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[_ Old Earth _] Evolution in your lifetime

I think it is a myth that Roman Catholics pray to saints. I went to catholic school all my life and was never taught this practice or introduced to it. I have heard of catholics praying to saints, of course, but it it not actively taught as far as I have experienced. I never agreed with it anyways, and always regarded it as more of a cultural phenomenon.


I suppose I am damned to hell for accepting evolutionary theory.

Didn't Jesus teach us to be humble and not boastful or prideful?
 
I think it is a myth that Roman Catholics pray to saints as part of a standard religious practice. I went to catholic school all my life and was never taught this practice or introduced to it. I have heard of catholics praying to saints, of course, but it it not actively taught as far as I have experienced. I never agreed with it anyways, and always regarded it as more of a cultural phenomenon.


I suppose I am damned to hell for accepting evolutionary theory.

Didn't Jesus teach us to be humble and not boastful or prideful?
 
Solo... (as in Han?)

Yes, really.

No. Not Really.

See, we can go back and forth all day. Saying something doesn't make it true. Me saying evolution is the best explanation for life on earth doesn't make it true....but the evidence does.

There is no private interpretation of Scripture, only that of the holy Spirit. I would suggest that all that believe in evolution as the origin of man, evaluate whether they have the holy Spirit teaching them.

The fact that there are thousands of Christian demoninations prove you wrong. They can't all be right, so some must be wrong.

Why are you so confident that your "non-private" interpretation is correct and others is wrong...don't they feel the same way about you?

Perhaps you have not investigated evolution from the perspective that it could be a lie

Evolution is not a theory you hold on to for salvation. It is a theory that you agree with because it offers the best explantion for the diversity of life on the planet, as well as where humans came from.

Lie is a strong word. Inaccurate would be better, should it later be proven to be wrong. However, at this point the theory appears sound based on the vast majority of evidence.

Yes, it continues to get tweaked....but all science (including the type that created that computer you are typing on) gets tweaked. That's what keeps scientists busy....investigating and refining others' work.

Many scientific studies have been performed that conclude a young earth, however, the worldly powers that hold evolution near and dear refuse to teach, publish, or investigate these studies since it would destroy the delusion that satan has set up that denies the truth of God's word.

If a young earth has been proven in your eyes, you have no faith in God.

If you have proof, you have no faith. Paul would be disappointed in you.

As for your contention that science is conspiring to hide the truth....how come no traditional scientists that have converted to creationists science have ever verified that claim? At best they say that mainstream science is lacking more information...I have never heard one make the claim of a vast coverup...even though they were educated and employed in that environment.

If you claim was true, some of those creationist scientists would verify it...they haven't to my knowledge.

Then science is lacking when describing the creation of God, and God's Word should be held higher than any scientific observation, especially when the two contradict.

So what you think(based on what you read translated from a variety of differently languages handed down from multiple authors over hundreds of years and recopying) is more important that what you can directly observe and verify?

It that is true, that God is indeed cruel.

All humans are fallen in Adam, and their nature is rebellious towards God. That is why Jesus taught repentance and belief. The difference between evolutionary science and creation science is that they both subscribe to different gods. Creation science subscribes to the physical realm as being created, and evolution subscribes to a process apart from a creator. You speak volumes in your sentence that prescribes that creation scientists are biased and have preconceived direction based on self, personal outcomes, "It has to match the Bible." Too bad that isn't the foundation of all science, as the Bible is the Word of the one who Created everything. Your position is weak and lacking.

No different god. God is irrelevant to evolution.

Evolution is a process...nothing more. It explains how life appears to have arisen.

Science (Newton) tells us how fast a rock falls if you drop it. It, as yet, has no clear theory on WHY the gravitational acceleration works at the rate it does.

Similarly, evolution tells us how life evolves. It has does not attempt to explain where the first life form came from or anything else.

The two are the same...they are both explanations of processes based on observation. Don't read too much into it, or else you won't believe that at rock falls at a certain rate either.

You have a time with interpretation. You will accept your own, the popes, or others (evolutionists) over the one single right interpretation of the holy Spirit. Too bad. By the way, the Word of God is infallible, while the pope is just a man, fallible. History has proven that fact.

"Single right interpretation"?

Have you ever met one person who agreed with you on every single theological, moral, interpretative and religous question? Someone who interpreted every single verse of the bible exactly in context to how you have? Since you have been saved and received the spirit, are you telling me that your viewpoints and theological interpretations can always been the same?

I very highly doubt the answer to those three questions is yes.

Thousands of demoninations and the fact that this website exists with debates among Christians proves that no one can claim the single right interpretation.

I have been in a daily battle with the father of lies since my salvation, and it is simple to see the lies of the evil one permeate the institutions of the world. Only the called out ones are believers, and they exist apart from any man-made institution. The RCC has many paganistic practices that you would be aware of if you studied God's word. Read Foxes Book of Martyrs.

Men wrote the book you call the bible.

A Man-made institution decided the books in your bible.

If you believe in the rapture, you believe in something a man brought forward 1700 years into christianity.

Since you say you are in a daily battle, how do you know you are winning? How do you know Satan is not the one who has inspired you?

Seems to me, if you are that confident, it seems to be fairly indicative of exactly how Satan would make you feel about something.
 
Let me start off, by saying we have many people upon this earth who refuse to give God the credit for Creation. They say that the first 11 chapters of Genesis is a bunch of junk. And they say that about the rest of the Bible too. The first 11 chapters of Genesis is one of the most controversial chapters in the Bible. The secular scientist go up against it, as well as Christians who are divided in their interpretations of these chapters. This is God's record for man on the beginning of things. Take the first 3 words of Genesis, In The Beginning, Which is from the Hebrew word "Bereshith" which means in the beginning. It was a custom of the Jews to designate a book by its opening word. Now when it was translated into the Greek it was given the word Genesis which means "beginnings" or "origins". Secular man is blind. He just can't except the fact that the earth came into being by a special creation. So the natural man says that everything came about by chance through billions of years. Oh and let me slip this in there if you have a problem with the first 3 words of the Bible. You will have a problem with the rest of the Bible.
Science cannot explain creation because creation is a miracle. Miracles have no place in the realm of science, so the first 11 chapters of Genesis is garbage to them. And that is just how they view it as garbage.
 
The Theory of Evolution

In accepting the theory of evolution, we are asked to accept as
fact many other theories. Evolution is not one theory, but a complex
series of theories. It is based upon many preconceived `facts`. Any time
someone begins piling theory upon theory, the stack of theories becomes
like a chain. The failure of any one theory can easily nullify the
others.
In `believing` in evolution, we are asked to believe that all of
the different forms of life on earth began from a `primeval soup`. No
one knows where this `soup` was, or what happened to it. No one can say
what happened to suddenly bring forth life from the `soup`.
What evidence is there to prove or disprove the theory of
evolution? Is evolution a workable explanation for the origin of life
on the planet Earth? The purpose of this paper is to present the
evidence showing the many misleading `facts` often presented as `proof`
that evolution is an undeniable `fact`.
---------
This paper is divided into two parts. The first part is a
collection of statements from a file that I downloaded from a BBS.

The second part is a paraphrased dialogue from a study of
evolution made by a personal friend of mine. He is represented only by
his initials. I have permission to quote from his dialogue. It is
paraphrased because his lecture covered a time period of three hours.
Therefore I have removed portions of it in the cause of brevity. To
reproduce it all would probably create a file that is too large.
My friend desires no publicity or material gain for his efforts.
Neither do I. I offer this file as public domain. My incentive is that I
feel the public has been grossly misinformed as to the validity of the
theory of evolution.
Some topics were present in both papers, thus I have paraphrased
to avoid redundancy. As for credentials, I have none for the author of
part one, although he or she is obviously an educated person. As for my
friend`s credentials, he is a graduate from a major Texas college with a
degree in dentistry. I have known him for more than ten years, and he is
not trying to personally convert anyone to any specific point of view.
He feels that the evidence speaks for itself.
Words that have been capitalized are those that, I feel, demand
emphasis. I am responsible for any added emphasis.








"NOT ONE CHANGE OF SPECIES INTO ANOTHER IS ON RECORD. We cannot
prove that a single species has ever changed."
- Charles Darwin




-------------------------------------------------------
PART ONE
-------------------------------------------------------

The Origin of Life

What is life? Is it just having the right combinations of proteins
in just the right order? Is a man nothing more than a collection of
substances and chemicals that happened to somehow `become alive`?

Evolutionists claim that the process of life was started by some
unknown process, millions (or billions) of years ago. This is the
foundation of the evolutionary theory. Is there proof that this is really
what happened?

One of the greatest weaknesses of evolutionary theory is that there
are too many forms of life to have happened by chance, and the building
blocks of life are too complex to have just somehow `happened`.
Could a cell by chance come into being that "has the DNA
instructions to fill one thousand 600-page books?" (National Geographic).

Examples:

1. Research has shown that the requirements for life are so complex that
chance and even billions of years could not have produced them.

2. Spontaneous generation (the emergence of life from inorganic
materials) has never been observed.

3. Mendel's laws of genetics explain virtually all of the physical
variations that are observed within life categories such as the dog
family. A logical consequence of these laws and their modern day
refinements is that there are limits to such variation.

4. The many similarities between different species do not necessarily
imply a genealogical relationship; they may imply a common Designer.

5. The human body (or the body of any other creature) cannot live
without most internal organs, such as the heart, the lungs, the liver,
et cetera. Remove any of these organs, and the specimen dies. This
implies that the entire body was created at one point in time.

6. Natural selection cannot produce new genes; it only selects among
preexisting characteristics.

7. Mutations are the only proposed mechanism by which new genetic
material becomes available for evolution.

8. Almost all observable mutations are harmful; many are fatal.

9. No known mutation has ever produced a form of life having both
greater complexity and greater viability than its ancestors.

10. Over seventy years of fruit-fly experiments, equivalent to 2700
human generations, give no basis for believing that any natural or
artificial process can cause an increase in either complexity or
viability. No clear genetic improvement has been observed despite the
many unnatural efforts to increase mutation rates. In addition, no `new`
life form has been produced by mutation. No fruit fly `evolved` into a
mosquito or a bee.

11. There is no evidence that mutations could ever produce any new
organs such as the eye, the ear, or the brain.

12. If the earth, early in its alleged `evolution`, had oxygen in its
atmosphere, the chemicals needed for life would have been removed by
oxidation. But if there had been no oxygen, then there would have been
no ozone, and without ozone all life would be quickly destroyed by the
sun's ultraviolet radiation.

13. Two aspects ignored by studies of the origin of life are:

a) The beauty of the different forms of life.

b) The symmetry of virtually all forms of life.

Evolutionary scientists ignore these aspects, primarily because these
two things suggest a Creator. Virtually all recorded mutations produce
malformed, `non-evolutionary` changes in the subject under study.

14. There have been many imaginative but unsuccessful attempts to
explain how just one single protein could form from any of the assumed
conditions of the early earth. The necessary chemical reactions all tend
to move in the direction opposite from that required. Furthermore, each
possible energy source, whether the earth's heat, electrical discharges,
or the sun's radiation, would destroy the protein products millions of
times faster than they could be formed.

15. If, despite the virtually impossible odds, proteins arose by chance
processes, there is absolutely no reason to believe that they could ever
form a self-reproducing, membrane-encased, living cell. There is no
evidence that there are any stable states between the assumed
naturalistic formation of proteins and the formation of the first living
cells. No scientist has ever advanced a testable procedure whereby this
fantastic jump in complexity could have occurred -- even if the universe
were completely filled with proteins, as you will see.

16. The cells of living creatures are enormously complex. Every part
must be present in order for the cell to survive. All the parts have
different `jobs`. It is not illogical to state that if you remove any
one part, the cell cannot survive. This obviously implies that the parts
(ie, the cell membrane, the nucleus, the ribosomes, etc.) had to have
come into being at the same time.

17. Computer-generated comparisons have been made of the sequences of
amino acids that comprise a protein which is common to 47 forms of
animal and plant life. The results of these studies seriously place
the theory of evolution into jeopardy.

18. The genetic information contained in each cell of the human body is
roughly equivalent to a library of 4000 volumes. For chance mutations
and natural selection to produce this amount of information, assuming
that matter and life `somehow` got started, is analogous to continuing
the following procedure until 4000 volumes have been produced:
(a) Start with a meaningful phrase.
(b) Retype the phrase but make some errors and insert
some additional letters.
(c) Examine the new phrase to see if it is meaningful.
(d) If it is, replace the original phrase with it.
(e) If it is not, return to step (b).

To accumulate 4000 volumes that are meaningful, this procedure would
have to produce the equivalent of far more than 10^3000
(10 to the 3000th power) animal offspring. To begin to understand how
large 10^3000 is, realize that the entire universe has `only` about
10^80 atoms in it.

19. Based on present day observations, DNA can only be replicated or
reproduced with the help of certain enzymes. But these enzymes can only
be produced at the direction of DNA. Since each requires the other, a
satisfactory explanation for the origin of one must simultaneously
explain the origin of the other.

20. Amino acids, when found in nonliving matter, come in two
forms that are chemically equivalent; about half can be described as
"right-handed" and half "left-handed" (a structural description -- one
is the mirror image of the other). However, the protein molecules found
in all forms of life, including plants, animals, bacteria, molds, and
even viruses, have only the left-handed variety. The mathematical
probability that chance processes could produce just one tiny protein
molecule with only left-handed amino acids is virtually zero.

21. The simplest form of life consists of 600 different protein
molecules. The mathematical probability that just one molecule could
form by the chance arrangement of the proper amino acids is far less
than 1 in 10^527 (10 to the 527th power). The magnitude of the number
10^527 can begin to be appreciated by realizing that the visible
universe is about 10^28 inches in diameter.

22. There are many instances where quite different forms of life are
completely dependent upon each other. Examples include: fig trees and
the fig gall wasp, the yucca plant and the pronuba moth, many parasites
and their hosts, pollen-bearing plants and the honey-bee family
consisting of the queen, workers, and drones. There are many, many
others. If one member of each interdependent group evolved first (such
as the plant before the animal), the other member could not have
survived. Since all members of the group obviously have survived, they
must have come into existence at essentially the same time.

23. Earthly life forms reproduce after their own kind. Different animals
do not inter-breed. This suggests that each of these life forms were
distinctly created. Cats and dogs do not interbreed to produce `cat-
dogs`. Therefore it is highly unlikely that different life forms were
formed by species interbreeding.

-----------





FOSSIL EVIDENCE

"The vast majority of artists` conceptions are based
more on imagination than on evidence. Artists must create
something between an ape and a man; the older the specimen
is said to be, the more apelike they make it."

-- Science Digest

1. Stories claiming that primitive, ape-like men have been found are
overstated. Piltdown man was an acknowledged hoax. The fragmentary
evidence that constituted Nebraska man was a pig's tooth. The
discoverer of Java man later acknowledged that it was a large gibbon and
that he had withheld evidence to that effect. The `evidence` concerning
Peking man has disappeared. Louis and Mary Leakey, the discoverers of
Zinjanthropus (previously referred to by some as Australopithecus),
later admitted that they were probably apes. Ramapithecus man consists
merely of a handful of teeth and jaw fragments; his teeth are very
similar to those of the gelada baboon living today. For about 100 years
the world was led to believe that Neanderthal man was stooped and ape-
like. Recent studies show that this individual was crippled with
arthritis and probably had rickets. Neanderthal man, Heidelberg man, and
Cro-Magnon man are similar to humans living today. Artists' depictions,
especially of the fleshy portions of the body, are quite imaginative and
are not supported by evidence. Furthermore, the dating techniques are
highly questionable.

