Explaining why many people are stuck on OSAS

[John Zain]

Silly me … I thought all a BAC had to do was read the Scriptures and believe them!

I recently came across this teaching on the Internet …

"This subject is one that I believe the devil has done much damage. If a person is saved and tormented by guilt and shame, then the devil will accuse them of not being saved. This is used by the enemy to bring much fear, torment and condemnation into a person's life. There is no need to fear losing your salvation, if you know how much that God loves you, how merciful of a God we serve, and how we are not saved by works but by grace. Are we living a worldly lifestyle? Are we holding unforgiveness in our hearts? Now that's another story.

“… if you have anything against anyone, forgive him,
that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses.
But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses.”
(Mark 11:25-26) Please also see Matt 6:14-15, Matt 18:21-35.

I strongly encourage you to consider the whole gospel of salvation, as it is VERY much filled with hope and the love of God, and not to simply look at this teaching and feel condemned. It is my hope that this teaching motivates you to get serious about your relationship with God and forgive those whom have wronged you. That is what Jesus is asking of us! To love Him with our whole heart, and to love one another as He has forgiven us. Is that asking too much, after all that He has done for us? Not at all.

Those who need to hold tightly to the once-saved theory, are those who's minds are bound in dead religion. They do not grasp the concept of God's love, grace, and mercy towards us, and therefore need to feel secure, because they do not feel worthy as they are attempting to be saved by works. They feel that one mistake, and God is angry with them. This is not true, but to somebody who has religious strongholds and spirits (demons), this is too big of a reality to overlook. If you cling tightly to the once-saved theory, then you have some serious bondages to religion and should resolve those through spiritual warfare and deliverance and establish your intimate relationship with God.

It is my heart's desire with this teaching to do two things: (a) break up the nonsense of once-saved theology which is costing the body of Christ numerous number of souls every year, and (b) provide comfort and truth to those who are tormented constantly over fear of losing their salvation. If you think that you're going to lose your salvation every time you slip up, then you are not living in grace but legalism, and do not understand your relationship with God, and as a result, you will constantly fear loss of your salvation and fall into condemnation.

Why is it so important to preach against once-saved? Because millions of souls are in hell because the church has not done it's job educating the body. While we are out evangelizing the sinners, there are people in our own congregations that are on their way to hell. Why? One good reason is unforgiveness. The Bible is crystal clear that if we don't forgive those who wrong us, then we are not going to receive forgiveness for our own sins, and as a result, we abide in spiritual death."

(Thus ends the Introduction to a very long teaching on OSAS.)

2 Corinthians 10:3-6
“For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh.
For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against
the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ
(i.e. Scripture and the Holy Spirit)”

A stronghold is an area in a believer’s life where Satan has great spiritual control (influence).
Satan puts thoughts into the heads of all BACs.
This is just one of the areas in which we must be overcomers.

 

[clark thompson]

People spend to much focu on this topic. I seems I see more on this than other other because it is most easiest to agrue about.

 

[Brother Mike]

The Bible is crystal clear that if we don't forgive those who wrong us, then we are not going to receive forgiveness for our own sins, and as a result, we abide in spiritual death."

Jesus mentioned this for prayer. Is this just a prayer hindrance like in Peter where the Husband is suppose to treat their wife properly? Does my UN-forgiveness mean I have to go to Hell?

Do I loose my High priest who is always making intercession for me?

OSAS is often rooted in some election doctrine anyway. It's a doctrine that says no matter what I believe, What I say, What I declare, it's not my fault. God is Sovereign and decides everything, despite what I do, I don't get the blame.

No fault Religion.

It's a mirror of the world who also does not like to take blame for natural things.

Blessings.

Mike.

 

[Danus]

Those who need to hold tightly to the once-saved theory, are those who's minds are bound in dead religion. They do not grasp the concept of God's love, grace, and mercy towards us, and therefore need to feel secure, because they do not feel worthy as they are attempting to be saved by works.

Look up the word "grace"; then look up the term "oxymoron", and then re-read what you wrote here. That might help.

 

[farouk]

However some folk may want to argue, there is always Romans 8.36-39.

 

[Potluck]

The Bible is crystal clear that if we don't forgive those who wrong us, then we are not going to receive forgiveness for our own sins, and as a result, we abide in spiritual death."

Jesus mentioned this for prayer. Is this just a prayer hindrance like in Peter where the Husband is suppose to treat their wife properly? Does my UN-forgiveness mean I have to go to Hell?

