Faith alone questions

[donadams]

“Faith alone” Questions

where does ez 36: 25:27 Say “faith alone”?

where does scripture says we have died with Christ by “faith alone”?

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

where does scripture say we are members of Christ and his church by “faith alone”?

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

where does scripture says we put on Christ by “faith alone”?

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Where does scripture say our sins are washed away by “faith alone”?

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

where does scripture say we are saved or justified by “faith alone”?

1 pet 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!

The only reference in scripture to “faith alone” is James 2:24 NOT BY “FAITH ALONE”?

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

How can you enter by your own if it must be ministered to you? Baptism is done unto you, “not do it yourself by faith alone”

Jn 3:5 born again by faith alone?

Where is “Accept Christ as your personal lord & savior” is found in scripture?

They did not go preaching this line but went immediately to the river and baptized Jn 3:22

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Eph 4:5 one baptism

Why don’t it say one teeny tiny little act of “faith alone”???

When we first believed we are saved?

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

How can salvation be nearer than when we first believed if you’re saved by believing?

1 pet 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.

How can salvation happen when we first believed if it’s the end?

If salvation is by “faith alone” then faith would be the greatest!
1 cor 13:13 charity is the greatest!

Even all faith much less “faith alone” without charity avails nothing!
1 cor 13:2

“Faith alone” unbiblical!

“Faith alone” is a heresy condemned by the authority of Christ in holy apostolic council!


We must also suffer!

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Phil 1:29 not called to believe alone but also to suffer for Christ’s sake.
Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

 

[st_worm2]

“Faith alone” Questions

where does ez 36: 25:27 Say “faith alone”?

Hello Don, Ezekiel 36:25-27 is all about things that God needs to do for us (so that we can come to saving faith in Him .. see the text in bold). IOW, that passage says nothing about our faith and/or salvation by faith alone.

Ezekiel 36​

25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.​

26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.​

27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.​

Whoops, gotta go. I will try to return later however (as there are a couple more things that I'd like to comment on/ask you about).

God bless you!!

--David

 

[Iconoclast]

water baptism does not save. You have been lied to.

 

[Mungo]

water baptism does not save. You have been lied to.

God saves in baptism (with water).
He who believes and is baptized will be saved (Mk 16:16)
You just need to believe and obey.
Faith alone is not enough.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I think the thesis of the thread is explained poorly. I think donadams is trying to demonstrate that water baptism is necessary for salvation and thus faith alone is incorrect.

First off, what is FAITH ALONE. FAITH ALONE means we are “justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law”.

Point #1 Faith alone verses which specifically says works are excluded
Romans 3:28; Romans 4:5; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8-9

Point #2 There are many verses implicitly indicate water baptism is needed to be saved
see https://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-salvation.html for their exegesis
I'll deal with Mark 16:16 by way of example:

• “baptism is not mentioned when the Mark 16:16 is repeated in the negative form.
• There is no evidence in the passage to show that the baptism referred to in Mark 16 is ritual (with water), rather than by the Spirit.
• Mark 16:9-20 are not included in some older manuscripts so their inclusion in scripture is questionable.
• Acts 10:44-48 tells story of Cornelius and family. The Spirit regenerates them indicating they've been born again and they are subsequently water baptized

Point #3 What are the consequences of believing in works based salvation (not believing in Faith Alone)
Paul in Galatians speaks about the Gospel and its connection to Faith and disconnection to Works ...
a) First Paul speaks of the spiritually deadly consequences of getting the gospel wrong (the theme of Galatians)

• Galatians 1:9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

b) Paul says salvation does not include works (water baptism is a work)

• Gal 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

c) Paul gives example of belief in works for salvation and the DIRE CONSEQUENCES. Paul uses circumcision
as an example of a spiritually deadly work some propose for salvation

• Gal. 5:2 Notice, it is I, Paul, who tells you that if you receive circumcision [as a supposed requirement of salvation], Christ will be of no benefit to you [for you will lack the faith in Christ that is necessary for salvation]. 3 Once more I solemnly affirm to every man who receives circumcision [as a supposed requirement of salvation], that he is under obligation and required to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, if you seek to be justified [that is, declared free of the guilt of sin and its penalty, and placed in right standing with God] through the Law; you have fallen from grace [for you have lost your grasp on God’s unmerited favor and blessing]. 5 For we [not relying on the Law but] through the [strength and power of the Holy] Spirit, by faith, are waiting [confidently] for the hope of righteousness [the completion of our salvation]. 6 For [if we are] in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but only faith activated and expressed and working through love.

