Bible Study Experiencing God.

[Tenchi]

To be honest I never knew what to make of "slain in the Spirit " either .

Well, it's not that I don't know what to make it of it. For the reasons I've explained, I'm confident it isn't of God.

But then after something similar happened to me what was I to think . Do I believe everything I see on TV , of course not .

As I explained, your question here is answered, at least for me, by analysis of what God says in His word. Does my experience that I want to say is from God have any solid ground in His word? If not, well, I ought not say that it is.

The supernatural things that come from God don't necessarily have to be duplicates of what happened in the bible .

Not in their specific and minute details, no. But they do have to have clear support and precedent in the Bible. Again, though, description does not equal prescription.

The other thing that was happening before and during going under is something I had read of many times in the Old Testament . That is one of the reasons I have absolutely no doubt .

I don't know of any "going under" that the Bible describes... And even if it does, is it something God prescribes for all of His children? If not, one should be very careful about the experience and about urging others to anticipate such an experience themselves. Only one man has ever had a burning-bush experience with God; only one man was able to tear the main gates off of a city's wall with his bare hands and carry them up a nearby hill; only one man confronted the priests of Baal in a fiery showdown and defeated them all; only one man walked on the stormy waves of Galilee toward Jesus, and so on. That we might find such occasions recorded in the Bible doesn't mean we should expect them to be repeated or that similar things are common to the Christian's experience of God.

The name Allah , I thought just like you so I was going , Allah?

I've done my own research on the name "Allah" some years ago now and am aware of its use by some as an alternative to Jehovah and/or God. Nonetheless, it is much more commonly used to refer to the false god of the Islamic religion, a god quite unlike the God of the Bible, and thus my warning to you. Especially when "Allah" to you hasn't the same cultural/religious character it has to someone in the Middle East, its appearance in your thinking doesn't suggest a divine origin.

Can I ask: How do distinguish between what is of God and what is a demonic counterfeit?

 

[hawkman]

Well, it's not that I don't know what to make it of it. For the reasons I've explained, I'm confident it isn't of God.

FWIW I don't think I was "slain in the Spirit " it was something different but maybe similar . I have no problem with what you are saying . I still hold by my bottom line mentioned earlier .

As I explained, your question here is answered, at least for me, by analysis of what God says in His word. Does my experience that I want to say is from God have any solid ground in His word? If not, well, I ought not say that it is.

I am glad you have your answer . My answers will come in due time .

Not in their specific and minute details, no. But they do have to have clear support and precedent in the Bible. Again, though, description does not equal prescription.

Do you think every supernatural event God has done (on this earth) or is going to do is in the Bible ?

I don't know of any "going under" that the Bible describes... And even if it does, is it something God prescribes for all of His children? If not, one should be very careful about the experience and about urging others to anticipate such an experience themselves. Only one man has ever had a burning-bush experience with God; only one man was able to tear the main gates off of a city's wall with his bare hands and carry them up a nearby hill; only one man confronted the priests of Baal in a fiery showdown and defeated them all; only one man walked on the stormy waves of Galilee toward Jesus, and so on. That we might find such occasions recorded in the Bible doesn't mean we should expect them to be repeated or that similar things are common to the Christian's experience of God.

The reason I did tell of being "put under" is to say it is possible but as you say not much in the way of likely God could do this to someone , it could be rare as hens teeth . Do you notice this about experiences you speak of above, they are all very different from each other . I have thought about how even knowing God was in control Elijah still felt his loneliness, I understand that now . 1Kings19

I've done my own research on the name "Allah" some years ago now and am aware of its use by some as an alternative to Jehovah and/or God. Nonetheless, it is much more commonly used to refer to the false god of the Islamic religion, a god quite unlike the God of the Bible, and thus my warning to you. Especially when "Allah" to you hasn't the same cultural/religious character it has to someone in the Middle East, its appearance in your thinking doesn't suggest a divine origin.

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

When a Christian speaks in tongues the Holy Spirit is the one talking , utterance . The words that proceed from my mouth are not words I am thinking to say at all . The Holy Spirit makes use of my tongue and my speech faculties . It is a supernatural event inside of me . The words that come out are from the Holy Spirit . The Holy Spirit speaking through me said Allah and Eli . Do you grasp any at all what I am saying ?

Can I ask: How do distinguish between what is of God and what is a demonic counterfeit?

By the power of the Holy Spirit . Have you ever had the Holy Spirit communicate to you in some form or fashion ?

 

[Hopeful]

But you can't. What do you mean, then, that you are one with Him? Is the ketchup in its bottle one with the bottle? Or does the bottle merely contain the ketchup? Well, can you pour the bottle on your french fries and eat it? No, only the ketchup.

Is the finger one with the hand?
Is the ear one with the head?
I am surprised you can't understand.

Jesus was God incarnate. You and I are not. We did not set aside heavenly glory to become men. We were not with God, and were God, creating all things as Jesus was and did. Your comparison is, therefore, profoundly inappropriate.

I was baptized into Christ. (Rom 6:3)
I am, by the grace of God, "in Christ".
Like Paul wrote in Gal 2:20..."I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."
"We" are one.

 

[Tenchi]

Is the finger one with the hand?
Is the ear one with the head?
I am surprised you can't understand.

Well, you're making an erroneous parallel here. A finger and a hand share an essential essence, or nature, with each other: together they constitute the hand, sharing the same genetics, tissues, fluids and biochemistry. They are much more one than you are with God, for the reasons I've already pointed out. You are far more unlike God than like Him, actually. You aren't infinite, without beginning; you aren't all-knowing; you aren't all-powerful; you aren't everywhere present; you did not participate in Creation; you did not die for the sins of all mankind, and so on. And though the Holy Spirit resides in you, you remain completely unable to be or do any of these things I've just listed that are fundamental to God's nature. Unlike an ear and the head to which it is attached, you are merely occupied by the Spirit of God (1 Corinthians 6:19-20), like the bottle filled with ketchup.

I am just as surprised by how little you seem to understand this very obvious reality as you claim to be surprised by me.

 

[Hopeful]

Well, you're making an erroneous parallel here. A finger and a hand share an essential essence, or nature, with each other: together they constitute the hand, sharing the same genetics, tissues, fluids and biochemistry.

Hardly erroneous.
He shares m hands and fingers, and I share His nature.
Together we make up the same "body".
I am a member of the body of Christ.
Aren't you?

