13 We shall find all kinds of precious possessions, We shall fill our houses with spoil; 14 Cast in your lot among us, Let us all have one purse"-- 15 My son, do not walk in the way with them, Keep your foot from their path; 16 For their feet run to evil, And they make haste to shed blood. 17 Surely, in vain the net is spread In the sight of any bird; 18 But they lie in wait for their own blood, They lurk secretly for their own lives. 19 So are the ways of everyone who is greedy for gain; It takes away the life of its owners.

20 Wisdom calls aloud outside; She raises her voice in the open squares. 21 She cries out in the chief concourses, At the openings of the gates in the city She speaks her words: 22 "How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity? For scorners delight in their scorning, And fools hate knowledge. 23 Turn at my rebuke; Surely I will pour out my spirit on you; I will make my words known to you. 24 Because I have called and you refused, I have stretched out my hand and no one regarded, 25 Because you disdained all my counsel, And would have none of my rebuke, 26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your terror comes, 27 When your terror comes like a storm, And your destruction comes like a whirlwind, When distress and anguish come upon you. 28 "Then they will call on me, but I will not answer; They will seek me diligently, but they will not find me. 29 Because they hated knowledge And did not choose the fear of the Lord, 30 They would have none of my counsel And despised my every rebuke. 31 Therefore they shall eat the fruit of their own way, And be filled to the full with their own fancies. 32 For the turning away of the simple will slay them, And the complacency of fools will destroy them; 33 But whoever listens to me will dwell safely, And will be secure, without fear of evil." Proverbs 1:1-33

 

[MrVersatile48]

Appropriate thread title, as I was born in the key 1948..

..the same year as the oft-prophesied rebirth of Israel, which signalled the start of this climax generation of history

Also the year of the Daniel 7 revived Roman Empire - prophesied to crush, trample & devour victims till the Ancient of Days crushes it

EEC founding father, Monet - as many EU leaders since - trumpetted fanfares of revived Roman Empire (as did Ted Heath)

Relevance to topic, do you ask?

All thru my life, the rallying cry of social Darwinism was the promise that human science & wisdom would soon usher in Utopia - as in the '60s hit, (This is the dawning of the) Age of Aquarius - "when peace will rule the planets & love will steer the stars"

But the hippy Flower Power era was what the Bible calls a "great delusion"

As is New Age - merely forbidden ancient occult, spin-doctored "to deceive
even the elect"

Post 9/11 mankind is clearly on the road to Armageddon

& all that is the opposite of evolution - it's degeneration, as described in Romans 1:18/32

To end this post on the true definition of evolution, we need to remember that evolutionists change their definitions regularly, & are calling any kind of change "evolution" - as Petrushka pointed out

If Darwin drivel were true, the differences between so-called adjacent steps on his so-called ladder would be as tiny as those between the adjoining frames of a movie

The plain fact that we can so clearly distinguish between species shows that there are millions of missing links - between each supposed stage

& proves that each & every species was Designer-made by the Most Brilliant Brain ever

Neo Darwinism is an unscientific philosophy, falsely presented as proven fact

Its building blocks are mutations - but every observed mutation is a loss of genetic information - not a gain: it is detrimental & quickly corrected, not beneficial & continued

1 of the most established laws of science, the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, shows that all things, left to themselves, tend to decay, not to improve

The very formation & preservation of fossils demanded the cataclysmic pressure of the global flood of Genesis 6 - which also fits the order of starta of Earth's crust, from heaviest rocks at the bottom to lightest soils at the top, say oceanographers & hydrologists

In fact, hundreds of top scientists, from astronomers to micro-biologists, have seen so much evidence of Intelligent Design that they have decried atheistic brainwashing & now worship the Almighty Creator

See http://www.creationism.org & http://www.discovery.org/csc for comprehensive menus of learned articles & features from PhD/MSc-level scientists

As at http://www.AnswersInGenesis.org - who publish Creation magazine - I recently read their Refuting Evolution 2 by Dr Jonathan Sarfati, & their Revised Extended Answers Book by him & 3/4 other leaders of AiG

Many members may now have read the new 16-page "Design Revolution" magazine from New Life Publications, Nottingham - advertised in many evangelical mags since March - inspired by enthusiastic response to last Oct/Nov UK "Darwin Revisited" tour by Prof Philip Johnson & Dr Adrian Snelling, arranged by Elim Pentecostal churches

God bless!

Ian

 

[sheseala]

Re: Appropriate thread title, as I was born in the key 1948.

..All thru my life, the rallying cry of social Darwinism was the promise that human science & wisdom would soon usher in Utopia - as in the '60s hit, (This is the dawning of the) Age of Aquarius - "when peace will rule the planets & love will steer the stars"

Well good thing social Darwinism has little to do with evolution.

