[_ Old Earth _] Evolution; mechanism or worldview?

[Arch Angle]

let's see about this "duped" notion. Have I been duped?

1) List the observations that are available.
2) Link the observations to see how they inter relate , for example sea floor spreading and volcanoes.
3) come up with a possible story of how these observations are forming the things we see, such as the Himalayas.
4) Can we make predictions off of these observations? IE: move them forward or backward in time tosee what was or will be?
5) And do these predictions match observations. for example,sea floor spreading. Yes, the can measure sea floor spreading.

So I (we) have two stories to chose from.

1) God did it threw evolution The evidence is the bible and some of the above listed observations.
2) god did it by going "poof there it is". the evidence is The bible.


exactly how am I being duped when I make my choice?

Dupes is offering false information by another person to try and trick me to follow them?
Is being duped a person telling me to use what you know to make the best possible choice we can with what we have? With christ in mind.
Or, Is being duped telling someone that they have to ignore what they know to follow you. Kinda like that apple I read about. With christ in mind.

 

[Narwhalist]

For those of you who think evolution is somebody's wild imagination, have you ever looked at it to see what it's saying. Seems to me you are arguing against something, yet you know nothing of it's mechanisms.
Let's look at human and mouse DNA.
The order of genes along a chromosome is many times the same and we know this because the genome for humans and mice have been mapped. Now that the complee sequence of genes is available it is possible to identify in the spaces between the genes the remnants of many "jumping genes," genes that insert themselves randomly into the genome. Some of these "jumping genes" have acquired many mutations over time, thus are very different from the original gene, thus appear to be very old. These ancient genetic elements are often found in the same location in humans and mice. Interesting are the old genes that are truncated at precisely the same base pair at the time of their insertion, losing part of it's DNA sequence and probably function. Each one of these insertions and truncation acts like a fingerprint. Finding the same one in mice and humans is very strong evidence that this insertion must have occurred millions of years ago in a common ancestor to mice and humans.
This information I read in a book written by a Christian scientist, Francis Collins who was the head of the Human Genome Project responsible for mapping the human genome. This man is also a Christian.
One thing to remember, while I subscribe to Theistic Evolution, there are Adam and Eve. God imbued his image in them. I do believe Adam and Eve were a special creation but have no idea how it fits with evolved humans. I do realize they were created in the Garden of Eden, outside of the evolved earth and were thrown into the earth after they sinned. :D

 

[cupid dave]

I do believe Adam and Eve were a special creation but have no idea how it fits with evolved humans.
I do realize they were created in the Garden of Eden, outside of the evolved earth and were thrown into the earth after they sinned. :D

The creation of Adam and Eve was an Act-of-God.

From the chemical dust of the Earth, two of the normal 24 Ape chromosomes inside the womb of a surrogate mother were fused together to form a living soul that was the first born of a new species called man.
From that single Act-of-God, 22 more evolutions in the ascent of Modern Homo sapiens are listed in the genealogy of Genesis and in our present paleontology.

 

[Arch Angle]

was it the way you "create" teeth?

or the way you "vreate" a building?

 

[Stone-yarder]

Worldveiw, if you beleive Jesus Christ.
The Universe Is Only 6,000 Years Old

When Did God Create The Universe?

- The Bible tells us that Jesus Christ created everything.

- Jesus Christ certainly knows when He created the Universe!

- This information is provided in the Bible for those who seek to know.

- We need to do some very simple detective work to find out when the Universe was created.

Summary of the 6,000 Year-Old Date of the Universe

We believe that the clear teaching of the Bible, specifically Genesis Chapter 1 and Luke Chapter 3, teaches that:

- The whole Universe was created on Day One of the Six days of Creation (Genesis 1:1-5).

- The Hebrew words for "dusk" and "dawn" used in Genesis 1 are clearly referring to 24 hour periods of time, not millions of years (see below).

- Adam was created on Day Six of the Six Days of Creation (Genesis 1:27).

- Adam was "the son of God," not the son of a monkey (Luke 3:38).

- Jesus Christ was born 77 generations after Adam, which is a period of approximately 4,000 years (Luke 3:23-38).

- Jesus Christ was born approximately 2,000 years ago.