Good luck (human perspective) or predestination (God's perspective)

 

[Tenchi]

Hello Don, Ezekiel 36:25-27 is all about things that God needs to do for us (so that we can come to saving faith in Him .. see the text in bold). IOW, that passage says nothing about our faith and/or salvation by faith alone.

Ezekiel 36 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
Whoops, gotta go. I will try to return later however (as there are a couple more things that I'd like to comment on/ask you about).

God bless you!!

--David

Hey! You are a poster on Christianforums.com. I read and appreciated a good number of your posts before I got kicked off the forum (I was "aiki" there). Have you been posting here long?

 

[Mungo]

I think the thesis of the thread is explained poorly. I think donadams is trying to demonstrate that water baptism is necessary for salvation and thus faith alone is incorrect.

First off, what is FAITH ALONE. FAITH ALONE means we are “justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law”.

Point #1 Faith alone verses which specifically says works are excluded
Romans 3:28; Romans 4:5; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8-9

Point #2 There are many verses implicitly indicate water baptism is needed to be saved
see https://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-salvation.html for their exegesis
I'll deal with Mark 16:16 by way of example:

• “baptism is not mentioned when the Mark 16:16 is repeated in the negative form.
• There is no evidence in the passage to show that the baptism referred to in Mark 16 is ritual (with water), rather than by the Spirit.
• Mark 16:9-20 are not included in some older manuscripts so their inclusion in scripture is questionable.
• Acts 10:44-48 tells story of Cornelius and family. The Spirit regenerates them indicating they've been born again and they are subsequently water baptized

Point #3 What are the consequences of believing in works based salvation (not believing in Faith Alone)
Paul in Galatians speaks about the Gospel and its connection to Faith and disconnection to Works ...
a) First Paul speaks of the spiritually deadly consequences of getting the gospel wrong (the theme of Galatians)

• Galatians 1:9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

b) Paul says salvation does not include works (water baptism is a work)

• Gal 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

c) Paul gives example of belief in works for salvation and the DIRE CONSEQUENCES. Paul uses circumcision
as an example of a spiritually deadly work some propose for salvation

• Gal. 5:2 Notice, it is I, Paul, who tells you that if you receive circumcision [as a supposed requirement of salvation], Christ will be of no benefit to you [for you will lack the faith in Christ that is necessary for salvation]. 3 Once more I solemnly affirm to every man who receives circumcision [as a supposed requirement of salvation], that he is under obligation and required to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, if you seek to be justified [that is, declared free of the guilt of sin and its penalty, and placed in right standing with God] through the Law; you have fallen from grace [for you have lost your grasp on God’s unmerited favor and blessing]. 5 For we [not relying on the Law but] through the [strength and power of the Holy] Spirit, by faith, are waiting [confidently] for the hope of righteousness [the completion of our salvation]. 6 For [if we are] in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but only faith activated and expressed and working through love.

Good luck (human perspective) or predestination (God's perspective)

Reply to point #1
By works Paul means works of the [Jewish] law, works that try to earn salvation - for example Rom 3:28 & Gal 2:16
In Rom 4:5 he says "Now to one who works, his wages are not reckoned as a gift but as his due" - i.e someone who tries to earn salvation.
Salvation is a gift but that does not mean we may not have to do something to receive that gift.
If by works you mean anything we have to do - then believing is a work and so we cannot be saved by faith.

The point is that the gift far exceeds the value of anything we do. It is not commensurate, but God often requires that someone does something in obedience before God acts. There are many examples I can give if you want them but here one. I'm sure you know the story of Naaman the leper in 2 Kings 5. He had faith that God could cure him but God wanted an act of obedience and he was told to bathe himself three times in the river Jordan. He was angry and turned away saying Are not Abana and Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? (vs 12). And he was correct in that, but that was not the point. The point was obedience. When he obeyed he was saved.

Similarly with baptism (in water). Yes, baptism in itself does not save us, but as well as faith God wants an act of obedience. Disobedience is disbelief.