If Darwin drivel were true, the differences between so-called adjacent steps on his so-called ladder would be as tiny as those between the adjoining frames of a movie.

The plain fact that we can so clearly distinguish between species shows that there are millions of missing links - between each supposed stage

Then what are ring species? One species or two?
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/libra ... 52_05.html

Missing links aren't called that if they've been found.

Its building blocks are mutations - but every observed mutation is a loss of genetic information - not a gain: it is detrimental & quickly corrected, not beneficial & continued

Ah but there are benificial mutations. There's bacteria that digest nylon now.

Please define information. A duplication error followed by a point mutation leads to an increase in the code. There's always a small chance of it being benificial. Is this an increase in information?

1 of the most established laws of science, the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, shows that all things, left to themselves, tend to decay, not to improve

I do not think you know what that law means. Name one heat process required in evolution that decreases entropy.

The very formation & preservation of fossils demanded the cataclysmic pressure of the global flood of Genesis 6 - which also fits the order of starta of Earth's crust, from heaviest rocks at the bottom to lightest soils at the top, say oceanographers & hydrologists

Yes, but the fossils are not hydrodynamically sorted. Also if you check out some local geology, well at least in my area, that isn't always true. Well the soils are on top, but the rocks aren't layered by density. Also, why is it we sometimes find particulate rock sandwiched inbetween precipitates? How does a flood do that?

In fact, hundreds of top scientists, from astronomers to micro-biologists, have seen so much evidence of Intelligent Design that they have decried atheistic brainwashing & now worship the Almighty Creator

Ooh I want names. There's a list of scientitst who support evolution, that's up to 500 or so, and they are all named Steve.

You also seem to think that christianity and evolution are mutually exclusive, well they aren't. The Bible was meant to describe things of a spiritual nature and not be a science textbook.

 

[Solo]

Nice post MrVersatile48.
When science agrees with the God of creation, what a fabulous observation of truth it is. When science disagrees with the God of creation, the observance is filled with a rebelliousness that swells the pride of man feeding his unbelief.

Faith, hope and love are mentioned as the three greatest characteristics of man with love being the greatest. Love is the greatest because it never dies, while Faith and Hope will cease when Jesus returns. At that time the unbelieving will hide in terror from the wrath of a righteous, just God.
Michael

 

[Late_Cretaceous]

Of course, you do realize that evolutionary thoery does not equate with athiesm.

Yes it is possible to accept the scientific reality to evolution and the existance of God. THe vast majority of christians in the world do you see.

EVOLUTION IS NOT ATHIESM

For centuries christians have learned to accept scientific evidence and change thier literal beliefs in the bible - without losing faith in God.

A few centuries ago most christians believed the earth was not a sphere, and was fixed in place and rested on pillars - because it said so in the bible. Not to long ago, christians believed that epilepsy was caused by demons and not by abberant electrical activity in the brain. Now, most christians accept the scientific evidence for these things. There is just a small minority that resists acceptance of evolutionary theory because they believe that it will shake thier already weak faith.

I ask you biblical literalists. How much of the bible do you really take literally, and how much do you recognize as being symbolism or metaphor? And did christians 1000 years ago interpret these passages literally, or figuratively.

 

[Solo]

Do all atheists believe in evolution or God?

Darwin became an atheist, or at least an agnostic, in his journey towards evolution. Many evolutionists deny God the creator. Christians that believe in evolution over creation as recorded in Genesis do not take the Bible as the literal word of God. There are millions of Christians that deny evolution as a truth pertaining to the origins of man.

Christianity is the founder of scientific discovery in the west. This basis of science was due to the literal interpretation of God's word. Much of your post is a regurgitation of skeptical analysis of the Bible and its teachings. Little if any of your post is based on fact. True science will never contradict with the Bible. If science contradicts with the Bible, then the science is faulty.

Are there demons that cause sickness? Can science observe the spiritual realm? Is there an enemy called satan? What portion of Jesus teachings in the Bible are literal, and which portions of Jesus' teachings are figurative? Does Jesus define his figurative parables from his literal teachings? Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your savior? Why or Why not?

You might want to go through the Bible and make notes as to which portions you deem are literal and which portions you deem as figurative. The Bible is pretty clear of the portions which are literal and figurative.

I have been a student of Biology, Chemistry, Physics, and Natural Science through High School and College with a 3.5 gpa, and have yet to have anyone prove evolution as fact. All of the "facts" of evolution taught to me in HS and College have been proven to be hoaxes or misinterpreted information. After High School and College, I became a Christian, and creation science is so much more reputable and in line with God's word than evolution will ever be.

