[_ Old Earth _] evolution

[Rollo Tamasi]

The earliest dinosaurs, like Herrerasaurus, were little more than advanced thecodot reptiles. The late theropod dinosaurs had many of the adaptations found in birds today. They were a highly diverse and successful group in their time. Actually, two different groups. Polyphyletic, in a word.

Did man come after the dinosaurs?
How do you know, one way or the other?

 

[Barbarian]

Did man come after the dinosaurs?

Yep.

How do you know, one way or the other?

The first dinosaurs show up between rock layers that physicists have measured to be about 210 million years old. Humans evolved from Australopithecines or a related genus just a few million years ago. How do they know that? Check here:
http://www.sciencecourseware.org/VirtualDating/files/1.0_ClocksInRocks.html

And here,
http://gondwanaresearch.com/radiomet.htm
for a pretty good non-technical explanation of how we know about the ages of rocks.

The genetic and fossil evidence for human descent is rather compelling. Would you like to see some of that?

 

[Sparkey]

Barbarian

Barb, are you now saying that Adam did not exist?!? That's a slippery slope as you know.

... that the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundation of the world may be required of this generation, from the blood of Abel (see Gen 4:8) to the blood of Zechariah (see 2 Chron 24:20-21) who perished between the altar and the temple. Yes, I say to you, it shall be required of this generation.



It would hardly be fair for Jesus to judge them for killing an analogy. That view is entirely preposterous and without any merit whatsoever. To preach such is to make Christ a false judge.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Yep.



The first dinosaurs show up between rock layers that physicists have measured to be about 210 million years old. Humans evolved from Australopithecines or a related genus just a few million years ago. How do they know that? Check here:
http://www.sciencecourseware.org/VirtualDating/files/1.0_ClocksInRocks.html

And here,
http://gondwanaresearch.com/radiomet.htm
for a pretty good non-technical explanation of how we know about the ages of rocks.

The genetic and fossil evidence for human descent is rather compelling. Would you like to see some of that?

Okay. let's assume dinosaurs came first.
If you were looking at evolution in the time of dinosaurs, what would you expect to happen next?
A bigger dinosaur?
A stronger dinosaur?
A smarter dinosaur?

What actually happened?
Somehow, dinosaurs disappeared and were replaced by a small creature with a very intelligent brain.
According to evolution, how did that happen?

 

[Barbarian]

Okay. let's assume dinosaurs came first.
If you were looking at evolution in the time of dinosaurs, what would you expect to happen next?
A bigger dinosaur?
A stronger dinosaur?
A smarter dinosaur?

Depends on what happens to the environment. Fitness only counts in terms of the environmental conditions. So if things get dry, we expect to see changes favoring survival in dry conditions.

What actually happened?

A rather large body hit the Earth in what is now the Gulf of Mexico, and threw up a huge cloud of debris that blocked the sun for a number of years. Likely a huge area directly scorched by the hit, and the rest of the world in a long season with cold and no plant growth to speak of. Pretty much all land animals more massive than a few kilograms, died out.

Somehow, dinosaurs disappeared and were replaced by a small creature with a very intelligent brain.

There were some large mammals, but they fared no better than the large reptiles. There were some dinosaurs and birds with relatively larger brains than mammals of the time. Birds, being small, made it. Big reptiles mostly didn't.

According to evolution, how did that happen?

Natural selection. In a world with sudden loss of habitat, small creatures tend to survive more easily. And that's what happened.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Depends on what happens to the environment. Fitness only counts in terms of the environmental conditions. So if things get dry, we expect to see changes favoring survival in dry conditions.



A rather large body hit the Earth in what is now the Gulf of Mexico, and threw up a huge cloud of debris that blocked the sun for a number of years. Likely a huge area directly scorched by the hit, and the rest of the world in a long season with cold and no plant growth to speak of. Pretty much all land animals more massive than a few kilograms, died out.