 

[donadams]

Hello Don, Ezekiel 36:25-27 is all about things that God needs to do for us (so that we can come to saving faith in Him .. see the text in bold). IOW, that passage says nothing about our faith and/or salvation by faith alone.

Ezekiel 36​

25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.​

26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.​

27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.​

Whoops, gotta go. I will try to return later however (as there are a couple more things that I'd like to comment on/ask you about).

God bless you!!

--David

Thanks
Yes love those verses about faith and baptism
Anytime

 

[Mungo]

I think the thesis of the thread is explained poorly. I think donadams is trying to demonstrate that water baptism is necessary for salvation and thus faith alone is incorrect.

First off, what is FAITH ALONE. FAITH ALONE means we are “justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law”.

Point #1 Faith alone verses which specifically says works are excluded
Romans 3:28; Romans 4:5; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8-9

Point #2 There are many verses implicitly indicate water baptism is needed to be saved
see https://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-salvation.html for their exegesis
I'll deal with Mark 16:16 by way of example:

• “baptism is not mentioned when the Mark 16:16 is repeated in the negative form.
• There is no evidence in the passage to show that the baptism referred to in Mark 16 is ritual (with water), rather than by the Spirit.
• Mark 16:9-20 are not included in some older manuscripts so their inclusion in scripture is questionable.
• Acts 10:44-48 tells story of Cornelius and family. The Spirit regenerates them indicating they've been born again and they are subsequently water baptized

Point #3 What are the consequences of believing in works based salvation (not believing in Faith Alone)
Paul in Galatians speaks about the Gospel and its connection to Faith and disconnection to Works ...
a) First Paul speaks of the spiritually deadly consequences of getting the gospel wrong (the theme of Galatians)

• Galatians 1:9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

b) Paul says salvation does not include works (water baptism is a work)

• Gal 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

c) Paul gives example of belief in works for salvation and the DIRE CONSEQUENCES. Paul uses circumcision
as an example of a spiritually deadly work some propose for salvation

• Gal. 5:2 Notice, it is I, Paul, who tells you that if you receive circumcision [as a supposed requirement of salvation], Christ will be of no benefit to you [for you will lack the faith in Christ that is necessary for salvation]. 3 Once more I solemnly affirm to every man who receives circumcision [as a supposed requirement of salvation], that he is under obligation and required to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, if you seek to be justified [that is, declared free of the guilt of sin and its penalty, and placed in right standing with God] through the Law; you have fallen from grace [for you have lost your grasp on God’s unmerited favor and blessing]. 5 For we [not relying on the Law but] through the [strength and power of the Holy] Spirit, by faith, are waiting [confidently] for the hope of righteousness [the completion of our salvation]. 6 For [if we are] in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but only faith activated and expressed and working through love.

Good luck (human perspective) or predestination (God's perspective)

Reply to point #2

• “baptism is not mentioned when the Mark 16:16 is repeated in the negative form.

It is not repeated exactly in the negative form so this point is invalid. The negative for says nothing about baptism. It only says that some who does not believe will be condemned.
That leaves open what happens if someone believes but does not get baptised. There may be a good reason why they do not get baptised. A classic example is someone who is crossing a road to get baptised and gets killed by a car as he does so. What happens then is God's decision.
God can choose to save such a person. if he so wishes. That's his choice. All he has promised is that if we believe and are baptised we will be saved,

• There is no evidence in the passage to show that the baptism referred to in Mark 16 is ritual (with water), rather than by the Spirit.

Whilst that is strictly true there is plenty of evidence from scripture that baptism with water is what is meant. Moreover there is also no evidence in the passage that baptism is by the spirit. Bear in mind that at this is pre-Pentecost and there has been no "baptism in the Holy Spirit" so why would the Jesus have meant it as such without an explanation?

• Mark 16:9-20 are not included in some older manuscripts so their inclusion in scripture is questionable

This is just a copout. It's in my Bible, it's in your Bible, it's in all Bibles.

