[_ Old Earth _] Evolutionism Lies In Textbooks

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(Kent Hovind)
I want to state up front that I am not opposed to science. I love science. I also believe that we have many wonderful teachers in our public schools. I am not proposing that creationism be promoted in our schools. I simply believe that our schools have a responsibility to teach the truth. I don't believe that our children should be deliberately lied to.

Most states have laws that prohibit state agencies and other public entities from using tax dollars to knowingly purchase or distribute material that contains, or represents as factual, information that has been proven fraudulent.

I would agree that this is good legislation. However, states do not enforce this legislation. As a result, yout tax dollars are being used to present fraudulent information as fact. This fraudulent information is used to promote a Humanistic worldview, and is therefore, state-funded evangelism for Humanism.

The following is brief overview of fraudulent and inaccurate material commonly found in science textbooks from grade school to college.

Lie #1: The Geologic Column

geocolumn.gif


The column is supposed to represent a vertical cross-section through the earth’s crust, with the most recently deposited (therefore youngest) rocks at the surface and the oldest, earliest rocks deposited on the crystalline “basement†rocks at the bottom. If one wishes to check out this standard column (or standard geologic age system), where can he go to see it for himself? There is only one place in all the world to see the standard geologic column. That’s in the textbook! In the real world, there are of course, many layers, but in no place is the entire column represented, and in the majority of places, the layers are in the wrong order.

There are some other interesting things to note about the geologic column. Many of its layers, wherever they are found in the world, are sorted with the courser material on the bottom and the finer material on the top of that individual layer (Except in the case of underwater “slumps†where the material is sorted fine to course). Does this sorting make sense to have happened over millions of years? Sorting like this does not take place today except in specific circumstances. This kind of sorting only occurs naturally in water, and specifically in underwater mudslides called turbodites. I think it is interesting that much of the geologic column looks exactly like turboditic layering.

Other evidences indicate that the layers were layed down rapidly, underwater rather than slowly over millions of years. All over the world, trees are found petrified, standing up, running through several "ages". If these layers really represent ages, we must either accept that the tree stood for millions of years, while the layers slowly built up around the tree, or that the tree grew up through millions of years of rock in search of sunlight.

In recent history, we had a very powerful demonstration of how layers are formed rapidly through a catastrophe. When Mount St. Helens erupted, it devastated the surrounding area. In this area, many layers of sediment were deposited rapidly, and in many layers. Several canyons were formed by the mud flows, all with features that look remarkably like the Grand Canyon in miniature. Trees were blasted off the face of the mountain, and many of them ended up floating on Spirit lake. Over a short time, as the trees became waterlogged, the began to sink vertically, and become embedded in the mud at the bottom of the lake. The trees here are sinking through many soft layers of material. This process shows a much more likely scenario for the explanation of polystrate tree fossils.

One last note on the geologic column: The ages of the rocks in the column are identified by the index fossils they contain. The fossils are dated by the layers of rock they are in. This is circular reasoning. In recent years, scientists have made the claim that the rocks are dated using radiometric dating, but the truth is that the dates of the layers vary wildly, and any dates that do not conform to the geologic column are regarded as "flawed" and not used.

polytree.jpg


Lie # 2: Index Fossils

backbrown1.jpg


For years, graptolites were considered index fossils for the Ordovician period (505 to 440 Million Years Ago). Click Here for more. However, graptolites were discovered alive and well in the south Pacific.

The Coelacanth (Shown in the images to the left) was used to date layers that were 70 million years old, but they are alive and well in the Indian Ocean.

Other famous living fossils include the tuatara (supposedly extinct since the Cretaceous Period until found still living in New Zealand), the Lepidocaris crustacean (only found as fossils in Devonian rocks), the Metasequoia conifer tree (thought extinct for the past 20 million years), the Neopilina mollusk (supposedly extinct for 280 million years), the lingula brachiopod ("extinct" since the Ordovician), and even the trilobite (chief index fossil of the even more ancient Cambrian Period).

