[_ Old Earth _] Evolutionism denies the fall.

[civilwarbuff]

The question is: how does anyone know that they are correctly hearing from the Holy Spirit?

Agree....it is something between them and God...

Why is person A's answer from the Holy Spirit different from person B's answer.

Why is denomination A's answer from the HS different from denomination B's answer?

People claim that they are right because they've been personally told by the Holy spirit and whoever doesn't agree with them doesn't hear from the Holy Spirit like THEY do.

Once again, I agree but it applies to denominations as well as individuals does it not?

 

[Jim Parker]

You seem to be unhappy with the answer.

I am unhappy that you think playing juvenile games is answering a question.

An answer designed to avoid a perceived trap.

That would be an answer that required you to admit your original statement was nonsense.
Of course you would avoid that.

 

[Jim Parker]

Agree....it is something between them and God...

Why is denomination A's answer from the HS different from denomination B's answer?

Once again, I agree but it applies to denominations as well as individuals does it not?

Of course it does.
But I am not getting any answers to my questions.
1. Exactly how does an inanimate object (a Bible) have self awareness?
2. Please explain why those who are guided by the Holy Spirit to know the truth do not agree on what the truth is.
I'm getting a lot of shucking and jiving and dodging and weaving but no clear answers to those two questions as one might expect to receive from an adult.

 

[calvin]

I'm not comfortable with your asinine games, if that's what you mean.

Now don't get personal here if that is what you are doing.
There was a time years ago when I placed certain people on 'ignore', but I soon learned that was an unwise action. So I determined never to repeat that mistake.
That does not mean that I welcome certain posts, though I try not to ignore them.
The answers that you are taking issue with are answers where I have quoted from Scripture and not from fallible church leaders. If this is a stumbling block for you then there is really nothing more I can do.
G'day sir.

 

[Jim Parker]

The answers that you are taking issue with are answers where I have quoted from Scripture and not from fallible church leaders.

Baloney.
You have not answered anything clearly and concisely.
YOu have just played games.
IF you can answer the questions honestly and directly then do so.
IF not then please don't send me more baloney.
1. Exactly how does an inanimate object (a Bible) have self awareness? (ie: How does it interpret itself?)
2. Please explain why those who are guided by the Holy Spirit to know the truth do not agree on what the truth is.
(ie; Why doesn't everyone get the same "truth"?)
So far, you have not given any clear answer and then have pretended that you have which is being dishonest.
SO, please, put up or shut up.

 

[civilwarbuff]

1. Exactly how does an inanimate object (a Bible) have self awareness?

I don't think anyone is saying the bible has 'self awareness" but rather can explain itself.....there is a big difference.

2. Please explain why those who are guided by the Holy Spirit to know the truth do not agree on what the truth is.

Could it be that the HS only reveals what truth we are able to understand and accept at any point in time?
At one point the Church, ostensibly led by the HS, decreed that the sun revolved around the earth.....it took many years before that belief was deposed. I, personally believe God only reveals to us what we are able to accept and need to know at any given time so that our knowledge grows over time.....not only of science but also of scripture.

 

[Jim Parker]

I don't think anyone is saying the bible has 'self awareness" but rather can explain itself.....there is a big difference.

I can explain myself because I have self awareness.
The Bible cannot "explain itself" because it does not have self awareness and it cannot tell anyone in human language what it meant "by that."
The scriptures are consistent in their teaching. So I may get help understanding a passage by reading other similar passages and finding that consistency. But that is not the Bible interpreting itself. That is me looking up other passages and making a judgment on the meaning of the passage with which I am having difficulty. That is MY doing, not the Bible's.
To say that the Bible is self interpreting in nonsense. It does not interpret, or preach, or speak. We use our brains to read the words and to discern the meaning.
To say "The Bible tells me..." is a logical fallacy; an appeal to authority. If the Bible were a living being, I suspect it would be amazed and appalled at some of the things that people assure one another the Bible has said.