• Acts 10:44-48 tells story of Cornelius and family. The Spirit regenerates them indicating they've been born again and they are subsequently water baptized

The example of Cornelius is a very special case. And that's not just special pleading.
1. Peter was sent to Cornelius as a demonstration to Peter and the Church that they must include the Gentiles in their mission. As James says after Peter recalled the incident in Acts 15 - “Symeon has described how God first concerned himself with acquiring from among the Gentiles a people for his name.” (Acts 15:14). This incident therefore was God’s initiative to begin bringing the gentiles into the Church.

2. This was the second part of God’s fulfilling the prophecy of Joel that Peter quoted at Pentecost.
“‘It will come to pass in the last days,’ God says, ‘that I will pour out a portion of my spirit upon all flesh’”.
For the Jews mankind was divided into two – Jews and Gentiles. At Pentecost God poured out his Spirit on the Jews. Now with Cornelius God is pouring out his Spirit on the Gentiles.

3. The third point to note is that Cornelius is not just any old Gentile. He is a “God-fearer”, a Gentile who was almost converted to Judaism who often attended the synagogue (see Acts 13:16) and kept the Jewish prayer times – as Cornelius was when the Angel visited him.
“Now in Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of the Cohort called the Italica, devout and God-fearing along with his whole household, who used to give alms generously to the Jewish people and pray to God constantly. One afternoon about three o’clock, he saw plainly in a vision an angel of God come in to him” (Acts 10:1-3).

Cornelius was also a righteous man, acceptable to God. The angel said to Cornelius:
““Your prayers and almsgiving have ascended as a memorial offering before God. (Acts 10:4)
“Cornelius, your prayer has been heard and your almsgiving remembered before God.” (Acts 10:31)

The whole incident is therefore unique.

Moreover your point is not even supported by this incident.
It says in Acts 11:14 that Peter “will speak words to you [Cornelius] by which you and all your household will be saved”. Those words includes Peter’s command (not suggestion) that they be baptised (Acts 10:48). Peter was still instructing them on what they must do when the Holy Spirit was poured out on them and interrupted Peter’s instructions.

The instructions for baptism are part of Peter’s instructions as to how Cornelius and his household will be saved.

 

[Fastfredy0]

By works Paul means works of the [Jewish] law, works that try to earn salvation

Convenient explanation.

Definition of Work .... a mental or physical activity to achieve a purpose. Many people believe they must be baptized in water to be saved. If God gives an rule to follow then following it is a work. If you think it is a work that is needed for salvation Paul in Galatians says you seek salvation by another gospel and you must keep all the law.

Salvation is a gift but that does not mean we may not have to do something to receive that gift.

That is a contradiction. A gift is something you don't earn.
Definition of gift: Something that is bestowed voluntarily and without compensation.

Gee, using your definition of gift I could say my employer gave me a gift every second Friday of the month.

Eph. 2:8 For it is by grace [God’s remarkable compassion and favor drawing you to Christ] that you have been saved [actually delivered from judgment and given eternal life] through faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [not through your own effort], but it is the [undeserved, gracious] gift of God; 9 not as a result of [your] works [nor your attempts to keep the Law], so that no one will [be able to] boast or take credit in any way [for his salvation]. AMP

The point is that the gift far exceeds the value of anything we do.

You are changing the definition of words to fit your purpose. There is not such definition of Gift being partially earned. Gift: something voluntarily transferred by one person to another without compensation https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gift
Changing the meaning of the words to make a point is a no-no

The point was obedience.

You can give me tons of examples showing people are to be obedient to gain God's favor, but not to be SAVED. If our salvation depends on our doing something then we have reason to boast and God says boasting is excluded from salvation. Eph. 2:9

 

[donadams]

water baptism does not save. You have been lied to.

1 pet 3:21?

Faith and baptism:

16:16 he that believes and is baptized shall be saved
Matt 28:19 faith and baptism
Acts 2:38-39 repent and be baptized (promise of ez 36:25)
Acts 8:36-38 faith and baptism
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism
1 pet 3:21 baptism saves us

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)

Sealed in the ark, sealed in the church the ark of salvation by God thru baptism!

Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!

“Faith alone” accomplishes nothing!
1 cor 13:2 even all faith (alone) without charity avails NOTHING!!!

Faith and baptism!

Scripture says none of the things about “Faith alone”!

Only James 2:24 a man is justified by works and not by “faith alone”

2 Peter 1:11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

The Christian sacrament of baptism is the Initiation into the new covenant and must be ministered to you by the apostles!