- Therefore Adam was born approximately 6,000 years ago.

- Adam was born at the beginning of the Creation, according to Jesus Christ in Mark 10:6 and Matthew 19:4.

- The whole Universe was therefore also created approximately 6,000 years ago.

Warning about human traditions

Jesus rebuked the Pharisees because of their traditional teaching Mark 7:13, "(you) make the Word of God of no effect through your tradition."

In the last 150 years many people in the Western world have taught that Genesis is incorrect.
In fact, Jesus quoted 25 times from Genesis.

- Was Jesus flawed in His understanding of the Origins of the Universe?

- Did Jesus not understand Evolution?

- Were Evolutionists present at the Origin of the Universe?

- Do Evolutionists think they know more than Jesus Christ?

- The Bible is perfectly clear if you have an inquiring mind and are not prejudiced by previous teaching on Evolution!

Detailed Study Of The 6,000 Year-old Date Of The Universe

The Bible clearly states says that the Universe, Life, and Man were all created over six literal days, about 6,000 years ago. According to the Bible God took six 6 literal days to create everything.

1. The Whole Universe Was Created On Day One Of The Six Days Of Creation

The Bible is perfectly clear that the Universe was created on the First Day of Creation:

Genesis 1:1-5: "In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth. The Earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day".

2. The Hebrew Words For "dusk" And "dawn" Used In Genesis 1 Are Clearly Referring To 24 Hour Periods Of Time, Not Millions Of Years

In Genesis 1:5, we read that "the evening and the morning were the first day". Similarly, each Day of Creation had an evening and a morning. Note that each day began with the evening, as is still practiced amongst Jewish people today.

- The Bible refers to 24 hour periods of time in each day

- The Bible refers to 24 hour periods of time in each of the Six Days of Creation.

- After each day, the Bible says "and the evening and the morning were the (first) day."

- Millions of years do not have evenings and mornings!
Many Christians insist that the six days of Genesis Chapter 1 are long periods of time.

- This makes them feel more comfortable, in light of supposed scientific "proof" of an "old" Universe.

The teaching that "Each day of Creation represents millions of years" a violation of Scripture

- The English word "evening" is the English translation of the Hebrew word "ereb" (Strong's reference 6153). The word "ereb" is used throughout the Old Testament, and always means: "evening" or "dusk."

- Similarly the English word "morning" is the translation of the Hebrew word "boqer" (Strong's reference 1242). The word "boqer" is used throughout the Old Testament and always means: "dawn" or "morning."

- It is simply not possible for the Hebrew words "ereb" and "boger" to mean millions of years.

The Fourth Commandment, and the reference to a 24 hour period of time

The Bible states that on the Seventh Day God rested. He said we should do the same! The Bible states in Exodus 20:8-11: "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labour and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work. For in six days the LORD made the Heavens and the Earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it."

- God is not talking about millions of years!

- God is talking about literal 24-hour days!

- God created the Heavens and the Earth in 6 literal 24-hour periods.

- During each 24 hour period, the sun descended below the horizon, known as "dusk".

- During each 24 hour period, the sun ascended above the horizon, known as "dawn".

- Only one dusk and dawn is mentioned for each 24 hour period of time.

- Millions of years would have millions of dusks and dawns, but this is not what the Bible teaches.

- On the 7th day, God rested, and this 24-hour period was called the Sabbath.

- The Sabbath has always been a 24-hour period.

- The Sabbath today still starts at 6 pm amongst Jewish people.

- The remaining Six Days of Creation are also 24-hour periods, since God is not seeking to confuse us all!

- God chose to create everything in six literal 24-hour periods, and rested on the seventh-24 hour period, in order to create a seven-day pattern, which is explained in The Bible Is Supernatural on this web site.

- Children are not confused by the Creation account!

- Only sceptical adults are confused, because of their pre-conceptions!

The Pattern of Sevens in the Created world

The Pattern of Sevens is seen throughout the natural world which God created. In the natural world, we see:

- 7 days of the week

- 7 colours of the rainbow

- 7 notes in music

- There were also originally 7 layers in the atmosphere.