There were some large mammals, but they fared no better than the large reptiles. There were some dinosaurs and birds with relatively larger brains than mammals of the time. Birds, being small, made it. Big reptiles mostly didn't.



Natural selection. In a world with sudden loss of habitat, small creatures tend to survive more easily. And that's what happened.

WOW!
That's better science fiction than L. Ron Hubbard.

 

[turnorburn]

Depends on what happens to the environment. Fitness only counts in terms of the environmental conditions. So if things get dry, we expect to see changes favoring survival in dry conditions.



A rather large body hit the Earth in what is now the Gulf of Mexico, and threw up a huge cloud of debris that blocked the sun for a number of years. Likely a huge area directly scorched by the hit, and the rest of the world in a long season with cold and no plant growth to speak of. Pretty much all land animals more massive than a few kilograms, died out.



There were some large mammals, but they fared no better than the large reptiles. There were some dinosaurs and birds with relatively larger brains than mammals of the time. Birds, being small, made it. Big reptiles mostly didn't.



Natural selection. In a world with sudden loss of habitat, small creatures tend to survive more easily. And that's what happened.

Are you saying this is the way it was after the animals departed Noah's Ark?

tob

 

[turnorburn]

Barbarian

Barb, are you now saying that Adam did not exist?!? That's a slippery slope as you know.

... that the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundation of the world may be required of this generation, from the blood of Abel (see Gen 4:8) to the blood of Zechariah (see 2 Chron 24:20-21) who perished between the altar and the temple. Yes, I say to you, it shall be required of this generation.



It would hardly be fair for Jesus to judge them for killing an analogy. That view is entirely preposterous and without any merit whatsoever. To preach such is to make Christ a false judge.

This is only the beginning Sparrow, Barbarian is stuck between a rock and a hard place according to this statement..

As previously reported, earlier this month, Guy Consolmagno with the Vatican Observatory told Australia’s Fairfax Media that young earth creation beliefs are nearly tantamount to blasphemy.

“It’s almost blasphemous theology,” Consolmagno alleged, according to the Brisbane Times. “It’s certainly not the tradition of Catholicism and never has been and it misunderstands what the Bible is and it misunderstands what science is.”

The papal astronomer further explained that he rejects the literal interpretation of Genesis and instead finds truth through “science.”

“Science is a way of getting close to creation, to really getting intimate with creation, and it’s a way of getting intimate with the Creator,” he claimed. “It’s an act of worship.”

http://christiannews.net/2014/10/27...tion-argues-god-and-evolution-are-compatible/

Teach your children well because before we know it this will be the law of the land..

tob

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Depends on what happens to the environment. Fitness only counts in terms of the environmental conditions. So if things get dry, we expect to see changes favoring survival in dry conditions.



A rather large body hit the Earth in what is now the Gulf of Mexico, and threw up a huge cloud of debris that blocked the sun for a number of years. Likely a huge area directly scorched by the hit, and the rest of the world in a long season with cold and no plant growth to speak of. Pretty much all land animals more massive than a few kilograms, died out.



There were some large mammals, but they fared no better than the large reptiles. There were some dinosaurs and birds with relatively larger brains than mammals of the time. Birds, being small, made it. Big reptiles mostly didn't.



Natural selection. In a world with sudden loss of habitat, small creatures tend to survive more easily. And that's what happened.

Okay, let's say we are looking at evolution today.
We look at man.
What happens next?
Or is it already happening?

 

[Barbarian]

Barb, are you now saying that Adam did not exist?!? That's a slippery slope as you know.

The promises God made makes it clear that there were two original humans who were given immortal souls by God, and who are the ancestors of all people living today.

 

[Barbarian]

Okay, let's say we are looking at evolution today.
We look at man.
What happens next?

Depends on what changes in the environment.. For example, there's an increase in the HbC allelle in Africa, and the EGLN1 high altitude allele in Central Asia. On the other hand, technology has permitted people with some previously unfavorable alleles to survive and reproduce.

