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[_ Old Earth _] Evolution

Oh quit nitpicking sintax.

Anyway, I thought I heard about supposed evidence for lizard to ape evolution. I think it was years ago, its probably outdated or maybe i heard lizard to rat or sumthin I dunno. whatever.

But how would lizard to ape be against evolution? A change from liz to ape is quite a change that would be considered evolution right?

I don't know, but I don't believe in non-senses like these.
 
It's not nitpicking when I point out a fallacious argument you're using.

Either way lizards did not evolve into apes.
If evidence was found that showed lizards changed directly into apes it would throw everything about evolution into doubt, because that is most certainly not evolutionary change.

The common ancestor of all mammals supposedly in the dimetrodon family of dinosaurs, evidenced by the similar structure of their teeth with later warmblooded furry sauroid and eventually with protorats. From these the mammal family formed.

Lizard to ape is perposterous and not evolution.
 
Droopfeather said:
Oh quit nitpicking sintax.

Anyway, I thought I heard about supposed evidence for lizard to ape evolution. I think it was years ago, its probably outdated or maybe i heard lizard to rat or sumthin I dunno. whatever.

But how would lizard to ape be against evolution? A change from liz to ape is quite a change that would be considered evolution right?

I don't know, but I don't believe in non-senses like these.
Absolutely not. If a lizard ever turned into an ape, that would be strong evidence for some kind of higher power, or wicked sorcery. LOL!
 
I think its all in the definition.[/quote]

here's a definition from the glossary of one of my old anthro text books:
the transformation of species of organic life over long periods of time. anthropologists study both the cultural and biological evolution of the human species.

now you can take the things people have said and say it depends on the interpretation of that.
right under 'evolution' is 'evolutionary forces':
the mechanisms that can cause changes in allele frequencies from one generation to the next. the four evolutionary forces are: mutation, natural selection, genetic drift and gene flow.
in my opinion, evolution is just a fancy word for change which is why i cannot see a problem with most of evolutionary theory for christians because to deny that the world and it's organisms have not changed since
creation is just being willfully blind in accordance to what human ideas of perfection are; ie. God's creation was perfect and doesn't need to change. i submit that we have no idea what perfection is.
 
Evolution between kinds (e.g. ape to man) is a false theory, not backed up by any hard scientific evedence, only scientific fantasy. Adaptation within a kind is true, though it is a genetic information losing process. What you are calling micro evolution, is not evolution at all, it is adaptation. All known and documented adaptations, are genetic information losing processes, that is, that with the made adapatation comes a loss of genetic information.

Natural selection is also an information losing process, not only does scientific evidence show this, but also common sense proves it too. If you lose out in natural selection, then your genetic information is lost.

In fact there are no found adaptations that gain genetic information not found in the parents. That is why scientist like Richard Dawkins have back tracked a bit, realising that the only evidences we have point to de-evoluting system from a more perfect point. I.e. the further back in time we go, the more genetic information the cells had (not the other way around, as evolution requires). This allows for the great variety that we have in species today. With this thought such scientists have moved to the view that if one goes far enough back in time, then then the cell may have enough genetic information for more than one kind, such that two or more kinds can de-evolve from the information contained in one ancestorial cell. The problem with this theory is that the cells need to be more and more complex the further back in time one goes (This is in agreement with current data).

But this causes pure evolutionists have a big problem. That is that they require the first cell to form by chance, and it must be complex. So that question is, could the first cell have evolved? Unfortunately for the evolutionist. Left to time, chance, and their chemical properties, the bases of DNA and amino acids (the so called building blocks of life) would react in ways that would prevent, not promote, the evolution of life. In the same way, reactions among molecules in Stanley Miller's famous "spark chamber" would destroy any hope of producing life. Miller in his spark chamber, used raw materials and electrical sparks to produce amino acids and other simple molecules. Although his work was brilliant, there are some fundamental flaws with it. He left out oxygen, not because of scientific evidence, but because he knew that it would destroy the very molecules he was trying to produce. Is it at all then possible that this could have occurred in water? No, the two prime gases in Millers spark chamber, methane and ammonia, could not have been present in large amounts. The ammonia would be dissolved in the oceans, and the methane should be found stuck to ancient sedimentary clays (and it's not there!).