Now, since the Flood of Noah, 4,400 years ago, there are only 6 layers in the atmosphere, since one of the levels came down as flood water, according to Genesis, which we discuss later.

3. Adam Was Created On Day Six Of The Six Days Of Creation

Genesis 1:27,31, "So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them…. Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day."

According to the above Scripture, Adam was created on the Sixth Day of Creation.

4. Adam Was "the Son Of God," (not The Son Of A Monkey)

The Genealogy of Jesus Christ

- Dr Luke was a medical doctor, and the Gospel of Luke is named after him.

- He records, in Luke Chapter 3, the family tree of Jesus Christ.

- According to Luke Chapter 3, there were 77 generations from God to Jesus Christ.

- Here are some names you might recognise in the following list: Jesus, Joseph, Isaac, Abraham, Noah, Methuselah, Seth, and Adam.

The Bible states in Luke 3:23-38: "Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, the son of Heli, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melchi, the son of Janna, the son of Joseph, the son of Mattathiah, the son of Amos, the son of Nahum, the son of Esli, the son of Naggai, the son of Maath, the son of Mattathiah, the son of Semei, the son of Joseph, the son of Judah, the son of Joannas, the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel, the son of Neri, the son of Melchi, the son of Addi, the son of Cosam, the son of Elmodam, the son of Er, the son of Jose, the son of Eliezer, the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Simeon, the son of Judah, the son of Joseph, the son of Jonan, the son of Eliakim, the son of Melea, the son of Menan, the son of Mattathah, the son of Nathan, the son of David, the son of Jesse, the son of Obed, the son of Boaz, the son of Salmon, the son of Nahshon, the son of Amminadab, the son of Ram, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah, the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor, the son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of Peleg, the son of Eber, the son of Shelah, the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech, the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel, the son of Cainan, the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God".

Important conclusion

The Bible states in Luke 3:38 that Adam was the son of God, not the son of a monkey!

5. Jesus Christ Was Born 77 Generations After Adam, Which Is A Period Of Approximately 4,000 Years

According to Luke 3; 23-38 there are 77 generations from God, through, Adam, Seth, Noah, Abraham, Isaac and Joseph to Jesus Christ.

The Number of Generations is 77, the numbers of Spiritual Perfection

The number Seven in the Bible is the number of Spiritual Perfection. 77 is obviously a very specific number of generations, directly under the control of the Holy Spirit.

The time interval between the Creation of Adam and the birth of Jesus Christ

- To obtain a rough figure for the time interval between the Creation of Adam and the Birth of Jesus Christ, let us make an estimate that each generation is approximately 50 years, allowing for the longer life-span of the patriarchs before Noah's Flood.

- It does not matter greatly how many years we chose for a generation, because we will still arrive at approximately the same conclusion!

- Please note that these dates are approximate!

- We need to multiply 77 generation by 50 years per generation:

77 GENERATIONS X 50 YEARS = 3,850 YEARS

Conclusion

There are approximately 4,000 years between the Creation of Adam and the Birth of Jesus Christ.

6. Jesus Christ Was Born Approximately 2,000 Years Ago.

There are approximately 2,000 years between the Birth of Jesus Christ and our present time.

- This article was written in A.D. 2006.

- The prefix A.D. stands for Anno Domini, which is Latin for "the Year of Our Lord".

- According to our dating system, there are approximately 2,000 years between the Birth of Jesus Christ and the present time.

7. Therefore Adam Was Born Approximately 6,000 Years Ago.

- Adam was created approximately 4,000 years before Jesus Christ, or 4,000 B.C.

- Jesus Christ was born approximately 2,000 years ago.

- Therefore, by simple addition, the time from Adam to now is:

4,000 YEARS + 2,000 YEARS = 6,000 YEARS

Conclusion

Adam was created approximately 6,000 years ago

8. Adam Was Born At The Beginning Of The Creation, According To Jesus Christ

- Jesus Christ clearly stated that the Universe, Life, and Man were all created at the Beginning of Creation, in Mark 10:6 and Matthew 19:4.

- Jesus said in Mark 10:6, "From the beginning of the Creation, God made them male and female."

- Jesus said in Matthew 19:4, "Have you not read that He who made them at the Beginning made them male and female?"