 

[Sleeker]

I have been a student of Biology, Chemistry, Physics, and Natural Science through High School and College with a 3.5 gpa, and have yet to have anyone prove evolution as fact.

With all that education, you should know that nobody can ever prove a theory...

All of the "facts" of evolution taught to me in HS and College have been proven to be hoaxes or misinterpreted information. After High School and College, I became a Christian, and creation science is so much more reputable and in line with God's word than evolution will ever be.

Funny. The only creation evidence I've found has turned out to be hoaxes, mininterpreted information, lies, and half-truths.

 

[Solo]

I have been a student of Biology, Chemistry, Physics, and Natural Science through High School and College with a 3.5 gpa, and have yet to have anyone prove evolution as fact.

With all that education, you should know that nobody can ever prove a theory...

All of the "facts" of evolution taught to me in HS and College have been proven to be hoaxes or misinterpreted information. After High School and College, I became a Christian, and creation science is so much more reputable and in line with God's word than evolution will ever be.

Funny. The only creation evidence I've found has turned out to be hoaxes, mininterpreted information, lies, and half-truths.

Then you should stay with evolution over the Bible until God changes your mind, if you'll let him. Modern day science will continue to teach you a humanistic version of origins. I am convinced that evolution has no scientific foundation, and I believe that God's word is foundational truth for all man's questions.

 

[peace4all]

mot all atheists are evolutionists.

But here is the deal.
most atheists are atheists, because they depend on facts. If you can prove something, th ebeliefs will change. When peopel can prove, o rbe 99% positive of something, an atheist will believe it , over something that is "magic" and impossible in any real sense.


When you can have something that is possible, with out requiring magic, it is easier to believe than somethign that would require magic to exist.

 

[Sleeker]

Just because most athiests are evolutionists, doesn't mean evolution is part of athiesm. All Dutch people are part white, but that doesn't mean all white people are part Dutch.

Then you should stay with evolution over the Bible until God changes your mind, if you'll let him.

I'm Christian. I'm a Roman Catholic evolutionist.

Modern day science will continue to teach you a humanistic version of origins.

Because they can't prove or gather data from outside, supernatural powers.

I am convinced that evolution has no scientific foundation, and I believe that God's word is foundational truth for all man's questions.

Evolution has quite a bit of scientific foundation, as long as you don't have the notion beforehand that everything that supports evolution is automatically wrong, which is often the case for creationist, especially the YEC's.

 

[Late_Cretaceous]

I too am a Roman Catholic

Here is what the Vatican's Astronomer has to say about evolution:

..The Vatican’s chief astronomer, George Coyne, has rebuffed controversial comments made by Cardinal Christoph Schönborn in The New York Times on 7 July that evolution is incompatible with a belief in God.

“The waters have again been darkened†writes Coyne in the latest issue of the UK Catholic weekly, The Tablet... In his article, Schönborn dismissed as “rather vague and unimportant†a statement made by Pope John Paul II in 1996 which seemed to indicate the church’s acceptance of evolution. “Any system of thought that denies or seeks to explain away the overwhelming evidence for design in biology is ideology, not science,†Schönborn wrote.

But Coyne, a Jesuit priest from the US, slammed these comments. He writes that the “nagging fear†that a universe explained by scientific concepts “escapes God’s dominion†is “groundlessâ€Â.

He calls for an extensive dialogue. “But we should not close off the dialogue and darken the already murky watersby fearing that God will be abandoned if we embrace the best of modern science,†he urges.

 

[Solo]

The belief in evolution requires as much or more faith as believing that God created the physical realm just as stated in Genesis. Those who believe that they are Christians or those that are Christians who accept evolution have sold out to the enemy's humanistic delusion. They have accepted a faulty science instead of a literal rendition of creation by God's word.

All can believe what they want, and those that have been against God's word will weep and gnash their teeth at the end.

There is only smoke and mirror trickery in the theory of evolution. Even evolution scientists who are familiar with evolution have made claims of the lacking of evidence for their pet theory. Creation scientists have proven a young earth, but the evolution crowd would be shown to have their pants around their ankles and their way of life would be over, so they argue philosophically and ridicule any non-evolutionary claim without scientific backing. Liars are liars, and will be manifested as such one day.

One question that comes to my mind continually in the debate with pseudo-scientists is; How can science be so sure of the entire realm of possibilities when it can not observe the spiritual realm. All that science can observe is the physical realm, and it is observed by fallen, biased humans who may have preconceived direction based on selfish, personal outcomes.

