[_ Old Earth _] Evolution

[Arch Angle]

So, why did the pigeon had not become intelligent even after the "evolution time lines" of millions of years today?

why is your ear not an eyeball? they both came from the same cell.

 

[cupid dave]

Mostly I Agree,

Calling them stupid back then is like calling Newton stupid becausehe couldn't get mercury's orbit down. For the information they had at the time, they almost hit the nail on thehead. "...from dirt..."? wow,amazing insight. I don't understand whypeople don't let the whole 6-day thing go. Jesus changed his religious stance based on new observations, why can'twe?

I learnt from Jesus to follow god with your eyes open. That god is more than you know and God wants youlearn as much as you can. "locking" god into a book is offering god as an apple. I will bite, but only because it is a fruitof the garden and it helps clean my teeth after a meal. I will not take a bite of the apple (bible)when offered as the only thing need to know god. Jesus was against that. the serpant did that once already, we don't have to bite again.

I agree again.

Jesus called the NT the holy comforter because he d-said it would lead people inti the truth, which he personified asthe way men need face Life if they want to be saved from the lies that imorison them, or for the species itself to avoid the second death of extinction.

He summed up both the NT and the OT with just the word, i.e.; Truth.

He also said that Truth is an entity that has accumulated phylogenetically over the history of our species, arisingfrom actual life experienced by our ancient of ancient ancestors.
So, we have within us, in the kingdom within, an archetypal source of what is true and we can sort things out by seeking the Truth nd repressing our own self rationalizations that defy the truth.

We saw the example in America, when the Truth about "separate but equal" was challenged by Rev Martin Luther king and people opposed him and what he said.
His death was the sacrifice that brought the sins of the previous generation to mind as the America of today recognizes it for the pies it had been.
Americans, when pressed to make a decision for Truth or falsehood, KNEW the difference.

This is Christianity in action, when people stand up for the Truth which is heartfelt and fearless.
We saw it whenthe Berlin Wall came down.
We saw it at Teiman Square, and in the Arab Spring.
We are watching it in Syria.

Christ, the Truth, is rising up all over the ever smaller Global Vilage.

 

[cupid dave]

I am kind of the same.

I see the problem being people, not religion or science.

What seems strange is that almost half the world now is well informed and science literate to the point that the "old song" of the church people just does not "float" any longer.
Why they insist upon it and defend that archaic medieval teaching that so poorly explains Genesis and aligns science and knowledge against what they long had found acceptable is madness since it locks ration people out of the church which they are trying so hard to build up.

And none of it has to do with the more specific intentions and all so important behavioral modifications the Bible works to bring about.

 

[Barbarian]

Most of these do not constitute actual proof of intelligence nor any greater significance because, animals can be easily trained to use these tools ... have you seen these in circus?

Except chimpanzees figured out the tool technology for termites with no human help involved. In fact, one chimp actually tried to show a human how to do it.

I am not talking about these tricks of training and show as an observation to prove a point.

You're just wrong about tool use by chimps. And note, that humans weren't able to do it as capably as the chimps.

 

[Arch Angle]

cupid,

"holy comforter".
I call it a 'boat" on the waters of the holy spirit. When you no longer need the boat, you understand the water and you are the same. When you truly reach yonder shore, there is no need to "burn" the boat (like a leg humping atheist tries too),but rather you may just leave it behind ... or like christ ... offer it another that may need it.

like a persons height, "vision" is more of a continuum. We are 1/2 a step away from no choice in our next action. Do you understand that notion? If you do, it is why "mystics" are feared by some. When in fact, they should be the leaders.

 

[cupid dave]

cupid,

"holy comforter".
I call it a 'boat" on the waters of the holy spirit. When you no longer need the boat, you understand the water and you are the same. When you truly reach yonder shore, there is no need to "burn" the boat (like a leg humping atheist tries too),but rather you may just leave it behind ... or like christ ... offer it another that may need it.

like a persons height, "vision" is more of a continuum. We are 1/2 a step away from no choice in our next action. Do you understand that notion? If you do, it is why "mystics" are feared by some. When in fact, they should be the leaders.

Scripture seems to support you ingeneral here,...


Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

I can see how once the end does come, and people generally are aware that the sum of the NT message was that Truth is the son of God, the light ino the real world, and the way by which men must live their life that the NT will have comforted the Christian movement until then.

It can still be viewed and honored as Gospel, and be used by every generation thereafter as a primer for small kids, and continue to serve the church.
And, there is much iin the NT which still needs be highlighted for the important things it has to disclose to us.

Inside the NT is a detailed list of ideas necessary to the conversion f the Jews to christ.So I am not so sure we will have seen the last of it simply becuase we personally, have an understanding ourselves.


Mark 4:11
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

 

[Arch Angle]

of course it does,
it is from the holy spirit.

 

[felix]

why is your ear not an eyeball? they both came from the same cell.

Because, both are designed well by my Creator and they are not evolved.

 

[felix]

Except chimpanzees figured out the tool technology for termites with no human help involved. In fact, one chimp actually tried to show a human how to do it.

You're just wrong about tool use by chimps. And note, that humans weren't able to do it as capably as the chimps.

Let me know if any chimp had broken the 3 step tool barrier.

If any animal had broken this barrier, then it can "literally" do anything a human can. It is like a chess game where you had to visualize more moves in your mind before even making a single move. It is also like driving where you need to judge the road, watch traffic signals and then use not only the steering but also adjust the accelerator based on what speed you need to go and also use brake when needed.

