Bible Study Experiencing God.

[Tenchi]

1 John 1:1-4 (NASB)
1 What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life—
2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us—
3 what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.
4 These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete.​

Often, I have encountered born-again followers of Christ who have very confused notions about what it is to experience God. I, too, once labored under the same misconceptions. Thankfully, God as liberated me from these faulty ideas about what it is to know and walk with Him. What am I talking about, exactly? Well, I mean confusing what I do in response to God's truth revealed in His word, what I do for God, with what He does to, and for, me. For example, I would point to my church attendance, prayer, Bible study and Christian service as instances of God acting in my life. I was doing all of these things because God on some obscure, fundamental level within me was acting upon me such that I would do them. I assumed that if the things I did were "godly," if they had some Christian character to them, then it was God that was ultimately enabling me to do them. And so, my belief was that, at bottom, my "Christian living" was an indicator of God at work in my life and thus doing these things was "experiencing God."

Maybe you can see the serious problems with this thinking. For one, any hypocrite could live the life I was living, going to church, praying, and even studying the Bible. How, then, was doing these things proof-positive of God in my life? The Pharisees of Jesus's day were professionally obedient to God's law, even adding to it their own mountainous collection of traditions and rules of piety; they prayed great, swelling prayers; they oriented their lives entirely around the religion of the Jews, making sacrifice to God and paying tithes. But Jesus said the hearts of the Pharisees were far from God, that their religious activity was not about God but about themselves. (Matthew 15:7-9; Matthew 23)

Religious activity, then, is not certain evidence of God in one's life. This isn't to say that God is never connected to such activity in the lives of born-again people, however, only that such activity is not always an indicator of God and is certainly not what the Bible actually says constitutes a believer's basic, universal, genuine experience of God.

What about the sensational, "supernatural" stuff the hyper-charismatic folk constantly pursue? Surely, being "slain in the Spirit," rolling about on the floor in a violent paroxysm of spiritual power, is a very direct and potent experience of God. And what about the intense spiritual hysterics that grip these people regularly? Is it not unequivocal proof of God's presence, are they not experiencing God, when they babble incoherently, or laugh, or weep, or shout uncontrollably, or stagger about "drunk" in the Spirit?

Well, all of these experiences have a direct parallel in pagan worship. Many centuries before modern Christians were doing these things, mystic religions of the East were caught up in them, manifesting demonic power, not God. What distinguishes these pagan experiences of the demonic from Christian experiences of God? Often, it is simply the invocation of God, the simple assertion that He is active in such experiences, that is supposed to sanctify them. That incoherent babbling, convulsions, and hysterical states happen in a "Christian" venue for "Christian" purposes is also supposed to guarantee that there is nothing of the demonic in them. Is this a reasonable conclusion to make?

How about the meditative, mystical experience of God obtained by decades of ascetic deprivation and seclusion? Hasn't the cloistered saint who, through long, uninterrupted contemplation of God entered into a "new" or "special" experience of Him, shown us all the way to true communion with Him? Unless we're prepared to enter into such a single-minded pursuit of God, how can we hope to experience Him in the same way? But for most of us such a life is not practically feasible and so we must content ourselves with a lesser, more distant and ritualistic interaction with the Divine.

None of these sorts of "experiences" of God are what the Bible itself describes as a real, certain experience of God. Following are a number of the things the Bible indicates distinguish the work of God upon His children, their experience of Him, from mere religiosity or spiritualized fleshly sensuality, or monastic mysticism. All of these things are enacted by the Holy Spirit upon every person he has spiritually-regenerated:

1.) Conviction of sin, righteousness and divine judgment. (John 16:8)

The Holy Spirit acts to convict the lost sinner of their sin, by doing so moving them toward the invitation of fellowship with God offered in the Gospel of Salvation. (1 Corinthians 1:9; 2 Corinthians 13:14; 1 John 1:3) This is not mere human guiltiness, the shame-producing prick of one's conscience that anyone - Christian or atheist - may feel, but a heart-level desire to be reconciled to God. Guilt and shame drive people away from God into hiding, as it did Adam and Even in Eden. The Spirit's convicting work upon an individual, however, prompts in them a yearning for forgiveness and peace between themselves and God, for fellowship with Him. (Romans 5:10-12; Romans 8:15; 2 Corinthians 5:17-20; Colossians 1:20-22)