2. Many of the world's fossils show, by the details of their
soft fleshy portions, that they were buried before they could decay.
This, together with the occurrence of polystrate fossils (fossils that
traverse two or more strata of sedimentary rock) in Carboniferous,
Mesozoic, and Cenozoic formations, is unmistakable evidence that this
sedimentary material was deposited rapidly -- not over hundreds of
millions of years.

3. Many fossils of modern looking humans have been found deep in rock
formations that are supposedly many millions of years older than
evolutionary theory would predict. These remains are ignored or even
suppressed by evolutionists.

4. The vertical sequencing of fossils is frequently not in the assumed
evolutionary order.

5. Nowhere on the earth can one find the so-called "geologic column."
Even at the Grand Canyon, only a small fraction of this imaginary column
is found.

6. If `evolution` had occurred, the fossil record should show continuous
and gradual changes from the bottom to the top layers and between all
forms of life. Just the opposite is found. Many complex species appear
suddenly in the lowest layers, and innumerable gaps and discontinuities
appear throughout.

7. The vast majority of the sediments, which encase practically all
fossils, were laid down though water.

8. The worldwide fossil record is evidence of the rapid death and burial
of animal and plant life by a flood; it is not evidence of slow change.

9. A `simple' protein consists of about 100 amino acids. How likely
would it be that such a protein could `chain together` by chance? Assume
that we have a `soup` full of amino acids. We want these amino acids to
`link up` at random to form a protein consisting of 100 amino acids.
How many different combinations are there? Suppose there are 20
different amino acids available. If we wanted a chain of two acids there
would be 20 possibilities for the first and 20 for the second - a total
of 20 X 20 = 400 possibilities. For a chain of three acids, there would
be 20 X 20 X 20 = 8000 possibilities.
For a protein consisting of 100 amino acids (a `simple` protein),
there would be 20^100 possibilities. 20^100 is roughly equal to
10^130. Scientists have stated that there may be as many as 10^22 stars
in the observable universe. Let`s be generous and assume there are
1000 times that many. Let`s generously assume that each star has
10 `Earths`; that is, 10 planets that have the conditions necessary
for the support of life.
We will change the water into amino acids (10^46 molecules).
Thus, 10^26 * 10^46 = 10^72 amino acids on all the `earths`.
A year has less than 10^8 seconds for a total of 10^78 chains per
year. Let`s assume that the universe is 100 billion years old. We
would have 10^78 * 10^11 chains formed in all the oceans of amino
acids on all of our `earths` around all our stars, for all the years
that the universe has existed. But we have seen that there are
about 10^130 possibilities. Therefore, the probability of forming
by chance the given protein consisting of 100 amino acids in 10^89
tries is less that 10^89/10^130, which equals 1/10^41, OR,
0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000041. This is, needless
to say, an infinitely small number.

Thus, even if there were 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
`Earths`, instead of just the one Earth, the chances of life emerging on
EVEN ONE of them are bleak, to say the least.
And by the way, we looked at a `simple` protein. The average-
sized protein has 500 amino acids!

10. Detailed studies of various animals have revealed certain physical
equipment and capabilities that cannot be duplicated by the world's best
designers using the most sophisticated technologies. A few examples
include: the miniature and reliable sonar systems of the dolphins,
porpoises, and whales; the frequency modulated radar and discrimination
system of the bat; the efficiency and aerodynamic capabilities of the
hummingbird; the control systems, internal ballistics, and combustion
chambers of the bombardier beetle; and the precise and redundant
navigational systems of many birds and fish. Scientists have `proven`
that it is aerodynamically impossible for a bee to fly. Yet it flies.
The many components of these complex systems could not have evolved in
stages without placing a selective disadvantage on the animal.

11. If sexual reproduction in plants, animals, and humans is a result of
`evolution`, an absolutely unbelievable series of chance events would
have had to occur. First, the complex and completely different
reproductive systems of the male must have completely and independently
evolved at about the same time and place as those of the female. A
slight incompleteness in just one of the two would make both systems
useless, and natural selection would oppose their survival. Second, the
physical and emotional systems of the male and female would also need to
be compatible. Third, the complex products of the male reproductive
system (pollen or sperm) would have to have an affinity for and a
mechanical and chemical compatibility with the eggs from the female
reproductive system. Fourth, the intricate and numerous processes
occurring at the molecular level inside the fertilized egg would have to
work with fantastic precision the very first time it happened --
processes which scientists can only describe in an aggregate sense. And
finally, the environment of the fertilized egg, from conception until it
also reproduces with another sexually capable "brother or sister," would
have to be controlled to an unbelievable degree.
And if these processes did not occur at precisely the right time,
then one must restart this incredible chain of events near zero. The
odds then become so astronomical that they insult the intelligence of
anyone with common sense. The `facts` of evolution are already difficult
enough to believe, without stretching them any further.
Either this series of incredible events occurred by random
processes, or else an Intelligent Designer created sexual reproduction.

------------

WERE THE UNIVERSE, THE SOLAR SYSTEM, THE EARTH, AND LIFE
RECENTLY CREATED?

Naturalistic explanations for the evolution of the solar system and
universe are unscientific and hopelessly inadequate.

According to ALL theories on the evolution of the solar system:

a. The planets should all rotate on their axes in the
same direction; Venus and Uranus rotate `backwards`.

b. All 42 moons of the various planets should revolve in
the same direction; at least 11 revolve `backwards`.

c. The orbits of these 42 moons should all lie in the equatorial
plane of the planet they orbit; many, including the earth's moon,
are highly inclined.

d. The material of the earth (and Mars, Venus, and
Mercury) should almost all be hydrogen and helium --
similar to that of the sun and the rest of the visible universe;
actually much less than 1% of the earth's mass
is hydrogen or helium.

e. The sun should have 700 times more angular
momentum than the planets; the planets have 50 times
more angular momentum than the sun.

1. Detailed analyses indicate that stars could not have formed from
interstellar gas clouds. To do so, either by first forming dust
particles or by a direct gravitational collapse of the gas, would
require vastly more time than the alleged age of the universe. The ONLY
alternative is that stars must have been created.

2. The sun's tidal forces are so strong that dust clouds or gas clouds
lying within the orbit of Jupiter could never condense to form planets.
3. Saturn's rings could not have formed from the disintegration of a
former satellite or from the capture of external material; its particles
are too small and too evenly distributed throughout an orbit that is too
circular.

4. The moon was not torn from the earth, nor did it congeal from the
same material as the earth since the relative abundance of its elements
are too dissimilar from those of the earth. If the moon formed from
particles orbiting the earth, other particles should be easily visible
inside the moon's orbit; none are. The moon's circular, highly inclined
orbit is strong evidence that it was never captured by the earth. If the
moon was not pulled from the earth, was not built up from smaller
particles near its present orbit, and was not captured from outside its
present orbit, only one possibility remains. The moon must have been
created in its present orbit.

5. No scientific theory exists to explain the origin of matter, space,
or time. Since each is intimately related and defined in terms of the
other, a satisfactory explanation for the origin of one must also
explain the origin of the others. Naturalistic explanations have
completely failed.

6. One Postulation of The First Law of Thermodynamics states that the
energy of our universe is constant, or `conserved`. Countless
experiments have shown that regardless of the energy conversion process,
the total amount of energy (or its mass equivalent) remains constant. A
corollary of the First Law is that no energy can be created. Since the
universe obviously has energy, that energy must have been created in the
past when The First Law was not operating. Since the energy of the
universe could not have created itself, Something external must have
created it.

7. Stellar evolution is assumed in estimation the age of stars. These
age estimates are then used to establish a framework for `stellar
evolution`. This is CIRCULAR reasoning.

8. There is NO evidence that galaxies `evolved`.

--------------

IS THE EARTH REALLY AS OLD AS EVOLUTIONISTS SAY IT IS?

1. Any estimated date prior to the beginning of written records must
necessarily assume that the dating clock has operated at a known rate,
that the initial setting of the clock is known, and that the clock has
not been disturbed. These assumptions are not verifiable, and are not
necessarily reliable.

2. A major assumption that underlies all radioactive dating techniques
is that the rates of decay, which have been essentially constant over
the past 70 years, have also been constant over the past 200,000,000
years. This bold, critical, and untestable assumption is made even
though no one knows what causes radioactive decay.

3. The public has been greatly misled concerning the reliability and
trustworthiness of radiometric dating techniques (the Potassium-Argon
method, the Rubidium-Strontium method, and the Uranium-Thorium method).
Many of the published dates can be checked by comparisons with the
assumed ages for the fossils that sometimes bracket radiometrically
dated rock. In over 300 (or almost half) of these PUBLISHED checks, the
radiometrically determined ages were at least one geologic age
in error -- indicating major errors in methodology. An unanswered
question is, "How many other dating checks were not published because
they too were in error?"

4. Pleochroic halos, tiny spheres of discoloration produced by the
radioactive decay of particles that are encased in various crystals,
show that the earth's crust was NEVER in a molten state. Furthermore,
these halos suggest that the rate of radioactive decay was NOT constant,
and in fact, varied by MANY orders of magnitude from that observed
today.

5. Geological formations are almost always dated by their fossil
content, especially by certain INDEX FOSSILS of extinct animals. The
age of the fossil is derived from the ASSUMED evolutionary sequence, but
the evolutionary sequence is based on the fossil record. This reasoning
is CIRCULAR! Furthermore, this procedure has produced many contradictory
results.

6. Human footprints are found alongside dinosaur footprints in the rock
formations of the Paluxy riverbed in Texas. This obviously shows that
man and dinosaurs lived at the same time and the same place. But
evolutionists claim that dinosaurs became extinct about 30 million years
before `man` supposedly began to `evolve`.

7. Many different people have found at different times and places man-
made artifacts encased in coal! Examples include an 8-carat gold chain,
a spoon, a thimble, an iron pot, a bell, and other objects of obvious
human manufacture. Many other "out-of-place artifacts" such as a
metallic vase, a screw, nails, a strange coin, and a doll have been
found buried deeply in solid rock. By evolutionary dating techniques,
these objects would be hundreds of millions of years old; but man
supposedly didn't begin to evolve until 2-4 million years ago. This
casts more doubt on the dating methods used.

8. In rock formations in Utah, Pennsylvania, Missouri, and Kentucky,
human footprints that are supposedly 150-600 million years old have been
found and examined by many different authorities. Obviously, there is a
major error in chronology.

9. The fact that there is no worldwide unconformity in the earth's
sedimentary strata implies that this entire geologic record must have
been deposited rapidly. (An "unconformity" is an erosional surface
between two adjacent rock formations representing a time break of
unknown duration. "Conformities" imply a continuous and rapid
deposition. Since one can always trace a continuous path from the bottom
to the top of the geologic record that avoids these unconformities, the
sediments along that path must have been deposited continuously.)

10. Radiocarbon dating, which has been accurately calibrated by counting
the rings of living trees that are up to 3,500 years old, is unable to
extend this accuracy and date organic remains that are more ancient. A
few people have claimed that ancient wood exists which will permit this
calibration to be extended even further back in time, but these people
have not let outside scientists examine their data. On the other hand,
measurements made at hundreds of sites worldwide indicate that
the concentration of radiocarbon in the atmosphere rose quite rapidly at
some time prior to 3,500 years ago. If this happened, a radiocarbon age
of 40,000 years could easily correspond to a true age of 5,000 years.

-----------

MANY DATING TECHNIQUES SHOW THE EARTH AND SOLAR
SYSTEM TO BE YOUNG

1. Direct measurements of the earth's magnetic field over the past 140
years show a steady and rapid decline in its strength. This decay
pattern is consistent with the theoretical view that there is an
electrical current inside the earth which produces the magnetic field.
If this view is correct, then 25,000 years ago the electrical current
would have been so vast that the earth's structure could not have
survived the heat produced. This would imply that the earth could not be
older than 25,000 years.

2. The atmosphere has less than 40,000 years worth of helium, based on
just the production of helium from the decay of uranium and thorium.
There is no known means by which large amounts of helium can escape from
the atmosphere. The atmosphere appears to be young.

3. The rate at which elements such as copper, gold, tin, lead, silicon,
mercury, uranium and nickel are entering the oceans is very rapid when
compared with the small quantities of these elements already in the
oceans. Therefore, the oceans must be very much younger than a million
years.

4. Evolutionists believe that the continents have existed for at least
1 billion years. However, the continents are being eroded at a rate
that would have leveled them in a relatively short 14 million years.

5. The occurrence of abnormally high gas and oil pressures within
relatively permeable rock implies that these fluids were formed or
encased less than 10,000 years ago. If these hydrocarbons had been
trapped over 10,000 years ago, there would have been leakage which would
have dropped the pressure to a level far below what it is today.

7. There have been no authenticated reports of the discovery of
meteorites in sedimentary material. If the sediments, which have an
average depth of 1 1/2 miles, were laid down over hundreds of millions
of years, many of these steadily falling meteorites should have been
discovered. Therefore, the sediments appear to have been deposited
rapidly; furthermore, since there have been no reports of meteorites
beneath the sediments, they appear to have been deposited recently.

8. Since 1836, over one hundred different observers at the Royal
Greenwich Observatory and U.S. Naval Observatory have made direct visual
measurements which show that the diameter of the sun is shrinking at a
rate of about .1% each century or about 5 feet per hour! Furthermore,
records of solar eclipses indicate that this rapid shrinkage has been
going on for at least the past 400 years. Several indirect techniques
also confirm this gravitational collapse, although these inferred
collapse rates are only about 1/7th as much. Using the most
conservative data, one must conclude that had the sun existed one
million years ago, it would have been so large that it would have heated
the earth so much that life could not have survived. Yet, evolutionists
say that a million years ago all the present forms of life were
essentially as they are now, having completed their `evolution` that
began 200 million years ago.

9. Short period comets "boil off" some of their mass each time they
pass the sun. Nothing should remain of these comets after about 10,000
years. There are no known sources for replenishing comets. If comets
came into existence at the same time as the solar system, the solar
system must be less than 10,000 years old.

10. Jupiter and Saturn are each radiating more than twice the energy
they receive from the sun. Calculations show that it is very unlikely
that this energy comes from radioactive decay or gravitational
contraction. The only other conceivable explanation is that these
planets have not existed long enough to cool off.

11. The sun's gravitational field acts as a giant vacuum cleaner which
sweeps up about 100,000 tons of micrometeorites per day. If the solar
system were just 10,000 years old, no micrometeoroids should remain
since there is no significant source of replenishment. A large disk
shaped cloud of these particles is orbiting the sun. Conclusion: the
solar system is less than 10,000 years old.

12. Stars frequently travel in closely spaced clusters, moving in the
same direction at nearly the same speed. This would not be the case if
they had been traveling for billions of years, because even the
slightest difference in their velocity would cause their dispersal after
such great periods of time.

