[_ Old Earth _] Evolution

[VirginShallConceive]

And since Sparrow has shed some light on it, Barbarian, you have contributed a lot over the years. Sparrow's acknowledgment of you in the previous post might be as close as we can get to a "Lifetime Achievement Award".

Isn't that what they give, at the Academy Awards, to washed-up actors who never got an Academy Award?

:toofunny


Yeah, but you're not washed-up. You're just gettin' warmed up.

 

[Vaccine]

Well thank you for taking the time to enlighten me. To begin, here is what I know about Darwin's theory:

1. There occurs naturally (on its own) variation in any population.
2. These variations can be inherited.
3. There is competition for resources and only the fittest survive.
4. In any given population, over time there can be descent with modifications.

In theory, this transformed life from its beginnings until now. From what I understand of punctuated equilibrium, it contrasts gradualism in that changes occur suddenly over short periods of time. From what I understand of neutralist theories, there are changes on the molecular level caused by the few mutant genes that don't kill an organism.

Before I take you on as my teacher, I have a few questions for you:

1. Do you believe in God?
2. Do you believe the origin of life was a miracle by God or happened on its own?
3. Do you believe life went from its simple beginnings to what we know today on its own or was God involved?

-Vaccine

 

[cupid dave]

1) Do you believe the origin of life was a miracle by God or happened on its own?
2) Do you believe life went from its simple beginnings to what we know today on its own or was God involved?

The Only difference between Creationism and Theistic Evolution Bible interpretation Genesis in this regard is that Science confirms that by and Act-of-God through Spontaneous Generation of the first sprouts of life all the present plants and animals we see today came into existence, whereas the Creationism argument is that every single animal and plant was, itself, individually Spontaneously Generated
.

Some "Half n Half" creationism arguments have come to accept what they call micro-evolution, or a limited degree of one species arising from another on the condition that the two species are in the same taxonomic Family.
I believe they may also accept hybrids as another acceptable way that God visibly today allows the evolution of a new species.


Since Theistic Evolution Bible readers understand that Truth is the messiah, and son of the Force behind the ever unfolding next frame of Reality, it follows that God, by this description, is involved totally in the process of eternal life for every species, demanding that every species adapt to His will as the environment changes continually.





John 14:6 Jesus saithunto him, "I am the truth,"… the way, and the life: no man cometh unto theFather, but by me.

 

[Sparkey]

Since Theistic Evolution Bible readers understand that Truth is the messiah, and son of the Force behind the ever unfolding next frame of Reality...

I've heard you speak of this and simply don't agree with your view, as you know.

But do carry on.

 

[cupid dave]

Since Theistic Evolution Bible readers understand that Truth is the messiah, and son of the Force behind the ever unfolding next frame of Reality...

I've heard you speak of this and simply don't agree with your view, as you know.

But do carry on.

cupid dave


Since Theistic Evolution Bible readers understand that Truth is the messiah, and son of the Force behind the ever unfolding next frame of Reality...



I've heard you speak of this and simply don't agree with your view, as you know.

But do carry on.

Yes, I know.
Christians have erroneously identified Christ with Love, which misleads the church and fosters the bleeding hearted liberalism that turn Christianity into a "just be nice to everyone" religion.

But Jesus said the sum of the Torah and the prophets was to love, hence he clearly came to establish something that augmented that long preached Jewish Law.

 

[Adam]

Again, as one who is an adherent to the theistic evolutionary perspective, I must ask that you desist conflating your own worldview with the theistic evolution worldview. Your claims do not represent our position.

 

[Barbarian]

Well thank you for taking the time to enlighten me. To begin, here is what I know about Darwin's theory:

There occurs naturally (on its own) variation in any population.
These variations can be inherited.
There is competition for resources and only the fittest survive.
In any given population, over time there can be descent with modifications.

Not too far off.

1. More are born than can live
2. All are slightly different than their parents.
3. Some of these differences make it more likely that an organism will live long enough to reproduce.
4. Natural selection will tend to preserve such favorable changes, and the changes accumulate over time, increasing fitness.

In theory, this transformed life from its beginnings until now. From what I understand of punctuated equilibrium, it contrasts gradualism in that changes occur suddenly over short periods of time. From what I understand of neutralist theories, there are changes on the molecular level caused by the few mutant genes that don't kill an organism.