The bottom line is that if these animals are alive today, they cannot possibly be used to prove that the layer of earth they are contained in is any age. Furthermore, the fact that they remain today without any apparent change over the "millions of years" deals a hard blow to the theory of evolution.

backbrownlive.jpg


Lie #3: Microevolution Proves Macroevolution

micromacro.gif


Our textbooks point out many examples of microevolution, which is really just a slight variation, and claim that this is proof of macroevolution - the change from one kind of animal to another.

The truth is, variations exist, but there are limits. Nowhere on earth, or in the fossil record have we ever seen any evidence of one kind of animal giving rise to another. I would agree that the wolf and the dog, and the coyote probably have a common ancestor - a dog. However, you can cross-breed memners of the dog kind for as long as you want, and you will never get anything other than a dog.

"The fact is that the evidence was so patchy one hundred years ago that even Darwin himself had increasing doubts as to the validity of his views, and the only aspect of his theory which has received any support over the past century is where it applies to microevolutionary phenomena. His general theory, that all life on earth had originated and evolved by a gradual successive accumulation of fortuitous mutations, is still, as it was in Darwin's time, a highly speculative hypothesis entirely without direct factual support and very far from that self-evident axiom some of its more aggressive advocates would have us believe."â€â€*Michael Denton, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis (1986), p. 77.


Lie #4: Biogenic Law (OntogenyRecapitulates Phylogeny)

embryo4.jpg


Embryo drawings were used in the 20th century as evidence for the theory of common descent in discussions of biological evolution. They compared embryonal stages of certain vertebrates and vastly overemphasized the similarities. These similarities were claimed to be evidence that humans and fish evolved from a common ancestor.

The drawings were originally produced by Haeckel to illustrate his now discredited theory of Ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny. He was later convicted of academic fraud, but the drawings found their way into biology textbooks nevertheless.

These pictures are still in textbooks today as evidence of evolution., even though they were found to be fraudulent in the 1850’s.

In 2000, Harvard professor Stephen Jay Gould called the continued use of these "fraudulent" embryo drawings the academic equivalent of murder. "We do, I think, have the right," he wrote, "to be both astonished and ashamed by the century of mindless recycling that has led to the persistence of these drawings in a large number, if not a majority, of modern textbooks."


Lie # 5: Human Embryo Gill Slits

gill-1.gif


You can hardly attend high school or college now days with out hearing or reading this "whopper". In fact, neither gills nor their slits are found at any stage in the embryological development of any mammal including man. The folds in the neck region of the mammalian embryo, that are erroneously called "gills", are not gills in any sense of the word and never have anything to do with breathing. They are merely flexion folds, or wrinkles, in the neck region resulting from the sharply down turned head and protruding heart of the developing embryo. These folds eventually develop into a portion of the face, inner ear, tonsils, parathyroid and thymus. No reputable medical embryology text claims that there are "gill slits" in mammals.

Still, the gill slit myth is perpetuated in many high school and college biology text books as "scientific evidence" for evolution. Even Dr. Spock in his book 'Baby and Child Care' claims that "as the baby lies in the amniotic fluid of the womb, he has gills like a fish." Perhaps the "gill slit" myth continues to be taught because there is no better "evidence" for evolution. How many of you were taught the gill slit myth in school??

Lie #6: Horse Evolution

HorseEvolution.gif


To the left is a chart that is used to show the various stages of horse evolution. This is shown as evidence of transitional forms. Here's what two of the experts say on the subject:

Dr. G.S. McLean: "The chart is assembled from fossils found in India, South America, North America and Europe, then arranged in a neat sequential order of size, the smallest to the largest. There is no proof whatsoever that one member of the chart has evolved into another."
"Darwin... was embarrassed by the fossil record... we are now about 120-years after Darwin and the knowledge of the fossil record has been greatly expanded. We now have a quarter of a million fossil species but the situation hasn't changed much. The record of evolution is still surprisingly jerky and, ironically, ... some of the classic cases of Darwinian change in the fossil record, such as the evolution of the horse in North America, have had to be discarded or modified as a result of more detailed information."