The Spirit also convicts people of righteousness, distinguishing to them what is truly righteous from demonic, worldly and fleshly counterfeits of righteousness. He does this through Scripture and, more particularly, through the revelation of divine righteousness in the Person of Christ who conquered Sin and Death and is seated now at God's right hand (1 Corinthians 1:30; 2 Corinthians 5:21; 2 Peter 1:1). It is not mere moral living about which the Spirit convinces the born-again person but the perfection of righteousness exemplified in the Savior, Jesus Christ whose example we are to follow and whose righteous perfection is imparted to us in the Holy Spirit. (1 John 4:13; Romans 8:9-15; John 14:16-17; Titus 3:5, etc.)

God's judgement waits for all. He will subdue all of His enemies, bringing every one to account for their living. He has already defeated Satan through the Atonement and will one day cause every knee to bow and every tongue to confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Of this certainty the Spirit works to convince all, but particularly those who are God's children, in such conviction giving them cause for great joy. (Philippians 2:5-11; 1 Timothy 4:1; 1 Peter 4:5; Matthew 16:26-27, 1 John 4:16-17, etc.)


2.) Illumination of divine Truth. (John 14:26; John 16:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10-16)

When the Holy Spirit illuminates the truth of God to the mind and heart of a genuine child of God, mere accumulation of knowledge is not the result. Any atheist or Muslim apologist keen to confound the Christian from their own sacred text does this, studying God's word carefully, collecting biblical data, even memorizing Scripture, in order to show the Christian's faith to be contradictory and foolish. The accretion of biblical knowledge, then, is not necessarily a sign of God at work in a person. Instead, when the believer experiences the illumination of the Holy Spirit, they are inevitably transformed and made more and more like Jesus (Romans 8:29; 2 Corinthians 4:7-11; Galatians 5:22-23). Here, then, is an important distinguishing feature of an experience of God - that is, of the Holy Spirit who is God. As the Spirit teaches divine Truth to the believer, they are changed in their desires, beliefs and attitudes, increasingly reflecting God's Truth in their practical, daily living.

To be continued.

 

[hawkman]

What about the sensational, "supernatural" stuff the hyper-charismatic folk constantly pursue? Surely, being "slain in the Spirit," rolling about on the floor in a violent paroxysm of spiritual power, is a very direct and potent experience of God. And what about the intense spiritual hysterics that grip these people regularly? Is it not unequivocal proof of God's presence, are they not experiencing God, when they babble incoherently, or laugh, or weep, or shout uncontrollably, or stagger about "drunk" in the Spirit?

Well, all of these experiences have a direct parallel in pagan worship. Many centuries before modern Christians were doing these things, mystic religions of the East were caught up in them, manifesting demonic power, not God. What distinguishes these pagan experiences of the demonic from Christian experiences of God? Often, it is simply the invocation of God, the simple assertion that He is active in such experiences, that is supposed to sanctify them. That incoherent babbling, convulsions, and hysterical states happen in a "Christian" venue for "Christian" purposes is also supposed to guarantee that there is nothing of the demonic in them. Is this a reasonable conclusion to make?

What I can tell you about is me . I am Pentecostal and I have the gift of tongues , the gift of tongues was given to me at the time I was born again . Have I ever pursued the supernatural ? No. But where are the places the "supernatural" stuff found me ? On my couch playing guitar , driving down the highway , looking at a painting , praying in my front yard .
Don't dismiss what you may not understand .
I will be glad to field any questions you have .

 

[Tenchi]

What I can tell you about is me . I am Pentecostal and I have the gift of tongues , the gift of tongues was given to me at the time I was born again . Have I ever pursued the supernatural ? No. But where are the places the "supernatural" stuff found me ? On my couch playing guitar , driving down the highway , looking at a painting , praying in my front yard .
Don't dismiss what you may not understand .
I will be glad to field any questions you have .