They are much more one than you are with God, for the reasons I've already pointed out. You are far more unlike God than like Him, actually. You aren't infinite, without beginning; you aren't all-knowing; you aren't all-powerful; you aren't everywhere present; you did not participate in Creation; you did not die for the sins of all mankind, and so on. And though the Holy Spirit resides in you, you remain completely unable to be or do any of these things I've just listed that are fundamental to God's nature. Unlike an ear and the head to which it is attached, you are merely occupied by the Spirit of God (1 Corinthians 6:19-20), like the bottle filled with ketchup.

Sorry you can't comprehend the union Christians share with Christ.

I am just as surprised by how little you seem to understand this very obvious reality as you claim to be surprised by me.

Jesus prayed...

1. John 17:11
   "And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are"
2. "And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:" (John 17:22)
3. Paul wrote..."So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another." (Rom 12:5)
4. And..."But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." (1 Cor 8:6)
5. And..."For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread." (1 Cor 10:17)
6. And..."For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." (1 Cor 12:13)
7. And..."Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another." (Eph 4:5)

Why don't you think you are one with Christ?

 

[Tenchi]

Hardly erroneous.
He shares m hands and fingers, and I share His nature.
Together we make up the same "body".
I am a member of the body of Christ.
Aren't you?

??? As all humans are, you're created in the "imago dei," the image of God. By this is meant that you share some rudimentary features of God's nature: self-awareness, a moral sense, being able to appreciate beauty, and justice, and humor, capable of anticipating future events and preparing for them, and so on. But no right-thinking man considers himself to be God, sharing in all of His divine attributes and thus truly one with Him. This is not just blasphemous thinking, it's blatantly ridiculous in its glaring falsity.

Are you literally inside of Christ's body, wearing him like a glove, or sock? The resurrected and glorified Jesus is described in Revelation 1:13-16. When folks see Hopeful, do they see the figure of man dressed in a long, white gown, eyes blazing like fire, face shining like the sun, with feet of polished brass, speaking with a voice of many waters? Of course not. When Romans 13:14 says to "put on Christ," it is not speaking literally. When we are told in God's word, we are "in Christ" (Ephesians 1:1-7; 1 Corinthians 1:30; Philippians 3:8-9, etc.) it is meant that we have been made members of a spiritual body that is representative of Christ, called the Church, not that we are actually inside of Christ's body carried about like a baby in a mother's womb. Obviously.

So, then, what does it mean to be a member of the "body" of Christ? The apostle Paul described very well what it means:

Ephesians 4:4-17 (NASB)
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.
7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift.
8 Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN."
9 (Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)
11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;

Hang on. If by being "in Christ" a born-again believer has been made one with him, sharing his divine nature, what need is there for his body to be built up? Is Christ not perfect? Yes, he is. But if we share his divine nature, and are therefore also perfect, what need have we, his body, to be built up? Such a need indicates incompleteness or weakness rather than perfection.

13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

Eh? How can a person "in Christ," who is therefore perfect, attain to anything, let alone maturity or a greater fullness of Christ? Both of these things indicate room for improvement which perfection precludes.

14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;
15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,

What? One who is in Christ will grow up into him? And they can be like children, tossed about by waves and winds of doctrines, tricked by deceitful men? This doesn't like those in the body of Christ are perfect at all...

16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.
17 So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind,

Growth of the body? But the body is made up of perfect people, according to Hopeful. The body of Christ is a bunch of folks who are, by being "in Christ," imbued with his perfection and so have no need for growth, nor are susceptible to walking in a futile way. Clearly, Paul ought to have consulted Hopeful before he wrote what he did above.

Sorry you can't comprehend the union Christians share with Christ.

Deflection.

Jesus prayed...

1. John 17:11
   "And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are"

Jesus is not saying here that his disciples will be one with himself and the Father, sharing fully their divine nature, but that would be like himself and the Father in their oneness with each other. And the fact that Jesus was speaking to the Father illustrates that the "oneness" of Christ with the Father did not entail identicality, or a literal, physical union, like a finger to a hand.

1. "And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:" (John 17:22)

Here, Jesus is saying that he intends his disciples to be intimately united to each other in relational fellowship - just as he is to the Father - not to himself.

1. Paul wrote..."So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another." (Rom 12:5)

And so? We are clearly not literally "one body," but are related spiritually, members of a community of Christ's ambassadors, representing him to the World.

1. And..."But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." (1 Cor 8:6)
2. And..."For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread." (1 Cor 10:17)
3. And..."For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." (1 Cor 12:13)
4. And..."Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another." (Eph 4:5)

Why don't you think you are one with Christ?

See above.

 

[Tenchi]

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

When a Christian speaks in tongues the Holy Spirit is the one talking , utterance . The words that proceed from my mouth are not words I am thinking to say at all . The Holy Spirit makes use of my tongue and my speech faculties . It is a supernatural event inside of me . The words that come out are from the Holy Spirit . The Holy Spirit speaking through me said Allah and Eli . Do you grasp any at all what I am saying ?

When, in Acts 2, the "Spirit gave them utterance" it wasn't in the puppet-like way you are describing; he simply made the disciples able to "speak with (in) other (foreign/unknown) tongues (languages)." Nothing in the account in Acts 2 suggests that the disciples were like human radios, tuned to station Holy Spirit, out of whom the voice of God sounded. And there is no instance in all of the Bible (that I'm aware of) where what you've described of your own experience occurred.

By the power of the Holy Spirit . Have you ever had the Holy Spirit communicate to you in some form or fashion ?

He has interacted with me as Scripture indicates he will, yes. He's convicted me of sin, brought Scripture to my remembrance, strengthened me in times of trial and temptation, taught me God's truth and transformed who I am, comforted me, and so on. Has the Holy Spirit acted upon me in the ways you've described? No, never.

Anyway, how do you discern the power of the Holy Spirit from a demonic counterfeit? As I've pointed out, much of hyper-charismaticism is exactly like pagan, mystic, religious practices of the East.

 

[hawkman]

When, in Acts 2, the "Spirit gave them utterance" it wasn't in the puppet-like way you are describing; he simply made the disciples able to "speak with (in) other (foreign/unknown) tongues (languages)." Nothing in the account in Acts 2 suggests that the disciples were like human radios, tuned to station Holy Spirit, out of whom the voice of God sounded. And there is no instance in all of the Bible (that I'm aware of) where what you've described of your own experience occurred.