As for me, I'll believe the literal word of God where it is meant to be literal, and the metaphorical word of God where it is meant to denote parabolic teachings. Science has never proved the word of God wrong, however, the word of God will prove science wrong everytime there is a contradiction.

To the Roman Catholic crowd that has responded..........Who is to be believed more......God's Word or the Pope?
Do you really believe that the Pope is taking the place of Jesus until his return?
Is Mary waiting to be resurrected, or has she been miraculously raised by herself into heaven?
Are all believers saints or just the ones that the RCC deems as saints?
Why do RCC pray to saints when Jesus taught us how to pray directly to God?
Are all RC saved and going to heaven? If so, how?
Who is the one that believers are told is their advocate with the Father?

 

[Late_Cretaceous]

Well, I guess I will see you in hell then.

Oh, and thanks for getting the speck out of my eye, are you sure you don't need a hand with the plank in yours?

 

[Solo]

Well, I guess I will see you in hell then.

Oh, and thanks for getting the speck out of my eye, are you sure you don't need a hand with the plank in yours?

And you will be going to hell because of why?

PS The plank was removed from my eye at the moment the holy Spirit came to dwell within me after I repented from the worldly ways and believed in Jesus Christ as my redeemer. I am glad that I could help remove the speck from your eye. Are there any other areas that I could help you with? Perhaps saving you from hell?

 

[Sleeker]

I too am a Roman Catholic

Here is what the Vatican's Astronomer has to say about evolution:

That's interesting for Pope Pius XII said something interesting in Human Generis:

"The Church does not forbid that… research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter."

And then Pope John Paul II said:

"In his encyclical Humani Generis, my predecessor Pius XII has already affirmed that there is no conflict between evolution and the doctrine of the faith regarding man and his vocation… Today, more than a half-century after the appearance of that encyclical, some new findings lead us toward the recognition of evolution as more than an hypothesis. In fact it is remarkable that this theory has had progressively greater influence on the spirit of researchers, following a series of discoveries in different scholarly disciplines...the convergence in the results of these independent studies which was neither planned nor sought constitutes in itself a significant argument in favor of the theory."

The belief in evolution requires as much or more faith as believing that God created the physical realm just as stated in Genesis.

Not really.

Those who believe that they are Christians or those that are Christians who accept evolution have sold out to the enemy's humanistic delusion.

Or maybe we are more open-minded and just have a different interpretation of Genesis.

They have accepted a faulty science instead of a literal rendition of creation by God's word.

Yet I haven't seen any proof to show that evolution is faulty science.

Even evolution scientists who are familiar with evolution have made claims of the lacking of evidence for their pet theory.

Any proof that backs that up that isn't quote mining?

Creation scientists have proven a young earth

I must've missed the memo. How exactly is it proven? Although, no theory can ever be proven.

Liars are liars, and will be manifested as such one day.

That works both ways.

One question that comes to my mind continually in the debate with pseudo-scientists is; How can science be so sure of the entire realm of possibilities when it can not observe the spiritual realm.

The thing is, science is only deals with the realm of possibilities without supernatural intervention. They have never tried to deal with God, for God can make anything do anything.

All that science can observe is the physical realm, and it is observed by fallen, biased humans who may have preconceived direction based on selfish, personal outcomes.

Fallen? How can you say they are fallen? Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they have fallen. And also, all humans are biased. Creation "scientists" are very biased towards creation, and have preconceived direction based on self, personal outcomes. It has to match the Bible.

Normal science, on the other hand, is based just off the facts. If the facts point away from a theory, the theory will lose support. It's a self-correcting system.

To the Roman Catholic crowd that has responded..........Who is to be believed more......God's Word or the Pope?

God's Word, yet that can be interpretated in many different ways. If the Pope then says an interpretation is fine, then I will believe it.

Do you really believe that the Pope is taking the place of Jesus until his return?
Is Mary waiting to be resurrected, or has she been miraculously raised by herself into heaven?
Are all believers saints or just the ones that the RCC deems as saints?
Why do RCC pray to saints when Jesus taught us how to pray directly to God?
Are all RC saved and going to heaven? If so, how?
Who is the one that believers are told is their advocate with the Father?

Doctrinal attacks against Roman Catholics do not go into this forum...

Are there any other areas that I could help you with? Perhaps saving you from hell?

For being Christian, you certainly are being rather insulting to everyone.

 

[Solo]

I too am a Roman Catholic

Here is what the Vatican's Astronomer has to say about evolution:

That's interesting for Pope Pius XII said something interesting in Human Generis:

"The Church does not forbid that… research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter."