Just to be clear: I'm not a hard cessationist. I'm wanting to explain what the Bible itself lays out as the common experience of God every believer can expect to have. I'm pretty sure you've seen hyper-charismatic events where there was utter chaos rather than the self-control, peace, gentleness and order the Bible says is characteristic of the Spirit. (Galatians 5:22-23; 1 Corinthians 14:33; Ephesians 5:9; Matthew 11:28-30; James 3:17-18) Do you think God causes folks to convulse wildly on the floor, or bray like donkeys, or laugh or weep hysterically for prolonged periods of time? In all of Scripture, the only people who behaved at all like this were demon possessed! (Matthew 17:14-18; Mark 9:14-27; Mark 5:1-19)

I am agnostic about private, personal tongues-speaking. It may be a gift - a lesser one, apparently - that God imparts to some. And I don't deny that God may heal folks miraculously when it serves to advance His kingdom in a spiritually-contested region of the world, or as a blessing to His children and a witness to His presence and power. The soaking, toking, or drunkenness in the Spirit stuff, or "fire corridors," or being "slain in the Spirit" practices are without any basis whatever in Scripture, however, and are, I think pretty blasphemous.

In any case, if I exclude anything as a legitimate experience of God it will be because there is no good ground for it in God's word. I'm sure you don't have a problem with this standard, do you?

 

[Hopeful]

Want to experience God?
Love your neighbor as you love yourself.

 

[hawkman]

Just to be clear: I'm not a hard cessationist.

Glad to hear that .

I'm wanting to explain what the Bible itself lays out as the common experience of God every believer can expect to have.

Sure , just don't discount the possibility of the believer receiving a Gift of the Holy Spirit .

I'm pretty sure you've seen hyper-charismatic events where there was utter chaos rather than the self-control, peace, gentleness and order the Bible says is characteristic of the Spirit.

Not in person ,but I have seen videos .

Do you think God causes folks to convulse wildly on the floor, or bray like donkeys, or laugh or weep hysterically for prolonged periods of time? In all of Scripture, the only people who behaved at all like this were demon possessed!

If I was to see an event in person like you mentioned the Holy Spirit would let me know what is true or false . But I have not seen such in person .

I am agnostic about private, personal tongues-speaking.

I will have to say I am all in on prayer tongues and speaking in tongues . Once the Holy Spirit speaks through you there is no going back .

It may be a gift - a lesser one, apparently - that God imparts to some.

Like all the Gifts of the Holy Spirit , some have more than one gift or sometimes none . I would say you have the Gift of teaching .

And I don't deny that God may heal folks miraculously when it serves to advance His kingdom in a spiritually-contested region of the world, or as a blessing to His children and a witness to His presence and power.

Yes, people are prayed for and healing takes place

The soaking, toking, or drunkenness in the Spirit stuff, or "fire corridors," or being "slain in the Spirit" practices are without any basis whatever in Scripture, however, and are, I think pretty blasphemous.

The first three look very sketchy from the videos I have seen . I have seen people "slain in the Spirit " , I have not been slain in the fashion I have seen in church . But God can put you out if he so desires to , and you may not even know you were out . I must ask , what is "fire corridors" ? Never heard of that one !

In any case, if I exclude anything as a legitimate experience of God it will be because there is no good ground for it in God's word. I'm sure you don't have a problem with this standard, do you?

No problem .

 

[Tenchi]

Want to experience God?
Love your neighbor as you love yourself.

This is what you are doing for God, in response to His command. I'm writing about what He does to you, what He does in you, that cannot be mistaken for your effort. In discipling men over the years, I've often encountered this confusion: What I do for God is my experience of God. This isn't what Scripture teaches, however. As my OP to this thread explained, the fruit of God's work, or, more precisely, the Holy Spirit's work, in me is not identical to God Himself and what He does in me in order that such fruit might be produced. But, often, Christians equate the two, describing an experience of God in terms of what they are doing for Him.

In this thread, I'm going to be delineating God's work in His children from their response to His work, and from their attempts to do His work for Him.

 

[Tenchi]

I have seen people "slain in the Spirit " , I have not been slain in the fashion I have seen in church .

I included this because there is nowhere in all of the Bible where the phrase "slain in the Spirit" appears. There is certainly no teaching on this in the Bible at all.

But God can put you out if he so desires to , and you may not even know you were out .