Praise God ! I had much rather be a puppet for God anytime than be an agent for Satan or a member of the frozen chosen ! I wonder did Samson feel like a puppet for God when God returned Samson's strength to him and Samson brought the pagan temple down ? Did Peter feel like a puppet for God when he walked on the water toward Jesus ?
Do you think Moses felt like a puppet for God when he had to hold his arms up for the battle to be won ?

So Tenchi . Is being a puppet for God a bad thing ? God knows he can use me however He sees fit at anytime ! And He does.

He has interacted with me as Scripture indicates he will, yes. He's convicted me of sin, brought Scripture to my remembrance, strengthened me in times of trial and temptation, taught me God's truth and transformed who I am, comforted me, and so on. Has the Holy Spirit acted upon me in the ways you've described? No, never.

The part in bold , Are those supernatural events taking place inside of you ?

Anyway, how do you discern the power of the Holy Spirit from a demonic counterfeit?

Is my gift of tongues counterfeit ? I will tell you how I got the Gift of Tongues. I received the Gift of Tongues at my salvation, before I left the spot at the front of the church where I received my salvation . When I stood up there at the altar and words were wanting to come out of my mouth that were NOT my words . I was shocked and thought what is happening to me and I did not let The Holy Spirit have the utterance . Over the next few weeks I came to understand that The Holy Spirit was wanting to speak through me when I was at the altar . At a later church service anyone with a need went to the altar for prayer and I went and was prayed for and began speaking in tongues . No training , no teaching it just flowed . Now have I ever gave a message out in tongues in a church service , no I have not . When I am alone in prayer is when I will pray in tongues . Sometimes a melody come with the words and I sing my prayer , this is not very often but so great when it does happen .

As I've pointed out, much of hyper-charismaticism is exactly like pagan, mystic, religious practices of the East.

Let me point out I am not hyper-charismatic . I am a Christian who believes that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are still in operation today .

 

[Tenchi]

Experiencing God continued:

4.) Comfort in times of trouble. (2 Corinthians 1:3-5)

You've heard, I'm sure, of "comfort food," and the comforting refuge of a nice, warm blanket and a cup of cocoa (with marshmallows), and the comfort of friends and family, even, perhaps, the comfort people find in their pets. Are these avenues of comfort all of a kind with the comfort that God imparts to His children? Is there anything that marks out God's comfort such that we can tell its His comfort and not just the "warm fuzzies" we get from safe, pleasant circumstances, or from the hugs and encouragement of loved ones?

2 Corinthians 1:3-10 (NASB)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,
4 who comforts us in all our affliction so that we will be able to comfort those who are in any affliction with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.

Commonly, people are comforted by the cessation of trouble, by the resolution of circumstances that have caused suffering. God, however, offers us comfort in the midst of trouble; He doesn't comfort us, necessarily, by delivering us from trouble. How does He do this, exactly? Paul went on to explain:

5 For just as the sufferings of Christ are ours in abundance, so also our comfort is abundant through Christ.

Though Paul's suffering was comparatively severe, through Christ he was comforted abundantly by God. How so? Well, Christ dwells in every born-again believer in the Person of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9), who is called The Comforter, or Paraklete (in the Greek, parakletos), in John 14:16 and John 16:7. Some English translations of the Bible render "parakletos" as "Helper" rather than "Comforter" but "parakletos" does, nonetheless, refer to one who comforts and/or is an advocate, or intercessor, for another. In what way does the Holy Spirit himself abundantly comfort the child of God?

- By bearing witness with our spirit that we are true children of God. (Romans 8:14-16) The Holy Spirit dwells in us as the "earnest," or "pledge" of God (2 Corinthians 1:22; 2 Corinthians 5:5), signaling to us by his inner witness to our spirit that we are God's and headed toward an eternal, joyous future with Himself. This "witness" is not, though, a mere feeling, a sense, or strong inward impression, but the confidence we obtain that we are God's as we experience the work of the Spirit upon us in his conviction, strengthening, teaching, comforting and transformation of us. This confidence stabilizes and comforts the believer in the midst of trouble, encouraging them to remember that there are far better things yet to come and that they don't traverse seasons of suffering alone, pointlessly, in an uncaring universe.

- The Holy Spirit will work all of our suffering to the eternal, supreme good of becoming more like Christ - if we'll let him. (Romans 8:28-29) Our pain and sorrow does not ever need to be confusing, without apparent purpose, just another of God's mysterious abuses of His children they must assume brings about some good that is, and may always remain, utterly obscure to them. Instead, in the midst of any and all trouble, the believer can find at least this one great purpose: Becoming more like Jesus. (2 Corinthians 4:7-11) In this there is much comfort, for it makes all suffering an invaluable, divine tool of refinement, strengthening and transformation, preparing the believer for their eternal future with their holy Maker and deepening their present fellowship with him.

- As the born-again believer is transformed by the Holy Spirit in the midst of trouble, they are inevitably "filled up" with him, with all of the excellent things that he is: joy, peace, love, gentleness, patience, faithfulness, etc. (Galatians 5:22-23; Ephesians 5:9; Philippians 2:13; 2 Corinthians 3:18) As this happens, they obtain a supernatural disposition, the character of Christ, that endures no matter the circumstances, making them stable and even joyful in the middle of suffering and sorrow.

6 But if we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation; or if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which is effective in the patient enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer;
7 and our hope for you is firmly grounded, knowing that as you are sharers of our sufferings, so also you are sharers of our comfort.

In part, God communicates Himself, His goodness and love for us, through the Body of Believers. As we serve one another in love, faithfully and sacrificially caring for one another, the comfort of God is communicated. How vital it is, then, for believers to remain united to the Body, loving and cherishing fellow believers (no matter their rough, abrasive bits), for God's sake.

8 For we do not want you to be unaware, brethren, of our affliction which came to us in Asia, that we were burdened excessively, beyond our strength, so that we despaired even of life;
9 indeed, we had the sentence of death within ourselves so that we would not trust in ourselves, but in God who raises the dead;
10 who delivered us from so great a peril of death, and will deliver us, He on whom we have set our hope. And He will yet deliver us,

Here, Paul focuses upon the Great Hope of the believer to which they can cling in the terrible storms of life and find stability and comfort: We were made, not for time, but for eternity. Slowly expiring from cancer, or about to be beaten to death by angry Muslims, or grieving the death of a loved one, or kneeling among the shattered pieces of one's dreams, a believer can always look up in hope that the suffering will not last, that there is an eternity of joy, and peace, and love soon to come.