David M. Raup, Curator of Geology, Field Museum of Natural History, Chicago; "Conflicts between Darwin and paleontology" Field Museum of Natural History, vol.50, no. 1, Jan 1979, p.25
These are the basic facts about the supposed horse evolution series:

1. The horse series was constructed from fossils found in many different parts of the world and nowhere does this succession occur in one location. The series is formulated on the assumption of evolutionary progression, and then used to 'prove' evolution!
2. The number of ribs varies within the series, up and down, between 15, 19 and 18. The number of lumbar vertebrae also changes from six to eight and then back to six.
3. Fossils of the three-toed and one-toed species are preserved in the same rock formation in Nebraska, proving that both lived at the same time, strongly suggesting that one did not evolve into the other (National Geographic, January 1981, p. 74)
 
If there isn't a common ancestor, then how can we take the eye-gene of a mouse, put it in a flea, and the flea still develop eyes suited to a flea's physical make-up?

The genetic makeup is common enough that this can and has been done. The common ancestor is the best explaination and the one with the most evidence.
 
Well, our favorite shotgunner is peddling his wares again. (Barbarian rolls up sleeves) Let's get to it.

(Kent Hovind)
Most states have laws that prohibit state agencies and other public entities from using tax dollars to knowingly purchase or distribute material that contains, or represents as factual, information that has been proven fraudulent...

Considering why Hovind is in prison, I'd think he'd be a little reticent about discussing fraud, but...

Lie #1: The Geologic Column
The column is supposed to represent a vertical cross-section through the earth’s crust, with the most recently deposited (therefore youngest) rocks at the surface and the oldest, earliest rocks deposited on the crystalline “basement†rocks at the bottom. If one wishes to check out this standard column (or standard geologic age system), where can he go to see it for himself? There is only one place in all the world to see the standard geologic column. That’s in the textbook! In the real world, there are of course, many layers, but in no place is the entire column represented, and in the majority of places, the layers are in the wrong order.

The entire column is seen in a number of places. North Dakota, for example:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/geocolumn/

Other evidences indicate that the layers were layed down rapidly, underwater rather than slowly over millions of years. All over the world, trees are found petrified, standing up, running through several "ages". If these layers really represent ages, we must either accept that the tree stood for millions of years, while the layers slowly built up around the tree, or that the tree grew up through millions of years of rock in search of sunlight.

Some like that are forming in a lake nearby, formed by a dam a few decades ago. Layer after layer of silt are forming around them. I never heard of one in the fossil record that was dated over millions of years, though. Can you give an example?

In recent history, we had a very powerful demonstration of how layers are formed rapidly through a catastrophe. When Mount St. Helens erupted, it devastated the surrounding area. In this area, many layers of sediment were deposited rapidly, and in many layers. Several canyons were formed by the mud flows, all with features that look remarkably like the Grand Canyon in miniature.

Except for one problem. They get cut out more than a few meters deep, and they slump into the gulley. The Grand Canyon could never have formed like that. I was there a few years ago, and took some pictures of the gullies. Would you like to see them? It would show you why Hovind's story is completely absurd.

One last note on the geologic column: The ages of the rocks in the column are identified by the index fossils they contain.

No. The absolute dating is by radioisotope testing. We know it works, because recently a blind test was done on the material that buried Pompeii (we know the date) and it works.

The fossils are dated by the layers of rock they are in. This is circular reasoning.

Sorry. Kent pulled a fast one on you about that.

In recent years, scientists have made the claim that the rocks are dated using radiometric dating, but the truth is that the dates of the layers vary wildly...

Um, no. In fact, different researchers and different methods come up with amazingly close numbers. Here's a place to learn about it:
http://www.gate.net/~rwms/AgeEarth.html

Lie # 2: Index Fossils
For years, graptolites were considered index fossils for the Ordovician period (505 to 440 Million Years Ago). Click Here for more. However, graptolites were discovered alive and well in the south Pacific.

