Faith alone questions

[donadams]

The verse does not directly address salvation which is the put of the theme of this thread IMO.
Aside: I am assuming the theme is: One must have FAITH and perform certain work(s) to cause one to be saved.

Your verse does not address the cause(s) of salvation. Your bias (we all have bias') has you associating the verse with salvation. The context is the importance of LOVE. I think we both agree that one of the causes of salvation is Faith.
I would say Faith Alone not only is the cause of salvation, but also the cause of love.
You would say Faith and charity are the causes of salvation.
The verse is not clear.
I know of no verse saying the cause/partial cause of salvation is charity.



How can one have Faith and not love Christ? Love (to favor) is part of faith. Believing in Christ means you trust in Him and love Him and obey him.


Nothing here that I can see about performing work(s) in order to be saved.

These verses oppose “faith alone”

What works did the thief on the cross perform to be saved? After he believed did they take him off the cross for an hour or so to be baptized so complete his salvation?

The thief does not apply the new covenant not in effect until the death of the savior heb 9:16

You need to explain

• Romans 3:28; Romans 4:5; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8-9
• you need to use verse(s) that explicitly state the works that cause salvation other than faith. Faith is the CAUSE of works so there can be countless verses associating various works to faith.

I grant that some verses imply Water Baptism is needed to be saved, but there are many verses that contradict this premise. One either has to explain why Water Baptism is not a cause of salvation (which I did) or explain the verses that say we are not saves by works. Also explain the contradiction of doing works and verses saying we have nothing to boast about, the contradiction that salvation is a gift and yet one must do works, the contradiction that we are saved by grace (unmerited favor) and yet by the addition of works (merited favor).

Paul opposes works alone not faith and works
And we are united to Christ and his merits and grace that makes our actions meritorious

1. Hebrews 6:12
   That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. Patience is a virtue (work)
2. Revelation 2:19
   I know thy works, and charity, and-service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. Not “faith alone”

 

[jasonc]

Convenient explanation.

Definition of Work .... a mental or physical activity to achieve a purpose. Many people believe they must be baptized in water to be saved. If God gives an rule to follow then following it is a work. If you think it is a work that is needed for salvation Paul in Galatians says you seek salvation by another gospel and you must keep all the law.



That is a contradiction. A gift is something you don't earn.
Definition of gift: Something that is bestowed voluntarily and without compensation.

Gee, using your definition of gift I could say my employer gave me a gift every second Friday of the month.

Eph. 2:8 For it is by grace [God’s remarkable compassion and favor drawing you to Christ] that you have been saved [actually delivered from judgment and given eternal life] through faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [not through your own effort], but it is the [undeserved, gracious] gift of God; 9 not as a result of [your] works [nor your attempts to keep the Law], so that no one will [be able to] boast or take credit in any way [for his salvation]. AMP



You are changing the definition of words to fit your purpose. There is not such definition of Gift being partially earned. Gift: something voluntarily transferred by one person to another without compensation https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gift
Changing the meaning of the words to make a point is a no-no



You can give me tons of examples showing people are to be obedient to gain God's favor, but not to be SAVED. If our salvation depends on our doing something then we have reason to boast and God says boasting is excluded from salvation. Eph. 2:9

It sure feels like a gift these then cometh the IRS ,wait you must give to poor us .m

 

[JLB]

“Faith alone” Questions

where does ez 36: 25:27 Say “faith alone”?

where does scripture says we have died with Christ by “faith alone”?

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

where does scripture say we are members of Christ and his church by “faith alone”?

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

where does scripture says we put on Christ by “faith alone”?

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Where does scripture say our sins are washed away by “faith alone”?

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

where does scripture say we are saved or justified by “faith alone”?

1 pet 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!

The only reference in scripture to “faith alone” is James 2:24 NOT BY “FAITH ALONE”?

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

How can you enter by your own if it must be ministered to you? Baptism is done unto you, “not do it yourself by faith alone”

Jn 3:5 born again by faith alone?

Where is “Accept Christ as your personal lord & savior” is found in scripture?