"Suddenly" meaning "thousands of years, instead of millions of years." And, of course, the vast majority of mutations don't do much of anything for or against survival.

Before I take you on as my teacher, I have a few questions for you:

Do you believe in God?

I do, but it won't matter if you don't. Evolutionary theory depends on evidence, not faith. Atheists can accept evolutionary theory just as easily as Christians.

Do you believe the origin of life was a miracle by God or happened on its own?

God says the Earth brought forth living things as He intended. So he used nature to do that.

Do you believe life went from its simple beginnings to what we know today on its own or was God involved?

This requires a bit of explanation. You see, Christians believe God is the Lord of creation. He's intimately involved with every bit of nature; if He took His mind from us, we wouldn't even exist.

So for a Christian, that question really isn't meaningful.

 

[Vaccine]

God says the Earth brought forth living things as He intended. So he used nature to do that.

CD had commented on spontaneous generation. I want to understand this point. When you said the Earth brought forth life as God intended, do you mean the 1st life form was made by a natural process? Or a supernatural one such as God picked up a handful of dirt and made the 1st life form?

 

[Barbarian]

CD had commented on spontaneous generation. I want to understand this point. When you said the Earth brought forth life as God intended, do you mean the 1st life form was made by a natural process?

So He says.

Or a supernatural one such as God picked up a handful of dirt and made the 1st life form?

That's not what He says:
Genesis 1:24 And God said: Let the earth bring forth the living creature in its kind, cattle and creeping things, and beasts of the earth, according to their kinds. And it was so done.

Like most things in this world, God used nature to make life.

 

[Vaccine]

I think we have more in common than I thought. I apologize if I came on too strong. If I understand what you are saying, you take genesis literally and believe the earth brought forth life. I too take genesis literally. I think where my belief differs from yours is I don't believe the earth has any power or natural process to produce life, rather the power is in God speaking.

 

[cupid dave]

I think we have more in common than I thought. I apologize if I came on too strong. If I understand what you are saying, you take genesis literally and believe the earth brought forth life. I too take genesis literally. I think where my belief differs from yours is I don't believe the earth has any power or natural process to produce life, rather the power is in God speaking.

Of course this whole amazing and strange experience we are born into is the work of the God, whose Natural Laws are the spirit behind the next ever unfolding next frame of Reality.
All I am saying and all that Barbarian seems to be saying, I think, is that we can rationally understand how God must have accomplished the things we read about in Genesis.

We now see how the Natural Laws are the tools of God.

 

[Vaccine]

This next reality? So you are saying this reality is our physical life, the next reality is our spiritual life? It makes sense. Now we see darkly, then we shall see clearly.

I don't doubt God uses nature as his tools the vast majority of the time. But as far as I know nothing in nature exists that can assemble life. I think the origin of life is one of those special times God set aside nature and did something supernatural like speaking life into existence. “No hypothesis has come close to explaining how information necessary to life's origin arose by naturalistic means”.- Steven Meyer PhD.

 

[Barbarian]

Re: Evolution

I think we have more in common than I thought. I apologize if I came on too strong. If I understand what you are saying, you take genesis literally and believe the earth brought forth life. I too take genesis literally. I think where my belief differs from yours is I don't believe the earth has any power or natural process to produce life, rather the power is in God speaking.

Why should we suppose God didn't do it right the first time? He doesn't intervene in nature because He has to. He didn't make any mistakes, or need to make adjustments later. He does miracles, not out of necessity, but to teach us something.

 

[Vaccine]

I don't knwo what do you mean by "the first time"?

 

[cupid dave]

This next reality? So you are saying this reality is our physical life, the next reality is our spiritual life? It makes sense. Now we see darkly, then we shall see clearly.

I don't doubt God uses nature as his tools the vast majority of the time. But as far as I know nothing in nature exists that can assemble life. I think the origin of life is one of those special times God set aside nature and did something supernatural like speaking life into existence. “No hypothesis has come close to explaining how information necessary to life's origin arose by naturalistic means”.- Steven Meyer PhD.