Knowing that amino acids can not form without help. Miller used an electric spark to cause the molecules to combine, and that works. The problem with this is that the same electric spark that puts amino acids together also tears them apart. In fact, it's much better at destroying them than making them, meaning, few if any amino acids would actually accumulate in the spark chamber. Miller knew that this would happen and so to compensate for it, he drew the gases out of the spark chamber and into a "trap". Although this would save the amino acids from destruction by the sparks, it is an action that requires intervention by informed intelligence, thus causing another problem for the evolutionist.

Finally, Millers experiment gave him the wrong type of amino acids for life to occur. The proteins in living cells are made of only certain kinds of amino acids, those that are "alpha" (short) and "left-handed." Miller's "primordial soup" contained many long (beta, gamma, delta) amino acids and equal numbers of both right and left-handed forms. The problem is, just one long or right-handed amino acid inserted into a chain of short, left-handed amino acids would prevent the coiling and folding necessary for proper protein function. What Miller actually produced was a seething brew of potent poisons that would absolutely destroy any hope for the chemical evolution of life. Living systems must constantly repair the chemical damage done to them, and when biological order loses out to inherent chemical processes, death results (even though a dead body has all the right molecules in the right places in the right amounts at the right times - almost!).

Evolutionists, can not account for the first cell with hard scientific evidences that their theories are plausable. So how about those who believe that God created the universe, and that He created the first complex cell, and then allowed the a measure of time for evolution (or more to the point de-evolution) to take place?

Well this causes a doctrinal problem, namely this, that there had to be death and suffering before the fall! This goes against Scripture!

It is not beyond God to create the earth, this universe, and all that is within it in 6 real days. In fact, what Genesis says, is complemented with todays evidences.

For those of you that seem to think that there is hard evidence for macro evolution, then I'd like to see some, and I am not talking about scientific fantasy that requires a lot of hopeful thinking that goes against all the evidences that we see and find. You see Genesis says that everything was created in 6 days, then there was the fall, and creation was cursed. This is exactly what we see today, a cursed creation, one that is dying, where more and more genetic information is lost as time goes on.

Finally, the term mico-evolution that some of you have been using, suggests that there is a gain in genetic information, which is certainly not the case. These are all adaptations, and they lose genetic information.

I can't believe the mindset of todays society, bent on the thought that evolution is fact, it is a theory, and that it all it can ever be (hence why it is called the theory of evolution).
 
i don't understand a couple of things here.


In fact there are no found adaptations that gain genetic information not found in the parents. That is why scientist like Richard Dawkins have back tracked a bit, realising that the only evidences we have point to de-evoluting system from a more perfect point. I.e. the further back in time we go, the more genetic information the cells had (not the other way around, as evolution requires).

you mentioning perfection implies you have a mistaken understanding of basic evolutionary theory because if there's one thing those guys agree on its that evolution doesn't have a goal - to improve a species or whatever.

and i don't understand your talk about losing genes. if some poor critter dies then yeah, its genes are gone. but as far as i know nothing changes it's gene count from parent to offspring, either increasing or decreasing.


[/quote]What you are calling micro evolution, is not evolution at all, it is adaptation.
you're just giving one thing different names.
 
aamacgregor said:
Evolution between kinds (e.g. ape to man) is a false theory,
Duh. It is a false theory; BECAUSE WE DID NOT EVOLVE FROM APE! We evolved from an ape-like Hominid (An animal those gave rise to both Humans, and Apes). And Darwin never said that we evolved from Apes, Darwin simply stated the similarities between Apes and Humans; susceptibilities to certain diseases, vitamin-C deficiency, etc. In order for you to properly debate this theory, I suggest you take the time to research it.
 