Philippians 3:20-21 (NASB)
20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;
21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

John 14:1-3 (NASB)
1 "Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me.
2 "In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
3 "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

God's comfort is very different than, very distinct from, the comfort of the World, from the comfort, in-and-of-ourselves, that we might offer one another. God is Himself our "exceeding great reward," our eternal Hope, our present and future Joy and Rest. And no trouble, or suffering, or sorrow can alter these facts. In the Person of the Holy Spirit, God has placed Himself as close as He can be to us, abiding with us whatever we endure (Hebrews 13:5; Romans 8:38-39), directing our lives toward the unending delight of eternity with Him. And so, we are abundantly comforted in the midst of affliction, not by "warm fuzzies," or the temporary pleasure of a comfortable circumstance, but by the awesome, unchanging, eternal presence of our Heavenly Father who waits for us at the end of our troublesome earthly lives to usher us into the Real Life of unending joy and peace for which He made us.

 

[Tenchi]

Praise God ! I had much rather be a puppet for God anytime than be an agent for Satan or a member of the frozen chosen !

I can only tell you what God's word says and what my experience has been. What you choose to adopt as an experience of God is entirely up to you. I want to be God's servant, His child, His vessel, a branch in the Vine that He is, just as His word tells me He wants me to be. (Romans 6:13-22; Romans 8:9-16; 2 Timothy 2:21; John 15:4-5) The Bible never describes God as a Puppeteer nor you and I as His puppets, however.

The only examples in the Bible of people being controlled utterly, possessed by a spiritual power and compelled to action, are those taken over by demons. Never in the record of Scripture does God ever do this to His creatures.

I wonder did Samson feel like a puppet for God when God returned Samson's strength to him and Samson brought the pagan temple down ?

The account does not say that he did. And in every other instance when the Spirit came upon Samson, he acted as he saw fit, killing Philistines or lions, or catching foxes and tying torches to their tails, or ripping off town gates, and so on. Nothing in how Samson acted on these occasions hints in the slightest that he was entirely possessed by the Spirit, made to do what he did in a puppet-like fashion.

I'm not pointing this out to get up your nose, but to be carefully biblical.

Did Peter feel like a puppet for God when he walked on the water toward Jesus ?

No, of course not. Before he ever set foot on the waves of Galilee, he asked Jesus if he could walk out to him. Only once Jesus had said to do so, did Peter get out of the boat and walk to him on the tossing water of the sea. That Peter was still himself, freely acting as he did, is evident in how soon he was distracted from Jesus and began to sink. No puppet-like compulsion was moving him.

Do you think Moses felt like a puppet for God when he had to hold his arms up for the battle to be won ?

No. In fact, he had to have the aid of others in order to do so for the duration of the battle. A strange thing, if the Holy Spirit, who had the power to keep Moses' arms lifted for months, or years, if that was what had been necessary, was forcing him to keep his arms up. There was no Spirit-compulsion/possession that was evident in the event.

So @Tenchi . Is being a puppet for God a bad thing ? God knows he can use me however He sees fit at anytime ! And He does.

Sure, God can, and does, use those of His children who are willing to be used by Him. But He doesn't compel His children to action, over-riding them after the manner of the demonic, using them like puppets. Instead, God treats His children like children, not prisoners forced to certain behaviors, waiting on them to freely, in love, serve His will. This is what God's words says and what my experience has been.

The part in bold , Are those supernatural events taking place inside of you ?

Certainly. Just as God's word promises will happen in all those in whom the Holy Spirit dwells. It's what you were asking about, wasn't it?

Is my gift of tongues counterfeit ?

I don't know. Do you? How do you (or any other believer) clearly discern if, in fact, you're being deceived by a demonic counterfeit?

I will tell you how I got the Gift of Tongues. I received the Gift of Tongues at my salvation, before I left the spot at the front of the church where I received my salvation . When I stood up there at the altar and words were wanting to come out of my mouth that were NOT my words . I was shocked and thought what is happening to me and I did not let The Holy Spirit have the utterance .

Okay. So, you weren't possessed by the Spirit and compelled by him to speak in tongues? That's more in keeping with God's word. It would be a strange sort of gift that you were forced to exercise. I wonder: Were you among folk who believed and taught that tongues-speaking was common to spiritual regeneration? Was there any expectation among those in the Christian community of which you were a part who were encouraging you to think about and/or expect at some point an overt, external supernatural event? Was your "pump" primed for such a thing to occur?

My sister is deep into hyper-charismaticism. But she must often travel considerable distances to participate in the sensual, chaotic events of her fellow hyper-charismatics. Only when they are all together in a group do they have all the wild, sensational, exciting experiences of God my sister is constantly pursuing. Funny, that. And not in the "Ha, ha, ha" way.

Anyway, as I've pointed out, correlation does not necessarily equal causation.

Over the next few weeks I came to understand that The Holy Spirit was wanting to speak through me when I was at the altar .

Oh? Who told you this? From where in God's word did they do so?

At a later church service anyone with a need went to the altar for prayer and I went and was prayed for and began speaking in tongues . No training , no teaching it just flowed .

Okay. But you haven't yet explained by what objective, authoritative means you were able to assess the divine origin of these experiences. Many things happen in church that are not of God, as are many things that have been prayed. It is in the precincts of the Church that the devil works hardest to obscure, twist and counterfeit the things of God.

When I am alone in prayer is when I will pray in tongues . Sometimes a melody come with the words and I sing my prayer , this is not very often but so great when it does happen .

Okay. This sounds lovely. But, again, by what criteria do you judge these times to be of God? I know of many people who have similar lovely experiences doing Yoga, or practicing eastern meditative rituals, or just climbing to a mountaintop and being blown away by the majesty of the vista before them. I'm not saying your experiences aren't genuine moments with God; I'm just wanting a sound, biblical basis for discerning that they are.

Let me point out I am not hyper-charismatic . I am a Christian who believes that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are still in operation today .

Yes, I've understood this. Nothing you've described suggests to me you're of a kind with my sister. I suspect we have far more in common in our understanding of the faith than not.