Graptolies still accurately mark the Ordovician rocks, and that is confirmed by radioisotope data. There are still some graptolites around, but no fossils after the Ordovician. The living group, pterobranchia has some affinities with the graptolites, but no one would confuse the two.

The Coelacanth (Shown in the images to the left) was used to date layers that were 70 million years old, but they are alive and well in the Indian Ocean.

In fact, the two suriving species aren't even the same genus of the ones found in the fossil record. They were small freshwater fish, and the modern ones are very different, being large, marine fish. Hovind tricked you on that, too.

(more such organisms evolved from ancient forms, but then this:)

and even the trilobite (chief index fossil of the even more ancient Cambrian Period).

Nope. The creature is a giant isopod, looking very much like a giant "pill bug" (rolypoly) found in your garden. Nothing particularly trilobitish about it. Apparently, they are very good eating, somewhat like lobster.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_isopod

Furthermore, the fact that they remain today without any apparent change over the "millions of years" deals a hard blow to the theory of evolution.

Surprise. Ken lied to you about that, too. No trilobites, and no ancient coelacanths.

Our textbooks point out many examples of microevolution, which is really just a slight variation, and claim that this is proof of macroevolution - the change from one kind of animal to another.

The first documented example of macroevolution was the evolution of O. gigas from O. lamarkania by a polyploidy, in 1904. There have been a number of others since.

"The fact is that the evidence was so patchy one hundred years ago that even Darwin himself had increasing doubts as to the validity of his views, and the only aspect of his theory which has received any support over the past century is where it applies to microevolutionary phenomena. His general theory, that all life on earth had originated and evolved by a gradual successive accumulation of fortuitous mutations, is still, as it was in Darwin's time, a highly speculative hypothesis entirely without direct factual support and very far from that self-evident axiom some of its more aggressive advocates would have us believe."â€â€*Michael Denton, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis (1986), p. 77.

Denton has a slightly different take on it, these days:

t is important to emphasize at the outset that the argument presented here is entirely consistent with the basic naturalistic assumption of modern science--that the cosmos is a seamless unity which can be comprehended in its entirety by human reason and in which all phenomena, including life and evolution and the origin of man, are ultimately explicable in terms of natural processes. This is an assumption which is entirely opposed to that of the so-called "special creationist school." According to special creationism, living organisms are not natural forms, whose origin and design were built into the laws of nature from the beginning, but rather contingent forms analogous in essence to human artifacts, the result of a series of supernatural acts, involving God's direct intervention in the course of nature, each of which involved the suspension of natural law. Contrary to the creationist position, the whole argument presented here is critically dependent on the presumption of the unbroken continuity of the organic world-- that is, on the reality of organic evolution and on the presumption that all living organisms on earth are natural forms in the profoundest sense of the word, no less natural than salt crystals, atoms, waterfalls, or galaxies.

In large measure, therefore, the teleological argument presented here and the special creationist worldview are mutually exclusive accounts of the world. In the last analysis, evidence for one is evidence against the other. Put simply, the more convincing is the evidence for believing that the world is prefabricated to the end of life, that the design is built into the laws of nature, the less credible becomes the special creationist worldview.

Michael Denton, Nature's Destiny 1998

A lot of creationists are now becoming evolutionists. Denton is just one of the more prominent ones.

Biogenic Law (OntogenyRecapitulates Phylogeny)

Refuted in the 1800s by Von Baer, an evolutionist. The pictures used to show similarities in embryos of different vertebrates (which are very real) are now generally photographs rather than drawings. Surprised?

The "gill slits" are in fact branchial arches. In very primitive fish, they all become gills. and arches supporting them. In more advanced fish, some become jaws. We have the same arches as fish do, but in our development, all the openings close and they form jaws and the bones of the middle ear. We start the same, but these structures become different things in each group of chordates.

Dr. G.S. McLean: "The chart is assembled from fossils found in India, South America, North America and Europe, then arranged in a neat sequential order of size, the smallest to the largest. There is no proof whatsoever that one member of the chart has evolved into another."