Well I don't disagree with you so much on this sudden rather unexplainable Spontaneous Generation of the first sprouts of life on Earth, because Science has had great difficulty in replicating or even hypothesizing the initial conditions under which the Vital Force, or that essence we call Spirit appeared.
It is interesting also that we are searching for Extra Terrestrial life elsewhere.
If we discover ET, then it will support the general science belief, that Life can and does naturally appear under the right environment conditions.
It remains a mystery for now.

And,... my interest is not in backing Science, but in backing Genesis.
My interest is totally focused on demonstrating that what Genesis says actually can be understood to correspond with what Science now tells us.
I make no effort nor attempt to infer that Science will continue to explain everything we read in the Bible.

I am content to argue and show that what Science has done to date is support the Bible, even certify things stated in the scriptures which could not have been known or even imagined until this Age.

 

[cupid dave]

He didn't make any mistakes, or need to make adjustments later. He does miracles, not out of necessity, but to teach us something.

I redefine the idea of "miracle" by pointing out that both scripture and Science agree, again,... in that the Natural Law of Probability explains "miracles" as those events which do occur, even though the threshold for such a "possibility" is "miraculously" low.


Matthew 19:26
But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

 

[Barbarian]

I don't knwo what do you mean by "the first time"?

He created nature for His purposes. Why is it so surprising when nature functions as He intended?

 

[Vaccine]

Well Idon't disagree with you so much on this sudden rather unexplainableSpontaneous Generation of the first sprouts of life on Earth, becauseScience has had great difficulty in replicating or even hypothesizingthe initial conditions under which the Vital Force, or that essencewe call Spirit appeared.
It is interesting also that we aresearching for Extra Terrestrial life elsewhere.
If we discover ET,then it will support the general science belief, that Life can anddoes naturally appear under the right environment conditions.
Itremains a mystery for now.

And,... my interest is not inbacking Science, but in backing Genesis.
My interest is totallyfocused on demonstrating that what Genesis says actually can beunderstood to correspond with what Science now tells us.
I make noeffort nor attempt to infer that Science will continue to explaineverything we read in the Bible.

I am content to argue andshow that what Science has done to date is support the Bible, evencertify things stated in the scriptures which could not have beenknown or even imagined until this Age.

I have the same interest. I feel Genesis is supported by what science tells us. I think where my beliefs differ is how the theories of evolution and intelligent design fit in. Darwin's theory assumes life therefore says nothing about the origin of life. Which is where the theory of intelligent design comes in to offer an explanation for the origin of life.

Why is it so surprising when nature functions as He intended?

I'm not surprised when nature functions as he intended, but I don't know if we define “as he intended” the same way.
​

 

[Barbarian]

I have the same interest. I feel Genesis is supported by what science tells us. I think where my beliefs differ is how the theories of evolution and intelligent design fit in. Darwin's theory assumes life therefore says nothing about the origin of life. Which is where the theory of intelligent design comes in to offer an explanation for the origin of life.

The problem with "maybe a space alien designed life" is that it doesn't provide any useful explanation.

Michael Behe, author of Darwin's Black Box

"Although intelligent design fits comfortably with a belief in God, it doesn't require it, because the scientific theory doesn't tell you who the designer is. While most people - including myself - will think the designer is God, some people might think that the designer was a space alien or something odd like that."
Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, 02/08/01

A belief that equally fits God or E.T. into creation is not really an explanation at all.

Barbarian asks:
Why is it so surprising when nature functions as He intended?

I'm not surprised when nature functions as he intended, but I don't know if we define “as he intended†the same way.

I mean, for example, that God created nature to produce life, as it did. That's a religious belief. Scientists are in the process of figuring out how it happened.

 

[cupid dave]

I feel Genesis is supported by what science tells us. I think where my beliefs differ is how the theories of evolution and intelligent design fit in. Darwin's theory assumes life therefore says nothing about the origin of life.

Which is where the theory of intelligent design comes in to offer an explanation for the origin of life.

Mmm,... Genesis says nothing about the process which created the first Spontaneous Generations.

Genesis merely notes that whatever the process was, it was initiated between the 3rd evening of the Archean Era and the dawning of the earliest Proterozoic era if one accepts the six Geological layers that record the History of the Earth as the durations called "days."

That is my point, too.
The churches are chasing away proselytites by insisting that they are describing HOW things happened, extrapolating from the mere statements in Genesis that these things DID happen.