13. If man and languages `evolved`, the earliest languages should be the
simplest. On the contrary, as one studies languages that are
increasingly ancient, such as Latin (200 B.C.), Greek (800 B.C.), and
Vedic Sanskrit (1500 B.C.), they become INCREASINGLY COMPLEX with
respect to syntax, cases, genders, moods, voices, tenses, and verb
forms. The evidence indicates that languages do not Evolve, they
DEvolve.


-------------------------------------------------------
PART TWO
-------------------------------------------------------
This lecture composed by Dr. L., D.D.S

I request that the reader `pretend` that the material below, being
derived from an audio tape, is entirely enclosed in quotes. I have
not included them because I am not a very good typist, and to have
added them would have required quite a bit more time to put this
information into print.

Also, please forgive me for any typing, spelling, or grammatical
errors that I may have made. Thank you.
-------------------------------------------------------


"I would like to approach the theory of evolution from an academic
standpoint. I have personally paid my dues....as most of you know, I
have a degree of dentistry, which requires a study of many courses in
the biological sciences, in college and dental school, to get that type
of degree.
One of the optional courses I took while going to ------- college
was a course entitled `evolution`. After a creationist-oriented child
and teen years, I went to college, and that`s when I started getting
REALLY smart.
Looking back now, I realize that I had fallen victim to a great deal
of scientific deception.

I want you to know that the theory of evolution looks pretty good if
you look at it from a distance. When you get right down to the `nuts and
bolts` of evolution, it is in deep trouble.
One of the leading scientists of this age has called evolution
`incredible`. The definition of `incredible` is not `amazing`.
`Incredible` literally means `without credibility`. He said that "the
problem is, the only alternative is creation." In effect he meant that
since he `knew` creation is `wrong`, he HAD to believe evolution.
This was not a man making fun of creationism. This is a scientist,
and true scientists all over the world realize that the theory of
evolution is in deep trouble. Yet they cling to it, because to do
otherwise would be to admit the existence of God.
In the 1800`s and in the past, we knew so little about the life
process that scientists could make a case for the theory of evolution.
However, as our knowledge of genetics and the human body as a whole
progressed, facts began emerging that cause the theory of evolution to
be in doubt. The same goes for our knowledge of the universe.

I believe it was Karl Marx that said that `religion is the opiate of
the masses`. In other words he meant that the masses use religion as an
opiate to mollify their existence.
I say that evolution is the opiate of the scientist. I believe that
every person has seen enough evidence to realize that sooner or later
they will come face-to-face with a holy God. In order to pacify their
conscience concerning that inevitable meeting, the scientists have come
up with a theory that, in effect, says `there is no God`. The theory of
evolution basically says that we made ourselves. Creationism says that
a Creator made us.

I went through a stage of theistic evolution, trying to combine
creationism with the theory of evolution, because I had been taught that
the theory of evolution is an absolute law. But I soon learned that the
theory of evolution is totally contrary to the Scriptures.

So I`ve come full circle. We will now explore the theory of
evolution to see `what makes it tick`, to see what the scientific basis
is for the theory of evolution. We will see how sound the foundation is
for the theory of evolution.

We need to differentiate between ORGANIC evolution and INORGANIC
evolution. ORGANIC evolution concerns LIVING matter; INORGANIC means
non-living matter. We will be concerned only with ORGANIC evolution.
There are those that say that the universe `evolved`. That subject would
require a separate study. For now we are concerned only with `organic
evolution.
First, a definition of `evolution`. Simply stated, evolution is the
theory that living matter arose from chemicals.
When I was in college, one of the first laws I was taught was the
`Law of Biogenesis`. This law states that life does NOT arise
spontaneously from non-living materials. Needless to say, the theory of
evolution is in direct conflict with this law. The theory of evolution
says that life emerged spontaneously from dead matter. The origin of the
theory of evolution was, of course, Charles Darwin. He was not the only
scientist who postulated the theory, however. Lamar was another
scientist who was a believer in the theory of evolution.

What is the `motor` that propels the theory of evolution? To
understand the `motor`, we need to discuss the concepts that are
necessary to the theory of evolution.
Those are natural selection, mutations, and lengthy (or epochal)
time periods. We want to look at these things individually, to see
"where the evolutionist is coming from", and to see how steady the
foundation of the theory of evolution is.

NATURAL SELECTION is the tendency of nature to perpetuate the
`survival of the fittest`. It says that as we `evolved` over the
millions of years, the strongest of each of the species has survived,
and have gradually changed into a new and different life-form. It is
also the `natural selection` tendency to eliminate the inferior species,
those unfit to live in a changing world. Natural selection is NOT a
method of `macro mutation`, and we need to differentiate between `macro
mutation` and `micro mutation`.
`MACRO MUTATION` is a major postulate of the theory of evolution.
It says that species are able to `evolve`, and to change into A NEW AND
DIFFERENT SPECIES. Natural Selection is NOT a method of `macro
mutation`.
`MICRO MUTATION` is the ability of members of a given species to
exist in different forms. For instance, a poodle and a saint bernard are
examples of `micro mutation`. They are of course both dogs, but have
different appearances. But you must remember that no matter what the
color, no matter what the size, they are STILL dogs. They are not
`evolving` into horses.
I believe in micro mutations, but I do not believe in macro
mutations. There is simply no evidence whatsoever that macro mutations
have ever produced a more viable life-form.

An example of a micro mutation is the `peppered moth` of the eastern
seaboard. Evolutionists love to say that this moth is `proof` of
evolution, because the color of this moth has changed from light colors
to dark colors over the past several hundred years. They say that since
the trees of that area have darkened in color due to air pollution, the
moth has `evolved` into a darker color to evade their natural predators
by `matching` the color of the tree bark. They neglect to mention that
the moth has changed color for the SAME REASON that the trees have, due
to air pollution and smog. Yet evolutionists point to this as the
`greatest proof` of the theory of evolution ever witnessed.
If this is `evidence` of evolution, I say that they have not
witnessed evolution at all, BECAUSE THEY ARE STILL MOTHS. They still
have the genetic material of a moth.

Thus there are limits to the extent of change within the many
different species. It is amazing how far these limits extend. The
genetic material has variations, but a dog will always be a dog. No dog
has `evolved` into a horse. If one ever did, the theory of evolution
would have at least a reprieve. But no solid evidence of such an
incident exists.

---------

I recently read that if you took one chromosome from a human and
stretched it out, it would be seven feet long. ONE chromosome. It would
be so thin you could not see it even with an electron microscope.
If you took ALL of the chromosomes in the average human body and
stretched them in a chain, they would extend back and forth to the moon
200,000 times. I want you to know that there is an enormous amount of
genetic information in the human body.
If you took the genetic information in your body and entered it into
your computer word processor, it would require enough paper to more than
fill the Grand Canyon.
It takes an enormous amount of information to produce a human from
the sperm and ovary. It takes a gigantic amount of genetic
`instructions` to produce a human.

The theory of evolution says that by mutations, `accidents` can
happen to that instruction bank, and then as that organism grows into
adulthood, that `accident` will produce a `better` life form.
Now, the human body is infinitely more complex than an automobile.
What if, during the construction of an automobile, someone at the
factory changes something? What if they connected a spark plug wire to
the gas tank? What if they miswired the electrical system? What if they
installed the pistons backwards? What if they installed the distributor
where it was not in sequence with the crankshaft? Would the result ever
be an improvement in any of these cases? Of course not.

The same results are produced when genetic material mutates.
Mutations are virtually always detrimental. The results are usually
fatal. Sometimes the subject is merely crippled. Sometimes there is
simply a malformed form of the same creature. But there is NO evidence
of a mutation ever producing a more viable life-form.
Thus we have now discussed both natural selection and mutations.
These, remember, are the cornerstones of the theory of evolution. But
mutations are the only means of producing `evolution` as we know it.

I would like to read an excerpt from a book written by Dr. Walter T.
Brown. Dr. Brown is a retired Colonel from the Air Force, a West Point
graduate, and has a Phd in engineering from the Massachusetts Institute
of Technology. It is my understanding that MIT does not give degrees to
persons who do not have the credentials necessary to obtain one. He has
been a Fellow of the National Science Foundation, and so on.

In his book, Dr. Brown says that "the process of mutation is the
only known source of raw materials of genetic viability, and hence,
evolution." He is quoting here from a man named Theodosus Dzenski [sp],
who is one of the most famous teachers of the theory of evolution.
Dzenski [sp] says, "The mutants which arise are, with rare
exceptions, deleterious to their carriers, at least in the environments
which the species normally arise."
In other words, he is saying that if these mutants are produced in a
laboratory setting, a scientist can sometimes manage to keep them alive.
In the environments where the species normally lives, these mutants
usually die.

A quote from the magazine `Origin of The Species` says, "If we say
that if only by chance the mutants are useful, we are still speaking too
leniently. In general, they are useless, detrimental, or lethal."
Why that quote was in that magazine is a mystery, because if you`re
trying to sell the theory of evolution, that statement is not conducive
to your cause.
--------------

Paul Moorehead has written a book, "Mathematical Challenges to the
Darwinian Interpretation of Evolution." In it, he says he decided "to
find out whether a single amino acid change in a hemoglobin mutation
is known that doesn`t produce a result harmful to the function of that
hemoglobin." He was studying the changes necessary in a hemoglobin to
improve it.
He says, "One is hard put to find such an instance." Yet
evolutionists have taught for years that Alpha Hemoglobin A changed
through mutations into Beta Hemoglobin A.
Mr. Moorehead learned that such a mutation would require A MINIMUM
of 10^120 mutations.
How large is 10^120? There are "only" 10^80 electrons in the entire
universe. Now this man is telling us that it would take 10^120 micro
mutations to change this one hemoglobin? How many of you believe that
evolution accomplished this feat?

To continue this story, scientists say that there is enough room in
the space around an atom so that the electrons of an atom have the same
amount of space as two bees flying in Saint Peter`s Cathedral. Thus
there is a large amount of space between the electrons that orbit around
an atom.
How many electrons do you think you could `pack` into the universe
if you disregarded the electrical repulsion of the electrons? We know
that there are 10^80 electrons, and there is the same amount of space
between electrons as two bees flying in Saint Peter`s Cathedral.
What exponent do we put on the 10 now? The answer is 10^120, the
same as the number of mutations required to change that single
hemoglobin.
The more you think about this comparison, the more you will begin to
realize that the theory of evolution is on shaky ground.

What are some of the mutations present in the human species? Well,
there is albinism, dwarfism, color blindness, and Down`s Syndrome. These
are genetic mutations, the `stuff` that evolutionists say produced
modern man.
How many of those would you like to have? How many of those
mutations have benefitted the people that they happened to?
The motor that drives the theory of evolution is mutations. Yet
there has never been a documented example of a beneficial mutation.

-------------

One of the things we have been pounded with is the amount of time
necessary to allow mutations to produce modern-day species. The
evolutionists are desperately looking for time, because if you can
produce enough time, you can hide the many weaknesses of the theory of
evolution. But eons of time are an absolute necessity, simply because of
the amount of mutations necessary, as we saw a few minutes ago.

There are a number of `clocks` that are used to judge the age of the
universe. We will see whether or not these `clocks` are reliable. We
will see whether or not the universe is really as old as the theory of
evolution postulates.

The first is radio-metric dating. Potassium argon or uranium lead is
used to determine how old something is. Carbon-14 is radioactive carbon.
Carbon normally has 12 electrons, but occasionally a carbon atom has 14
electrons. When it has 14, it is unstable.
If you took ten pounds of Carbon-14 and came back 1,000 years later,
if there was only five pounds of Carbon-14 left, and the rest was
Carbon-12, that is how you would at least theoretically determine the
age of the carbon. If that is over your head, just let it go; but that
is how that `clock` works.
When a creature is alive it of course breathes. Even plants breathe.
Thus Carbon-14 enters the creature or plant. When an animal dies, you
should be able to measure the amount of Carbon-14 remaining in the
specimen and thus to determine the age of that specimen. You should be
able to use a scale to determine how much Carbon-14 it should have had,
and then the specimen`s age should be measurable. This dating method,
incidentally, is only good for organic material, and it is only reliable
for a timespan of about 40,000 years. For a longer period of time,
potassium argon or lead uranium dating must be used. These latter
materials have half-lives (supposedly) in the millions of years.
This is a pretty good theory; we shall now see how shaky its
foundation is.

To make these clocks work, you have to assume that the rate of
radioactive decay is the same today as it has been for the last 40,000
years. However, scientists have recently discovered that the rate of
radioactive decay can be changed, not in tiny amounts, but in
significant amounts. Yet we have been deceived into believing that
radioactive decay is an absolutely steady process. That is not true.
Another necessity for this clock is that the amount of Carbon-14 in
the atmosphere would have to have been the same for the last 40,000
years. How many of you believe that the concentration of C-14 in the
atmosphere 20,000 years ago was the same as it is today? How many of you
believe that it was the same 50 years ago? It wasn`t. We`ve been
measuring it for about 50 years, and it has changed in `only` 50 years.
What does that tell you about the reliability of the Carbon-14 dating
system?
How many of you believe that the concentration of radioactive argon
or potassium is the same as it was two million years ago? That is a very
shaky presumption for the theory of evolution.
The point that I am trying to make is that the `facts` that we have
been bombarded with are not necessarily true. We assume, since a theory
comes from a `distinguished` scientist, it is a law. That is an absolute
falsehood. These `clocks` are NOT as reliable as we have been led to
believe.

A scientist who won the Nobel Peace Prize once said, at a meeting
with other Nobel Prize winners, concerning radio-metric dating, "if it
corroborates our theory and our work, we print it. If it comes close, we
put it in a footnote. If it is contradictory, we don`t mention it at
all."
How`s that for scientific honesty?
A quote from `Common Problems With Radio-Metric Dating`: "The fact
that erroneous results can be and often are derived from radio-metric
dating techniques has been experimentally verified. For instance living
snails have been dated at 2,300 years old by the carbon-dating method."
How many of you believe that a living snail could be 2,300 years
old? Wood from living trees has been dated at being 10,000 years old.
How many of you believe that a tree can live 10,000 years?
Hawaiian lava flows known to be about 200 years old have been dated
by potassium argon dating as being 3,000,000,000 years old.

These scientists would do well to consider the question put to Job
by God: "Where were YOU when I laid the foundation of the earth?"

I have a total of 69 points that indicate a young earth. We will not
have time to cover them all, but I will include as much information as
possible.

-----------

We will now talk about the `clock` of cosmic dust. 14,000,000 tons
of cosmic dust fall on the earth every year. The earth has a good
atmosphere so that this dust could have been dispersed for a long period
of time.
Cosmic dust has a high concentration of nickel in it. Therefore if
this dust has been falling for hundreds of millions of years, we should
be able to find an enormous amount of nickel. We have not. Either the
rate of this dust has changed greatly in the last 50 years, or our world
is not as old as we have been led to believe.
Scientists thought that the lunar lander had to be designed with
large feet. Since there is no atmosphere or rain to disperse this cosmic
dust, considering the supposed age of the moon, the lunar lander might
sink into the dust.
How much did it cost taxpayers to pay for the landing pods on the
lunar module? Remember that the lunar lander had `feet` about six feet
in diameter?
What happened? The dust wasn`t 200,000,000 years thick, was it? It
was about 1/2 an inch deep. What does that point to? A young moon.