 

[donadams]

I think the thesis of the thread is explained poorly. I think donadams is trying to demonstrate that water baptism is necessary for salvation and thus faith alone is incorrect.

First off, what is FAITH ALONE. FAITH ALONE means we are “justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law”.

Point #1 Faith alone verses which specifically says works are excluded
Romans 3:28; Romans 4:5; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8-9

Point #2 There are many verses implicitly indicate water baptism is needed to be saved
see https://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-salvation.html for their exegesis
I'll deal with Mark 16:16 by way of example:

• “baptism is not mentioned when the Mark 16:16 is repeated in the negative form.
• There is no evidence in the passage to show that the baptism referred to in Mark 16 is ritual (with water), rather than by the Spirit.
• Mark 16:9-20 are not included in some older manuscripts so their inclusion in scripture is questionable.
• Acts 10:44-48 tells story of Cornelius and family. The Spirit regenerates them indicating they've been born again and they are subsequently water baptized

Point #3 What are the consequences of believing in works based salvation (not believing in Faith Alone)
Paul in Galatians speaks about the Gospel and its connection to Faith and disconnection to Works ...
a) First Paul speaks of the spiritually deadly consequences of getting the gospel wrong (the theme of Galatians)

• Galatians 1:9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

b) Paul says salvation does not include works (water baptism is a work)

• Gal 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

c) Paul gives example of belief in works for salvation and the DIRE CONSEQUENCES. Paul uses circumcision
as an example of a spiritually deadly work some propose for salvation

• Gal. 5:2 Notice, it is I, Paul, who tells you that if you receive circumcision [as a supposed requirement of salvation], Christ will be of no benefit to you [for you will lack the faith in Christ that is necessary for salvation]. 3 Once more I solemnly affirm to every man who receives circumcision [as a supposed requirement of salvation], that he is under obligation and required to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, if you seek to be justified [that is, declared free of the guilt of sin and its penalty, and placed in right standing with God] through the Law; you have fallen from grace [for you have lost your grasp on God’s unmerited favor and blessing]. 5 For we [not relying on the Law but] through the [strength and power of the Holy] Spirit, by faith, are waiting [confidently] for the hope of righteousness [the completion of our salvation]. 6 For [if we are] in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but only faith activated and expressed and working through love.

Good luck (human perspective) or predestination (God's perspective)

Paul rightly opposed works alone not faith and works (sacraments, prayer, fasting, alms, virtues etc.)

What about 1 cor 13:2 even all faith without charity avails nothing
And
1 Corinthians 16:22
If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.
And
Romans 13:11
…our salvation nearer than when we believed.
Thanks

 

[Fastfredy0]

• Mark 16:9-20 are not included in some older manuscripts so their inclusion in scripture is questionable

This is just a copout. It's in my Bible, it's in your Bible, it's in all Bibles.

I know your well versed and a good communicator. Your statement is ill informed.

I like the AMP version https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+16&version=AMP
It has a foot note saying saying the last 12 verses of Mark 16 were not found in earlier manuscripts

• Mark 16:9 Later mss add vv 9-20.

This is suspicious.
ESV says something similar:
Mark 16:9 Some manuscripts end the book with 16:8; others include verses 9–20 immediately after verse 8. At least one manuscript inserts additional material after verse 14; ...

Hey, my point is that I agree that there are verses that imply water baptism is needed for salvation. But this contradicts many other verses that insists WORKS are not a part of salvation. I am pointing out the weakness of verses that seem to support water baptism as necessary for salvation.

The example of Cornelius is a very special case. And that's not just special pleading.

Special Case explanation is weak in my opinion. Was the thief on the cross a "special case" too? How about death bed conversions, are they impossible as no time to baptize. (Aside: I grant that this is not absolute proof ... for that I gave 4ish verses saying we are not saved by WORKS of which water baptism is one.)

Cornelius was also a righteous man, acceptable to God. The angel said to Cornelius:
““Your prayers and almsgiving have ascended as a memorial offering before God. (Acts 10:4)
“Cornelius, your prayer has been heard and your almsgiving remembered before God.” (Acts 10:31)

The whole incident is therefore unique.