The only people I know of in the New Testament who were "put out" by God were "put out" permanently. I'm referring to lying Ananias and his wife Sapphira (Acts 5:1-11). God did not convulse them first, though, He did no violence to them, throwing them about and/or making them hysterical. Instead, Ananias and his wife simply dropped to the ground dead.

In His word, God repeats to us many times that the marks of His Spirit are peace, rest, order, calm, gentleness and self-control. When I watch hyper-charismatic events, I see none of these things in evidence. The similarity to eastern, pagan mystical practices, though, is shocking. These things should give believers very sharp pause as they consider their participation in such events.

I must ask , what is "fire corridors" ? Never heard of that one !

It's a literal hallway (corridor) along which young people are told walk. As they do, they can expect to be assaulted by the Holy Spirit. It's not put this way, but it's what happens. The Holy Spirit will "come upon" the teens, imbuing them with special spiritual power, but in the process doing all the usual, violent, chaotic things to them the hyper-charismatics have championed as normal spiritual experiences. What these "fire corridors" really are, though, are examples of the power of Group-Think and suggestion upon young minds. I strongly suspect the demonic is active in such instances, too. The few videos I've seen of this practice were difficult to watch and made me very angry. The feeling of watching something obscene was distinct and powerful.

I will have to say I am all in on prayer tongues and speaking in tongues . Once the Holy Spirit speaks through you there is no going back .

Okay. Just be certain, brother, of the source of your tongues experiences. Examine thoroughly your motives and reasons for such experiences. Is it really the Holy Spirit speaking in/through you? By what biblical means do you ascertain this? To what particular spiritual end are you speaking in tongues? Is that end working toward God's ends expressed in His word? How do you know?

Thanks for the feedback!

 

[Tenchi]

Experiencing God continued:


3). Strengthening in times of temptation and trial. (Ephesians 3:16)

Perhaps more than in any other, in this area of spiritual empowerment Christians get very confused. Men, especially, often want to "dig deep" and fight temptation in their own fleshly reservoirs of will and strength. This is what Christian men often mean when they say to each other, "Be a man!" The born-again man who is struggling with a porn addiction, or an addiction to cigarettes, or a gaming addiction, just needs to "tough it out," to "try their best" and stumble through (hopefully, eventually) to victory over their sin.

But this is to pursue a godly, spiritual end by carnal, fleshly means. God has warned His children, however, that such attempts end only in corruption and death of some kind.

Galatians 3:1-3 (NASB)
1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?
2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Galatians 6:7-8 (NASB)
7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption...
It is "sowing to the flesh" to try to achieve by fleshly means the life of the Spirit. Sowing seeds of fleshly self-effort only produces a harvest of Self and the flesh. (Galatians 5:19-20) And that fleshly "harvest" corrupts spiritual living, hindering what the Spirit seeks to accomplish in the one whom he's made his temple. (1 Corinthians 6:19-20) God, you see, will not share His glory with any other. He gets all the glory for our salvation and He continues to receive all the glory for our spiritual transformation. This is corrupted when Self intrudes upon God's transforming work and seeks by its own power to accomplish godly ends. If a man or woman can stroke themselves, thinking they have achieved some measure of godliness by their own strength, to the degree they do so, they "steal" God's glory.

Romans 11:18 (NASB)
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.

John 15:5 (NASB)
5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

1 Corinthians 1:26-31 (NASB)
26 For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble;
27 but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong,
28 and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are,
29 so that no man may boast before God.
30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,
31 so that, just as it is written, "Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord."

2 Corinthians 10:17 (NASB)
17 But he who boasts is to boast in the Lord.

Galatians 6:12-14 (NASB)
12 Those who desire to make a good showing in the flesh try to compel you to be circumcised, simply so that they will not be persecuted for the cross of Christ.
13 For those who are circumcised do not even keep the Law themselves, but they desire to have you circumcised so that they may boast in your flesh.
14 But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

1 Corinthians 4:7 (NASB)
7 For who regards you as superior? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?

Having received from God spiritual life and the wherewithal to do His will, the born-again person has nothing whereof to boast. The haven't saved themselves and they cannot, apart from God, change themselves as He intends they should. Oh, it's certainly possible for a person in their own strength to accomplish change in themselves. Non-believers are able to stop smoking, or abandon alcohol, or leave off porn, or learn to look away from hurts of the past, and so on. When God acts upon His child, then, what's the difference? If a person can change themselves, why depend upon God to do so?