9. The Whole Universe Was Therefore Also Created Approximately 6,000 Years Ago.

- Adam and Eve were created at the beginning of the Creation.

- Adam and Eve were created 6,000 years ago, approximately.

- Therefore the whole Universe was created 6,000 years ago, at the same time as Adam and Eve.

- In fact Adam and Eve were created on Day Six, and the Universe was created on Day One.

- These days were both at the beginning of the Creation.

Conclusion

The whole Universe was created approximately 6,000 years ago

This Universe simply has to be young, unless Jesus Christ and Dr Luke were both liars.

Implications Of The 6,000 Year Old Planet Earth

- The Bible clearly states says that the Universe, Life, and Man were all created about 6,000 years ago.

- This is the clear teaching of the Bible.

- This brings the time scale of Creation into direct conflict with Evolution, and many compromising Christians too!

- The purpose of these two teachings on Creation and Evolution is to expose which one is incorrect!

http://www.freechristianteaching.org/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=14#axzz2MSIHscQI

 

[Sparkey]

Did I miss your citation? If you wish to copy-paste be certain that you include a note about where the original material came from.
Something like:

FREE CHRISTIAN TEACHING: Creation - the Genesis Account > The Universe Is Only 6,000 Years Old

Read more: http://www.freechristianteaching.org/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=14#ixzz2MSKdNAEL
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution Non-Commercial No Derivatives

That is what the Commons License requirements for quoting this article are. Attribution, Non-Commercial, No Derivatives.

Also, one more concern, addressed in section 2.8 of the Terms of Service:

2.8: Please keep posts down to a respectable length and provide source and/or links for your info. We want to respect copyrighted material. Plus, you stand a better chance of getting your post read if it contains a link with an excerpt from source that's relative to your point.

Refrain from all caps and bold, large fonts unless it is used sparingly to emphasise a point. Hotlinking of photos is PROHIBITED! Be sure to post your topic in the appropriate forum.. If you're not sure what forum to post your message in then please post it in the General Discussion Area or ask a Staff member.

 

[Arch Angle]

also the "facts" have to be data. Not a belief.

also stating the same piece of data over and over is stillone piece of data. Here, the bible. I can list my pieces of evidence like
1) bible. verse:
2) bible. verse:
3) bible. verse:

it is still one, and only one piece of evidence.

 

[Sparkey]

also the "facts" have to be data. Not a belief.

also stating the same piece of data over and over is stillone piece of data. Here, the bible. I can list my pieces of evidence like
1) bible. verse:
2) bible. verse:
3) bible. verse:

it is still one, and only one piece of evidence.

That one piece of evidence being the Word of God (not gonna debate) makes a difference to many, but since the Bible was written through many men, I'd question your statement on that basis too.

Part of what is being considered in this thread is a "Biblical Worldview" (by contrast). It would be very difficult to dispense with the Bible in this discussion, not sure we'd want to anyway, but especially not here, in this thread, in the Christianity and Science forum. ;)

 

[Arch Angle]

"word of God". is a faith statement. You believe the bible is the only piece of evidence that is needed. Youdon't have to debate it until you push it off as something more. Then I would never question your belief, I would question your "beliefs" over "this or that "belief".

Yes, the bible was written by many men. I agree with that. The book was written by men. These men did not have the information that we have today. So I see no need to take what they said as "literal" truth. But I also think they are as "true"as we are today in many ways.

And you know, they (we) both can be mostly right ya know.

example: man came from the dust of the earth.

That is true enough. Both you and I believe this I think. I only hold firm to the notion that god did it through evolution. Even the bible states that he did it threw changes in time, but the men just flip a few, minor, details. IMHO anyway.

 

[Sparkey]

also the "facts" have to be data. Not a belief.

also stating the same piece of data over and over is stillone piece of data. Here, the bible. I can list my pieces of evidence like
1) bible. verse:
2) bible. verse:
3) bible. verse:

it is still one, and only one piece of evidence.

My reply corrected the comment that the entire bible was "one and only one" piece of evidence.