There is good reason as to why I used the words 'perfect point'. I believe in the 6 day creation account in Genesis. I believe that those 6 days, were 6 real days in relation to time on this earth as we measure it now, and not stretched out periods of time. After the fall, creation was cursed as we read in Genesis, and thus degeneration began in the state of man and creation. Therefore from this angle, the further we go back in time from where we are now, towards the point of creation, the closer we go back to a state of perfection. However, this as you will no doubt be thinking how to the words 'perfect point' also work in an evolutionary context and timescale too? You are right to say that "evolution doesn't have a goal - to improve a species or whatever". Evolution is not about perfection, but survival, present, and future. So, why would I use the words perfect point? The answer is simple, if the cells of the creatures further back in time have more genetic information, as Richard Dawkins supposes, then in this sense they are at a more perfect point, because they have greater ability for change and adaptation.

In fact there is a nice video you can get from http://www.answersingenesis.org called From a Frog to a Prince and it conclusively shows that there is no mechanism for evolution, and that life could only evolve by chance in fairy tales, but not in the real world of true science. In this video there are interviews with lead evolutionists (Dawkins included), who get themselves stuck in hole not being able to produce any concrete evidence for evolution. The subject of loss of genetic information in adaptations (a process accepted by both creationists and evolutionists) is also covered in this. I suggest you get hold of this video, I'm sure it could will explain things to you better than I am able to.

Further more as a point about Natural Selection.

According to the Biblical framework of history, struggle and death began when man's rebellion ruined God's perfect creation. Natural selection is just one of the processes that operates in our present corrupted world to insure that the created kinds can indeed spread throughout the earth in all its ecologic and geographic variety (often, nowadays, in spite of human pollution).

As a matter of fact, 24 years before Darwin's Origin, a Christian scientist named Edward Blyth published the concept of natural selection in the Biblical context of corrupted creation. He saw it as a process that adapted varieties of the created kinds to changing environments after sin brought death into God's world. A book reviewer once asked, rather naively, if creationists could accept the concept of natural selection. The answer is, "Of course we do accept it. We thought of it first!"

But if natural selection is such a profound idea, and Blyth published it before Darwin, then why isn't Blyth's name a household word? Perhaps because he was a creationist. It was not the scientific applications of natural selection that attracted attention in 1859; it was its presumed philosophic and religious implications.

Evolutionists were not content to treat natural selection as simply an observable ecological process. Darwin himself was a cautious scientist, painstaking in his work. But others, especially T.H. Huxley and Herbert Spencer, insisted on making natural selection the touchstone of a new religion, a "religion without revelation", as Julian Huxley later called it. For them, as for many others, the real significance of the Darwinian revolution was religious and philosophic, not scientific. These early evolutionists were basically anti-creationists who wanted to explain design without a Designer.

But in spite of what might be claimed, natural selection has been observed to produce only variation within kind, merely shifts in populations, for example, of moths to greater percentages of darker moths, of flies resistant to DDT, or of bacteria resistant to antibiotics. But evolution means more than change from moth to moth, fly to fly, or bacterium to bacterium. Any real evolution, "mega- or macro- " evolution, means change from one kind to another: "Fish to Philosopher", as the title of Homer Smith's book puts it, or "Molecules to Man", the subtitle of the government-funded BSCS "blue-version" high-school biology textbook.

Unfortunately on this forum, people seem to be arguing over what they believe evolution to be. Traditionally, and it is still the view of many scientists today, that they see adaptations in species, and they extrapolate, to say that after enough time, one kind will eventually become another kind (ape to human). They assume that there will be no limitations in one kind becoming another kind. This is now debated among evolutionists, many favouring the more recent version of the theory. Namely this, they say that after enough time, one kind will eventually have one or more descendants that become distinct kinds in their own right (e.g. hominid “fathering†ape and human). Richard Dawkins takes this latter view. It would seem that M82A1 does too. So, lets take a look at this view. There are two options within it:

1. That the original kind has a lot more genetic information than the descendants, carrying many dormant genes and chromosomes, allowing for the descendants to come without any additional genetic information.

2. That the original kind was less complex, and that the descendants gained genetic information over a period of time by “evolutional forcesâ€Â, becoming distinct kinds in their own right through natural selection and other means, even “fathering†new kinds their of their own.