Well, many Christians thinking in this way set about to do for God, to obey Him and alter who they are by dint of their own effort. Is it possible to distinguish this fleshly, Self-effort from a God-empowered transformation? Yes, absolutely. Here's how:

- Does changing who you are leave you exhausted? At the end of some process of reformation, are you barely hanging on, always at the cliff's edge of yielding to the habits and practices of the past, straining to keep your "old Self" corralled? If so, you can be sure you're doing the changing, not God.

God has limitless power. He doesn't ever "run out of gas"; His strength can never be exhausted. And so, when He applies to us His power, we don't grow exhausted, but go from strength to strength, becoming more enabled to conform to His will, not pushed to the cliff's edge of change where we hang on by our fingernails.

Isaiah 40:28-31 (NASB)
28 Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth Does not become weary or tired. His understanding is inscrutable.
29 He gives strength to the weary, And to him who lacks might He increases power.
30 Though youths grow weary and tired, And vigorous young men stumble badly,
31 Yet those who wait for the LORD Will gain new strength; They will mount up with wings like eagles, They will run and not get tired, They will walk and not become weary.
Philippians 2:13 (NASB)
13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

- At the end of a process of change, do you know more about God, or only more about yourself? Has the process of change revealed God to you, or just the boundaries of your own capacities? Have you seen the power of God working mightily in you, changing those things you thought impossible to change? Or are you merely more aware of your own limitations, perhaps, too, of psychological tricks that work, inconsistently, to manipulate you toward change? Are you more focused upon yourself after the process of change, or upon your holy Maker? If you have only increased your knowledge of yourself, you have been doing the changing, not God.

2 Corinthians 3:18 (NASB)
18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

Philippians 1:6 (NASB)
6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

Colossians 1:9-10 (NASB)
9 For this reason also, since the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding,
10 so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;

- God's power always works to produce the Fruit of the Spirit. (Romans 8:29; Galatians 5:22-23; Ephesians 5:9) When God is changing you, the result is always a marked decline in self-interest and self-expression and an increase in both the desire and ability to manifest Christ. In particular, a person whom God has changed does not seek praise, or acknowledgement, or even the goodwill of others, but joyfully serves Him whatever the cost, and however little the effort of doing so is recognized by others. They do so humbly, patiently, lovingly and meekly, without carnal contentiousness, seeking the spiritual well-being of the Church no matter the required sacrifice. What matters is that God knows and is pleased with them, not that they gain the approbation of their fellow human beings. Is this the "fruit" of the process of change in your own life? Is Christ more clearly manifested in you as a result?

2 Corinthians 4:6-11 (NASB)
6 For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the surpassing greatness of the power will be of God and not from ourselves;
8 we are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not despairing;
9 persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed;
10 always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body.
11 For we who live are constantly being delivered over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh.


To be continued.

 

[hawkman]

I included this because there is nowhere in all of the Bible where the phrase "slain in the Spirit" appears. There is certainly no teaching on this in the Bible at all.

True, the phrase "slain in the Spirit " does not appear . But we are told of instances of similar , Saul (not yet Paul) 4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? .

Ezekiel 1:28​

28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

Revelation 1:17​

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Bottom line is this the person that experiences the "slain in the Spirit" and God are the only ones that know for sure . Wouldn't you agree ?

The only people I know of in the New Testament who were "put out" by God were "put out" permanently. I'm referring to lying Ananias and his wife Sapphira (Acts 5:1-11). God did not convulse them first, though, He did no violence to them, throwing them about and/or making them hysterical. Instead, Ananias and his wife simply dropped to the ground dead.

In His word, God repeats to us many times that the marks of His Spirit are peace, rest, order, calm, gentleness and self-control. When I watch hyper-charismatic events, I see none of these things in evidence. The similarity to eastern, pagan mystical practices, though, is shocking. These things should give believers very sharp pause as they consider their participation in such events.

I will describe what it was like for me . This happened after a time of prayer in the Spirit outside in the dark in my front yard . Other things were going on that same night before this but I am not sharing that . As I was praying all at once I was unable to pray anymore my tongue would no longer work and my jaw felt as if it had come unhinged and then it felt like all the connecting tissue of all my joints melted away (this happened while I was sitting down) . It was like nothing I had ever felt before .