Indeed. The evolution of horses was a bush, with many offshoots, not a ladder. But fortunately, we have a very good series of transitionals from the start to our modern horses. Would you like to learn about those?

1. The horse series was constructed from fossils found in many different parts of the world and nowhere does this succession occur in one location.

We can go from Hyracotherium (first horselike creature) to Equus (modern horses) in the fossils found in North America. He lied to you about that, too.

The number of ribs varies within the series, up and down, between 15, 19 and 18. The number of lumbar vertebrae also changes from six to eight and then back to six.

In different groups of horses that split off. Did you know that the number also varies in the same species of modern horses? Surprise again.

3. Fossils of the three-toed and one-toed species are preserved in the same rock formation in Nebraska, proving that both lived at the same time, strongly suggesting that one did not evolve into the other

Ah, an old argument: "If you are alive, your uncle must be dead." :crazyeyes:

Hovind is an old hand at fraud. That's why he's locked up.
 
You know proof works two ways. You keep saying how Hovind is a fraud and he has no proof. But all we have from you is your word that what you're saying is true. And besides, not everything he said was false. There are tons of things that have been proven wrong about evolution. Just because Hitler says 2+2=4 doesn't mean it's not true just because he's hitler. Where's your proof that he's wrong?
 
E.g. his claim to have a doctorate. He bought it at a diploma mill. What he calls his dissertation wouldn't even pass as a term paper at my university.

Another lie by Hovind is his claim that his videos and so on are not copyrighted. I'll give you specific evidence of it if you like.

However...let's just pick a single claim made by Hovind which supposedely falsifies the theory of evolution, and we'll look at it in detail. I'll let you choose...what is Hovind's strongest argument?
 
For me his strongest arguement is the falsified evidence of evolutionists. The mothes on the trees, Lucy, etc... Along with the vestigal parts of animals. THERE IS NOT SUCH THING ANYWHERE IN NATURE OF USLESS PARTS.
 
YehwehPaladin said:
For me his strongest arguement is the falsified evidence of evolutionists. The mothes on the trees, Lucy, etc... Along with the vestigal parts of animals. THERE IS NOT SUCH THING ANYWHERE IN NATURE OF USLESS PARTS.

Wow.
 
jwu said:
What he calls his dissertation wouldn't even pass as a term paper at my university.

That's an opinion, not a fact.
 
That's an opinion, not a fact.
Please take a look there:
http://www.noanswersingenesis.org.au/ba ... thesis.htm


YehwehPaladin said:
For me his strongest arguement is the falsified evidence of evolutionists. The mothes on the trees, Lucy, etc...
What exactly is wrong with these? I'm not a particular fan of the peppered moth as evidence of evolution (there is much better stuff out there, such as endogenous retroviral sequences), but as far as i know it is valid. And it is merely evidence which among creationists is called microevolution - this concept is generally accepted by creationists by the way!

Along with the vestigal parts of animals. THERE IS NOT SUCH THING ANYWHERE IN NATURE OF USLESS PARTS.
Actually that is an excellent example of a lie by Hovind. "Vestigal" does not mean "useless". It describes organs or structures which clearly had a different function in the past than they have now.

Regarding useless parts...what about that muscle in the human head which some can "use" for wiggling the ears. What is that good for?
 
First of all, Microevolution is a fact, yes. But Micro does not lead to Macro. There is absolutely no evidence for any kind of connection between the two. And the black and white moths were faked. They were glued to the tree. Look it up yourself.

And here's your definition of vestigial.

1 a (1): a trace, mark, or visible sign left by something (as an ancient city or a condition or practice) vanished or lost (2): the smallest quantity or trace b: footprint 1
2: a bodily part or organ that is small and degenerate or imperfectly developed in comparison to one more fully developed in an earlier stage of the individual, in a past generation, or in closely related forms

It says nothing about alternate uses as evolutionists try to infer. It says that it is degenerate (something breaking down can't become something better) and it says it's imperfectly developed. I have a hard time accepting anything that evolutionists concider to be vestigial being called imperfect. They call the apendix vestigial but it's not. It's part of our immune system. We can live without it but you have a much bigger change of getting deseases (so i fail to see how it's degenerated). By their methods we can call our arms, legs, and eyes vestigial because you can survive with out it and we can use them for other things other than what they were intended for.