 

[Hopeful]

??? As all humans are, you're created in the "imago dei," the image of God. By this is meant that you share some rudimentary features of God's nature: self-awareness, a moral sense, being able to appreciate beauty, and justice, and humor, capable of anticipating future events and preparing for them, and so on. But no right-thinking man considers himself to be God, sharing in all of His divine attributes and thus truly one with Him. This is not just blasphemous thinking, it's blatantly ridiculous in its glaring falsity.
Are you literally inside of Christ's body, wearing him like a glove, or sock? The resurrected and glorified Jesus is described in Revelation 1:13-16. When folks see Hopeful, do they see the figure of man dressed in a long, white gown, eyes blazing like fire, face shining like the sun, with feet of polished brass, speaking with a voice of many waters? Of course not. When Romans 13:14 says to "put on Christ," it is not speaking literally. When we are told in God's word, we are "in Christ" (Ephesians 1:1-7; 1 Corinthians 1:30; Philippians 3:8-9, etc.) it is meant that we have been made members of a spiritual body that is representative of Christ, called the Church, not that we are actually inside of Christ's body carried about like a baby in a mother's womb. Obviously.
So, then, what does it mean to be a member of the "body" of Christ? The apostle Paul described very well what it means:
Ephesians 4:4-17 (NASB)
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.
7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift.
8 Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN."
9 (Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)
11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;
Hang on. If by being "in Christ" a born-again believer has been made one with him, sharing his divine nature, what need is there for his body to be built up? Is Christ not perfect? Yes, he is. But if we share his divine nature, and are therefore also perfect, what need have we, his body, to be built up? Such a need indicates incompleteness or weakness rather than perfection.
13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
Eh? How can a person "in Christ," who is therefore perfect, attain to anything, let alone maturity or a greater fullness of Christ? Both of these things indicate room for improvement which perfection precludes.
14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;
15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,
What? One who is in Christ will grow up into him? And they can be like children, tossed about by waves and winds of doctrines, tricked by deceitful men? This doesn't like those in the body of Christ are perfect at all...
16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.
17 So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind,
Growth of the body? But the body is made up of perfect people, according to Hopeful. The body of Christ is a bunch of folks who are, by being "in Christ," imbued with his perfection and so have no need for growth, nor are susceptible to walking in a futile way. Clearly, Paul ought to have consulted Hopeful before he wrote what he did above.
Deflection.
Jesus is not saying here that his disciples will be one with himself and the Father, sharing fully their divine nature, but that would be like himself and the Father in their oneness with each other. And the fact that Jesus was speaking to the Father illustrates that the "oneness" of Christ with the Father did not entail identicality, or a literal, physical union, like a finger to a hand.
Here, Jesus is saying that he intends his disciples to be intimately united to each other in relational fellowship - just as he is to the Father - not to himself.
And so? We are clearly not literally "one body," but are related spiritually, members of a community of Christ's ambassadors, representing him to the World.
See above.

Jesus prayed we could be one, in John 17:11,22: and I am testimony that God answered Jesus' prayer in the affirmative.

 

[Tenchi]

Jesus prayed we could be one, in John 17:11,22: and I am testimony that God answered Jesus' prayer in the affirmative.

Jesus prayed that his disciples would be one with each other, united together in fellowship, as Jesus was with his Heavenly Father. Jesus was NOT praying that his disciples would be one with himself in the way he was with the Father. Such a thing would be impossible, since no creature can ever share fully in the nature of their Creator. There are. after all, only three Persons in the Trinity and no more.

You are, if you've trusted in Christ as your Savior and Lord, united with Christ spiritually, indwelt by the Holy Spirit and in him given new, spiritual life; but you are not, therefore, God, united to Him as such, like a finger is united to a hand. Instead, you are merely a vessel, a container, a temple, a dwelling-place of the Holy Spirit; you are not become God. (2 Timothy 2:21; 1 Corinthians 6:19-20). This is why, in the Bible, you are called God's servant, His child, His sheep, His ambassador, but never His equal, co-divine with the Godhead.

 

[hawkman]

I can only tell you what God's word says and what my experience has been.

Me too .

What you choose to adopt as an experience of God is entirely up to you.

I am not sure what you are saying , my experience of God comes from God .

I want to be God's servant, His child, His vessel, a branch in the Vine that He is, just as His word tells me He wants me to be.

Amen ! I enjoy what you write here on the forum brother .

Bible never describes God as a Puppeteer nor you and I as His puppets, however.

You said puppet first . If you think having the Holy Spirit speak through me as I have described is being a "puppet" then so be it .

The only examples in the Bible of people being controlled utterly, possessed by a spiritual power and compelled to action, are those taken over by demons. Never in the record of Scripture does God ever do this to His creatures.

I agree .

No, of course not. Before he ever set foot on the waves of Galilee, he asked Jesus if he could walk out to him. Only once Jesus had said to do so, did Peter get out of the boat and walk to him on the tossing water of the sea. That Peter was still himself, freely acting as he did, is evident in how soon he was distracted from Jesus and began to sink. No puppet-like compulsion was moving him.

Exactly . The power of God enabled Peter to walk on the water .

No. In fact, he had to have the aid of others in order to do so for the duration of the battle. A strange thing, if the Holy Spirit, who had the power to keep Moses' arms lifted for months, or years, if that was what had been necessary, was forcing him to keep his arms up. There was no Spirit-compulsion/possession that was evident in the event.

There must have been a lesson for Moses in what was going on . Moses had his moments as we all do .

Sure, God can, and does, use those of His children who are willing to be used by Him.

Amen !

But He doesn't compel His children to action, over-riding them after the manner of the demonic, using them like puppets. Instead, God treats His children like children, not prisoners forced to certain behaviors, waiting on them to freely, in love, serve His will. This is what God's words says and what my experience has been.

The Holy Spirit does not force me to speak in tongues but He does control my tongue and speech faculties when I do speak in tongues .

Certainly. Just as God's word promises will happen in all those in whom the Holy Spirit dwells. It's what you were asking about, wasn't it?

Yes .

I don't know. Do you? How do you (or any other believer) clearly discern if, in fact, you're being deceived by a demonic counterfeit?

Discernment is a Gift of The Holy Spirit , do you have that gift ? I do . So you discern the demonic with God's scripture and by the Holy Spirit .

Okay. So, you weren't possessed by the Spirit and compelled by him to speak in tongues? That's more in keeping with God's word. It would be a strange sort of gift that you were forced to exercise.

Correct !

I wonder: Were you among folk who believed and taught that tongues-speaking was common to spiritual regeneration?

No , but yes they do believe in the Gifts of the Holy Spirit .