How about Niagara Falls? Scientists have measured the erosion rate
of Niagara Falls for more than 100 years. If the North American
continent has existed for as long as evolutionists claim, Niagara Falls
would have eroded itself completely around the world, more than once.
What does that suggest? A young earth.

How about the Mississippi delta? Scientists have studied it for more
than 150 years, because of the concern about flooding of the delta area.
There is a great deal of information about the Mississippi delta. At its
current rate of sedimentation, guess how long it has taken to reach its
present configuration? About 4,000 years.
The delta produces about 300,000,000 cubic yards of sedimentation
into the Gulf of Mexico every year.
You can also look at from the other side. At the current rate of
sedimentation, if the Mississippi delta has existed as long as
evolutionists say it has, it would have filled up the Gulf of Mexico
more than once. What does that suggest? A young earth.

Scientists have discovered that the Earth`s rotational speed is
declining. If the earth is 2,000,000,000 years old, as evolutionists
say it is, and it had been slowing at the present rate, the earth would
have stopped rotating many years ago. Its rotational speed would be
zero.
Looking at this in another light, if you extrapolate the rotational
speed of the earth, and increase it as you go back in time 2,000,000,000
years, it would have been spinning so rapidly that all the continents
would have drifted to the equator, and the earth would have become a
`pancake`. What does this point to? A young earth.

The earth has a population growth of about 1/2 of 1% a year.
Actually this is a very conservative estimate. In actuality, the growth
rate is about twice that much.
How long would take one man and one woman to populate the entire
world at 1/2 its present rate of growth? About 4,000 years.
If you went back in time to the time when evolutionists say that
mankind as we know it began, guess what the population of the earth
would be at 1/2 the present growth rate. The population would be 10^2100
people! You remember that there are `only` 10^80 electrons in the
universe. Remember that if the universe were `packed` with electrons,
there would only be room for 1^120 electrons? That number is NOTHING
compared to 10^2100.
What does this evidence point to? A young earth.

Let`s talk about stars. Our sun produces the energy of about
1,000,000,000 hydrogen bombs per second. By doing that it is converting
the smallest form of atomic elements, hydrogen, and radiating that out
into space. The sun is therefore consuming itself.
There are stars that are 1,000,000 times brighter than our sun. That
means that they are using a phenomenal amount of matter to produce this
much energy, and they are radiating this energy out into space. If you
take the present size of those `superstars`, and extrapolate back
2,000,000,000 years, those stars would have had to be implausibly large
to be the size they are today. In fact, one of them would have had to
have been big enough to occupy almost the entire universe! What does
that suggest? A young universe.
There are many more indicators that suggest a young universe. They
range from the sublime to the absurd. Unfortunately, time does permit me
to cover them all.

-------------

Now let`s consider the demands of creation versus the demands of the
theory of evolution.

First, creation demands the presence of a creator. The theory of
evolution demands the absence of a creator.
Second, creation demands the creation of matter. The theory of
evolution has no explanation for the origin of matter.
Third, as for the time span of the existence of the universe,
creation demands the time span of recorded history. The theory of
evolution demands eons of time, billions of years.
Fourth, creation demands a `spirit world`. That is, the presence of
a `higher power`, one who created this universe and governs its
operation. This `higher power` is the giver of life. The theory of
evolution does not allow for a higher power or a giver of life. The
theory of evolution says life emerged spontaneously from non-living
matter.
Fifth, there is the fossil record. Creation demands a sudden
appearance of life forms in the fossil record. The theory of evolution
says that the fossil record should show the `evolution` of life forms.
The theory of evolution says the fossil record should show species
changing from one life form to another. There should be many, many
examples of this in the fossil record, if all the many life forms we see
today truly `evolved` from the `primeval soup`. We will look in detail
at this subject later.

Now, to consider all of these demands in detail, we will begin with
the first. Since the belief or non-belief in a Creator is a personal
matter, this is something that science cannot measure. It is either yes
or no, depending on what a given person believes.
The creationist has a choice here. Ironically, the evolutionist DOES
NOT HAVE A CHOICE. The creationist can choose to believe in a Creator or
to believe in evolution. The evolutionist MUST believe in evolution,
since he `knows` that there is no Creator.

Secondly, there is the question of the origin of matter. The
creationist believes that a Creator created matter. Where does the
evolutionist say matter came from? Why, it came from the `Big Bang`.
Hold it. I didn`t say, "how did matter come into its present form?". I
said, WHERE DID MATTER COME FROM? The evolutionist might say it
condensed into this big blob before the `Big Bang`. Well, you missed me
again. I asked, `Where did it come from?`. The point is, the
evolutionist has no answer for this question. If matter `condensed`
from energy, as some evolutionists say, where did that energy come from?
The creationist has no problem with this demand. The evolutionist
has MANY problems with this demand.
It is true that the evolutionist could ask, `Where did the Creator
come from?`. That is an area where man`s mind fails, because man cannot
comprehend the actions of the infinite, or the workings of a Being
infinitely greater than man. There are no words to comprehend or
describe a Being so far advanced from us mere mortal beings.
My answer is that their position on creation demands an answer, and
my position does not, because my position deals with an infinite Being.
The evolutionist`s position does not deal with the infinite.

Third, the subject of the age of the universe has been covered in
the previous material. We have seen that dating methods are far from
reliable, and we have seen that there is a great deal of evidence that
strongly suggests that the universe is not nearly as old as the theory
of evolution claims it is.

Fourth, there is the question of where life came from. The
creationist has no problem with this demand. Life was given from the
Creator to man. The creationist has an understanding of life; of what
life really is. The creationist knows that a man is much more than just
a collection of matter and chemicals.
If you ask an evolutionist what life is they will likely tell you
that it is the result of the production of chemicals. In essence, their
only concept of life is the arrangement of matter.
I believe that this question can be proven. Suppose that there is a
person in the hospital who has just died of a heart attack. I challenge
the evolutionist to take this person, to cool him down, and to go in and
repair or replace his heart. If life is nothing more than a collection
of chemicals and the specific arrangement of matter, let`s correct the
chemical imbalances in his body, and then the evolutionist can bring him
back to life.
The evolutionist wouldn`t have to wait for lightning to strike the
primordial soup, here`s a human already `evolved`. Let`s see if the
evolutionist can bring him back to life.
I don`t mean to be morbid or sarcastic, but I believe that this
example, though it may be offensive, readily illustrates the
shortcomings of the evolutionist`s concept of life. In reality, the
average evolutionist knows almost nothing of what life is really all
about, especially the spiritual world. The evolutionist is spiritually
DEAD.
The creationist`s understanding of life enables him to see that the
Creator has taken back the life that was given to this man, AND THERE IS
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING THAT THE EVOLUTIONIST CAN DO ABOUT IT.

-----------

Next we will consider the fossil record. If there is anything that
can tangibly `prove` the theory of evolution, the fossil record would be
the most likely. Fossils can of course be seen, handled, and examined.
It has been instilled into this generation that the age of anything
can be absolutely proven. As we have seen from our study of the various
dating methods, there is very little that is absolute in the `science`
of dating. The methods and results are at best questionable.
Recent advances in science has shown that there are questions
regarding things once thought absolute. I have read that scientists have
discovered that the speed of light is slowing down. There is evidence
that atomic clocks do not run at a constant rate. They, too, are slowing
down.

Concerning the fossil record, let me read what a leading scientist
has said:

"The fossil record reveals the absence of life forms in the lower
2/3rds of the earth`s crust. Then, suddenly, an abundance of advanced
life forms appear. The oldest rocks in which indisputable fossils are
found are those of the so-called `Cambrien Period.` The Cambrien [sp]
Period sedimentary deposits contain BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of fossils of
HIGHLY ADVANCED and HIGHLY DEVELOPED life forms. Every major
invertebrate form is found in the Cambrien rock layer. The complexity of
these advanced life forms is so great that evolutionists claim that it
would have taken 1,500,000,000 years to `evolve`."

If the theory of evolution is `true`, why do we find NO life forms
in the rock layers underneath the Cambrien rock layer? If evolution
produced these advanced life forms, where is the evidence that these
fossils `evolved` from more simple life forms? Where are the fossils
that these advanced life forms `evolved` from?
If you believe in creation, the fossil record fits in perfectly.
This is exactly what you would expect if this world, and the creatures
in it, all began at one point in time. You would expect a sudden
appearance of advanced creatures, virtually at the same time.
 
a magician has a hat...

the hat is empty.


then, the magician flips it over, taps it, and out comes a rabbit.

to a creationist, wallla, u have god.

to an evolutionist "hmm, let me examine this table. Let me see that wand. I want to examine the hat, check to find out how you did it"



creationists believe blindly. from teh words of a book that start "in the beginning"

that doesnt sound like anything factual to me. It sounds like a fable, or fairy tale.. Idunno, maybe its just me.

evolutioniosts look for facts. If an evolutionist finds facts that god exists, or creation worked, then, well, you have a creationist.

If you find a creationist that discovers the facts.. you have.. a wall.
 
Someone had a nice copy and paste time, didn't they?

Yes, really.
Evolution is based on facts. Creation is based on faith. Two different things.

There is no private interpretation of Scripture, only that of the holy Spirit. I would suggest that all that believe in evolution as the origin of man, evaluate whether they have the holy Spirit teaching them.
There are many different interpretations of the Bible, for nobody knows the right one.

Perhaps you have not investigated evolution from the perspective that it could be a lie
Yes, I have. I was born with creation being shoved at me, and then rejected it because it was completely against science, yet Genesis could still be taken as figuratively.

Kind of like your first quote of Pope Pius XII and John Paul II?
That wasn't quote mining. I see you made no rebuttal against it. Why not?

Many scientific studies have been performed that conclude a young earth
Like?

God never lies. Satan is the father of all lies. Choose you this day whom you will serve.
I never said God lies. I said some creationists lie.

Then science is lacking when describing the creation of God, and God's Word should be held higher than any scientific observation, especially when the two contradict.
The thing is, they don't contradict. The creation of God was either the Big Bang or the steps before. Science can't describe that, but they can describe its after effects.

All humans are fallen in Adam, and their nature is rebellious towards God.
So then what was the point in calling evolution scientists fallen?

You speak volumes in your sentence that prescribes that creation scientists are biased and have preconceived direction based on self, personal outcomes, "It has to match the Bible." Too bad that isn't the foundation of all science, as the Bible is the Word of the one who Created everything. Your position is weak and lacking.
Evolutionists do independent studies with no direction needed. If the results don't show up the way they expected, they make a new hypothesis. If the results don't show up in the way creationists expect, they throw it out saying it is faulty. That is not true science.

You have a time with interpretation. You will accept your own, the popes, or others (evolutionists) over the one single right interpretation of the holy Spirit. Too bad. By the way, the Word of God is infallible, while the pope is just a man, fallible. History has proven that fact.
The Word of God may be infallible, yet nobody knows the true interpretation of it.

You call this a doctrinal attack, I call it questions into what you believe as being false doctrine or correct doctrine according to the Word of God. It seems that you are lacking unless the RC Church tells you what to think.
Yet this is the creation/science forum, where doctrinal debates between different denominations shouldn't occur.

Secular man is blind. He just can't except the fact that the earth came into being by a special creation.
The Big Bang is quite special.
 
ThinkerMan said:
Solo... (as in Han?)

Yes, really.

No. Not Really.

See, we can go back and forth all day. Saying something doesn't make it true. Me saying evolution is the best explanation for life on earth doesn't make it true....but the evidence does.

[quote:c674a]There is no private interpretation of Scripture, only that of the holy Spirit. I would suggest that all that believe in evolution as the origin of man, evaluate whether they have the holy Spirit teaching them.

The fact that there are thousands of Christian demoninations prove you wrong. They can't all be right, so some must be wrong.

Why are you so confident that your "non-private" interpretation is correct and others is wrong...don't they feel the same way about you?

Perhaps you have not investigated evolution from the perspective that it could be a lie

Evolution is not a theory you hold on to for salvation. It is a theory that you agree with because it offers the best explantion for the diversity of life on the planet, as well as where humans came from.

Lie is a strong word. Inaccurate would be better, should it later be proven to be wrong. However, at this point the theory appears sound based on the vast majority of evidence.

Yes, it continues to get tweaked....but all science (including the type that created that computer you are typing on) gets tweaked. That's what keeps scientists busy....investigating and refining others' work.

Many scientific studies have been performed that conclude a young earth, however, the worldly powers that hold evolution near and dear refuse to teach, publish, or investigate these studies since it would destroy the delusion that satan has set up that denies the truth of God's word.

If a young earth has been proven in your eyes, you have no faith in God.

If you have proof, you have no faith. Paul would be disappointed in you.

As for your contention that science is conspiring to hide the truth....how come no traditional scientists that have converted to creationists science have ever verified that claim? At best they say that mainstream science is lacking more information...I have never heard one make the claim of a vast coverup...even though they were educated and employed in that environment.

If you claim was true, some of those creationist scientists would verify it...they haven't to my knowledge.

Then science is lacking when describing the creation of God, and God's Word should be held higher than any scientific observation, especially when the two contradict.

So what you think(based on what you read translated from a variety of differently languages handed down from multiple authors over hundreds of years and recopying) is more important that what you can directly observe and verify?

It that is true, that God is indeed cruel.

All humans are fallen in Adam, and their nature is rebellious towards God. That is why Jesus taught repentance and belief. The difference between evolutionary science and creation science is that they both subscribe to different gods. Creation science subscribes to the physical realm as being created, and evolution subscribes to a process apart from a creator. You speak volumes in your sentence that prescribes that creation scientists are biased and have preconceived direction based on self, personal outcomes, "It has to match the Bible." Too bad that isn't the foundation of all science, as the Bible is the Word of the one who Created everything. Your position is weak and lacking.

No different god. God is irrelevant to evolution.

Evolution is a process...nothing more. It explains how life appears to have arisen.

Science (Newton) tells us how fast a rock falls if you drop it. It, as yet, has no clear theory on WHY the gravitational acceleration works at the rate it does.

Similarly, evolution tells us how life evolves. It has does not attempt to explain where the first life form came from or anything else.

The two are the same...they are both explanations of processes based on observation. Don't read too much into it, or else you won't believe that at rock falls at a certain rate either.

You have a time with interpretation. You will accept your own, the popes, or others (evolutionists) over the one single right interpretation of the holy Spirit. Too bad. By the way, the Word of God is infallible, while the pope is just a man, fallible. History has proven that fact.

"Single right interpretation"?

Have you ever met one person who agreed with you on every single theological, moral, interpretative and religous question? Someone who interpreted every single verse of the bible exactly in context to how you have? Since you have been saved and received the spirit, are you telling me that your viewpoints and theological interpretations can always been the same?

I very highly doubt the answer to those three questions is yes.

Thousands of demoninations and the fact that this website exists with debates among Christians proves that no one can claim the single right interpretation.