Everyone's situation is unique when you get down to the minute details. Therefore, a person's unique situation is not proof of anything. Example: I was born on Aug 1 in Toronto and so and so hospital by woman named Helen .... I was a unique situation. But this does not mean I can claim God treats me differently because I am unique. This is a straw man argument.

Moreover your point is not even supported by this incident.

We disagree. But the Cornelius incident is a minor point I make....the thief on the cross being another example.

Acts 10:44 While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word [the Holy Spirit only indwells in the saved]. 45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. 46 For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God [further evidence of salvation]. Then Peter declared, 47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people [evidence that these new believers were not baptized; yet they were saved], who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days. Notice in these verses they had already received the Holy Spirit before they were baptized in water.

• Gal. 5:2 Notice, it is I, Paul, who tells you that if you receive circumcision [as a supposed requirement of salvation], Christ will be of no benefit to you [for you will lack the faith in Christ that is necessary for salvation]. 3 Once more I solemnly affirm to every man who receives circumcision [as a supposed requirement of salvation], that he is under obligation and required to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, if you seek to be justified [that is, declared free of the guilt of sin and its penalty, and placed in right standing with God] through the Law; you have fallen from grace [for you have lost your grasp on God’s unmerited favor and blessing]. 5 For we [not relying on the Law but] through the [strength and power of the Holy] Spirit, by faith, are waiting [confidently] for the hope of righteousness [the completion of our salvation]. 6 For [if we are] in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but only faith activated and expressed and working through love.

Good luck (human perspective) or predestination (God's perspective)

 

[Mungo]

Convenient explanation.

Definition of Work .... a mental or physical activity to achieve a purpose. Many people believe they must be baptized in water to be saved. If God gives an rule to follow then following it is a work. If you think it is a work that is needed for salvation Paul in Galatians says you seek salvation by another gospel and you must keep all the law.

Obeying Jesus is not a work of the [Jewish] Law.
With your definition, which I agree with, believing is a work.
If Paul refers to "works of the law" then it follows that there are works that are not works of the law.

That is a contradiction. A gift is something you don't earn.
Definition of gift: Something that is bestowed voluntarily and without compensation.

Gee, using your definition of gift I could say my employer gave me a gift every second Friday of the month.

No it doesn't because you have earned that, as per Rom 4:4

Eph. 2:8 For it is by grace [God’s remarkable compassion and favor drawing you to Christ] that you have been saved [actually delivered from judgment and given eternal life] through faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [not through your own effort], but it is the [undeserved, gracious] gift of God; 9 not as a result of [your] works [nor your attempts to keep the Law], so that no one will [be able to] boast or take credit in any way [for his salvation]. AMP



You are changing the definition of words to fit your purpose. There is not such definition of Gift being partially earned. Gift: something voluntarily transferred by one person to another without compensation https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gift
Changing the meaning of the words to make a point is a no-no

Yes, a gift is something you don't earn. That is what I said.
But you still have to do something to receive that gift.
For example to receive a free food parcel from a Food Bank you have to turn up at the Food Bank. That doesn't mean you earn it.

You can give me tons of examples showing people are to be obedient to gain God's favor, but not to be SAVED. If our salvation depends on our doing something then we have reason to boast and God says boasting is excluded from salvation. Eph. 2:9

It's not a matter of receiving God's favour. It about receiving a gift from God.
Naaman received the gift of being saved from leprosy but he had to wash in the Jordan to receive that gift.
That wasn't earning it.

 

[Mungo]

I know your well versed and a good communicator. Your statement is ill informed.

I like the AMP version https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+16&version=AMP
It has a foot note saying saying the last 12 verses of Mark 16 were not found in earlier manuscripts

• Mark 16:9 Later mss add vv 9-20.

This is suspicious.
ESV says something similar:
Mark 16:9 Some manuscripts end the book with 16:8; others include verses 9–20 immediately after verse 8. At least one manuscript inserts additional material after verse 14; ...

Mt 16:16 in my Bible, It's in your Bible, It's in all Bibles

Hey, my point is that I agree that there are verses that imply water baptism is needed for salvation. But this contradicts many other verses that insists WORKS are not a part of salvation. I am pointing out the weakness of verses that seem to support water baptism as necessary for salvation.

Baptism is not a work of the law.