Or is it already happening?

 

[Barbarian]

This is only the beginning Sparrow, Barbarian is stuck between a rock and a hard place according to this statement..

This is a problem for some creationists, but not for a Christian who accepts God's word.
http://christiannews.net/2014/10/20...ng-earth-creation-beliefs-almost-blasphemous/

As previously reported, earlier this month, Guy Consolmagno with the Vatican Observatory told Australia’s Fairfax Media that young earth creation beliefs are nearly tantamount to blasphemy.

Some extreme forms of YE creationism might be so. Mostly not. Many YE creationists love God and seek to serve Him.

 

[Barbarian]

Barbarian obseves:
Depends on what happens to the environment. Fitness only counts in terms of the environmental conditions. So if things get dry, we expect to see changes favoring survival in dry conditions.

A rather large body hit the Earth in what is now the Gulf of Mexico, and threw up a huge cloud of debris that blocked the sun for a number of years. Likely a huge area directly scorched by the hit, and the rest of the world in a long season with cold and no plant growth to speak of. Pretty much all land animals more massive than a few kilograms, died out.

There were some large mammals, but they fared no better than the large reptiles. There were some dinosaurs and birds with relatively larger brains than mammals of the time. Birds, being small, made it. Big reptiles mostly didn't.

Natural selection. In a world with sudden loss of habitat, small creatures tend to survive more easily. And that's what happened.

WOW!
That's better science fiction than L. Ron Hubbard.

If you'd like to have me show you the evidence for these, I'd be pleased to do that. Hubbard was just a different variety of creationist; he initially endorsed evolution, until he learned that it ruled out some of his religious teachings. Sound familiar?

 

[Corn Pop]

Yep.



The first dinosaurs show up between rock layers that physicists have measured to be about 210 million years old. Humans evolved from Australopithecines or a related genus just a few million years ago. How do they know that? Check here:
http://www.sciencecourseware.org/VirtualDating/files/1.0_ClocksInRocks.html

And here,
http://gondwanaresearch.com/radiomet.htm
for a pretty good non-technical explanation of how we know about the ages of rocks.

The genetic and fossil evidence for human descent is rather compelling. Would you like to see some of that?

Nothing is hard fact because the earth mass is so big and has not fully been analised. All it takes is one find to change everything. One day they might find man in rock thats older than dinousaur. Who knows. Until then people just believe something that has no boundrys.

So at the moment its dinosaurs but can change in an instant. I cant base my faith on this type of science.

 

[turnorburn]

This is a problem for some creationists, but not for a Christian who accepts God's word.


Some extreme forms of YE creationism might be so. Mostly not. Many YE creationists love God and seek to serve Him.

You mean to tell me that you agree with this mans beliefs?

The papal astronomer further explained that he rejects the literal interpretation of Genesis and instead finds truth through “science.”

“Science is a way of getting close to creation, to really getting intimate with creation, and it’s a way of getting intimate with the Creator,” he claimed. “It’s an act of worship.”

Never in my life have i met a fellow believer that would even say this in jest.. like I've been trying to tell you for years Barbarian step away from those science books and read Gods word..

tob

 

[Eugene]

Eugene .

I was quite happy i found something to back me after i had already ran my mouth. I could not even remember it was even in the bible until i watched the movie of John last night and heard John 10:6 and remembered all the parables, figures of speech.

Jesus himself said he uses figures of speech, and figures of speech are not literal, and he is the author of the bible and was there from the start. I think what i have said above is valid. Adam was made from dust i believe is a bigger story than he just appeared out of the ground from dust in full human form and God breathed life in his nostrils.