Was there any expectation among those in the Christian community of which you were a part who were encouraging you to think about and/or expect at some point an overt, external supernatural event?

No , not at all .

Was your "pump" primed for such a thing to occur?

No not in any way . I did not understand what was going on with me when the Holy Spirit tried to take the utterance when I was at the church alter . Background on me , I was @ 26 when I became a Christian . Before I became a Christian I was a Rock & Roll musician for @ 7 years living the rock&roll lifestyle . Sinning , oh yeah .

My sister is deep into hyper-charismaticism. But she must often travel considerable distances to participate in the sensual, chaotic events of her fellow hyper-charismatics. Only when they are all together in a group does they have all the wild, sensational, exciting experiences of God my sister is constantly pursuing. Funny, that. And not in the "Ha, ha, ha" way.

Wow , brother . Prayers for your sister . I know that has to hurt .

Oh? Who told you this? From where in God's word did they do so?

Like I said I did not understand at first what was going on with me . But now being born again I have the Holy Spirit to help me understand .
Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Okay. But you haven't yet explained by what objective, authoritative means you were able to assess the divine origin of these experiences. Many things happen in church that are not of God, as are many things that have been prayed. It is in the precincts of the Church that the devil works hardest to obscure, twist and counterfeit the things of God.

I once had a dream , it was a narrated dream (never had one like that) and in fact I argued with the narrator in the dream that what was represented in the dream was false . But the narrator insisted so I just said "oh well this is just a dream " little did I know . @ 6 months later I had to live out this dream in real life , shocked I was . God had sent me a dream of my future but I did not recognize it as such . Experiences , I am having them . Ever had a vision ?

Okay. This sounds lovely. But, again, by what criteria do you judge these times to be of God?

Your prayer time with God is much different than mine . Discernment .

I know of many people who have similar lovely experiences doing Yoga, or practicing eastern meditative rituals, or just climbing to a mountaintop and being blown away by the majesty of the vista before them. I'm not saying your experiences aren't genuine moments with God; I'm just wanting a sound, biblical basis for discerning that they are.

I have found discerning on a forum like this to be a hard task at times . So you must have the gift of Discernment ?

Yes, I've understood this.

Good.

Nothing you've described suggests to me you're of a kind with my sister.

What you said of your sister sounds more like a cult she is involved with instead of Christianity .

I suspect we have far more in common in our understanding of the faith than not.

Yes we do have a lot in common in our understanding .

 

[hawkman]

Some English translations of the Bible render "parakletos" as "Helper" rather than "Comforter" but "parakletos" does, nonetheless, refer to one who comforts and/or is an advocate, or intercessor, for another. In what way does the Holy Spirit himself abundantly comfort the child of God?

The Comforter , The Holy Spirit , yes indeed .
About six years ago on another Christian forum I got into a few weeks of back-and-forth discussion about something called "The Mandela Effect" . The premise was that the KJV Bible had been supernaturally altered and words had been changed while it was sitting on your bookshelf ! For the first 15 minutes after I understood what was being propagated I was very perplexed . After some thought and study I said "No way is that happening !" .

One poster was dead set that this verse as you see it here in proper form had been altered !
Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

What the verse should say is this according to Mandela effect people .
The lion also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the wolf and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

Some of the other posters said lots of verses had been altered ! But the one poster just said the one verse in Isaiah had been altered and that was his linchpin, he was trying to lead others to believe the lie through pm's .

After research and I am sure divine help I found another verse that backed up the proper Isaiah11:6, it was this verse.
Isaiah 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

This ended the mandela effect crusade on that Christian forum . The one poster said some odd things like " boredom in heaven was a possibility ":shock .

The night the mandela was over on the Christian forum I did my usual prayer routine where I go outside on my front patio and pray .
I go out in almost total darkness no close neighbors or lights, not much star light or moon light that night as I went out .
I had been sitting down outside for about a minute when right over my shoulder I heard this vicious , wet snarl unlike any animal I had ever heard and it did not sound human . Now at this point one would think FEAR would have struck me but this is what happened either at the same time or right before the Comforter said this to me "That's Demonic" .
I had absolutely no signs of fright either , hair standing up on the neck or goose bumps . The Comforter indeed .

 

[Tenchi]

I am not sure what you are saying , my experience of God comes from God .

I understand that this is what you believe. I'm not myself yet convinced that your experience is from God. When I hold what you've described up to the record of the Bible, I don't see any precedent for, or positive teaching on, it. Again, this doesn't mean what happened wasn't God, only that, so far, I have nothing but your say-so that it was of Him. For me, that's just not enough to go on. The clear support of God's word is vital for anything we want to say is of Him.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (NASB)
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

Amen ! I enjoy what you write here on the forum brother .

Well, thank you. I'm glad you do!

You said puppet first . If you think having the Holy Spirit speak through me as I have described is being a "puppet" then so be it .

It's how your description of your tongues experience sounded to me. I've exaggerated what you described, it seems.

The Holy Spirit does not force me to speak in tongues but He does control my tongue and speech faculties when I do speak in tongues .

Can you explain to me the difference, here? How is "control my tongue and speech faculties" distinct from forcing you to speak? At first glance, what the Spirit has done to you sounds, at least, compulsive to me.

Discernment is a Gift of The Holy Spirit , do you have that gift ? I do . So you discern the demonic with God's scripture and by the Holy Spirit .

About itself, God's word says it is a "lamp unto my feet and light unto my path." (Psalms 119:105) By way of Scripture, the simple are made wise, they gain understanding, and are able to discern right from wrong, truth from falsehood, and foolishness from wisdom (Psalm 19:7-11; Psalm 119:97-104; Psalm 119:130, etc.). And as the passage quoted above that Paul wrote to Timothy indicates, all that I require to live godly in Christ Jesus, which would necessarily entail discernment, I obtain from God's word. The Holy Spirit illuminates my mind and heart to God's truth, of course, but it is ultimately through an understanding of that Truth that I am better able to discern things spiritually.

As well, anyone claiming special spiritual "discernment" must be held to some evaluating standard, some objective criteria by which their "discernment" can be shown to be correct or in error. If there is no such objective standard, then anyone can claim "discernment" about anything, it seems to me, and never worry about the truth or falsity, the accuracy, or the origin, of their "discernment."