When Richard Dawkins was challenged about the latter (you can watch this challenge for yourself on the video that I suggested), he was unable to provide any real evidence to suggest that it was a plausible theory (and neither has any evolutionist to date that I know of), furthermore, in the light of present evidences that show that genetic information is lost and not gained over time, Dawkins then back tracked and opted for the first option.

This however, means that the original kind must have had all the genetic information to father all kinds that we have now, and have ever had on this earth. It also means that the first cell must have been incredibly complex, and contain an incredible amount of seemingly meaningless parts or information. So this goes back to the question, where did the first cell come from? Again, scientists are unable to produce a plausible model of how the first protein naturally came about without any devine/intellegent intevention, let alone a strand of DNA!

To finish, Darwin himself was acutely aware of this evidence of creation and the problem it posed for his theory. His chapter in Origin of Species on adaptations was not titled "Evidence for the Theory" but "Difficulties With the Theory." In it, he discussed traits that depend on separately meaningless parts. Consider the human eye with the different features required to focus at different distances, to accommodate different amounts of light, and to correct for the "rainbow effect". Regarding the origin of the eye, Darwin wrote these words:

To suppose that the eye, [with so many parts all working
together] ... could have been formed by natural selection,
seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree.

"Absurd in the highest degree." That's Darwin's own opinion of using natural selection to explain the origin of traits that depend on many parts working together.

Modern evolutionists continue to recognize these "difficulties with the theory" of evolution. Harvard's Stephen Gould writes, for example, "What good is half a jaw or half a wing?" Gould also recognizes that many people (especially artists employed by museums and textbook publishers) have tried to present a hypothetical series of gradual changes from one kind to others. So he adds, "These tales, in the `Just- So Stories' tradition of evolutionary natural history, do not prove anything ... Concepts salvaged only by facile speculation do not appeal much to me." Even though Gould is an evolutionist, he recognizes that the classic textbook concept of gradual evolution rests on made-up stories and "facile speculation", and not on facts.

In another article, Gould points out that the perfection of complex structures has always been one of the strongest evidences of creation. After all, he says, "perfection need not have a history", no trial-and-error development over time from chance trait combinations and selection. So, Gould continues, evidence for evolution must be sought in "oddities and imperfections" that clearly show the effects of time and chance.

But creationists recognize imperfection, too. The Bible clearly indicates that "time and chance and struggle" have indeed corrupted what God originally had created in perfection. Imperfection, then, is not the issue; perfection is. And evolutionists from Darwin to Lewontin and Gould admit that "perfection of structure" has always been "the chief evidence of a Supreme Designer".
 
But creationists recognize imperfection, too. The Bible clearly indicates that "time and chance and struggle" have indeed corrupted what God originally had created in perfection. Imperfection, then, is not the issue; perfection is. And evolutionists from Darwin to Lewontin and Gould admit that "perfection of structure" has always been "the chief evidence of a Supreme Designer".

It's why Gould points out that it's in the imperfections that we can understand nature. The blind spot makes no sense in terms of design, but when we realize that the metabolic needs of the retina requires a "backwards" arrangement, it becomes clear why such evolved.
 
On the contrary, the blind spot is not a mistake, and it makes perfect sense from a design perspective. For those that may not know, the blind spot is the region where the optic nerves come together and exit the eye on their way to the brain. The mammalian eye is very complex there are a tremendous amount of optic nerves in the eye, now obviously these have to exit somewhere. It is most logical that this point should be at the back of the eye (this allows the eye the most freedom of movement), but not in the centre where the image is focused. So a good place to put it, is slightly offset from the centre. It turns out, that is where it is! Most people assume that what you see is pretty much what your eye sees and reports to your brain. In fact, your brain adds very substantially to the report it gets from your eye, so that a some of what you see is actually "made up" by the brain. This is an extremely complex and clever arrangement with considerable attention to image processing. Such a complex and perfect arrangement suggests a designer, as Darwin realised (and many others since)! Furthermore since the right eye can see whatever lies in the left eye's blind spot and vice versa, the two eyes together provide complete vision. Perfect.... definitely looks like design to me!