It is certain dear Brother kiwidan that we do not understand the complexity of God's creation, and as to the parables, they were given so unbelievers so they would not understand, but to us God speaks in straight language, and examples as warnings (1 Cor 10:11). I do believe that we will know one day when we are face to face with our Savior. (1 Cor 13:12)

Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

 

[Corn Pop]

But its not been given to me and i also cant understand parables. Its a lose lose for me. I want to know the mystery. I knock but i get no answer. I have been locked out and left in confusion. I try understand and get it all wrong. Its unfair.

 

[Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
This is a problem for some creationists, but not for a Christian who accepts God's word.
Some extreme forms of YE creationism might be so. Mostly not. Many YE creationists love God and seek to serve Him.

You mean to tell me that you agree with this mans beliefs?

It seems he's talking about he most extreme of creationists, such as Muslims and the guys at "Answers in Genesis." Not all creationists are like that. Most aren't, I think.

The papal astronomer further explained that he rejects the literal interpretation of Genesis and instead finds truth through “science.”

“Science is a way of getting close to creation, to really getting intimate with creation, and it’s a way of getting intimate with the Creator,” he claimed. “It’s an act of worship.”

For those of us who believe, learning about His creation is an act of worship. And most Christians do reject a literal interpretation of Genesis. Even in this country, where Seventh-Day Adventism started, they aren't a majority. However, the Bible does say that truth is manifest in His creation:
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.

So God says he's right about that. I know that for a fact. If I can't get out into His creation, I get pretty edgy after a while. So, I think small, get out my macro lens and see what He's got for me in my back yard.

If you can't see His power and divinity in that, I truly hope He will open your eyes soon. The creation is an awesome demonstration of His wisdom and power, as St. Paul says.

Never in my life have i met a fellow believer that would even say this in jest..

Listen to Paul. He understands what you don't.

Like I've been trying to tell you for years Barbarian step away from those science books and read Gods word..

If you had read and accepted God's word, I wouldn't have to be explaining this to you.

 

[Barbarian]

Nothing is hard fact because the earth mass is so big and has not fully been analised. All it takes is one find to change everything. One day they might find man in rock thats older than dinousaur. Who knows. Until then people just believe something that has no boundrys.

Scientists agree with you. Nothing in the universe is fully known. And yes, all knowledge in science is provisional. Once someone asked Haldane what would disprove evolution. He responded pretty much the way you did: "a rabbit in Cambrian rocks." We never know for absolutely sure. One morning, gravity might not work anymore, and everything will be slung out into space. Not very likely, though. Science works on likelihoods, not absolute truth.

So at the moment its dinosaurs but can change in an instant.

In your (and Haldane's) example, it would.

I cant base my faith on this type of science.

You shouldn't. As St. Paul wrote, the power and divinity of God is manifest in His creation. That is truth from the world that you can count on. The details continue to be worked out, but that's not what faith is about.

 

[brother Paul]

Dead matter does not possess the innate information necessary to produce the array of organized information packed structural and functional variation of the simplest life forms

Dead matter is not autocatalytic (it does not start doing things on its own, it MUST BE acted upon)

The principle of causality states that you can't get more in the effect than you had in the cause.

Dead matter never organizes itself under its own power.

Dead matter does not produce living things (it can do nothing on its own)

It is logical therefore to infer some past action by an intelligent cause simply because of the presence of such an information packed effect… (an info packed and self regulating effect, necessitates an info packed and self regulating cause)

Information does not create itself…and blind chance has zero information. The Universe we see is very lawful and in many ways and places guided by reliable principles. Laws govern they do not make or form or create anything. Laws exist. Their cause therefore must also be lawful.

Information theorists are more and more moving toward intelligence in design (explore the Pre-Coded Equilibrium model) because whenever probabilities are configured (even using the most liberally defined conditions and factors) the probabilities against a Universe (especially life) evolving by chance is beyond zero probability mathematically in a 20 billion year old Universe.

Question: “Well then why then does the atheist insist on such an incredibly improbable explanation for the universe?

Answer: Because without it they cannot remain an atheist!