I have been in a daily battle with the father of lies since my salvation, and it is simple to see the lies of the evil one permeate the institutions of the world. Only the called out ones are believers, and they exist apart from any man-made institution. The RCC has many paganistic practices that you would be aware of if you studied God's word. Read Foxes Book of Martyrs.

Men wrote the book you call the bible.

A Man-made institution decided the books in your bible.

If you believe in the rapture, you believe in something a man brought forward 1700 years into christianity.

Since you say you are in a daily battle, how do you know you are winning? How do you know Satan is not the one who has inspired you?

Seems to me, if you are that confident, it seems to be fairly indicative of exactly how Satan would make you feel about something.[/quote:c674a]
Tinkerman,
I see that you have no knowledge of the spiritual realm. After you repent and believe in Jesus as your savior, we can fellowship in truth. Until then it will be your one-upsmanship over my comments.

You misunderstood most of my previous post, but the one item that I would like to clear up for you is that the single interpretation of the Word of God is the holy Spirit's. All those who are taught of the holy Spirit will be in agreement item by item. All of the Christians that I have fellowshipped with over the last 22 years and in eight states believe that evolution is a lie from the devil. Perhaps you should ask God to lead you into his Kingdom and give you the holy Spirit so that you can understand this. How many Christians believe that Jesus is the Word? The holy Spirit will teach this as one of the first items to learn in the Christian walk.
Solo
 
Sleeker said:
Someone had a nice copy and paste time, didn't they?

Yes, really.
Evolution is based on facts. Creation is based on faith. Two different things.

Evolution is a theory based on subjective conjecture and philosophical underpinnings, while faith in creation is substantiated through the ages through witnesses and spiritual underpinnings. Very few individuals have first hand knowledge of evolutionary “facts†and must by faith accept what they hear and read.


[quote:802c1]There is no private interpretation of Scripture, only that of the holy Spirit. I would suggest that all that believe in evolution as the origin of man, evaluate whether they have the holy Spirit teaching them.
There are many different interpretations of the Bible, for nobody knows the right one.

The holy Spirit is in charge of revealing redeemed man through the Word of God. There are many who are not redeemed bent on deceiving many, and those that just plain ignore the holy Spirit. The history of creation is very plain in Genesis, and is definitely ignored by those that favor the lie of evolution. Either evolution is the truth from God or a lie from the devil. God does not speak of evolution in the scriptures.


Perhaps you have not investigated evolution from the perspective that it could be a lie
Yes, I have. I was born with creation being shoved at me, and then rejected it because it was completely against science, yet Genesis could still be taken as figuratively.

The you should repent from turning your back on God’s truth, and accept his son Jesus Christ as your savior, so that the holy Spirit can guide you away from the enemy’s deceptions.


Kind of like your first quote of Pope Pius XII and John Paul II?
That wasn't quote mining. I see you made no rebuttal against it. Why not?

If a pope wants to go against the truth, it won’t be the first time.


Many scientific studies have been performed that conclude a young earth
Like?

Do the research into a Creation Science library and you will find many writings that show a young earth, and the wonderful thing about that is that it agrees with the Word of God. There is no contradiction. Study the following Helium, Lead and Helium Diffusion, Excess Fluid Pressure, Volcanic Debris, River Sediments, Continental Erosion, Dissolved metals, Shallow Meteorites, Meteoritic Dust, Magnetic Decay, Rapid Cooling, Moon Recession, Moon Dust and Debris, Crater Creep, Hot Moon, Young Comets, Small Comets, Hot Planets, Solar Wind, Poynting-Robertson Effect, Supernova Remnants, Connected Galaxies, Unstable Galaxies, and Galaxy Clusters.


God never lies. Satan is the father of all lies. Choose you this day whom you will serve.
I never said God lies. I said some creationists lie.

Perhaps some creationists lie, but I have not known any that have. I have read numerous accounts of the lies and hoaxes that evolutionists have told in order to sell their snake oil to the masses. I know the originator of those lies is not God, but is instead the one who seeks to whom he can devour.[color]

Then science is lacking when describing the creation of God, and God's Word should be held higher than any scientific observation, especially when the two contradict.
The thing is, they don't contradict. The creation of God was either the Big Bang or the steps before. Science can't describe that, but they can describe its after effects.

The creation of God is just exactly as he describes in Genesis. He spoke everything that is into existence by the Word of God, and it remains in store by him until he makes everything new after Jesus’ return. God did not need any steps prior to implementing his plan of creation. He had everything planned out prior to the creation, and before the world was created, Jesus was set to be crucified because of God’s foreknowledge of man’s fall. And you are correct; Science can not describe anything in the spiritual realm, so those that are blind of the spiritual realm are grasping at anything to explain their origin. Darwin was disenchanted with creation as you described, and rejected it. It was his choice, and he made a mistake that will affect him for eternity.


All humans are fallen in Adam, and their nature is rebellious towards God.
So then what was the point in calling evolution scientists fallen?

Evolution scientists are either unbelievers in a spiritually fallen state, or believers who have denied the record in Genesis. I personally can not understand how a believer can accept evolution as truth, because to me, it is so obvious that evolution is a deception from the devil.


You speak volumes in your sentence that prescribes that creation scientists are biased and have preconceived direction based on self, personal outcomes, "It has to match the Bible." Too bad that isn't the foundation of all science, as the Bible is the Word of the one who Created everything. Your position is weak and lacking.
Evolutionists do independent studies with no direction needed. If the results don't show up the way they expected, they make a new hypothesis. If the results don't show up in the way creationists expect, they throw it out saying it is faulty. That is not true science.

How do you explain the known hoaxes that have been passed onto school children as factual evidence of evolution? Explain the embryonic hoax, or the Lucy hoax, or the other “facts†that were proven hoaxes. Evolution is a lie that is built on numerous lies. Darwin’s theory has been filleted by modern evolutionary scientists today, however, they continue to waddle aimlessly into their life’s work because they have wasted so much time as it is. I wonder if the halls of academia would continue to employ one who turned to creation science after being an evolutionist all of this time.


You have a time with interpretation. You will accept your own, the popes, or others (evolutionists) over the one single right interpretation of the holy Spirit. Too bad. By the way, the Word of God is infallible, while the pope is just a man, fallible. History has proven that fact.
The Word of God may be infallible, yet nobody knows the true interpretation of it.

The holy Spirit knows has the one interpretation of the Word of God, and it is the holy Spirit that teaches believers and guides them into all truth. color]

You call this a doctrinal attack, I call it questions into what you believe as being false doctrine or correct doctrine according to the Word of God. It seems that you are lacking unless the RC Church tells you what to think.
Yet this is the creation/science forum, where doctrinal debates between different denominations shouldn't occur.

The doctrinal debates occur when evolution was shown to be backed by two popes. The error of the papacy is fairly obvious to those of us who have studied the history of the same.


Secular man is blind. He just can't except the fact that the earth came into being by a special creation.
The Big Bang is quite special.

The Big Bang is another of man’s inventions. God created the physical realm in six days, and he rested on the seventh. He could have created everything in one day, but his plan was to be shown as a template to man’s time on this earth. One day is as a thousand years to the Lord. Six days = Six thousand years and then the rest day; the one thousand year rest of the saints.

[/quote:802c1]
 
You know what? I'm actually going to respond to this extremely large copy and paste. By the way, I think you’re being a jerk for copying and pasting all of this. I’d love to see you make a rebuttal to this 8,411 word post to your 10,093 word post though.

Lewis W said:
"NOT ONE CHANGE OF SPECIES INTO ANOTHER IS ON RECORD. We cannot prove that a single species has ever changed."
Charles Darwin
Quote mining. True quote:

P.S. -- In fact, the belief in Natural Selection must at present be grounded entirely on general considerations. (1) On its being a vera causa, from the struggle for existence; and the certain geological fact that species do somehow change. (2) From the analogy of change under domestication by man's selection. (3) And chiefly from this view connecting under an intelligible point of view a host of facts. When we descend to details, we can prove that no one species has changed [i.e. we cannot prove that a single species has changed]; nor can we prove that the supposed changes are beneficial, which is the groundwork of the theory. Nor can we explain why some species have changed and others have not. The latter case seems to me hardly more difficult to understand precisely and in detail than the former case of supposed change. Bronn may ask in vain, the old creationist school and the new school, why one mouse has longer ears than another mouse, and one plant more pointed leaves than another plant. . . . the fact that they have not been modified does not seem to me a difficulty of weight enough to shake a belief grounded on other arguments.

And by the way, we have seen speciation.

Go down to number 5.0

Evolutionists claim that the process of life was started by some
unknown process, millions (or billions) of years ago.
Nobody claims it was millions of years.

One of the greatest weaknesses of evolutionary theory is that there
are too many forms of life to have happened by chance, and the building
blocks of life are too complex to have just somehow `happened`.
Could a cell by chance come into being that "has the DNA
instructions to fill one thousand 600-page books?" (National Geographic).
Good thing the first life didn’t have DNA then.

1. Research has shown that the requirements for life are so complex that
chance and even billions of years could not have produced them.
Wrong. The chances of requirements for modern life are that complex. Simple life is much more likely to happen.

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB010_2.html

2. Spontaneous generation (the emergence of life from inorganic
materials) has never been observed.
Which is the reason why we study it. Bacteria were never observed until modern times, yet I’m sure you’re not going to dismiss there existence.

3. Mendel's laws of genetics explain virtually all of the physical
variations that are observed within life categories such as the dog
family. A logical consequence of these laws and their modern day
refinements is that there are limits to such variation.
Could you elaborate more?

4. The many similarities between different species do not necessarily
imply a genealogical relationship; they may imply a common Designer.
Yet the common Designer had many very different species, which kind of goes against that.

5. The human body (or the body of any other creature) cannot live
without most internal organs, such as the heart, the lungs, the liver,
et cetera. Remove any of these organs, and the specimen dies. This
implies that the entire body was created at one point in time.
Hardly. It means that each organ evolved together.

6. Natural selection cannot produce new genes; it only selects among
preexisting characteristics.

7. Mutations are the only proposed mechanism by which new genetic
material becomes available for evolution.

8. Almost all observable mutations are harmful; many are fatal.
Wrong. Most mutations are neither harmful nor beneficial. The harmful ones die out, and the beneficial ones get an edge.

9. No known mutation has ever produced a form of life having both
greater complexity and greater viability than its ancestors.
“The process of mutation and selection is observed to increase information and complexity in simulations (Adami et al. 2000; Schneider 2000).â€Â

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB102.html


10. Over seventy years of fruit-fly experiments, equivalent to 2700
human generations, give no basis for believing that any natural or
artificial process can cause an increase in either complexity or
viability. No clear genetic improvement has been observed despite the
many unnatural efforts to increase mutation rates.
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB910_1.html

In addition, no `new`
life form has been produced by mutation. No fruit fly `evolved` into a
mosquito or a bee.
Which is exactly what evolution predicts.

11. There is no evidence that mutations could ever produce any new
organs such as the eye, the ear, or the brain.
Of course they have been:

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB300.html


12. If the earth, early in its alleged `evolution`, had oxygen in its
atmosphere, the chemicals needed for life would have been removed by
oxidation. But if there had been no oxygen, then there would have been
no ozone, and without ozone all life would be quickly destroyed by the
sun's ultraviolet radiation.
There was very little oxygen in early Earther, the ultraviolet rays helped evolution along.

13. Two aspects ignored by studies of the origin of life are:

a) The beauty of the different forms of life.

b) The symmetry of virtually all forms of life.

Evolutionary scientists ignore these aspects, primarily because these
two things suggest a Creator.
Because that is ridiculous.


Virtually all recorded mutations produce
malformed, `non-evolutionary` changes in the subject under study.
Untrue, as I’ve shown before.

14. There have been many imaginative but unsuccessful attempts to
explain how just one single protein could form from any of the assumed
conditions of the early earth. The necessary chemical reactions all tend
to move in the direction opposite from that required. Furthermore, each
possible energy source, whether the earth's heat, electrical discharges,
or the sun's radiation, would destroy the protein products millions of
times faster than they could be formed.
We’re debating a theory here, not a law. Theories describe how and why, which is everything that your paragraph excluded.

15. If, despite the virtually impossible odds, proteins arose by chance
processes, there is absolutely no reason to believe that they could ever
form a self-reproducing, membrane-encased, living cell.
That’s an argument from incredulity.

16. The cells of living creatures are enormously complex. Every part
must be present in order for the cell to survive. All the parts have
different `jobs`. It is not illogical to state that if you remove any
one part, the cell cannot survive. This obviously implies that the parts
(ie, the cell membrane, the nucleus, the ribosomes, etc.) had to have
come into being at the same time.

17. Computer-generated comparisons have been made of the sequences of
amino acids that comprise a protein which is common to 47 forms of
animal and plant life. The results of these studies seriously place
the theory of evolution into jeopardy.
Good thing that early life is simpler than modern life, and that parts of cells co-evolved.

18. The genetic information contained in each cell of the human body is
roughly equivalent to a library of 4000 volumes. For chance mutations
and natural selection to produce this amount of information, assuming
that matter and life `somehow` got started, is analogous to continuing
the following procedure until 4000 volumes have been produced:
(a) Start with a meaningful phrase.
(b) Retype the phrase but make some errors and insert
some additional letters.
(c) Examine the new phrase to see if it is meaningful.
(d) If it is, replace the original phrase with it.
(e) If it is not, return to step (b).

To accumulate 4000 volumes that are meaningful, this procedure would
have to produce the equivalent of far more than 10^3000
(10 to the 3000th power) animal offspring. To begin to understand how
large 10^3000 is, realize that the entire universe has `only` about
10^80 atoms in it.
Mutations aren’t random.

19. Based on present day observations, DNA can only be replicated or
reproduced with the help of certain enzymes. But these enzymes can only
be produced at the direction of DNA. Since each requires the other, a
satisfactory explanation for the origin of one must simultaneously
explain the origin of the other.
*Yawn* Coevolution.

20. Amino acids, when found in nonliving matter, come in two
forms that are chemically equivalent; about half can be described as
"right-handed" and half "left-handed" (a structural description -- one
is the mirror image of the other). However, the protein molecules found
in all forms of life, including plants, animals, bacteria, molds, and
even viruses, have only the left-handed variety. The mathematical
probability that chance processes could produce just one tiny protein
molecule with only left-handed amino acids is virtually zero.
What mathematical probability?

21. The simplest form of life consists of 600 different protein
molecules. The mathematical probability that just one molecule could
form by the chance arrangement of the proper amino acids is far less
than 1 in 10^527 (10 to the 527th power). The magnitude of the number
10^527 can begin to be appreciated by realizing that the visible
universe is about 10^28 inches in diameter.
Again, it refers to the simplest modern form of life.

22. There are many instances where quite different forms of life are
completely dependent upon each other. Examples include: fig trees and
the fig gall wasp, the yucca plant and the pronuba moth, many parasites
and their hosts, pollen-bearing plants and the honey-bee family
consisting of the queen, workers, and drones. There are many, many
others. If one member of each interdependent group evolved first (such
as the plant before the animal), the other member could not have
survived. Since all members of the group obviously have survived, they
must have come into existence at essentially the same time.
Coevolution.