Do I loose my High priest who is always making intercession for me?

OSAS is often rooted in some election doctrine anyway. It's a doctrine that says no matter what I believe, What I say, What I declare, it's not my fault. God is Sovereign and decides everything, despite what I do, I don't get the blame.

No fault Religion.

It's a mirror of the world who also does not like to take blame for natural things.

Blessings.

Mike.

OSAS blames everything on God? That sounds more like a secular dodge to me. Or one side of a debate concerning predestination taken to extreme. I don't think a "no fault religion" would work out so well.

 

[Brother Mike]

OSAS blames everything on God? That sounds more like a secular dodge to me. Or one side of a debate concerning predestination taken to extreme. I don't think a "no fault religion" would work out so well.

The OSAS doctrine is rooted in Election. That is where this Baptist, Calvinist Doctrine came from and it's a Baptist Doctrine. You have to destroy the roots to get the surface child of OSAS out of the picture.

And yes, it's all God's fault, no matter good or bad. After all, God is Sovereign and decides everything. He is just so mysterious in his ways, as you never know what God is going to do.

Mike.

 

[Potluck]

Election... predestination?
And freewill.
That debate has been going on for years.
There is scripture to support both views obviously. Paul had no choice on the road to Damascus. And there are instances of people turning their hearts toward God by choice. The Baptists may have lifted predestination to the status of doctrine, of election, but there's just no denying both freewill and predestination exist in scripture.
I do indeed believe both predestination and freewill exist. Some want an either/or view but that's not in the spirit of reconciling what appears to be contradiction. Why must the mechanics of salvation be the same for everybody? Do this, do that, receive salvation.

And yes, it's all God's fault, no matter good or bad. After all, God is Sovereign and decides everything. He is just so mysterious in his ways, as you never know what God is going to do.

I've run up against that argument quite a bit while witnessing to people that don't have Christ in their life. That's usually reenforced by pointing out claims of contradiction, pointing to Old Testament Law with no knowledge of the message of Christ, or denial of what Christ's ministry actually meant. How many times have we heard "God made me this way", or "I'm wired this way.". All that does is deny change in the way one thinks attempting to put the blame on God rather than accepting one's accountability in His judgment. A stiff-necked people. "If God judges me guilty and sends me to Hell then it's His fault for making me this way." Seems the rebellious spirit feeds on it's own rebellion.

I can honestly attest to knowing predestination exists long before I knew a Baptist or what a Baptist was in the first place after I was saved. Same thing goes for the Trinity. I believed Christ is God before I knew a debate even existed. I'd assumed wrongly that all Christians believed the three were indeed one. Finding out differently was quite a shock and that led me to delving more deeply into scripture. Then I find out the Baptists raise predestination to the level of a hotly debated doctrine. And not all Christians believe Christ is God.

And all this occurred in Salt lake City where, yes, I ran smack dab into the Mormons. My hair was on fire for the Lord at that time. Thankfully. Then I started getting into the online forums. Wow. Just wow. The differences from my first assumption were a bit overwhelming and again back to scripture.

Still, predestination and freewill are both biblical. Some are called (as in Paul's case) and all are invited. I just don't see why it must be one or the other.


Predestination an easy believism? Hardly. Paul had a very hard time of it both in this world and spiritually. The spirit changes, the mind takes a 180, convicting the flesh day in and day out. Only faith in Christ, that he is also faithful to keep His promises, a contrite heart and prayer soothes the agony of being apart from Christ. As Paul said it would be better that he die to be with Christ but that it's better for others that he doesn't. And he also declared... Oh wretched man that I am! No, I see no easy-believism in predestination.

 

[JLB]

Election... predestination?
And freewill.
That debate has been going on for years.
There is scripture to support both views obviously. Paul had no choice on the road to Damascus. And there are instances of people turning their hearts toward God by choice. The Baptists may have lifted predestination to the status of doctrine, of election, but there's just no denying both freewill and predestination exist in scripture.
I do indeed believe both predestination and freewill exist. Some want an either/or view but that's not in the spirit of reconciling what appears to be contradiction. Why must the mechanics of salvation be the same for everybody? Do this, do that, receive salvation.

And yes, it's all God's fault, no matter good or bad. After all, God is Sovereign and decides everything. He is just so mysterious in his ways, as you never know what God is going to do.