What's worse, if decisions are made on the basis of such unevaluated "discernment" and it is false, the results can be catastrophic. Too often, though, "discernment" is held to be of God if the "discernment" proves out in some vague way, like horoscopes, or palm readings, may do. This is to judge the matter after the fact, however, to have assumed godly discernment at the beginning and then claim it actually was if the results of that "discernment" seem to have had an effect that can be said to be of God in some way. Is this how God operates in Scripture, though? Does He encourage us to act on assumptions, to judge the true nature of something by some mere internal sense, some subjective confidence, that is presumed to be accurate? No. If God calls His own to step out in faith, it is always from a foundation of objective fact and clear divine leading. Consider Gideon, or Moses, or Noah, or Abraham, or Paul.

Some Christians try to get around the problem of subjective discernment by rather circular logic: They just grant without proof (aka - assume) that their subjective feelings/suspicions about something is discernment given by the Spirit. As a result, since their discernment must be of the Spirit, it cannot be questioned. When questioned, they respond: "Well, if you had Spirit-discernment, too, you'd agree that I'm discerning by the power of the Spirit." This is a great example of the logical fallacy philosophers call "Begging the Question" (aka - circular reasoning).

It's in order to avoid this situation that I am pressing you for something more than "because I say so" or "well it all worked out in a surprising way, so it has to be of God." Safeguarding real spiritual discernment from abuse requires an objective basis for evaluation.

No not in any way . I did not understand what was going on with me when the Holy Spirit tried to take the utterance when I was at the church alter . Background on me , I was @ 26 when I became a Christian . Before I became a Christian I was a Rock & Roll musician for @ 7 years living the rock&roll lifestyle . Sinning , oh yeah .

I used to be a martial arts instructor (for just shy of thirty years) and many of my students/friends were rock musicians (drummers, especially). I have some idea of what their lives were like since they'd often try to tell me about their...exploits. Woah.

Wow , brother . Prayers for your sister . I know that has to hurt .

Thanks. Her beliefs are taking a terrible toll both on her and her family. Her children are all of them walking far from God, profoundly turned-off of the Christian faith by the...kookiness and irrationality of their mother's "spirituality." They love their Mom dearly but, because of her hyper-charismaticism, think Christianity is bizarre and insane (as they should).

Like I said I did not understand at first what was going on with me . But now being born again I have the Holy Spirit to help me understand .
Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

You're aware that there were other instances of conversion in Acts unmarked by tongues, too? The Philippian jailer in Acts 16, the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8:26-39, the three thousand in Acts 2, the crippled man in Acts 3:1-8, the centurion, Crispus, and many Corinthians in Acts 18:8, and so on. I'm not suggesting you didn't speak in tongues when you were saved, only pointing out that such an experience does not always accompany conversion.

I once had a dream , it was a narrated dream (never had one like that) and in fact I argued with the narrator in the dream that what was represented in the dream was false . But the narrator insisted so I just said "oh well this is just a dream " little did I know . @ 6 months later I had to live out this dream in real life , shocked I was . God had sent me a dream of my future but I did not recognize it as such . Experiences , I am having them . Ever had a vision ?

To what end did God do this, exactly? What divine purpose was served by your narrated dream?

I've never had a vision. And know of no believer, personally, who has. Certainly, in the span of history covered by the Bible (roughly, some 4000 years), they were exceedingly rare. In light of this, I am very...skeptical of the proliferation of "visions" in our modern era. Too often, it seems one has only to assert that they've had a vision from God to establish that one actually has had such a vision. Dangerous stuff, spiritually. Very dangerous.

Your prayer time with God is much different than mine . Discernment .

I often pray God's word back to Him. I pray for His will to be done in my life and in the lives of others. I give Him thanks and praise in prayer. When He gives me discernment, it is always through the Light and Truth of His word.

I have found discerning on a forum like this to be a hard task at times . So you must have the gift of Discernment ?

How does one walk with God without spiritual discernment? Is the Spirit's illumination of the Truth of God to you and I not giving light, that is, discernment, to us? It seems so to me...

What you said of your sister sounds more like a cult she is involved with instead of Christianity .

Yes, I've often thought this.

Yes we do have a lot in common in our understanding .

 

[Tenchi]

I had been sitting down outside for about a minute when right over my shoulder I heard this vicious , wet snarl unlike any animal I had ever heard and it did not sound human . Now at this point one would think FEAR would have struck me but this is what happened either at the same time or right before the Comforter said this to me "That's Demonic" .
I had absolutely no signs of fright either , hair standing up on the neck or goose bumps . The Comforter indeed .

Amen. "Greater is He who is in you than he that is in the world."

 

[hawkman]

I understand that this is what you believe. I'm not myself yet convinced that your experience is from God. When I hold what you've described up to the record of the Bible, I don't see any precedent for, or positive teaching on, it. Again, this doesn't mean what happened wasn't God, only that, so far, I have nothing but your say-so that it was of Him. For me, that's just not enough to go on. The clear support of God's word is vital for anything we want to say is of Him.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (NASB)
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

The being " put under " I did not give you all the info and this is why you can not say yeah or nay . You are giving me the benefit of a doubt , thanks . It kind of like I read you a paragraph out of a novel 300 pages in and expect you to make heads or tails out of it .

It's how your description of your tongues experience sounded to me. I've exaggerated what you described, it seems.

That's ok .

Can you explain to me the difference, here? How is "control my tongue and speech faculties" distinct from forcing you to speak? At first glance, what the Spirit has done to you sounds, at least, compulsive to me.

When I am praying as usual it is a smooth transition to praying in tongues , I just let the Holy Spirit take the utterance . Not compulsive at least when it is prayer tongues . It is different if you are giving a message by the power of the Holy Spirit to a group of people , it is delivered with more urgency and volume .

 

[hawkman]

About itself, God's word says it is a "lamp unto my feet and light unto my path." (Psalms 119:105) By way of Scripture, the simple are made wise, they gain understanding, and are able to discern right from wrong, truth from falsehood, and foolishness from wisdom (Psalm 19:7-11; Psalm 119:97-104; Psalm 119:130, etc.). And as the passage quoted above that Paul wrote to Timothy indicates, all that I require to live godly in Christ Jesus, which would necessarily entail discernment, I obtain from God's word. The Holy Spirit illuminates my mind and heart to God's truth, of course, but it is ultimately through an understanding of that Truth that I am better able to discern things spiritually.

As well, anyone claiming special spiritual "discernment" must be held to some evaluating standard, some objective criteria by which their "discernment" can be shown to be correct or in error. If there is no such objective standard, then anyone can claim "discernment" about anything, it seems to me, and never worry about the truth or falsity, the accuracy, or the origin, of their "discernment."