It's a literal hallway (corridor) along which young people are told walk. As they do, they can expect to be assaulted by the Holy Spirit. It's not put this way, but it's what happens. The Holy Spirit will "come upon" the teens, imbuing them with special spiritual power, but in the process doing all the usual, violent, chaotic things to them the hyper-charismatics have championed as normal spiritual experiences. What these "fire corridors" really are, though, are examples of the power of Group-Think and suggestion upon young minds. I strongly suspect the demonic is active in such instances, too. The few videos I've seen of this practice were difficult to watch and made me very angry. The feeling of watching something obscene was distinct and powerful.

Wow , ok that does not sound right at all !

Okay. Just be certain, brother, of the source of your tongues experiences.

I have never had any doubt .

Examine thoroughly your motives and reasons for such experiences.

I have never had "motives" or "reasons" , the Holy Spirit moves as He sees fit to . I am a willing vessel .

Is it really the Holy Spirit speaking in/through you?

Again , I have no doubt . I do not know what the prayer language is but I do hear two names I know, Eli and Allah .

By what biblical means do you ascertain this?

Everything that has happened with me and the Holy Spirit lines up with the bible .

To what particular spiritual end are you speaking in tongues? Is that end working toward God's ends expressed in His word? How do you know?

I pray in tongues when the words of my mind don't come for my needs . The Holy Spirit prays for you .

Thanks for the feedback!

I think I got all your questions , If I missed anything let me know .

 

[Hopeful]

This is what you are doing for God, in response to His command. I'm writing about what He does to you, what He does in you, that cannot be mistaken for your effort. In discipling men over the years, I've often encountered this confusion: What I do for God is my experience of God. This isn't what Scripture teaches, however. As my OP to this thread explained, the fruit of God's work, or, more precisely, the Holy Spirit's work, in me is not identical to God Himself and what He does in me in order that such fruit might be produced. But, often, Christians equate the two, describing an experience of God in terms of what they are doing for Him.

In this thread, I'm going to be delineating God's work in His children from their response to His work, and from their attempts to do His work for Him.

By trying to differentiate what God does through me and what I do naturally because of my new divine nature is really splitting hairs.
I can't wait to see what you present.

 

[Tenchi]

By trying to differentiate what God does through me and what I do naturally because of my new divine nature is really splitting hairs.

Oh? Why?

 

[Tenchi]

I can't wait to see what you present.

I guess you haven't understood what I've already written in this thread...

 

[Hopeful]

Oh? Why?

Because we are one.

 

[Tenchi]

Because we are one.

I don't know what you mean... Can you explain?

 

[Tenchi]

True, the phrase "slain in the Spirit " does not appear . But we are told of instances of similar , Saul (not yet Paul) 4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? .

Hmmm... does this really sound like being "slain in the Spirit" to you? Paul wasn't seeking a meeting with God; he wasn't looking to be knocked to the ground and confronted by Christ. There was no Benny Hinn character pushing him on the forehead, or waving his suit-coat jacket at him. And though the description of the event is given, there is no accompanying prescription, no "and so it should be for all Christians." What's more, there is no explicit teaching in the NT on being "slain in the Spirit." Not one contributor to the NT says anything at all about such a thing being a common and/or expected feature of Christian living.

Ezekiel 1:28​

28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

So, here, too there is a description but no prescription for others to do likewise. There are many things described in Scripture that are not intended to prescribe behavior for everyone else. Jesus walked on water, for instance. Jesus is our example, so shouldn't we all walk on water, too, then? Samson was filled with the Spirit and killed a thousand enemies with the jawbone of a donkey. Christians have the Spirit in them, too, so should they go to war with their enemies and kill them, then? King David, a man after God's own heart, stole another man's wife and then killed him. Ought we to do likewise? And so on. The mere description of a thing in Scripture doesn't constitute a prescription. Thinking that it does commits the Is-Ought Fallacy.

Revelation 1:17​

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

And where is the prescription for others in this account? Who else in all of the Early Church had a vision like John's? Where is it plainly taught in the NT that Christians ought to be having the very same sort of experience?