And then Pope John Paul II said:

"In his encyclical Humani Generis, my predecessor Pius XII has already affirmed that there is no conflict between evolution and the doctrine of the faith regarding man and his vocation… Today, more than a half-century after the appearance of that encyclical, some new findings lead us toward the recognition of evolution as more than an hypothesis. In fact it is remarkable that this theory has had progressively greater influence on the spirit of researchers, following a series of discoveries in different scholarly disciplines...the convergence in the results of these independent studies which was neither planned nor sought constitutes in itself a significant argument in favor of the theory."

The belief in evolution requires as much or more faith as believing that God created the physical realm just as stated in Genesis.

Not really.

Yes, really.

[quote:0e339]Those who believe that they are Christians or those that are Christians who accept evolution have sold out to the enemy's humanistic delusion.

Or maybe we are more open-minded and just have a different interpretation of Genesis.
There is no private interpretation of Scripture, only that of the holy Spirit. I would suggest that all that believe in evolution as the origin of man, evaluate whether they have the holy Spirit teaching them.

They have accepted a faulty science instead of a literal rendition of creation by God's word.

Yet I haven't seen any proof to show that evolution is faulty science.
Perhaps you have not investigated evolution from the perspective that it could be a lie

Even evolution scientists who are familiar with evolution have made claims of the lacking of evidence for their pet theory.

Any proof that backs that up that isn't quote mining?Kind of like your first quote of Pope Pius XII and John Paul II?

Creation scientists have proven a young earth

I must've missed the memo. How exactly is it proven? Although, no theory can ever be proven.
Many scientific studies have been performed that conclude a young earth, however, the worldly powers that hold evolution near and dear refuse to teach, publish, or investigate these studies since it would destroy the delusion that satan has set up that denies the truth of God's word.

Liars are liars, and will be manifested as such one day.

That works both ways.
God never lies. Satan is the father of all lies. Choose you this day whom you will serve.

One question that comes to my mind continually in the debate with pseudo-scientists is; How can science be so sure of the entire realm of possibilities when it can not observe the spiritual realm.

The thing is, science is only deals with the realm of possibilities without supernatural intervention. They have never tried to deal with God, for God can make anything do anything.Then science is lacking when describing the creation of God, and God's Word should be held higher than any scientific observation, especially when the two contradict.

All that science can observe is the physical realm, and it is observed by fallen, biased humans who may have preconceived direction based on selfish, personal outcomes.

Fallen? How can you say they are fallen? Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they have fallen. And also, all humans are biased. Creation "scientists" are very biased towards creation, and have preconceived direction based on self, personal outcomes. It has to match the Bible.

Normal science, on the other hand, is based just off the facts. If the facts point away from a theory, the theory will lose support. It's a self-correcting system.All humans are fallen in Adam, and their nature is rebellious towards God. That is why Jesus taught repentance and belief. The difference between evolutionary science and creation science is that they both subscribe to different gods. Creation science subscribes to the physical realm as being created, and evolution subscribes to a process apart from a creator. You speak volumes in your sentence that prescribes that creation scientists are biased and have preconceived direction based on self, personal outcomes, "It has to match the Bible." Too bad that isn't the foundation of all science, as the Bible is the Word of the one who Created everything. Your position is weak and lacking.

To the Roman Catholic crowd that has responded..........Who is to be believed more......God's Word or the Pope?

God's Word, yet that can be interpretated in many different ways. If the Pope then says an interpretation is fine, then I will believe it.You have a time with interpretation. You will accept your own, the popes, or others (evolutionists) over the one single right interpretation of the holy Spirit. Too bad. By the way, the Word of God is infallible, while the pope is just a man, fallible. History has proven that fact.

Do you really believe that the Pope is taking the place of Jesus until his return?
Is Mary waiting to be resurrected, or has she been miraculously raised by herself into heaven?
Are all believers saints or just the ones that the RCC deems as saints?
Why do RCC pray to saints when Jesus taught us how to pray directly to God?
Are all RC saved and going to heaven? If so, how?
Who is the one that believers are told is their advocate with the Father?

Doctrinal attacks against Roman Catholics do not go into this forum...You call this a doctrinal attack, I call it questions into what you believe as being false doctrine or correct doctrine according to the Word of God. It seems that you are lacking unless the RC Church tells you what to think.

Are there any other areas that I could help you with? Perhaps saving you from hell?

For being Christian, you certainly are being rather insulting to everyone.
I have been in a daily battle with the father of lies since my salvation, and it is simple to see the lies of the evil one permeate the institutions of the world. Only the called out ones are believers, and they exist apart from any man-made institution. The RCC has many paganistic practices that you would be aware of if you studied God's word. Read Foxes Book of Martyrs.
[/quote:0e339]