What's worse, if decisions are made on the basis of such unevaluated "discernment" and it is false, the results can be catastrophic. Too often, though, "discernment" is held to be of God if the "discernment" proves out in some vague way, like horoscopes, or palm readings, may do. This is to judge the matter after the fact, however, to have assumed godly discernment at the beginning and then claim it actually was if the results of that "discernment" seem to have had an effect that can be said to be of God in some way. Is this how God operates in Scripture, though? Does He encourage us to act on assumptions, to judge the true nature of something by some mere internal sense, some subjective confidence, that is presumed to be accurate? No. If God calls His own to step out in faith, it is always from a foundation of objective fact and clear divine leading. Consider Gideon, or Moses, or Noah, or Abraham, or Paul.

Some Christians try to get around the problem of subjective discernment by rather circular logic: They just grant without proof (aka - assume) that their subjective feelings/suspicions about something is discernment given by the Spirit. As a result, since their discernment must be of the Spirit, it cannot be questioned. When questioned, they respond: "Well, if you had Spirit-discernment, too, you'd agree that I'm discerning by the power of the Spirit." This is a great example of the logical fallacy philosophers call "Begging the Question" (aka - circular reasoning).

It's in order to avoid this situation that I am pressing you for something more than "because I say so" or "well it all worked out in a surprising way, so it has to be of God." Safeguarding real spiritual discernment from abuse requires an objective basis for evaluation.

I am not discerning the future but is it of God or not of God . Is it God's truth as stated in the bible and revealed by the Holy Spirit .

You're aware that there were other instances of conversion in Acts unmarked by tongues, too? The Philippian jailer in Acts 16, the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8:26-39, the three thousand in Acts 2, the crippled man in Acts 3:1-8, the centurion, Crispus, and many Corinthians in Acts 18:8, and so on. I'm not suggesting you didn't speak in tongues when you were saved, only pointing out that such an experience does not always accompany conversion.

I agree . My wife said not often that it does happen from her observations .

To what end did God do this, exactly? What divine purpose was served by your narrated dream?

The process is still on going . Some of what I think , the dream and then having to live it out was showing me in absolute terms the God knows my future . I was at my lowest point as a Christian right before I saw my dream was coming true , I cried and I praised God . I knew God was with me and knew exactly what I was going through .

I've never had a vision. And know of no believer, personally, who has. Certainly, in the span of history covered by the Bible (roughly, some 4000 years), they were exceedingly rare. In light of this, I am very...skeptical of the proliferation of "visions" in our modern era. Too often, it seems one has only to assert that they've had a vision from God to establish that one actually has had such a vision. Dangerous stuff, spiritually. Very dangerous.

Way too many of the "visions" that I read about people saying they had are almost like Revelation . " Buy my book and read about my "vision" "

How does one walk with God without spiritual discernment?

The blind leading the blind and they both fall in a ditch .

Is the Spirit's illumination of the Truth of God to you and I not giving light, that is, discernment, to us? It seems so to me..

I think things are already in this world and more coming that Bible scripture does not address and we will have to depend heavily on the Holy Spirit's help .

 

[Tenchi]

Experiencing God continued:

5.) Transformation. (Romans 8:29; 2 Corinthians 3:18)

It's been said that the greatest constant in life is change. In our physical bodies we are undergoing change all the time, all our tissues and bones in a constant cycle of replacement. Intellectually and psychologically we are always altering, too, new experiences and information adjusting and amending our understanding, preferences, behavior and even our personality. Our spiritual lives also are always migrating in one of two directions: Toward God or away from Him.

When the born-again believer is moving consistently and persistently toward God, the life of Christ manifests ever more fully in and through them. Rather than becoming merely a better version of themselves, the follower of Christ is in a process of homogenization that requires the death of who they are apart from God and the growth of the "seed" of the life of Christ that is in them in the Person of the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5; Romans 8:9-14; 1 Corinthians 6:19-20) . All Christians, then, are in a continuum of change that is bringing them to the same place or condition: Christlikeness.

Romans 8:29 (NASB)
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

2 Corinthians 3:18 (NASB)
18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

2 Corinthians 4:7-11 (NASB)
7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the surpassing greatness of the power will be of God and not from ourselves;
8 we are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not despairing;
9 persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed;
10 always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body.
11 For we who live are constantly being delivered over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh.

Galatians 2:20 (NASB)
20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Colossians 3:1-5 (NASB)
1 Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
2 Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.
3 For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.
5 Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.

What shape, exactly does the life of Christ take in the born-again believer's life? How is it distinct from self-reformation, self-improvement? Well, the apostle Paul has offered a description:

Ephesians 5:8-11 (NASB)
8 for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light
9 (for the fruit of the Light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth),
10 trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord.
11 Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them;

As the Light and Life of Christ permeates the believer's living more and more completely, there will be a natural migration away from darkness, an ever-increasing desire to please God, and the exposure of the "unfruitful deeds of darkness," particularly within themselves and the Church.

Galatians 5:22-24 (NASB)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

The Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9) transforms the believer who is constantly submitted to his control (Romans 6:13-22; James 4:6-10; 1 Peter 5:6; Romans 12:1), forming in them the "fruit" of who he is. As this occurs, the inevitable result will be that the believer enters, by faith, ever more deeply into the fact of their being "dead to sin and alive unto God through Jesus Christ" (Romans 6:11). This process never ends, each day being a fresh opportunity to move ever-deeper into intimate communion with God and manifesting the transformative consequences of doing so.

Philippians 2:5-8 (NASB)
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

A born-again believer comes to have the servant-attitude of Jesus by the Spirit of Christ who makes of them his temple. And as the believer is submitted to the Spirit, he conforms them more and more to Christ's self-sacrificing example. So it is that the spiritually-healthy Christian never ceases to move along a continuum of change, Christ shining from them with greater and greater clarity and power.

What distinguishes this Spirit-transformation of the believer isn't just the Christ-centered and consistent character of the change but the power with which it is accomplished that doesn't leave the believer exhausted, drained of all their human resources of will-power and fleshly energy, but moves them from strength to strength, more empowered over time, rather than depleted.

As well, after a time of Spirit-transformation, the believer knows more about the Spirit, about God, than merely their own capacities and quirks. They have experienced His promised work and so are deepened in their confidence and joy in Him.

 

[Tenchi]

Bump.