They did not go preaching this line but went immediately to the river and baptized Jn 3:22

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Eph 4:5 one baptism

Why don’t it say one teeny tiny little act of “faith alone”???

When we first believed we are saved?

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

How can salvation be nearer than when we first believed if you’re saved by believing?

1 pet 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.

How can salvation happen when we first believed if it’s the end?

If salvation is by “faith alone” then faith would be the greatest!
1 cor 13:13 charity is the greatest!

Even all faith much less “faith alone” without charity avails nothing!
1 cor 13:2

“Faith alone” unbiblical!

“Faith alone” is a heresy condemned by the authority of Christ in holy apostolic council!


We must also suffer!

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Phil 1:29 not called to believe alone but also to suffer for Christ’s sake.
Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

No where does the bible say faith alone.

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:17

The works that James is referring to is:

Not the works of the law
Not good works
Not works that earn a wage

The corresponding "work" of obedience to the word that God speaks to us, by which we receive faith.

Faith comes to us from God when we hear Him.

Now that we have faith from Him because we heard Him speak to us, we must obey what He said.

Abraham obeyed what God said to him and offerred his son Isaac on the altar.

Was not our father Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar. James 2:21

The "work" that is being referred to here is obedience: the obedience of faith.

Abraham obeyed God's voice by which he received faith.




JLB

 

[st_worm2]

Yes love those verses about faith and baptism

Hello again Don, again, Ezekiel 36:25-27 is about neither faith nor baptism, rather, God Himself tells us (in v25-27) what 'He' does/what He 'alone' must do in our hearts and minds to bring us from (spiritual) death to (spiritual) life, so that we can and will choose (then) to come to saving faith in Him and believe. IOW, these verses concern the quickening or regenerating of our hearts by God (from spiritual death to spiritual life .. e.g. Ephesians 2:1-5). They are also (as a point of interest) the verses that the Lord Jesus was referring to when He gently chided Nicodemus (as "the teacher of Israel") for not knowing what it meant to be "born again" (or literally, to be "born from above") in John 3:3-10.

That said, there seems to be the typical disconnect between Protestants and Catholics in this thread, in part do the different definitions (and lack of understanding) that we have for certain words. For instance, Protestants make a clear distinction between "justification" and "sanctification", while RC's combine the Protestant meanings of both into the word "justification" alone.

This is an important distinction to understand when we talk to one another about the relation between saving faith and our resulting works (take note of Calvin's quote in my signature line below concerning this topic).

The other problem (terminology-wise) is the lack of understanding (particularly among our RC members, it seems) about the meaning of sola fide/salvation by faith alone, and what the Reformers actually meant by it (and what Protestants mean by it today), particularly in scope. Until we come to a common understanding about these things (so that we can know/understand what each side is 'actually' saying) I believe we will continue to talk past one another for the most part.

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - here is but one Scriptural example of why Protestants believe that we are "saved" from the very moment that we come to saving faith and believe. The Greek verb tenses are particularly helpful here (in verses like this one where we learn so much from the Lord Jesus Himself about salvation and/or what we Protestants refer to as justification).

John 5​

24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, ~HAS~ eternal life, and does not come into judgment/condemnation, but has (already) passed out of death into life.”​

Take special note of the Lord's opening to v24 ("truly, truly" or "verily, verily") which tells us to pay special attention to/take careful note of everything that He is about to say.

The Greek present tense speaks of something that is true at the moment, and true in the future (in an ongoing sense) as well. IOW, those who hear and respond positively to the Gospel by believing come into possession of/are given "eternal life" from the very moment that we do so (from the very moment that we come to saving faith and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, that is).

He goes on to tell us that true "believers" will not be judged or condemned by Him at the end of the age, because we "have (already) passed from death to life" in that moment as well ("has passed", in the Greek perfect tense, speaks of present reality which has already been completed, just FYI).

 

[Iconoclast]

1 pet 3:21?

Faith and baptism:

16:16 he that believes and is baptized shall be saved
Matt 28:19 faith and baptism
Acts 2:38-39 repent and be baptized (promise of ez 36:25)
Acts 8:36-38 faith and baptism
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism
1 pet 3:21 baptism saves us

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)

Sealed in the ark, sealed in the church the ark of salvation by God thru baptism!

Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!

“Faith alone” accomplishes nothing!
1 cor 13:2 even all faith (alone) without charity avails NOTHING!!!

Faith and baptism!

Scripture says none of the things about “Faith alone”!

Only James 2:24 a man is justified by works and not by “faith alone”

2 Peter 1:11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

The Christian sacrament of baptism is the Initiation into the new covenant and must be ministered to you by the apostles!

Jn.3:5 was not speaking of Christian water baptism.

 

[donadams]

Valid point.
Paul then on the road to Damascus was saved before being baptized.
... and the whole book of John, the function of which was to outline the means to salvation (John 20:30-31) and yet, somehow, John fails to mention the need to be water baptized. Not likely.
... and the issue of what constitutes water baptism ... does one have to be sprinkled or wholly submerged to be saved? Do I do both to be safe as if I do the wrong one I am not saved
... and the poor guy that has salvific faith and on the way to get water baptized gets hit by a car and killed. That would suck.
... and God saying we aren't to boast yet you method of salvation allows us to brag upon what we did to be saved ... granted, a small amount relatively... but still reason to point to the wonders of me and my part in God's selection of me and what I did to save myself that others did not do. PRAISE ME.

No not saved Matt 24:13
Heb 12:1-15
In grace by faith and baptism acts 8:16-17 but can fall from grace
Gal 5:4
Luke 13:9
And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

Jn -5:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Thanks

 

[donadams]

It sure feels like a gift these then cometh the IRS ,wait you must give to poor us .m

Religion says do!

Christianity says done!

There is nothing we can do???
Really?


Does the will of God:
Those who hear the Word of God and do it!
Ez 36:25-27
Matt 7:21
Matt 12:50
Mk 3:35
Lk 1:45
Lk 8:21
Lk 11:28
Jn 5:30
Jn7:17
Rom 12:2
Rev 17:7

Doer of the word

James 1:22-23

1 Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Keep my commandments:
Matt 28:20
Jn 14:21

Things we must do:

Matt 5:8
Matt 7:14 narrow road leads to life
Jn 15:1-5 abide in Him
Lk 1:4 be instructed
Acts 2:38 acts 8:36-38 Matt 28:19 Jn 3:5 Jn 3:22 ez 36:25 baptism
2 thes 1:8 obedience


Must repent and do penance
Matt 3:2
Matt 3:8
Matt 4:17
Matt 9:13
Matt 16:24
Acts 2:38
Acts 3:19

Must believe and continue in a state of believing:
Jn3:16

Receive Christ: Jn 1:12
Put on Christ: gal 3:27

Endure to the end:
Matt 24:13
Mark 13:13
Rev 2:26
Heb 3:14
Heb 6:11
Romans 11:22
Colossians 1:21-23
Hebrews 12:22-25
Hebrews 6:4
Hebrews 10:23-29, 35-39
Hebrews 3:4-6
1 John 2:24-25
2 John 8-9
Galatians 5:2-4
2 Timothy 2:11-13


1 pet 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

The end (not the beginning) of faith is salvation!

 

[donadams]

No where does the bible say faith alone.

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:17

The works that James is referring to is:

Not the works of the law
Not good works
Not works that earn a wage

The corresponding "work" of obedience to the word that God speaks to us, by which we receive faith.

Faith comes to us from God when we hear Him.

Now that we have faith from Him because we heard Him speak to us, we must obey what He said.

Abraham obeyed what God said to him and offerred his son Isaac on the altar.

Was not our father Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar. James 2:21

The "work" that is being referred to here is obedience: the obedience of faith.

Abraham obeyed God's voice by which he received faith.




JLB

What about prayer, fasting, alms, suffering, practicing virtue especially charity “love of God”?

1 Peter 4:8
And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

1 Corinthians 16:22
If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.

 

[jasonc]

Religion says do!

Christianity says done!

There is nothing we can do???
Really?