23. Earthly life forms reproduce after their own kind. Different animals
do not inter-breed. This suggests that each of these life forms were
distinctly created. Cats and dogs do not interbreed to produce `cat-
dogs`. Therefore it is highly unlikely that different life forms were
formed by species interbreeding.
Yeah, and…?

1. Stories claiming that primitive, ape-like men have been found are
overstated. Piltdown man was an acknowledged hoax. The fragmentary
evidence that constituted Nebraska man was a pig's tooth. The
discoverer of Java man later acknowledged that it was a large gibbon and
that he had withheld evidence to that effect.
So? Creation has had quite a bit of frauds too.

The `evidence` concerning
Peking man has disappeared.
But it’s already been documented.

Louis and Mary Leakey, the discoverers of
Zinjanthropus (previously referred to by some as Australopithecus),
later admitted that they were probably apes.
And what does that matter? By the way, find me the quote.

Ramapithecus man consists
merely of a handful of teeth and jaw fragments; his teeth are very
similar to those of the gelada baboon living today. For about 100 years
the world was led to believe that Neanderthal man was stooped and ape-
like. Recent studies show that this individual was crippled with
arthritis and probably had rickets. Neanderthal man, Heidelberg man, and
Cro-Magnon man are similar to humans living today.
And?

Furthermore, the dating techniques are highly questionable.
And what are their questions?

2. Many of the world's fossils show, by the details of their
soft fleshy portions, that they were buried before they could decay.
They were buried quickly.

This, together with the occurrence of polystrate fossils (fossils that
traverse two or more strata of sedimentary rock) in Carboniferous,
Mesozoic, and Cenozoic formations, is unmistakable evidence that this
sedimentary material was deposited rapidly -- not over hundreds of
millions of years.
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC331.html

Also, earthquakes and the like and cause that too.


3. Many fossils of modern looking humans have been found deep in rock
formations that are supposedly many millions of years older than
evolutionary theory would predict. These remains are ignored or even
suppressed by evolutionists.

4. The vertical sequencing of fossils is frequently not in the assumed
evolutionary order.
Any proof?

5. Nowhere on the earth can one find the so-called "geologic column."
Even at the Grand Canyon, only a small fraction of this imaginary column
is found.
Yes, they do, at Bonaparte Basin of Australia and Williston Basin of North Dakota. Even if there weren’t any spots, it wouldn’t matter.

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD101.html

6. If `evolution` had occurred, the fossil record should show continuous
and gradual changes from the bottom to the top layers and between all
forms of life. Just the opposite is found. Many complex species appear
suddenly in the lowest layers, and innumerable gaps and discontinuities
appear throughout.
Where’s your evidence? By the way, some stuff grows more complex, some stays the same, and some gets simpler…

7. The vast majority of the sediments, which encase practically all
fossils, were laid down though water.
Evidence?

8. The worldwide fossil record is evidence of the rapid death and burial
of animal and plant life by a flood; it is not evidence of slow change.
How so?

9. A `simple' protein consists of about 100 amino acids. How likely
would it be that such a protein could `chain together` by chance? Assume
that we have a `soup` full of amino acids. We want these amino acids to
`link up` at random to form a protein consisting of 100 amino acids.
How many different combinations are there? Suppose there are 20
different amino acids available. If we wanted a chain of two acids there
would be 20 possibilities for the first and 20 for the second - a total
of 20 X 20 = 400 possibilities. For a chain of three acids, there would
be 20 X 20 X 20 = 8000 possibilities.
For a protein consisting of 100 amino acids (a `simple` protein),
there would be 20^100 possibilities. 20^100 is roughly equal to
10^130. Scientists have stated that there may be as many as 10^22 stars
in the observable universe. Let`s be generous and assume there are
1000 times that many. Let`s generously assume that each star has
10 `Earths`; that is, 10 planets that have the conditions necessary
for the support of life.
We will change the water into amino acids (10^46 molecules).
Thus, 10^26 * 10^46 = 10^72 amino acids on all the `earths`.
A year has less than 10^8 seconds for a total of 10^78 chains per
year. Let`s assume that the universe is 100 billion years old. We
would have 10^78 * 10^11 chains formed in all the oceans of amino
acids on all of our `earths` around all our stars, for all the years
that the universe has existed. But we have seen that there are
about 10^130 possibilities. Therefore, the probability of forming
by chance the given protein consisting of 100 amino acids in 10^89
tries is less that 10^89/10^130, which equals 1/10^41, OR,
0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000041. This is, needless
to say, an infinitely small number.

Thus, even if there were 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
`Earths`, instead of just the one Earth, the chances of life emerging on
EVEN ONE of them are bleak, to say the least.
And by the way, we looked at a `simple` protein. The average-
sized protein has 500 amino acids!
Again, you’re basing that off of modern times.

10. Detailed studies of various animals have revealed certain physical
equipment and capabilities that cannot be duplicated by the world's best
designers using the most sophisticated technologies. A few examples
include: the miniature and reliable sonar systems of the dolphins,
porpoises, and whales; the frequency modulated radar and discrimination
system of the bat; the efficiency and aerodynamic capabilities of the
hummingbird; the control systems, internal ballistics, and combustion
chambers of the bombardier beetle; and the precise and redundant
navigational systems of many birds and fish. Scientists have `proven`
that it is aerodynamically impossible for a bee to fly.
Yet it flies.
The many components of these complex systems could not have evolved in
stages without placing a selective disadvantage on the animal.
The statement in bold shows the lack of competence in the whole point. Bees have been proven that they cannot glide, but they can fly.

11. If sexual reproduction in plants, animals, and humans is a result of
`evolution`, an absolutely unbelievable series of chance events would
have had to occur. First, the complex and completely different
reproductive systems of the male must have completely and independently
evolved at about the same time and place as those of the female. A
slight incompleteness in just one of the two would make both systems
useless, and natural selection would oppose their survival. Second, the
physical and emotional systems of the male and female would also need to
be compatible. Third, the complex products of the male reproductive
system (pollen or sperm) would have to have an affinity for and a
mechanical and chemical compatibility with the eggs from the female
reproductive system. Fourth, the intricate and numerous processes
occurring at the molecular level inside the fertilized egg would have to
work with fantastic precision the very first time it happened --
processes which scientists can only describe in an aggregate sense. And
finally, the environment of the fertilized egg, from conception until it
also reproduces with another sexually capable "brother or sister," would
have to be controlled to an unbelievable degree.
And if these processes did not occur at precisely the right time,
then one must restart this incredible chain of events near zero. The
odds then become so astronomical that they insult the intelligence of
anyone with common sense. The `facts` of evolution are already difficult
enough to believe, without stretching them any further.
Either this series of incredible events occurred by random
processes, or else an Intelligent Designer created sexual reproduction.
Coevolution…

Naturalistic explanations for the evolution of the solar system and
universe are unscientific and hopelessly inadequate.

According to ALL theories on the evolution of the solar system:
*Sarcasm* I’m sure they are.

a. The planets should all rotate on their axes in the
same direction; Venus and Uranus rotate `backwards`.

b. All 42 moons of the various planets should revolve in
the same direction; at least 11 revolve `backwards`.

c. The orbits of these 42 moons should all lie in the equatorial
plane of the planet they orbit; many, including the earth's moon,
are highly inclined.
It’s called gravity and outside forces… :D

d. The material of the earth (and Mars, Venus, and
Mercury) should almost all be hydrogen and helium --
similar to that of the sun and the rest of the visible universe;
actually much less than 1% of the earth's mass
is hydrogen or helium.
Completely wrong. Most hydrogen and helium would be blow away into the outer planets by solar wind, leaving mainly rocks and other metals, along with heavy air.

e. The sun should have 700 times more angular
momentum than the planets; the planets have 50 times
more angular momentum than the sun.
Why?

1. Detailed analyses indicate that stars could not have formed from
interstellar gas clouds. To do so, either by first forming dust
particles or by a direct gravitational collapse of the gas, would
require vastly more time than the alleged age of the universe.
Why?

2. The sun's tidal forces are so strong that dust clouds or gas clouds
lying within the orbit of Jupiter could never condense to form planets.
3. Saturn's rings could not have formed from the disintegration of a
former satellite or from the capture of external material; its particles
are too small and too evenly distributed throughout an orbit that is too
circular.
2. Why?
3. Evidence?


4. The moon was not torn from the earth, nor did it congeal from the
same material as the earth since the relative abundance of its elements
are too dissimilar from those of the earth.
It was a glancing blow. Therefore, most of the elements in the Moon are in Earth’s crust.

5. No scientific theory exists to explain the origin of matter, space,
or time. Since each is intimately related and defined in terms of the
other, a satisfactory explanation for the origin of one must also
explain the origin of the others. Naturalistic explanations have
completely failed.
Ever heard of a tiny thing called the Big Bang? Maybe it wasn’t so tiny afterall.

[quote:7264b]6. One Postulation of The First Law of Thermodynamics states that the
energy of our universe is constant, or `conserved`. Countless
experiments have shown that regardless of the energy conversion process,
the total amount of energy (or its mass equivalent) remains constant. A
corollary of the First Law is that no energy can be created. Since the
universe obviously has energy, that energy must have been created in the
past when The First Law was not operating. Since the energy of the
universe could not have created itself, Something external must have
created it.
The First Law of Thermodynamics is a universal law. Hence, if there is no universe, the law no longer applies. The energy was created, and the universe came about because of it.

7. Stellar evolution is assumed in estimation the age of stars. These
age estimates are then used to establish a framework for `stellar
evolution`. This is CIRCULAR reasoning.
Actually, spectrometry is used to date the stars.

8. There is NO evidence that galaxies `evolved`.
"With the development of GUT, we see galaxy formation is no longer a problem at all but simply one more natural phenomenon with a perfectly natural explanation." [James S. Trefil, The Moment of Creation]

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-mer ... tml#galaxy


1. Any estimated date prior to the beginning of written records must
necessarily assume that the dating clock has operated at a known rate,
that the initial setting of the clock is known, and that the clock has
not been disturbed. These assumptions are not verifiable, and are not
necessarily reliable.

2. A major assumption that underlies all radioactive dating techniques
is that the rates of decay, which have been essentially constant over
the past 70 years, have also been constant over the past 200,000,000
years. This bold, critical, and untestable assumption is made even
though no one knows what causes radioactive decay.
Radiometric dating can only be altered by fundamental changes in the universe, which have not bee observed or supported.


3. Many of the published dates can be checked by comparisons with the
assumed ages for the fossils that sometimes bracket radiometrically
dated rock. In over 300 (or almost half) of these PUBLISHED checks, the
radiometrically determined ages were at least one geologic age
in error -- indicating major errors in methodology. An unanswered
question is, "How many other dating checks were not published because
they too were in error?"
Evidence?

[quote[4. Pleochroic halos, tiny spheres of discoloration produced by the
radioactive decay of particles that are encased in various crystals,
show that the earth's crust was NEVER in a molten state. Furthermore,
these halos suggest that the rate of radioactive decay was NOT constant,
and in fact, varied by MANY orders of magnitude from that observed
today.[/quote:7264b]
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/po-halos/gentry.html

5. Geological formations are almost always dated by their fossil
content, especially by certain INDEX FOSSILS of extinct animals. The
age of the fossil is derived from the ASSUMED evolutionary sequence, but
the evolutionary sequence is based on the fossil record. This reasoning
is CIRCULAR! Furthermore, this procedure has produced many contradictory
results.
A: It isn’t circular. B: That’s not how they do it. C: If it were circular, it would not produce contradictory results.

6. Human footprints are found alongside dinosaur footprints in the rock
formations of the Paluxy riverbed in Texas. This obviously shows that
man and dinosaurs lived at the same time and the same place. But
evolutionists claim that dinosaurs became extinct about 30 million years
before `man` supposedly began to `evolve`.
*Slams head against computer*

It was a hoax.

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC101.html


7. Many different people have found at different times and places man-
made artifacts encased in coal! Examples include an 8-carat gold chain,
a spoon, a thimble, an iron pot, a bell, and other objects of obvious
human manufacture. Many other "out-of-place artifacts" such as a
metallic vase, a screw, nails, a strange coin, and a doll have been
found buried deeply in solid rock.
They were found in mine shafts, abandoned and collapsed.

By evolutionary dating techniques,
these objects would be hundreds of millions of years old; but man
supposedly didn't begin to evolve until 2-4 million years ago. This
casts more doubt on the dating methods used.
Yet that reason is circular… :P

8. In rock formations in Utah, Pennsylvania, Missouri, and Kentucky,
human footprints that are supposedly 150-600 million years old have been
found and examined by many different authorities. Obviously, there is a
major error in chronology.
Evidence?

9. The fact that there is no worldwide unconformity in the earth's
sedimentary strata implies that this entire geologic record must have
been deposited rapidly. (An "unconformity" is an erosional surface
between two adjacent rock formations representing a time break of
unknown duration. "Conformities" imply a continuous and rapid
deposition. Since one can always trace a continuous path from the bottom
to the top of the geologic record that avoids these unconformities, the
sediments along that path must have been deposited continuously.)
Unconfomity is bad for evolution, which goes against what you said, yet still can be explained. You just argued for evolution there.

10. Radiocarbon dating, which has been accurately calibrated by counting
the rings of living trees that are up to 3,500 years old, is unable to
extend this accuracy and date organic remains that are more ancient. A
few people have claimed that ancient wood exists which will permit this
calibration to be extended even further back in time, but these people
have not let outside scientists examine their data. On the other hand,
measurements made at hundreds of sites worldwide indicate that
the concentration of radiocarbon in the atmosphere rose quite rapidly at
some time prior to 3,500 years ago. If this happened, a radiocarbon age
of 40,000 years could easily correspond to a true age of 5,000 years.
Even it this were true, which it isn’t, it wouldn’t matter for we have evidence that gives later dates.

1. Direct measurements of the earth's magnetic field over the past 140
years show a steady and rapid decline in its strength. This decay
pattern is consistent with the theoretical view that there is an
electrical current inside the earth which produces the magnetic field.
If this view is correct, then 25,000 years ago the electrical current
would have been so vast that the earth's structure could not have
survived the heat produced. This would imply that the earth could not be
older than 25,000 years.
The magnetic field has stopped, restarted, and has even flipped in the past.

2. The atmosphere has less than 40,000 years worth of helium, based on
just the production of helium from the decay of uranium and thorium.
There is no known means by which large amounts of helium can escape from
the atmosphere. The atmosphere appears to be young.
Some helium is heated and just floats out of the atmosphere, while others are ionized and get a ride out on magnetic lines.

3. The rate at which elements such as copper, gold, tin, lead, silicon,
mercury, uranium and nickel are entering the oceans is very rapid when
compared with the small quantities of these elements already in the
oceans. Therefore, the oceans must be very much younger than a million
years.
The rate at which aluminum is entering the ocean is very rapid when compared with the small quantities of this element already in the oceans. Therefore, the oceans must be no older than 100 years. Disproves your points…

4. Evolutionists believe that the continents have existed for at least
1 billion years. However, the continents are being eroded at a rate
that would have leveled them in a relatively short 14 million years.
They are being added to as all at plate boundaries and volcanoes.