So my question to you, is how is it clear that the eye evolved? From other posts I can see that you have spent time in study. But look at the marvellous complex construction of the retina. Or even from an optics point of view, the carefully selected materials with perfectly matched refractive indices. After a short study, I'm sure you'll realise why evolutionists are unable to give an explanation as to how such an instrument could have evolved - it is too perfect. Evolutionists have tried to explain the eye ever since Darwin pointed out that it causes the theory of evolution show-stopping problems, and they've failed!
 
On the contrary, the blind spot is not a mistake, and it makes perfect sense from a design perspective.

A spot in the visual field where one cannot see? I don't see the advantage.

For those that may not know, the blind spot is the region where the optic nerves come together and exit the eye on their way to the brain. The mammalian eye is very complex there are a tremendous amount of optic nerves in the eye, now obviously these have to exit somewhere.

Yep. That's the defect. You see in other kinds of eyes, such as those of cephalopods, the eye isn't wired backwards, and there is no blind spot.

In fact, your brain adds very substantially to the report it gets from your eye, so that a some of what you see is actually "made up" by the brain.

This is called "confabulation". Your brain, lacking evidence about what is in that area, makes up information to compensate. It's not a problem, unless there happens to be something there that you need to know about.

Such a complex and perfect arrangement suggests a designer, as Darwin realised (and many others since)!

Actually, Darwin showed how it could have evolved in a series of steps. He asked a rhetorical question about the development of the eye just before he answered it. The less honest creationists take the quote and remove the part where he explains how, so as to make it appear that Darwin thought something he did not. Apparently they fooled you.

Would you like to learn how we know how eyes evolve?

Furthermore since the right eye can see whatever lies in the left eye's blind spot and vice versa, the two eyes together provide complete vision. Perfect.... definitely looks like design to me!

Actually, they don't much of the time. And if you have one eye, it becomes a permanent problem. It's a small defect, but a persistent one.

So my question to you, is how is it clear that the eye evolved?

For many reasons. One of the most prominent is that we can trace the evolution of eyes in some phyla by the eyes in living members of the phyla.

Limpet:
limpet.gif


Limpet eye:

Patella.GIF

This eye is from a limpet, a primitive mollusk. Notice that it is not much but a few sensitive cells in a depression. It has a limited amount of acuity, in that it can tell from what direction the light is coming.

Nautilus:
nautilus.jpg


Nautilus eye:

Nautilus.GIF

Notice that it's pretty much like the limpet "eye", except that the depression has deepened, and the tissue has grown over the depression to make a primitive "iris" and "pupil". Much more useful, and capable of forming a crude image by diffraction, much as a pinhole camera works. A lens is nice, but unnecessary.

Snail:
helix1.jpg


Snail eye

Helix.GIF

Not much different, except the cuticle has grown over the opening to provide a transparent protection for the pinhole, preventing it from being damaged or clogged.

Squid:
adriatic-squid.jpg


Squid eye:
Squid.GIF

Not much different, except the cuticle and epithelium have thickened over the pinhole to form lenses.

By very small incremental changes, we see that a complex eye can form.

From other posts I can see that you have spent time in study. But look at the marvellous complex construction of the retina. Or even from an optics point of view, the carefully selected materials with perfectly matched refractive indices.

I don't know of any "perfect" ones, but some are pretty close. But the "sorta perfect" are preceded by the "not so perfect", and those by the "not perfect at all."

After a short study, I'm sure you'll realise why evolutionists are unable to give an explanation as to how such an instrument could have evolved - it is too perfect.

I've spent a lot of time on it. And the answer turns out that nothing is perfect, and we can show how the "sorta perfect" evolved.

Evolutionists have tried to explain the eye ever since Darwin pointed out that it causes the theory of evolution show-stopping problems, and they've failed!

It's not hard to show how it happens. We can see it happening again, in snakes. They are evolving a second set of eyes that are sensitive in the infrared. The evolution of these eyes (as shown by various members of their group) parallels the evolution of other eyes. Can I show you those?

Maybe next post.
 