Special Case explanation is weak in my opinion. Was the thief on the cross a "special case" too? How about death bed conversions, are they impossible as no time to baptize. (Aside: I grant that this is not absolute proof ... for that I gave 4ish verses saying we are not saved by WORKS of which water baptism is one.)

In case you hadn't noticed it, the thief on the cross was before Jesus instituted baptism with water for salvation.

Everyone's situation is unique when you get down to the minute details. Therefore, a person's unique situation is not proof of anything. Example: I was born on Aug 1 in Toronto and so and so hospital by woman named Helen .... I was a unique situation. But this does not mean I can claim God treats me differently because I am unique. This is a straw man argument.

Don't be so obtuse. I gave you very valid reasons why Cornelius is a very special case.

We disagree. But the Cornelius incident is a minor point I make....the thief on the cross being another example.

Acts 10:44 While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word [the Holy Spirit only indwells in the saved]. 45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. 46 For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God [further evidence of salvation]. Then Peter declared, 47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people [evidence that these new believers were not baptized; yet they were saved], who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days. Notice in these verses they had already received the Holy Spirit before they were baptized in water.

And I explained that.

Also you say the Holy Spirit only indwells in the saved.
Where does Acts 10 say the Holy Spirit was indwelling in Cornelius.
Answer - it doesn't.
It says the the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. That's not the same thing.

 

[donadams]

Reply to point #1
By works Paul means works of the [Jewish] law, works that try to earn salvation - for example Rom 3:28 & Gal 2:16
In Rom 4:5 he says "Now to one who works, his wages are not reckoned as a gift but as his due" - i.e someone who tries to earn salvation.
Salvation is a gift but that does not mean we may not have to do something to receive that gift.
If by works you mean anything we have to do - then believing is a work and so we cannot be saved by faith.

The point is that the gift far exceeds the value of anything we do. It is not commensurate, but God often requires that someone does something in obedience before God acts. There are many examples I can give if you want them but here one. I'm sure you know the story of Naaman the leper in 2 Kings 5. He had faith that God could cure him but God wanted an act of obedience and he was told to bathe himself three times in the river Jordan. He was angry and turned away saying Are not Abana and Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? (vs 12). And he was correct in that, but that was not the point. The point was obedience. When he obeyed he was saved.

Similarly with baptism (in water). Yes, baptism in itself does not save us, but as well as faith God wants an act of obedience. Disobedience is disbelief.

There is no grace or union with Christ apart from baptism

Jn 15:5 apart from me you can do nothing, therefore with him we must do something

2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace issufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.

Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

 

[Fastfredy0]

What about 1 cor 13:2 even all faith without charity avails nothing

The verse does not directly address salvation which is the put of the theme of this thread IMO.
Aside: I am assuming the theme is: One must have FAITH and perform certain work(s) to cause one to be saved.

Your verse does not address the cause(s) of salvation. Your bias (we all have bias') has you associating the verse with salvation. The context is the importance of LOVE. I think we both agree that one of the causes of salvation is Faith.
I would say Faith Alone not only is the cause of salvation, but also the cause of love.
You would say Faith and charity are the causes of salvation.
The verse is not clear.
I know of no verse saying the cause/partial cause of salvation is charity.

1 Corinthians 16:22
If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.

How can one have Faith and not love Christ? Love (to favor) is part of faith. Believing in Christ means you trust in Him and love Him and obey him.

Romans 13:11
…our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Nothing here that I can see about performing work(s) in order to be saved.

What works did the thief on the cross perform to be saved? After he believed did they take him off the cross for an hour or so to be baptized so complete his salvation?

You need to explain

• Romans 3:28; Romans 4:5; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8-9
• you need to use verse(s) that explicitly state the works that cause salvation other than faith. Faith is the CAUSE of works so there can be countless verses associating various works to faith.

I grant that some verses imply Water Baptism is needed to be saved, but there are many verses that contradict this premise. One either has to explain why Water Baptism is not a cause of salvation (which I did) or explain the verses that say we are not saves by works. Also explain the contradiction of doing works and verses saying we have nothing to boast about, the contradiction that salvation is a gift and yet one must do works, the contradiction that we are saved by grace (unmerited favor) and yet by the addition of works (merited favor).