5. The occurrence of abnormally high gas and oil pressures within
relatively permeable rock implies that these fluids were formed or
encased less than 10,000 years ago. If these hydrocarbons had been
trapped over 10,000 years ago, there would have been leakage which would
have dropped the pressure to a level far below what it is today.
Evidence?

7. There have been no authenticated reports of the discovery of
meteorites in sedimentary material. If the sediments, which have an
average depth of 1 1/2 miles, were laid down over hundreds of millions
of years, many of these steadily falling meteorites should have been
discovered. Therefore, the sediments appear to have been deposited
rapidly; furthermore, since there have been no reports of meteorites
beneath the sediments, they appear to have been deposited recently.
It is statistically almost impossible to find a meteorite on accident by digging in the ground.

8. Since 1836, over one hundred different observers at the Royal
Greenwich Observatory and U.S. Naval Observatory have made direct visual
measurements which show that the diameter of the sun is shrinking at a
rate of about .1% each century or about 5 feet per hour! Furthermore,
records of solar eclipses indicate that this rapid shrinkage has been
going on for at least the past 400 years. Several indirect techniques
also confirm this gravitational collapse, although these inferred
collapse rates are only about 1/7th as much. Using the most
conservative data, one must conclude that had the sun existed one
million years ago, it would have been so large that it would have heated
the earth so much that life could not have survived. Yet, evolutionists
say that a million years ago all the present forms of life were
essentially as they are now, having completed their `evolution` that
began 200 million years ago.
The sun oscillates. You used the oldest creationist lie in the book. By the way, there is no evidence that shows it was ever shrinking.

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CE/CE310.html


9. Short period comets "boil off" some of their mass each time they
pass the sun. Nothing should remain of these comets after about 10,000
years. There are no known sources for replenishing comets. If comets
came into existence at the same time as the solar system, the solar
system must be less than 10,000 years old.
The comets are replenished by the Oort Cloud.

10. Jupiter and Saturn are each radiating more than twice the energy
they receive from the sun. Calculations show that it is very unlikely
that this energy comes from radioactive decay or gravitational
contraction. The only other conceivable explanation is that these
planets have not existed long enough to cool off.
“Jupiter is cooling slowly enough that it could still be radiating its primordial heat. Saturn's extra heat could come from gravitational potential energy as helium in its atmosphere condenses into droplets and falls toward the center.â€Â

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CE/CE231.html

11. The sun's gravitational field acts as a giant vacuum cleaner which
sweeps up about 100,000 tons of micrometeorites per day. If the solar
system were just 10,000 years old, no micrometeoroids should remain
since there is no significant source of replenishment. A large disk
shaped cloud of these particles is orbiting the sun. Conclusion: the
solar system is less than 10,000 years old.
Evidence?

12. Stars frequently travel in closely spaced clusters, moving in the
same direction at nearly the same speed. This would not be the case if
they had been traveling for billions of years, because even the
slightest difference in their velocity would cause their dispersal after
such great periods of time.
There’s this little thing called gravity.

13. If man and languages `evolved`, the earliest languages should be the
simplest. On the contrary, as one studies languages that are
increasingly ancient, such as Latin (200 B.C.), Greek (800 B.C.), and
Vedic Sanskrit (1500 B.C.), they become INCREASINGLY COMPLEX with
respect to syntax, cases, genders, moods, voices, tenses, and verb
forms. The evidence indicates that languages do not Evolve, they
DEvolve.
Something cannot devolve. Also, that is an argument fom incredulity.

However, as our knowledge of genetics and the human body as a whole
progressed, facts began emerging that cause the theory of evolution to
be in doubt. The same goes for our knowledge of the universe
*Cough*Wrong*Cough*

The theory of evolution basically says that we made ourselves.
Wrong again! Evolution is an explanation of how modern life came around without the outside help of supernatural forces.

But I soon learned that the theory of evolution is totally contrary to the Scriptures.
Wrong again! It is totally compatible.

First, a definition of `evolution`. Simply stated, evolution is the
theory that living matter arose from chemicals.
Wrong for the umpteenth time. Evolution is “A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form.â€Â

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=evolution


When I was in college, one of the first laws I was taught was the
`Law of Biogenesis`. This law states that life does NOT arise
spontaneously from non-living materials.
Modern life…

I believe in micro mutations, but I do not believe in macro
mutations. There is simply no evidence whatsoever that macro mutations
have ever produced a more viable life-form.
Microevolution causes macroevolution.

An example of a micro mutation is the `peppered moth` of the eastern
seaboard. Evolutionists love to say that this moth is `proof` of
evolution, because the color of this moth has changed from light colors
to dark colors over the past several hundred years. They say that since
the trees of that area have darkened in color due to air pollution, the
moth has `evolved` into a darker color to evade their natural predators
by `matching` the color of the tree bark. They neglect to mention that
the moth has changed color for the SAME REASON that the trees have, due
to air pollution and smog. Yet evolutionists point to this as the
`greatest proof` of the theory of evolution ever witnessed.
If this is `evidence` of evolution, I say that they have not
witnessed evolution at all, BECAUSE THEY ARE STILL MOTHS. They still
have the genetic material of a moth.
They are not changing colors from pollution, but rather, the light ones were killed off, making the darker ones appear more populated. Classic example of natural selection.

Thus there are limits to the extent of change within the many
different species. It is amazing how far these limits extend. The
genetic material has variations, but a dog will always be a dog. No dog
has `evolved` into a horse. If one ever did, the theory of evolution
would have at least a reprieve. But no solid evidence of such an
incident exists.
A dog can never evolve into a horse. Even if it functions exactly like a horse, it will named different because of its ancestry. By the way, bigger doesn’t mean more evolved…

The theory of evolution says that by mutations, `accidents` can
happen to that instruction bank, and then as that organism grows into
adulthood, that `accident` will produce a `better` life form.
You’re talking about modern life again…

The same results are produced when genetic material mutates.
Mutations are virtually always detrimental. The results are usually
fatal. Sometimes the subject is merely crippled. Sometimes there is
simply a malformed form of the same creature.
Wrong. Most are neither detrimental nor beneficial.

But there is NO evidence
of a mutation ever producing a more viable life-form.

“Beneficial mutations are commonly observed. They are common enough to be problems in the cases of antibiotic resistance in disease-causing organisms and pesticide resistance in agricultural pests (e.g., Newcomb et al. 1997; these are not merely selection of pre-existing variation.) They can be repeatedly observed in laboratory populations (Wichman et al. 1999). Other examples include the following:

Mutations have given bacteria the ability to degrade nylon (Prijambada et al. 1995).

Plant breeders have used mutation breeding to induce mutations and select the beneficial ones (FAO/IAEA 1977).

Certain mutations in humans confer resistance to AIDS (Dean et al. 1996; Sullivan et al. 2001) or to heart disease (Long 1994; Weisgraber et al. 1983).

A mutation in humans makes bones strong (Boyden et al. 2002).

Transposons are common, especially in plants, and help to provide beneficial diversity (Moffat 2000).

In vitro mutation and selection can be used to evolve substantially improved function of RNA molecules, such as a ribozyme (Wright and Joyce 1997).â€Â

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB101.html
]

In his book, Dr. Brown says that "the process of mutation is the
only known source of raw materials of genetic viability, and hence,
evolution." He is quoting here from a man named Theodosus Dzenski [sp],
who is one of the most famous teachers of the theory of evolution.
Dzenski [sp] says, "The mutants which arise are, with rare
exceptions, deleterious to their carriers, at least in the environments
which the species normally arise."
There are 3 deletrious mutations out of every 175 mutations that occur.

Same source


Paul Moorehead has written a book, "Mathematical Challenges to the
Darwinian Interpretation of Evolution." In it, he says he decided "to
find out whether a single amino acid change in a hemoglobin mutation
is known that doesn`t produce a result harmful to the function of that
hemoglobin." He was studying the changes necessary in a hemoglobin to
improve it.
He says, "One is hard put to find such an instance." Yet
evolutionists have taught for years that Alpha Hemoglobin A changed
through mutations into Beta Hemoglobin A.
Mr. Moorehead learned that such a mutation would require A MINIMUM
of 10^120 mutations.
How large is 10^120? There are "only" 10^80 electrons in the entire
universe. Now this man is telling us that it would take 10^120 micro
mutations to change this one hemoglobin? How many of you believe that
evolution accomplished this feat?
The theory goes that Alpha Hemoglobin A changed
through mutations into Beta Hemoglobin A, yet this person tested an amino acid evolving into hemoglobin. They are different.


What are some of the mutations present in the human species? Well,
there is albinism, dwarfism, color blindness, and Down`s Syndrome. These
are genetic mutations, the `stuff` that evolutionists say produced
modern man.
And I can point to any part of the human body to show where the beneficial mutations are…

Yet there has never been a documented example of a beneficial mutation.
“Beneficial mutations are commonly observed. They are common enough to be problems in the cases of antibiotic resistance in disease-causing organisms and pesticide resistance in agricultural pests (e.g., Newcomb et al. 1997; these are not merely selection of pre-existing variation.) They can be repeatedly observed in laboratory populations (Wichman et al. 1999). Other examples include the following:

Mutations have given bacteria the ability to degrade nylon (Prijambada et al. 1995).

Plant breeders have used mutation breeding to induce mutations and select the beneficial ones (FAO/IAEA 1977).

Certain mutations in humans confer resistance to AIDS (Dean et al. 1996; Sullivan et al. 2001) or to heart disease (Long 1994; Weisgraber et al. 1983).

A mutation in humans makes bones strong (Boyden et al. 2002).

Transposons are common, especially in plants, and help to provide beneficial diversity (Moffat 2000).

In vitro mutation and selection can be used to evolve substantially improved function of RNA molecules, such as a ribozyme (Wright and Joyce 1997).â€Â

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB101.html


To make these clocks work, you have to assume that the rate of
radioactive decay is the same today as it has been for the last 40,000
years. However, scientists have recently discovered that the rate of
radioactive decay can be changed, not in tiny amounts, but in
significant amounts. Yet we have been deceived into believing that
radioactive decay is an absolutely steady process. That is not true.
Yes, it is. If it were changed, the fundamental laws of the universe would have changed also, and they certainly haven’t.

Another necessity for this clock is that the amount of Carbon-14 in
the atmosphere would have to have been the same for the last 40,000
years. How many of you believe that the concentration of C-14 in the
atmosphere 20,000 years ago was the same as it is today? How many of you
believe that it was the same 50 years ago? It wasn`t. We`ve been
measuring it for about 50 years, and it has changed in `only` 50 years.
What does that tell you about the reliability of the Carbon-14 dating
system?
You’re wrong. We go by ratios of Carbon-14 to its by-product.

A scientist who won the Nobel Peace Prize once said, at a meeting
with other Nobel Prize winners, concerning radio-metric dating, "if it
corroborates our theory and our work, we print it. If it comes close, we
put it in a footnote. If it is contradictory, we don`t mention it at
all." How`s that for scientific honesty?
Using an unnamed source? How’s that for scientific honesty.

For instance living snails have been dated at 2,300 years old by the carbon-dating method." How many of you believe that a living snail could be 2,300 years
old? Wood from living trees has been dated at being 10,000 years old.
How many of you believe that a tree can live 10,000 years?
Hawaiian lava flows known to be about 200 years old have been dated
by potassium argon dating as being 3,000,000,000 years old.
Because those dates are not within the range that can be tested by those dating methods.

We will now talk about the `clock` of cosmic dust. 14,000,000 tons
of cosmic dust fall on the earth every year. The earth has a good
atmosphere so that this dust could have been dispersed for a long period
of time.
Cosmic dust has a high concentration of nickel in it. Therefore if
this dust has been falling for hundreds of millions of years, we should
be able to find an enormous amount of nickel. We have not. Either the
rate of this dust has changed greatly in the last 50 years, or our world
is not as old as we have been led to believe.
The results were contaminated by atmospheric dusts, voiding any theories that are taken from it.

Scientists thought that the lunar lander had to be designed with
large feet. Since there is no atmosphere or rain to disperse this cosmic
dust, considering the supposed age of the moon, the lunar lander might
sink into the dust.
How much did it cost taxpayers to pay for the landing pods on the
lunar module? Remember that the lunar lander had `feet` about six feet
in diameter?
What happened? The dust wasn`t 200,000,000 years thick, was it? It
was about 1/2 an inch deep. What does that point to? A young moon.
NASA never believed the dust was very thick. In fact, it had landed previous satellites on the Moon which proved it. The statistics are way off too.

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CE/CE101.html


How about Niagara Falls? Scientists have measured the erosion rate
of Niagara Falls for more than 100 years. If the North American
continent has existed for as long as evolutionists claim, Niagara Falls
would have eroded itself completely around the world, more than once.
What does that suggest? A young earth.
What is suggests is that Niagara Falls is young, which it is. 7,000 years old that is.

How about the Mississippi delta? Scientists have studied it for more
than 150 years, because of the concern about flooding of the delta area.
There is a great deal of information about the Mississippi delta. At its
current rate of sedimentation, guess how long it has taken to reach its
present configuration? About 4,000 years.
The delta produces about 300,000,000 cubic yards of sedimentation
into the Gulf of Mexico every year.
You can also look at from the other side. At the current rate of
sedimentation, if the Mississippi delta has existed as long as
evolutionists say it has, it would have filled up the Gulf of Mexico
more than once. What does that suggest? A young earth.
First of all, it’s 30,000 years. By the way:

“The age of the Mississippi delta only gives a lower limit for the age of the earth.

The Mississippi delta is seven miles thick at the Gulf of Mexico. This is too thick to have formed suddenly by a single flood, as such a flood would have spread the sediments out, not compacted them all in one place.

The claimed size of the Mississippi delta considers only its current delta. The location of the delta has changed every so often due to changes in sea level and changes in the course of the Mississippi River. In the early Cenozoic, the Gulf of Mexico and the Mississippi delta extended as far north as Illinois [Weber 1980].â€Â

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD211.html

Scientists have discovered that the Earth`s rotational speed is
declining. If the earth is 2,000,000,000 years old, as evolutionists
say it is, and it had been slowing at the present rate, the earth would
have stopped rotating many years ago. Its rotational speed would be
zero.

Looking at this in another light, if you extrapolate the rotational
speed of the earth, and increase it as you go back in time 2,000,000,000
years, it would have been spinning so rapidly that all the continents
would have drifted to the equator, and the earth would have become a
`pancake`. What does this point to? A young earth.
We say Earth is 4.5 billion years old, which would nullify any “intelligent†thought of the point, but I will still comment on it.

“The earth's rotation is slowing at a rate of about 0.005 seconds per year per year. This extrapolates to the earth having a fourteen-hour day 4.6 billion years ago, which is entirely possible.

The rate at which the earth is slowing today is higher than average because the present rate of spin is in resonance with the back-and-forth movement of the oceans.