Could it be that the HS only reveals what truth we are able to understand and accept at any point in time?
At one point the Church, ostensibly led by the HS, decreed that the sun revolved around the earth.....it took many years before that belief was deposed. I, personally believe God only reveals to us what we are able to accept and need to know at any given time so that our knowledge grows over time.....not only of science but also of scripture.

I don't believe the Holy Spirit would reveal error yet some people declare "by the Holy Spirit" that if you are not filled with the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues then you are not saved while others, also allegedly speaking by the leading of the same Holy Spirit declare that speaking in tongues is of the devil because all such gifts ceased with the death of the last apostle.
One group says that the Bread and wine of the Eucharist are the Body and Blood of Christ while another says the bread (soup cracker) and wine (grape juice) are only symbolic of the last supper. Both claim that the Holy Spirit told them so.

So, again, the appeal to the leading of the Holy Spirit is often another logical fallacy of appealing to authority whether the authority had anything to do with it no or not.

And, finally, my bottom line is that when people tell me that they are led by the spirit and that the Bible told them some new and wonderful revelation (whether it be a Rapture or a TULIP or an OSAS) I am less than assured of the accuracy of their assessment with regard to the origin of the wonderful revelation.
My assurance decreases even more when I see that they struggle with Modern English grammar and, yet, insist on referring only to the KJV which is written in Late Middle English, a language which they speak even less fluently than their native tongue.

that's all

iakov the fool

 

[civilwarbuff]

To say "The Bible tells me..." is a logical fallacy; an appeal to authority. If the Bible were a living being, I suspect it would be amazed and appalled at some of the things that people assure one another the Bible has said.

If I say "the bible tells me "believe in me (Messiah) and you will be saved" is that a logical fallacy?.....or is it true? If it is a logical fallacy (whatever the hell that means) then the entire bible is a logical fallacy because that is what it revolves around: Believe in Me and you will be saved".

I don't believe the Holy Spirit would reveal error yet some people declare "by the Holy Spirit" that if you are not filled with the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues then you are not saved while others, also allegedly speaking by the leading of the same Holy Spirit declare that speaking in tongues is of the devil because all such gifts ceased with the death of the last apostle.
One group says that the Bread and wine of the Eucharist are the Body and Blood of Christ while another says the bread (soup cracker) and wine (grape juice) are only symbolic of the last supper. Both claim that the Holy Spirit told them so.

Well, I am of the group that does not listen to what people say (whether as individuals or a church). I try, however imperfectly, to listen to the HS and be guided by Him as best I can understand. Actually, Lincoln put it succinctly in his 2nd inaugural address...."as God gives us to see the right"......good words to live by.

And, finally, my bottom line is that when people tell me that they are led by the spirit and that the Bible told them some new and wonderful revelation (whether it be a Rapture or a TULIP or an OSAS) I am less than assured of the accuracy of their assessment with regard to the origin of the wonderful revelation.

I am with you there; as soon as I hear 'the HS told me to tell you.......' I shut down......LOL

 

[Jim Parker]

If I say "the bible tells me "believe in me (Messiah) and you will be saved" is that a logical fallacy?.....or is it true?

That's not an interpretation. The scripture says that in so many words. I'm talking about interpretations (John 3:16)
But when someone uses john 10:28 to support OSAS, that is an interpretation.

I try, however imperfectly, to listen to the HS and be guided by Him as best I can understand.

There are far too many voices today with too many divergent messages.
It makes sense that you would depend on prayer and the leading of the Holy Spirit.
Hopefully, you will allow me to hear differently and not condemn me as a heretic for "hearing" a different answer.
And, I go to the earliest teaching of the Church to see what those who were closest to the time of Christ and whose lives were in danger just for being a believer. The closer to the source you go, the more accurate the information gets.

I am with you there; as soon as I hear 'the HS told me to tell you.......' I shut down......LOL

I love it when the Televangelist shares how he woke up with a start to find Jesus sitting on the corner of his bed with a new revelation just for him. GLOW-ray!