 

[Grazer]

I forgot this was still going lol

I started this thread not to discuss the evidence for/against evolution. It was designed to clear up some misunderstandings about what evolution is and isn't. In order to have the discussion about whether something is true or false, you need to know what it is you're discussing

 

[Arch Angle]

Not me grazer. in fact I do much better when I have no idea what I amtalking about. In my own mind that is. Besides, I hate whenfacts get in the way of my opinions.

 

[Arch Angle]

My reply corrected the comment that the entire bible was "one and only one" piece of evidence.

then we can limit the creation story to the book of genius? who wrote it again?

 

[Sparkey]

then we can limit the creation story to the book of genius? who wrote it again?

I've already stated that I'm not going to debate. Let me now suggest we return to the discussion centered on Evolution, be it a "mechanism" or a "worldview". You may refer to the post #39 for my part of this so far.

 

[Arch Angle]

back we go, to the shallow end.

Evolution is clearly neither. 'evolution"is a unifying theory that is a consequence of a "world view" and many mechanisms.

The world view that 'evolution" falls out of is

"Gods hides nothing, and by giving us clues, we can find out that he works in knowable and predictable ways".

using this as a world view, the clues of how he did it reveal themselves. evolution is just a storyline that links all the pieces of data. We call this a "unifying theory". That being a story that combines the clues to see how they inter relate. That does notimply 'sole truth" or "infallible theory". It has nothing to do with removing God, quite the opposite, it asks you to know god.

now, what world view would "poof there it is" in 6 days fall outof?


mechanisms?

Again, evolution is not a "thing", it includes many mechanisms. Sea floor spreading has a mechanism. Deposition rates have mechanisms. "evolution" is not a single process. It is more like the word"system", like "filter system of a pool". The pump has a mechanism. the intake vale has a "mechanism. Together they make the filter system. the world view of that would be "clean water in pools, please".

 

[cupid dave]

let's see about this "duped" notion. Have I been duped?

1) List the observations that are available.
2) Link the observations to see how they inter relate , for example sea floor spreading and volcanoes.
3) come up with a possible story of how these observations are forming the things we see, such as the Himalayas.
4) Can we make predictions off of these observations? IE: move them forward or backward in time tosee what was or will be?
5) And do these predictions match observations. for example,sea floor spreading. Yes, the can measure sea floor spreading.

So I (we) have two stories to chose from.

1) God did it threw evolution The evidence is the bible and some of the above listed observations.
2) god did it by going "poof there it is". the evidence is The bible.


exactly how am I being duped when I make my choice?

Dupes is offering false information by another person to try and trick me to follow them?
Is being duped a person telling me to use what you know to make the best possible choice we can with what we have? With christ in mind.
Or, Is being duped telling someone that they have to ignore what they know to follow you. Kinda like that apple I read about. With christ in mind.

Yes, you are essentially paraphrasing the Scientific Method of reasoning.
This method is the only sure way we can know things make sense.

This began with Rene Descartes who doubted everything as he tried to make sense of just existence.
He was going through rather deep spiritual re-evaluation of his own previous rather flamboyant and fun focused being.

He realized that he had no way of ascertaining anything at all which could not be question and disputed.
But as he was preoccupied by those thoughts, he realized that the one and only thing that was self evident and which he could never doubt was this thinking he was doing.

That he was thinking about these ideas at all was proof that he existed, and that could not be doubted.
But he realizedthat the thinking existed, not necessarily his body.

Wate also recognized was that things (messagers outside of himself) were forcing thoughts into his thinking. Pain and pleasure was arriving along with sensory inputs which seem to reinforce each other, in that what he saw, he could also verify by what nhear or felt.

This supported the next great fundamental proof that he was not alone, that some other entity also "was," i.e.; existed.
At first, sure only that he existed, these inputs unbidden and from outside of his own thinking cried out to him, "I am."

It was that presence, this companion to his own existence, that he realized was the almighty singular "Other" thing which held the keys of life and death, was his master, and to which he must bow down.

Essentially, by means of the Scientific method, Rene Descartes found this Father of Everything we call God.


(The book wherein Descartes wrote all these things," The Rule of the Mind," was published but immediately completely bought "out-of-stock" by the RCC, and it is stil in the Vatican to this day, undistributed and never circulated.)