Bottom line is this the person that experiences the "slain in the Spirit" and God are the only ones that know for sure . Wouldn't you agree ?

Well, when it comes to matters pertaining to God, the Bible, we're told, is sufficient to inform us of correct doctrine, to indicate to us when we're going wrong in our thinking or conduct, and to direct us into righteous living. (2 Timothy 3:16-17) The Bible is a "lamp unto my feet and light unto my path." (Psalm 119:105) And so, if someone wants to tell me that something they've experienced, or believe, or do is of God, then I'm going to put it under the light and truth of His word and see if, in fact, it says it is of Him. If it doesn't, I think this gives me very good grounds to reject the experience a person is claiming is of God as truly being of Him.

I will describe what it was like for me . This happened after a time of prayer in the Spirit outside in the dark in my front yard . Other things were going on that same night before this but I am not sharing that . As I was praying all at once I was unable to pray anymore my tongue would no longer work and my jaw felt as if it had come unhinged and then it felt like all the connecting tissue of all my joints melted away (this happened while I was sitting down) . It was like nothing I had ever felt before .

And so, because this experience was highly unusual and corresponding in time to certain recent actions and events, it was undoubtedly of God? Have you ever heard the philosophical truism, "Correlation doesn't mean causation"? The idea it is expressing is that correlating things to each other in time, or physical proximity, doesn't mean that these things necessarily have any causal relationship. For example, if Joe burped at the supper table and a half-second later a car back-fired outside, it wouldn't follow that Joe's burp caused the back-fire, even though the two things can be closely related to each other in time. As well, if Joe was in a rainstorm and stood under the big oak tree in his yard to get out of the rain and it got struck by lightning when he did, it doesn't follow that Joe's proximity to the tree caused the lightning to strike the tree.

In the same way, I would urge you to be careful not to assume that correlation among the things you've described therefore means there is a causal relationship of some sort between them. It doesn't follow necessarily that your praying and the sudden, strange physical sensations you had are related in a causal way to each other because they are situated to one another closely in time. You'll need way more data than you have before you can confidently make such a conclusion. And nothing I see in Scripture suggests that the physical experience was likely from God.

I have never had "motives" or "reasons" , the Holy Spirit moves as He sees fit to . I am a willing vessel .

There is a good reason why King David prayed, "Search me, O God, and know my heart. Try me and know my thoughts and see if there by any wicked way in me." (Psalm 139:23) We are all of us notoriously and easily self-deceived. Often we don't see our own motives clearly at all and are operating from subconscious desires and beliefs. And so, we need to examine ourselves in the Light of God's word and under the convicting power of the Holy Spirit before we can see the truth of things within our own hearts and minds.

Again , I have no doubt . I do not know what the prayer language is but I do hear two names I know, Eli and Allah .

Allah is a false god. He is quite unlike Jehovah in some very fundamental ways. Be careful, brother.

 

[Hopeful]

I don't know what you mean... Can you explain?

Those "in Christ" are one with Him, just as Jesus was one with the Father.
So, did Jesus do the miracles? Or did God do them through Jesus?
They are one, so it doesn't matter which answer you supply.

 

[Tenchi]

Those "in Christ" are one with Him, just as Jesus was one with the Father.
So, did Jesus do the miracles? Or did God do them through Jesus?
They are one, so it doesn't matter which answer you supply.

Are you divine, then? Can you create a universe? Can you sustain one, moment-by-moment, by your will and power? Are you omniscient? Are you omnipresent? No, you are not capable of these things nor do you possess these attributes. How, then, are you "one" with God, exactly? You aren't one with Him in these respects. In what other respects are you not one with Him?

 

[Hopeful]

Are you divine, then? Can you create a universe? Can you sustain one, moment-by-moment, by your will and power? Are you omniscient? Are you omnipresent? No, you are not capable of these things nor do you possess these attributes. How, then, are you "one" with God, exactly? You aren't one with Him in these respects. In what other respects are you not one with Him?

Nope, but God in me can do all that.
Wasn't Jesus one with the Father?
Yet Jesus didn't know when the last day would happen.