Chimps and humans had lived side by side in many remote villages for 1000s of years. Wonder why they haven't learnt to use anything humans use for 1000s of years? If you among an advanced alien civilization (just for the sake of illustration) how long does it take for you to figure out how each alien machine works? Millions of years?

 

[Arch Angle]

lol,

You have eaten the apple.

It's ok though ... It can be no other way.

 

[cupid dave]

Because, both are designed well by my Creator and they are not evolved.

How do you diffeerentiate between God using a Spontaneous Geneation for every single specie and God using his Natural Laws as the tools for evolving slowly into another species????s

 

[Barbarian]

Let me know if any chimp had broken the 3 step tool barrier.

So the answer is that chimps can make tools that are better than those humans can make, and use them better than humans can. That seems like a pretty good accomplishment. Chimps don't need to do much in the way of tools for their life style, but when they have to, they do.

Pretty easy. We're smarter than they are in most ways and more dextrous in some ways. But it's a difference in degree.

 

[felix]

So the answer is that chimps can make tools that are better than those humans can make, and use them better than humans can. That seems like a pretty good accomplishment. Chimps don't need to do much in the way of tools for their life style, but when they have to, they do.

Pretty easy. We're smarter than they are in most ways and more dextrous in some ways. But it's a difference in degree.

Even a crow can make a tool. Birds can build nests and even ants and bees and built their homes which humans can't. A spider can build a web better than you. It doesn't prove anything what I asked for.

3 step tool barrier will define intelligence.

 

[felix]

How do you diffeerentiate between God using a Spontaneous Geneation for every single specie and God using his Natural Laws as the tools for evolving slowly into another species????s

Because, God is not dependent on any tools for His creation nor dependent on the delay cause by any tools.

God didn't said, let us make man in our own image.. and oh wait.. I had to wait for 1 million years for him to evolve.. ok, I will wait.. and finally, after years of waiting was fruitful, here comes Adam.

I do not worship such a God neither the God of Bible was dependent on any tools for Creation.

Gen 1:3 Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.
Was the above statement of God used for Creation any different from the below statement?
Gen 1:24 Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, [each] according to its kind"; and it was so.

Just because you don't believe the Bible doesn't mean Bible had to bend to your beliefs.

 

[Arch Angle]

We can leave out how you feel about it. When determineing the story creation we don't need whatyou need god to be. We are just talkingabout how he did it.

God said let there be light.

"big bang" = light

god said let the earth "form"

Clumps of material gathered together = formed the earth

"..let the earth bring forth the living creatures ... = evolution.

Now we list the evidence for "poof there it is"?
can you offer 3 pieces that can show it all "just appeared"?

 

[felix]

We can leave out how you feel about it. When determineing the story creation we don't need whatyou need god to be. We are just talkingabout how he did it.

God said let there be light.

"big bang" = light

god said let the earth "form"

Clumps of material gathered together = formed the earth

"..let the earth bring forth the living creatures ... = evolution.

Now we list the evidence for "poof there it is"?
can you offer 3 pieces that can show it all "just appeared"?

What you don't realize is that, heavens and earth was already created even before light was created.

 

[Adam]

Because, God is not dependent on any tools for His creation nor dependent on the delay cause by any tools.

God didn't said, let us make man in our own image.. and oh wait.. I had to wait for 1 million years for him to evolve.. ok, I will wait.. and finally, after years of waiting was fruitful, here comes Adam.

I do not worship such a God neither the God of Bible was dependent on any tools for Creation.

Gen 1:3 Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.
Was the above statement of God used for Creation any different from the below statement?
Gen 1:24 Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, [each] according to its kind"; and it was so.

Just because you don't believe the Bible doesn't mean Bible had to bend to your beliefs.

Here is a question:

Why are you so hung up on animals using 3 or more tools to accomplish goals, when you admit that God needed no tools to perform such great things?


On one hand you are claiming that multitool use is necessary to demonstrate some kind of superiority and on the other hand you are claiming that less tools to accomplish goals is preferable.

 

[felix]

Here is a question:

Why are you so hung up on animals using 3 or more tools to accomplish goals, when you admit that God needed no tools to perform such great things?

On one hand you are claiming that multitool use is necessary to demonstrate some kind of superiority and on the other hand you are claiming that less tools to accomplish goals is preferable.

The usage of 3 tools or more is a test of intelligence. Animals are not creating anything nor any animal is a god. God needed no tools because, if He requires one, then He is not God - which shows the inability and dependence of something that is already created.

Btw, when did I say: less tools to accomplish goals is preferable ??

 

[Adam]

Contrary to what you assume using three tools instead of two means in terms of intelligence, if it takes one person 3 tools to solve a problem that another person solves with two, one, or no tools, which person is more intelligent?

 

[felix]

Contrary to what you assume using three tools instead of two means in terms of intelligence, if it takes one person 3 tools to solve a problem that another person solves with two, one, or no tools, which person is more intelligent?

"three-tool problem" is not my invention. It is a standard problem solving test for intelligence.
The only animal (or to be accurate bird) that solved it was crow, but that too was not without 'training". Ref: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19654861

"Three-tool problem" cannot be solved using one or two tools. Just like you can't walk over oceans - but you need to be intelligent enough to catch a cruise or fly over by a plane. if you can fly, and solve the problem, may be you are not a human! If you can swim under may be you are a fish. I know who you are!! a flying monkey or a mermaid