The so called vesitgial leg bones on a snake are used for love making (that's a critical use for survival, if it developed into that then what did they do before it developed?). Vestigial pelvis on a whale holds key muscles and ligiments in place (certainly hasn't lost any importance). Even our tail bone is concidered vestigial "because it has no apparent use" (yes, that's what your evolution textbooks say). It, like the whale pelvis, is a key fastening point and with out it we wouldn't be able to control certain muscular functions.
 
First of all, Microevolution is a fact, yes. But Micro does not lead to Macro. There is absolutely no evidence for any kind of connection between the two.
What is required for macroevolution that is not part of microevolution?

As previously mentioned, there is extremely strong evidence e.g. for common ancestry of humans and chimps, the aforementioned endogenous retroviral sequences.

And the black and white moths were faked. They were glued to the tree. Look it up yourself.
The pictures taken to illustrate the observation were staged, but the overall observation was real and repeatedly confirmed:

Cook, L. M., 2003. The rise and fall of the carbonaria form of the peppered moth. Quarterly Review of Biology 78(4): 399-417.

Grant, Bruce S., 1999. Fine tuning the peppered moth paradigm. Evolution 53(3): 980-984.

And here's your definition of vestigial.

1 a (1): a trace, mark, or visible sign left by something (as an ancient city or a condition or practice) vanished or lost (2): the smallest quantity or trace b: footprint 1
2: a bodily part or organ that is small and degenerate or imperfectly developed in comparison to one more fully developed in an earlier stage of the individual, in a past generation, or in closely related forms
Common language dictionaries are a lousy source for definitions of scientific terms. However, what is the problem with the definition provided there? Neither of the meanings provided by your own source say "useless", in contrast to what you previously claimed its meaning to be.

I have a hard time accepting anything that evolutionists concider to be vestigial being called imperfect.
Nature is so full of imperfection...

They call the apendix vestigial but it's not. It's part of our immune system. We can live without it but you have a much bigger change of getting deseases (so i fail to see how it's degenerated).
Yes, but so what? It originally was part of the digestive system. The effect on the immune system is a secondary one, which is what is retaining the selective pressure which prevents it from disappearing completely.

By their methods we can call our arms, legs, and eyes vestigial because you can survive with out it and we can use them for other things other than what they were intended for.
You're missing the concept altogether. Arms are not degenerated legs, but they have specialized for different jobs to a degree that makes them exceed the performance of the original legs at that job.
In what way were eyes intended to be used differently in the past?

The so called vesitgial leg bones on a snake are used for love making (that's a critical use for survival, if it developed into that then what did they do before it developed?).
You're actually proving my point. They clearly were leg bones in the past, and are now used for something else - but the original use is still visible. Regarding them being critical...they became critical because they were available for such use. This resulted in the loss of other ways by means of specialization.

Vestigial pelvis on a whale holds key muscles and ligiments in place (certainly hasn't lost any importance). Even our tail bone is concidered vestigial "because it has no apparent use" (yes, that's what your evolution textbooks say). It, like the whale pelvis, is a key fastening point and with out it we wouldn't be able to control certain muscular functions.
That's an unlucky choice of words on part of that textbook, which should be fixed. It doesn't change the point though - neither of these features are used for now what they originally were used for.

I note you didn't reply to my mention of those ear wiggling muscles in humans, which most humans cannot even make move.
And how about wisdom teeth? Are these good for anything in a way that exceeds their disadvantages?
 
For me his strongest arguement is the falsified evidence of evolutionists. The mothes on the trees, Lucy, etc... Along with the vestigal parts of animals. THERE IS NOT SUCH THING ANYWHERE IN NATURE OF USLESS PARTS.