I've run up against that argument quite a bit while witnessing to people that don't have Christ in their life. That's usually reenforced by pointing out claims of contradiction, pointing to Old Testament Law with no knowledge of the message of Christ, or denial of what Christ's ministry actually meant. How many times have we heard "God made me this way", or "I'm wired this way.". All that does is deny change in the way one thinks attempting to put the blame on God rather than accepting one's accountability in His judgment. A stiff-necked people. "If God judges me guilty and sends me to Hell then it's His fault for making me this way." Seems the rebellious spirit feeds on it's own rebellion.

I can honestly attest to knowing predestination exists long before I knew a Baptist or what a Baptist was in the first place after I was saved. Same thing goes for the Trinity. I believed Christ is God before I knew a debate even existed. I'd assumed wrongly that all Christians believed the three were indeed one. Finding out differently was quite a shock and that led me to delving more deeply into scripture. Then I find out the Baptists raise predestination to the level of a hotly debated doctrine. And not all Christians believe Christ is God.

And all this occurred in Salt lake City where, yes, I ran smack dab into the Mormons. My hair was on fire for the Lord at that time. Thankfully. Then I started getting into the online forums. Wow. Just wow. The differences from my first assumption were a bit overwhelming and again back to scripture.

Still, predestination and freewill are both biblical. Some are called (as in Paul's case) and all are invited. I just don't see why it must be one or the other.


Predestination an easy believism? Hardly. Paul had a very hard time of it both in this world and spiritually. The spirit changes, the mind takes a 180, convicting the flesh day in and day out. Only faith in Christ, that he is also faithful to keep His promises, a contrite heart and prayer soothes the agony of being apart from Christ. As Paul said it would be better that he die to be with Christ but that it's better for others that he doesn't. And he also declared... Oh wretched man that I am! No, I see no easy-believism in predestination.

I'm with you on alot of this.

I had never heard of Preterism until I came to this forum.

The balance of two scriptures that says exactly the opposite takes the Wisdom of the Spirit.

Reconciling being saved by Grace, with continuing in the faith and not turning away from the hope of the Gospel...

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

The context is salvation is by God's grace, not by human effort.

Paul is not exclaiming an eternal guarantee here, but saying that salvation comes by grace, not of human effort, which includes the phrase not of yourself and not of works.

That is the message.

Not OSAS.


JLB

 

[Potluck]

During my time in Salt Lake I used that verse witnessing to a temple worker. He repeated with an addition, "Yes, For by grace you have been saved through faith after all we can do"
That reply told me a bit of what I was up against. A works-centered religion.

But here again, I just don't believe Paul could have turned from the Gospel any more than Moses could have turned away from God.
People seem to have trouble accepting a free gift anyway. They always seem to try to "make up" for it in some way. You can do a kindness to someone and they'll offer something in return. I find it's much the same way concerning the Grace of God. And it ultimately gets them focusing on themselves, what they do to somehow make them feel they deserve it and the continuance thereof, rather than focusing on Him.

 

[Brother Mike]

And not all Christians believe Christ is God.

Christ means anointed, it's not even a Greek Noun. I would recheck this again as Theos is a Male noun. Also, Jesus was called Theos 3 times. Once by God the father, ONce by John as the "True God" and once by Thomas.

So just believing Jesus is Theos (A deity of uncertain origin, Immortal) Just means you believe He is just like His Father, it does not mean you actually believe in the trinity Concept.

I do indeed believe both predestination and freewill exist. Some want an either/or view but that's not in the spirit of reconciling what appears to be contradiction. Why must the mechanics of salvation be the same for everybody? Do this, do that, receive salvation.

From what I read in scriptures, everyone has a predestination. Everyone has a plan, a path and set course made and designed by God. We are created for his workmanship, God sets those in the body as he Pleases. David had his paths know before him and ahead of him.

The freewill part takes us off the path of the just, and puts us in the path of the dark where we stumble on things and don't even know what we stumbled on. Freewill (Doing what we want) takes us off God's path and into problems, trouble and issues.

So there is a predestination, Even God set Pharaoh up saying . "I don't think Pharaoh will listen without a heavy hand." God knowing his heart ahead of time and with much long suffering toward Pharaoh had made him an example.

God does not send affliction willingly, but a righteous Judge does not continue to allow evils to go unchecked either. What man ends up through disobedience is the plan God never designed for them saying I know the thoughts I think about you, thoughts of peace and to prosper you until the end.

OSAS removes who are are created Just Like the Father to love and trust him on our own, and sends us into a lesser being that is no more than a robot not responsible for having faith, or responsible for choices made concerning our great God.