 

[hawkman]

Hmmm... does this really sound like being "slain in the Spirit" to you? Paul wasn't seeking a meeting with God; he wasn't looking to be knocked to the ground and confronted by Christ. There was no Benny Hinn character pushing him on the forehead, or waving his suit-coat jacket at him. And though the description of the event is given, there is no accompanying prescription, no "and so it should be for all Christians." What's more, there is no explicit teaching in the NT on being "slain in the Spirit." Not one contributor to the NT says anything at all about such a thing being a common and/or expected feature of Christian living.

To be honest I never knew what to make of "slain in the Spirit " either . But then after something similar happened to me what was I to think . Do I believe everything I see on TV , of course not .

Well, when it comes to matters pertaining to God, the Bible, we're told, is sufficient to inform us of correct doctrine, to indicate to us when we're going wrong in our thinking or conduct, and to direct us into righteous living. (2 Timothy 3:16-17) The Bible is a "lamp unto my feet and light unto my path." (Psalm 119:105) And so, if someone wants to tell me that something they've experienced, or believe, or do is of God, then I'm going to put it under the light and truth of His word and see if, in fact, it says it is of Him. If it doesn't, I think this gives me very good grounds to reject the experience a person is claiming is of God as truly being of Him.

The supernatural things that come from God don't necessarily have to be duplicates of what happened in the bible . And yes they do have to conform to the will of God . The Holy Spirit will let the Christian know .

And so, because this experience was highly unusual and corresponding in time to certain recent actions and events, it was undoubtedly of God? Have you ever heard the philosophical truism, "Correlation doesn't mean causation"? The idea it is expressing is that correlating things to each other in time, or physical proximity, doesn't mean that these things necessarily have any causal relationship. For example, if Joe burped at the supper table and a half-second later a car back-fired outside, it wouldn't follow that Joe's burp caused the back-fire, even though the two things can be closely related to each other in time. As well, if Joe was in a rainstorm and stood under the big oak tree in his yard to get out of the rain and it got struck by lightning when he did, it doesn't follow that Joe's proximity to the tree caused the lightning to strike the tree.

In the same way, I would urge you to be careful not to assume that correlation among the things you've described therefore means there is a causal relationship of some sort between them. It doesn't follow necessarily that your praying and the sudden, strange physical sensations you had are related in a causal way to each other because they are situated to one another closely in time. You'll need way more data than you have before you can confidently make such a conclusion. And nothing I see in Scripture suggests that the physical experience was likely from God.

I apologize that I have not given you enough info on what was happening the night I was put under . The other thing that was happening before and during going under is something I had read of many times in the Old Testament . That is one of the reasons I have absolutely no doubt .

There is a good reason why King David prayed, "Search me, O God, and know my heart. Try me and know my thoughts and see if there by any wicked way in me." (Psalm 139:23) We are all of us notoriously and easily self-deceived. Often we don't see our own motives clearly at all and are operating from subconscious desires and beliefs. And so, we need to examine ourselves in the Light of God's word and under the convicting power of the Holy Spirit before we can see the truth of things within our own hearts and minds.

Of course .

Allah is a false god. He is quite unlike Jehovah in some very fundamental ways. Be careful, brother.

The name Allah , I thought just like you so I was going , Allah? So my prayer language must be of Arabic origin or similar . Christians use the name Allah . Read about name Allah here . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah

From the link .
Allah has been used as a term for God by Muslims (both Arab and non-Arab) and even Arab Christians[10] after the term "al-ilāh" and "Allah" were used interchangeably in Classical Arabic by the majority of Arabs who had become Muslims. It is also often, albeit not exclusively, used in this way by Bábists, Baháʼís, Mandaeans, Indonesian and Maltese Christians, and Sephardi Jews,[11][12][13] as well as by the Gagauz people.[14] Similar usage by Christians and Sikhs in West Malaysia has recently led to political and legal controversies.

 

[Tenchi]

Nope, but God in me can do all that.

But you can't. What do you mean, then, that you are one with Him? Is the ketchup in its bottle one with the bottle? Or does the bottle merely contain the ketchup? Well, can you pour the bottle on your french fries and eat it? No, only the ketchup.

Wasn't Jesus one with the Father?

Jesus was God incarnate. You and I are not. We did not set aside heavenly glory to become men. We were not with God, and were God, creating all things as Jesus was and did. Your comparison is, therefore, profoundly inappropriate.