Darwin's example is still the best. Of what use are perfectly-formed wings, permanently locked under the fused elytra of certain beetles?

Nothing can be plainer than that wings are formed for flight, yet in how many insects do we see wings so reduced in size as to be utterly incapable of flight, and not rarely lying under wing-cases, firmly soldered together!
Darwin, in The Origin of Species

That's not a rhetorical question. I'd like an answer.

Second up, there's a bit of misconception of "vestigial" here. The word does not necessarily mean "useless" as Darwin observed. It means that it has lost a former function. Hence, the human appendix is vestigial, because it is no longer a place to hold and ferment vegetable matter, although it might have some other function.
 
Even our tail bone is concidered vestigial "because it has no apparent use" (yes, that's what your evolution textbooks say).

No, that's not what they say. I review textbooks from time to time, and never saw that. What they say is that it's vestigial because it no longer serves its former use, that of an organ of balance.

It, like the whale pelvis, is a key fastening point and with out it we wouldn't be able to control certain muscular functions.

Horsefeathers. Coccygeal agenesis (total absence of tailbone) is a fairly common condition, and causes no symptoms at all. Indeed most people with it, have no idea unless an X-ray should show up the fact.

http://www.ajronline.org/cgi/reprint/115/3/611.pdf
 
YehwehPaladin said:
First of all, Microevolution is a fact, yes. But Micro does not lead to Macro. There is absolutely no evidence for any kind of connection between the two. And the black and white moths were faked. They were glued to the tree. Look it up yourself.

And here's your definition of vestigial.

1 a (1): a trace, mark, or visible sign left by something (as an ancient city or a condition or practice) vanished or lost (2): the smallest quantity or trace b: footprint 1
2: a bodily part or organ that is small and degenerate or imperfectly developed in comparison to one more fully developed in an earlier stage of the individual, in a past generation, or in closely related forms

It says nothing about alternate uses as evolutionists try to infer. It says that it is degenerate (something breaking down can't become something better) and it says it's imperfectly developed. I have a hard time accepting anything that evolutionists concider to be vestigial being called imperfect. They call the apendix vestigial but it's not. It's part of our immune system. We can live without it but you have a much bigger change of getting deseases (so i fail to see how it's degenerated). By their methods we can call our arms, legs, and eyes vestigial because you can survive with out it and we can use them for other things other than what they were intended for.

The so called vesitgial leg bones on a snake are used for love making (that's a critical use for survival, if it developed into that then what did they do before it developed?). Vestigial pelvis on a whale holds key muscles and ligiments in place (certainly hasn't lost any importance). Even our tail bone is concidered vestigial "because it has no apparent use" (yes, that's what your evolution textbooks say). It, like the whale pelvis, is a key fastening point and with out it we wouldn't be able to control certain muscular functions.

The problem is that you're confusing exaptations with vestigial structures.
 
Even in the face of "strong evidence",. . . . . .that doesn't necessarily mean that it was the case. We will always be a slave to our own human understandings, even the faulty ones, until the exact truth is known. Because today's science still makes statements that they call "fact" about ancient times, it isn't exact truth and will never be since it is probably impossible to gain THE evidence needed to make a truth statement.

When I say "exact truth", that doesn't necessarily mean "ABSOLUTE truth". But exact truth is, for example, "the effects of gravity on earth objects", "the speed of sound and light" [in normal earth space, not man manipulated]. . . . .

We may or may not have "evolved" and though there may SEEM to be some evidence out there, it is still up to human interpretation and not even close to "the whole evidence".

To me, I think the teaching of our beginnings is less important than teaching how to make our future better.
 
We may or may not have "evolved" and though there may SEEM to be some evidence out there, it is still up to human interpretation and not even close to "the whole evidence".
True...but there are things for which no other interpretation than evolution is known. And all that yet unknown evidence might as well favour evolution, just like every bit of evidence that has been found yet.

There remains a remote chance that it all is mistaken, but based on what is known yet i wouldn't put my money on that being the case.
 
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