I had never heard of Preterism until I came to this forum.

Same here, I thought I have heard all the extreme levels of confusion I thought possible, Serpent seed doctrine, We are really angels, and so on. This takes it to new levels removing chunks of what is to come.

Blessings

Mike.

 

[mondar]

Those who need to hold tightly to the once-saved theory, are those who's minds are bound in dead religion. They do not grasp the concept of God's love, grace, and mercy towards us, and therefore need to feel secure, because they do not feel worthy as they are attempting to be saved by works.

Look up the word "grace"; then look up the term "oxymoron", and then re-read what you wrote here. That might help.

Danus, I agree that there is a "grace" issue with those who oppose OSAS. On the other hand, I do think there are a few who speak on OSAS who might go too far and not take a proper view of responsibility. Without responsibility, OSAS is not grace, but license.

 

[Potluck]

I just don't share your opinion of OSAS irresponsibility Brother Mike.

 

[Potluck]

Without responsibility, OSAS is not grace, but license.

Exactly

 

[Brother Mike]

I just don't share your opinion of OSAS irresponsibility Brother Mike.

It could be possible that not being brought up Baptist then you might not get my point being aimed and the Hard core election concept.

Whatever happens to me is God!!! It's God's fault bad or good.

This is a Baptist understanding of God, so OSAS is a person by the election of Grace picked by God to be saved and nothing can change that.

My kid dying is not my fault, My car accident is not my fault, my house being foreclosed on is not my fault. What I believe, what I do, what I say does not effect any outcome of anything.

Therefore there is nothing I can do to be unsaved once God chooses me to be saved. No matter what I believe, do, or say, I have to stay saved.

Like the women telling me God gave her Husband a Heart attack so Her husband could have witnessed to the young man that shared his hospital room. The heart attack is God's fault, not the man that did not listen to the doctors all those years and change his diet and exercise. It's all God's fault because the young man needed Jesus and God could not figure out any other way to get the good news over to the man.

It's God's fault that I went to jail a couple years ago so I could witness to a young man in jail. No, I ignored the Holy Spirit about taking care of my license and ended up in Jail for a revoked license that did not need to be revoked Had I paid attention and followed through. Being in Jail I found someone that needed to hear about the Lord, as I might as well make the best of it for the Lord.

It's like prisoners saying God put them in prison so they can get closer to God without the distractions of the outside World. So God's fault you grabbed a gun and robbed the bank, that was God's perfect plan for your life??

Be blessed.

Mike.

 

[Potluck]

Ok, so we're talking about a certain group focusing on certain parts of scripture much more than others to support their beliefs. Not unusual.

Just because I also share a belief in the same scripture doesn't mean I share their gusto or extremist views based on said scripture. Maybe "extremist" is too strong a word. dunno.
Seems your objection is based on ideas brought forth through extreme views because to tell the truth if that's how Baptists see it (the irresponsibility you posted) then I'm not all that agreeable with that view either.
None-the-less I believe predestination is biblical.

 

[Potluck]

It could be possible that not being brought up Baptist then you might not get my point being aimed and the Hard core election concept.

Not only possible but true.

My point is that I can believe the OSAS concept without believing everything the Baptists believe about it. If what you say is true then it seems they're taking it a few steps further than what I care to take.

 

[John Zain]

However some folk may want to argue, there is always Romans 8.36-39.

Yes, I refer to Romans 8:28-30 all the time.
IMO, these are the elect who were chosen before the foundation of the world.

IMO, not all BACs are part of this elect group ...
... and this is what all of the warnings are about.

The warnings are directed at both groups:
-- the elect will take heed and will be overcomers
-- the other BACs will not
It makes no sense for the warnings to be aimed at anyone else, right?

 

[John Zain]

The OSAS doctrine is rooted in Election.

I am 100% into election ...
but BACs are not given a free pass with no responsibilities.

After being born-again, our free will kicks in.
The Lord will not circumvent our free will.

 

[John Zain]

People seem to have trouble accepting a free gift anyway. They always seem to try to "make up" for it in some way. You can do a kindness to someone and they'll offer something in return. I find it's much the same way concerning the Grace of God. And it ultimately gets them focusing on themselves, what they do to somehow make them feel they deserve it and the continuance thereof, rather than focusing on Him.

Sorry, I have NO problem whatsoever with
God's free gift of grace-faith-salvation (Eph 2:8-9)
... if it wasn't for those tiny little pesky warnings (many dozens of them)!