 

[civilwarbuff]

That's not an interpretation. The scripture says that in so many words. I'm talking about interpretations (John 3:16)
But when someone uses john 10:28 to support OSAS, that is an interpretation.

Of course it is an interpretation....am I saved when I believe?...do I need to continue to believe to be saved?....am I always saved when I believe?.....am I saved forever?.....many questions....no straight forward answers.....

There are far too many voices today with too many divergent messages.
It makes sense that you would depend on prayer and the leading of the Holy Spirit.
Hopefully, you will allow me to hear differently and not condemn me as a heretic for "hearing" a different answer.
And, I go to the earliest teaching of the Church to see what those who were closest to the time of Christ and whose lives were in danger just for being a believer. The closer to the source you go, the more accurate the information gets.

While I may not necessarily agree with everything you posted my belief is if what a person believes and practices brings them closer to Messiah who am I to say they are wrong?

 

[Free]

1.
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Kjv
You did not know this?

Are you asking me? It was a simple yes-or-no question. I take it that you believe you're fallen then. This actually implies that you think you're better than everyone else. If you're fallen and are guided only by the Holy Spirit, and then come here and teach and correct others, why are you not willing to allow the same for everyone else, especially for those who are significantly more learned than you (scholars, theologians, pastors)?

It's just patently false that we are to only listen to the Holy Spirit and not men. The vast majority of God speaking to us and teaching us, is through others. There is no either the Holy Spirit or men; it's both.

2
Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?Kjv
as 3:1 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.Kjv
Are you unaware of this?

Are you asking me if am unaware of this? Another yes-or-no question and something I most certainly am aware of, hence why I mentioned it in my previous post. So what do you think the purpose of teachers is?

You are free to think as you wish, as am I entitled to also believe the Bible's teaching.

You are free to believe what you think is the Bible's teaching, even if it actually isn't.

 

[Papa Zoom]

I didn't intend to post again, but I finally saw this last night, and I really do not know how you can make these sorts of claims. I don't think the Gospel is at all simple--at the heart of Christianity is a God who chooses to teach through parables, explicitly so that people will have difficulty understanding him. How is this consistent with the idea that God has any intention to spell things out as clearly as possible? I would argue quite the opposite. I don't think it's a matter of confusion, though, but rather that the point is humility.



I rejected Christianity as a little child because I read Genesis literally and thought it was ridiculous. My error was in insisting upon an all-or-nothing face value approach to Genesis, and I see the same exact reasoning from atheists all the time. If a literal reading is helpful for you, go ahead and read Genesis literally, but there's nothing holy about anti-intellectualism. There's nothing humble about saying that you have the correct interpretation and that anyone who disagrees must be coming from a place of pride.

The most frustrating thing about the conflict between science and religion is how utterly unnecessary it is. Does science have a decidedly atheistic bias? Yes, and I do wish there were a greater recognition of the fact that naturalism is an unverifiable (and ultimately arrogant) worldview. But I really do not think that the most appropriate response is to insist on a biblical interpretation more restrictive than orthodox Christianity has ever required simply to spite science.

I used to be a literalist and a legalist. But I've grown away from them, thank God. I'm pretty much in agreement with everything you've said here. Nicely said too. You're a good writer.

 

[calvin]

Are you asking me? It was a simple yes-or-no question. I take it that you believe you're fallen then. This actually implies that you think you're better than everyone else. If you're fallen and are guided only by the Holy Spirit, and then come here and teach and correct others, why are you not willing to allow the same for everyone else, especially for those who are significantly more learned than you (scholars, theologians, pastors)?

Well that is pretty cute. You have absolutely no Idea of my education or my former 'Church ministry'.
Nor did I come here to teach others but to chase an extremely elusive thing called fellowship. There are certain ones here with whom such an ideal has proved impossible because of their attitude and conduct.
And no, I am not going to play silly games.
Do not ask me what Qualifications (Theological), I have or what my ministry was and now also is.
You have already suggested an answer to those questions to your own satisfaction I believe; I'll leave you with it.