Fossil rugose corals preserve daily and yearly growth patterns and show that the day was about 22 hours long 370 million years ago, in rough agreement with the 22.7 hours predicted from a constant rate of slowing (Scrutton 1964; Wells 1963).â€Â

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CE/CE011.html



The earth has a population growth of about 1/2 of 1% a year.
Actually this is a very conservative estimate. In actuality, the growth
rate is about twice that much.
How long would take one man and one woman to populate the entire
world at 1/2 its present rate of growth? About 4,000 years.
If you went back in time to the time when evolutionists say that
mankind as we know it began, guess what the population of the earth
would be at 1/2 the present growth rate. The population would be 10^2100
people! You remember that there are `only` 10^80 electrons in the
universe. Remember that if the universe were `packed` with electrons,
there would only be room for 1^120 electrons? That number is NOTHING
compared to 10^2100.
What does this evidence point to? A young earth.
You’re forgotten wars, famine, genocide, starvation, volcanic eruptions, etc.

L
et`s talk about stars. Our sun produces the energy of about
1,000,000,000 hydrogen bombs per second. By doing that it is converting
the smallest form of atomic elements, hydrogen, and radiating that out
into space. The sun is therefore consuming itself.
There are stars that are 1,000,000 times brighter than our sun. That
means that they are using a phenomenal amount of matter to produce this
much energy, and they are radiating this energy out into space. If you
take the present size of those `superstars`, and extrapolate back
2,000,000,000 years, those stars would have had to be implausibly large
to be the size they are today. In fact, one of them would have had to
have been big enough to occupy almost the entire universe! What does
that suggest? A young universe.
The hydrogen and helium doesn’t disappear, as that would violate the Law of Conservation of Mass.

First, creation demands the presence of a creator. The theory of
evolution demands the absence of a creator.
Evolution describes how life came to be without involving supernatural forces.

Second, creation demands the creation of matter. The theory of
evolution has no explanation for the origin of matter.
No, it doesn’t, for it’s the theory of evolution. Like this person said earlier, organic evolution is different than inorganic evolution, yet now he is calling them one and the same. Hypocrite. By the way, the explanation of the origin of matter is the Big Bang theory.

The theory of evolution does not allow for a higher power or a giver of life.
Wrong!

Fifth, there is the fossil record. Creation demands a sudden
appearance of life forms in the fossil record. The theory of evolution
says that the fossil record should show the `evolution` of life forms.
The theory of evolution says the fossil record should show species
changing from one life form to another. There should be many, many
examples of this in the fossil record, if all the many life forms we see
today truly `evolved` from the `primeval soup`. We will look in detail
at this subject later.
The fossil record completely supports evolution and not creation.

Hold it. I didn`t say, "how did matter come into its present form?". I
said, WHERE DID MATTER COME FROM? The evolutionist might say it
condensed into this big blob before the `Big Bang`. Well, you missed me
again. I asked, `Where did it come from?`. The point is, the
evolutionist has no answer for this question. If matter `condensed`
from energy, as some evolutionists say, where did that energy come from?
The creationist has no problem with this demand. The evolutionist
has MANY problems with this demand.
It could’ve come from God, or it could’ve come from quantum fluctuations.

If you ask an evolutionist what life is they will likely tell you
that it is the result of the production of chemicals. In essence, their
only concept of life is the arrangement of matter.
Maybe the atheistic ones, but not the Christian ones.

Concerning the fossil record, let me read what a leading scientist
has said:
Until I learn who this scientist is, his/her quote is void.

If the theory of evolution is `true`, why do we find NO life forms
in the rock layers underneath the Cambrien rock layer? If evolution
We have.

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC300.html
 
All those who are taught of the holy Spirit will be in agreement item by item.
I have been taught by the Holy Spirit, and I'm in agreement.

All of the Christians that I have fellowshipped with over the last 22 years and in eight states believe that evolution is a lie from the devil.
Let's play "Who's the most popular?" No one... Okay...

Evolution is a theory based on subjective conjecture and philosophical underpinnings, while faith in creation is substantiated through the ages through witnesses and spiritual underpinnings. Very few individuals have first hand knowledge of evolutionary “facts†and must by faith accept what they hear and read.
Yet, if they would happen to read up on evolution, the facts would be there and faith would no longer be required.

The holy Spirit is in charge of revealing redeemed man through the Word of God. There are many who are not redeemed bent on deceiving many, and those that just plain ignore the holy Spirit. The history of creation is very plain in Genesis, and is definitely ignored by those that favor the lie of evolution. Either evolution is the truth from God or a lie from the devil. God does not speak of evolution in the scriptures.
Well, the Holy Spirit has told me that my interpretation is fine, so I believe it.

The you should repent from turning your back on God’s truth, and accept his son Jesus Christ as your savior, so that the holy Spirit can guide you away from the enemy’s deceptions.
I could, but then I'd be lying to myself and to the truth about God's creation.

If a pope wants to go against the truth, it won’t be the first time.
Or maybe, the pope is going with the truth. It wouldn't be the first time.

Do the research into a Creation Science library and you will find many writings that show a young earth, and the wonderful thing about that is that it agrees with the Word of God. There is no contradiction. Study the following Helium, Lead and Helium Diffusion, Excess Fluid Pressure, Volcanic Debris, River Sediments, Continental Erosion, Dissolved metals, Shallow Meteorites, Meteoritic Dust, Magnetic Decay, Rapid Cooling, Moon Recession, Moon Dust and Debris, Crater Creep, Hot Moon, Young Comets, Small Comets, Hot Planets, Solar Wind, Poynting-Robertson Effect, Supernova Remnants, Connected Galaxies, Unstable Galaxies, and Galaxy Clusters.
I believe I covered all of that in my big post. I'm quite sure you can't miss it.

Perhaps some creationists lie, but I have not known any that have. I have read numerous accounts of the lies and hoaxes that evolutionists have told in order to sell their snake oil to the masses. I know the originator of those lies is not God, but is instead the one who seeks to whom he can devour.
Have you heard of the Paluxy footprints? That was a hoax. I do not deny that some evolutionists have created hoaxes, as have some creationists, but I don't see why anybody will judge a whole theory on hoaxes.

The creation of God is just exactly as he describes in Genesis.
Except figurative.

Evolution scientists are either unbelievers in a spiritually fallen state, or believers who have denied the record in Genesis. I personally can not understand how a believer can accept evolution as truth, because to me, it is so obvious that evolution is a deception from the devil.
But there is still no reason to call evolutionists fallen when creationists are too. By the way, I think it is so obvious that evolution is the true way God made humans, but that doesn't help prove anything.

How do you explain the known hoaxes that have been passed onto school children as factual evidence of evolution? Explain the embryonic hoax, or the Lucy hoax, or the other “facts†that were proven hoaxes.
Elaborate on the hoaxes that you think are in school.

Evolution is a lie that is built on numerous lies. Darwin’s theory has been filleted by modern evolutionary scientists today, however, they continue to waddle aimlessly into their life’s work because they have wasted so much time as it is. I wonder if the halls of academia would continue to employ one who turned to creation science after being an evolutionist all of this time.
Creation is built on numerous lies, and evolution on facts.

The holy Spirit knows has the one interpretation of the Word of God, and it is the holy Spirit that teaches believers and guides them into all truth.
Only God knows the true interpretation. No humans do. Anybody who denies that fact and claims they have the one true interpretation is a liar and a deceiver.

The doctrinal debates occur when evolution was shown to be backed by two popes. The error of the papacy is fairly obvious to those of us who have studied the history of the same.
Doctrinal debates need not take place. I was merely saying that the Roman Catholic Church does in fact say that evolution is fine, yet I'm not using that as evidence.

The Big Bang is another of man’s inventions. God created the physical realm in six days, and he rested on the seventh. He could have created everything in one day, but his plan was to be shown as a template to man’s time on this earth. One day is as a thousand years to the Lord. Six days = Six thousand years and then the rest day; the one thousand year rest of the saints.
Six days could equal 13.7 billion years for all it matters.
 
It seems that Lewis W posted information while Sleeker did the typical retort of the evolutionist. First spew an ad hominem attack, assail by authority fallacy, and answer all factual points with negative, unproven quips designed for ridicule as opposed to scientific observation, and lastly, end with a link to the pro-evolution link of talk-origins.

I have seen this banter so many times I could probably recite all 8411 words from memory.

Perhaps the evolutionists will find something to add to their 150 year old myth. Of course they don't have to since they have the education system locked up with their humanistic, worldly, antiChrist teachings.
 
Sleeker said:
Six days could equal 13.7 billion years for all it matters.

Six days could equal 13.7 billion years to someone who believes a lie.

You really should study the creation in Genesis a little better. God created plants before he created the sun, moon, and stars. How many billion years could plants live without the sun? Oh nevermind, this is the part where you say that God must be speaking figuratively because your human mind can not understand the simplistic mode in which God has revealed his creation to man.

Evolution has no observations of plant life being before the sun, moon, and stars either. Which takes more faith; Evolution or creation? Evolution takes much more faith because there is no evidence of one animal kind evolving into another animal kind. Only within there own kind do animals procreate. At least that is what the creation story in Genesis says.

How many billion years will God use to create the new earth and new heavens as described in Revelation 21?
 
Solo said:
It seems that Lewis W posted information while Sleeker did the typical retort of the evolutionist.
He copied and pasted a 10,000 word document without giving a source. That is a show of extremely poor debating skills.

First spew an ad hominem attack
I made no ad hominem attack. I stated my opinion.

assail by authority fallacy
By doing what?

and answer all factual points with negative unproven quips designed for ridicule as opposed to scientific observation
I posted tons of scientific observation, while the copy and paste post provided almost none. The little they did provide was most often wrong and seriously out-dated.

and lastly, end with a link to the pro-evolution link of talk-origins.
Even if I did do that, it's much better than cluttering the thread up with a 10,000 word post. In most cases, I paraphrased it, gave some quoted evidence, and gave my source. Proper debating style.

I have seen this banter so many times I could probably recite all 8411 words from memory.
I haven't seen many 10,000 word copy and paste posts though. Most know that it is highly detrimental to the reputation of the debater responsible.

Perhaps the evolutionists will find something to add to their 150 year old myth. Of course they don't have to since they have the education system locked up with their humanistic, worldly, antiChrist teachings.
"I have seen this banter so many times I could probably recite all" of the "words from memory."

Six days could equal 13.7 billion years to someone who believes a lie.
I thought that Christians believed that time didn't matter to God. By the way, I'll go back on this quote:

Six days = Six thousand years and then the rest day; the one thousand year rest of the saints.
So how old is the Earth then? Six thousands years old, or just to create it, or just to create it and then more for afterwards?

You really should study the creation in Genesis a little better. God created plants before he created the sun, moon, and stars. How many billion years could plants live without the sun? Oh nevermind, this is the part where you say that God must be speaking figuratively because your human mind can not understand the simplistic mode in which God has revealed his creation to man.
Give me a short quote and I'll give you my opinion.

P.S.: You have a human mind too, so it's not too insulting.


Evolution takes much more faith because there is no evidence of one animal kind evolving into another animal kind.
I went over that in my big post.

Only within there own kind do animals procreate. At least that is what the creation story in Genesis says.
Yeah... And...?

How many billion years will God use to create the new earth and new heavens as described in Revelation 21?
The point being?
 
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

<In the beginning God created a place where his plan would be played out. The Bible teaches that before the foundation of the world, believers were chosen in Jesus.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Ephesians 1:3-4

God created the heavens, earth, animals, and plants for man.

Verse one describes that God created the heaven and the earth. The verses that follow give more details into this creation.>

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
<After God created the earth it was without form, and it was empty. Darkness was upon the face of the deep whereupon the Spirit of God moved on the waters of the earth.>

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

<God spoke and there was light by his word. Remember the Word became flesh and dwelt among men, was rejected by his own, and redeemed mankind from their sin. After God created the earth formless and empty he spoke for light to appear, and he divided the light from the darkness. He called light day and darkness night. The evening and the morning were the first day. There is no life created or evolved on this first day.>

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

<God spoke by his Word that there be a firmament in the midst of the waters that were upon the earth. This firmament divided waters above and below the heaven and explains the perfect climate that existed on the earth, and the massive amount of water that poured out of the heavens during the flood. The evening and the morning passed of the second day. There is no indication that God required more than one morning or one evening (one day) to divide the waters with the firmament of heaven.>

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. 11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

<God divided the waters under the heaven together into one place so that the dry land would appear. God spoke for the earth to bring forth grass, herb yielding seed, and fruit trees. Each plant type yielded itself after its own kind. This is detrimental to the theory of evolution which speaks of life coming from other forms of life instead of from its own kind. After the earth yielded plant life as God spoke it by his Word, was the end of the third day.>

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

<Perhaps God knew that some would be tempted to disbelieve the creation account in Genesis, so he threw a wrench in the works by creating plantlife before he created the sun, moon, and stars. He gave these lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night, and for signs, seasons, and for days, and years. These lights were created on the fourth day.>


20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. 21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. 23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

<God created life in the waters, and he created the birds, each one after its own kind. This verbiage refutes the evolutionary thought that God did not create animals to procreate after there own kind. After the creation of the water animals and flying creatures ended the fifth day.>

24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

<God finished his creation by creating every land animal each one after its own kind. He then created man in his own image. He did not create man in the image of an ape, donkey, amphibian, or any other evolutionary scheme. He created man in His own image. He created the plants and the animals for man. He gave each animal and man food from the plantlife. He told man and animals to multiply upon the earth. There was no death on the earth for God saw that everything was good. Animals and man all ate plantlife. This was all done on the sixth day>


If this portion of Genesis is literal as it reads then evolutionists have no scriptural backing, therefore, they must twist the meaning of this scripture saying that it is only figurativly speaking and that the literal meaning is not meant for the modern intellectual type. After all, mankind of the past lived in caves and was not as intelligent as we are today.
 
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Creation of stars, and then when the "lights in the firmament of the heaven" is created, the atmosphere finally cleared out enough to be visible.

By the way, what's up with the two different creation accounts? In the first account, man and woman are made last, but in the second account, man and human are created right after Earth is.

Also, I see you only responded to one of my points. (I asked for a small quote too.)
 
Sleeker said:
By the way, what's up with the two different creation accounts? In the first account, man and woman are made last, but in the second account, man and human are created right after Earth is.

Also, I see you only responded to one of my points. (I asked for a small quote too.)[/color]
Elementary my dear Sleeker, elementary.....Same creation account, more detail.
 
Solo said:
Elementary my dear Sleeker, elementary.....Same creation account, more detail.
Account one: Animals and plants before man.
Account two: Man before plants and animals.

That's not more detail. That's a contradiction.
 
Sleeker said:
Solo said:
Elementary my dear Sleeker, elementary.....Same creation account, more detail.
Account one: Animals and plants before man.
Account two: Man before plants and animals.

That's not more detail. That's a contradiction.
You have read wrong my friend. Plants were created on day three. Man and land animals were created on day six. No contradiction.
 
Solo said:
You have read wrong my friend. Plants were created on day three. Man and land animals were created on day six. No contradiction.
"The order of creation in Genesis 1 is: heaven and earth, light, vault of heaven (i.e., separation of earthly and heavenly waters), seas and dry land, plants, sun and stars, fish and birds, land animals, and last humans."

"The order of creation in Genesis 2 is: heaven and earth, man, trees and the Garden of Eden, animals and birds, woman."

http://www.cesame-nm.org/Viewpoint/cont ... ORIES.html

That's a complete contradiction.
 
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