 

[donadams]

The ole thief on the cross does not apply cos the new covenant was not in effect and baptism was not required heb 9:16

 

[Fastfredy0]

Mt 16:16 in my Bible, It's in your Bible, It's in all Bibles

Yeah, and so are the Chapter numbers and divisions but those divisions are man made. Anyways, you ignored my point. There earliest manuscripts DO NOT have the last 12 verses of Mark 16 in them and are therefore suspect. That's why bibles put an asterisk on these verses to point out they are suspect. There is also baptism of the Spirit. Even assuming the verse is supposed to be in the Bible, the verse doesn't differentiate between water and the Spirit's baptism. Granted, this doesn't disprove your point but it could explain why water baptism is not needed for salvation and explain the number verses that contradict you premise of the necessity of water baptism for salvation; specifically verses saying we are not saved by works which contradicts your proposal of salvation by faith + works.
Aside: I think your beliefs include many, many more works than merely baptism.

Baptism is not a work of the law.

Convenient. Fallacy of non-equivalency ...
The law is any commend God gives us. God said to be baptized.

In case you hadn't noticed it, the thief on the cross was before Jesus instituted baptism with water for salvation.

Valid point. Paul then on the road to Damascus was saved before being baptized.

... and the whole book of John, the function of which was to outline the means to salvation (John 20:30-31) and yet, somehow, John fails to mention the need to be water baptized. Not likely.

... and the issue of what constitutes water baptism ... does one have to be sprinkled or wholly submerged to be saved? Do I do both to be safe as if I do the wrong one I am not saved

... and the poor guy that has salvific faith and on the way to get water baptized gets hit by a car and killed. That would suck.

... and God saying we aren't to boast yet you method of salvation allows us to brag upon what we did to be saved ... granted, a small amount relatively... but still reason to point to the wonders of me and my part in God's selection of me and what I did to save myself that others did not do. PRAISE ME.

Don't be so obtuse. I gave you very valid reasons why Cornelius is a very special case.

Don't be absurd. I grant Cornelius is a very special case. Then I pointed out that we all are special cases; you're just setting up a non sequitur. Where in scripture does it say the rules changed for Cornelius because it is a "very special case". You're making up theology to cover your biblical contradictions.

Ephesians 2:9 not as a result of [your] works [nor your attempts to keep the Law], so that no one will [be able to] boast or take credit in any way [for his salvation].
Your version
Ephesians 2:9 not as a result of [your] works [except water baptism plus other works on your list], so that no one will [be able to] boast or take [much] credit in any way [for his salvation].

Where does Acts 10 say the Holy Spirit was indwelling in Cornelius.
Answer - it doesn't.

I showed you. I'll do it again by highlighting comments in blue. Notice the bold high lighting I did showing Cornelius had the indwelling Spirit, 3 times no less.
Acts 10:44 While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word [the Holy Spirit only indwells in the saved]. 45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. 46 For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God [further evidence of salvation]. Then Peter declared, 47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people [evidence that these new believers were not baptized; yet they were saved], who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days. Notice in these verses they had already received the Holy Spirit before they were baptized in water.

It says the the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. That's not the same thing.

... another convenient exegesis ...
.... it says FELL ON and POURED OUT and RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT .... LOL ... I think your bias has the better of you.
... I wonder if Cornelius was sprinkled or immersed ... get it wrong and you are in hell according to those supporting salvation by water baptism (works).

 

[Fastfredy0]

The ole thief on the cross does not apply cos the new covenant was not in effect and baptism was not required heb 9:16

Valid point.
Paul then on the road to Damascus was saved before being baptized.
... and the whole book of John, the function of which was to outline the means to salvation (John 20:30-31) and yet, somehow, John fails to mention the need to be water baptized. Not likely.
... and the issue of what constitutes water baptism ... does one have to be sprinkled or wholly submerged to be saved? Do I do both to be safe as if I do the wrong one I am not saved
... and the poor guy that has salvific faith and on the way to get water baptized gets hit by a car and killed. That would suck.
... and God saying we aren't to boast yet you method of salvation allows us to brag upon what we did to be saved ... granted, a small amount relatively... but still reason to point to the wonders of me and my part in God's selection of me and what I did to save myself that others did not do. PRAISE ME.