Hey Barb,

Wish I had time to respond to this one... maybe next week. *sigh*

BL
 
Here's another example. New eyes are forming in snakes, which are sensitive to infrared (heat) radiation. Sorry about the quality; I couldn't find illustrations, so I had to draw them.
image-display


Notice that the boa receptor is little more than a slightly shaded patch of skin with a large number of heat sensitive cells, from the trigeminal nerve.

The phython "eye" is a slightly deepened pit, with a denser array of cells, and sufficient shading to allow some directional interpretation.

The rattlesnake "eye" is deeper and closes off sufficiently to form a primitive iris. The cells are even denser, and a space has opened up behind the cells, creating an air space. This reduces mass and conductivity around the cells, and makes them more sensitive to heat. This last "eye" can actually form a very rough image.

Studies have shown that the images from the regular eyes, and from the infrared eyes are combined in the optic tectum to produce a composite image. Rattlesnakes are interested in small, warm, moving objects. That is what will elicit a strike.

Compare this with the eyes in mollusks. Notice that the same selective pressures have produced analogous organs, in much the same way that selective pressures have resulted in dolphins and sharks with analogous shapes.

I'm heading off to a soccer tournament in Austin. I'll see you all Monday.
 
I'm not sure if I would consider this evolution. Maybe mutation, or adaptation. That may be a better word.
 
Vicjr maybe your problem is that you see evolution as being completely incompatible with your religion and are afraid to even say it, even though the evidence points directly at it. You infact said it yourself in different wording.
The Truth points to itself.
 
SyntaxVorlon said:
Vicjr maybe your problem is that you see evolution as being completely incompatible with your religion and are afraid to even say it, even though the evidence points directly at it. You infact said it yourself in different wording.
The Truth points to itself.
1) It's not a problem, for me anyway.
2) It is incompatable with my Faith. I truely believe Man did not evolve from any primitive species. That is my main disagreement.
3) I am not afraid to admit it. Not afraid to express my beliefs and feelings. LOL, you should know that about me by now.

I am 46 and believed in evolution for the 'better' part of those 46 years. My point in my last post was that a snake developing a new eye does not constitute it being attributed to evolution. It is still the same snake.
 
The point is that it isn't the same snake. It's an entirely different organism, one that can hunt in darkness, and "see" heat.

Chimps and humans differ by much less than garter snakes and rattlesnakes.

This is the dilemma of creationism. If the evolution of boid snakes is not evolution, then the common ancestry of humans and chimps isn't either.
 
It is still the same snake with a new ability.

Chimps and humans differ by much less than garter snakes and rattlesnakes.

What no way. there may be very similar physical similarities, but humans and chimps are as different as dark and light.

Just because God created apes physically similar to humans does not indicate that the two are related. The similaritys end at the physical level.
 
It is still the same snake with a new ability.

With an entirely new sensory organ. A great example of "hypermacroevolution" (macroevolution does not requre the evolution of new structures).

Barbarian observes:
Chimps and humans differ by much less than garter snakes and rattlesnakes.

What no way.

Way. As the creationist Linneaus (who invented modern taxonomy said):

"I wish that someone would show me one character by which to place humans and the apes in separate genera. I most assuredly know of none. Had I called humans apes or vice versa I would have fallen under the ban of the Ecclesiastics."

there may be very similar physical similarities, but humans and chimps are as different as dark and light.

Show me one structure in humans that is not in apes, or vice versa. I can show you a multitude of anatomical and biological differences between garter snakes and rattlesnakes, and yet you can't show me one between humans and chimps.

Just because God created apes physically similar to humans does not indicate that the two are related. The similaritys end at the physical level.

No. It's also at the genetic and biochemical level. And it's even at the behavior level. Chimps, for example, show that they can infer mental states in others. Only apes can do this. Even monkeys are unable to do it.

Our genes are not only similar in simple DNA hybridization; even the "mistakes" are the same, in precisely the same place.

The differences between humans and chimps are miniscule compared to the differences between garter snakes and rattlesnakes. If the evolution of infrared vision is "microevolution", then so is the evolution of chimps and humans from a common ancestor.

"Gish's Dilemma", it is.
 
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