Does the will of God:
Those who hear the Word of God and do it!
Ez 36:25-27
Matt 7:21
Matt 12:50
Mk 3:35
Lk 1:45
Lk 8:21
Lk 11:28
Jn 5:30
Jn7:17
Rom 12:2
Rev 17:7

Doer of the word

James 1:22-23

1 Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Keep my commandments:
Matt 28:20
Jn 14:21

Things we must do:

Matt 5:8
Matt 7:14 narrow road leads to life
Jn 15:1-5 abide in Him
Lk 1:4 be instructed
Acts 2:38 acts 8:36-38 Matt 28:19 Jn 3:5 Jn 3:22 ez 36:25 baptism
2 thes 1:8 obedience


Must repent and do penance
Matt 3:2
Matt 3:8
Matt 4:17
Matt 9:13
Matt 16:24
Acts 2:38
Acts 3:19

Must believe and continue in a state of believing:
Jn3:16

Receive Christ: Jn 1:12
Put on Christ: gal 3:27

Endure to the end:
Matt 24:13
Mark 13:13
Rev 2:26
Heb 3:14
Heb 6:11
Romans 11:22
Colossians 1:21-23
Hebrews 12:22-25
Hebrews 6:4
Hebrews 10:23-29, 35-39
Hebrews 3:4-6
1 John 2:24-25
2 John 8-9
Galatians 5:2-4
2 Timothy 2:11-13


1 pet 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

The end (not the beginning) of faith is salvation!

Religion says do!

Christianity says done!

There is nothing we can do???
Really?


Does the will of God:
Those who hear the Word of God and do it!
Ez 36:25-27
Matt 7:21
Matt 12:50
Mk 3:35
Lk 1:45
Lk 8:21
Lk 11:28
Jn 5:30
Jn7:17
Rom 12:2
Rev 17:7

Doer of the word

James 1:22-23

1 Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Keep my commandments:
Matt 28:20
Jn 14:21

Things we must do:

Matt 5:8
Matt 7:14 narrow road leads to life
Jn 15:1-5 abide in Him
Lk 1:4 be instructed
Acts 2:38 acts 8:36-38 Matt 28:19 Jn 3:5 Jn 3:22 ez 36:25 baptism
2 thes 1:8 obedience


Must repent and do penance
Matt 3:2
Matt 3:8
Matt 4:17
Matt 9:13
Matt 16:24
Acts 2:38
Acts 3:19

Must believe and continue in a state of believing:
Jn3:16

Receive Christ: Jn 1:12
Put on Christ: gal 3:27

Endure to the end:
Matt 24:13
Mark 13:13
Rev 2:26
Heb 3:14
Heb 6:11
Romans 11:22
Colossians 1:21-23
Hebrews 12:22-25
Hebrews 6:4
Hebrews 10:23-29, 35-39
Hebrews 3:4-6
1 John 2:24-25
2 John 8-9
Galatians 5:2-4
2 Timothy 2:11-13


1 pet 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

The end (not the beginning) of faith is salvation!

You really don't get out of those parishes much .
You say that only Mary is able ,getting pregnant isn't listed as a work of holiness ,so what work if her own redemption did she do to keep her soul ?
Before God entered her womb ?


With Sola fide it's by faith we are saved not of works . It doesn't mean it ignore the part of to change ones nature by prayer and seeking out what God sees as a sin.only that you won't die so Holy God has to accept you because became that Holy .no He covered your sins in the blood and it's Christ blood that he sees .

Using your logic we should believe in limbo ,purgatory and also the local parishes indulgence that goes on

 

[donadams]

Hello again Don, again, Ezekiel 36:25-27 is about neither faith nor baptism, rather, God Himself tells us (in v25-27) what 'He' does/what He 'alone' must do in our hearts and minds to bring us from (spiritual) death to (spiritual) life, so that we can and will choose (then) to come to saving faith in Him and believe. IOW, these verses concern the quickening or regenerating of our hearts by God (from spiritual death to spiritual life .. e.g. Ephesians 2:1-5). They are also (as a point of interest) the verses that the Lord Jesus was referring to when He gently chided Nicodemus (as "the teacher of Israel") for not knowing what it meant to be "born again" (or literally, to be "born from above") in John 3:3-10.

That said, there seems to be the typical disconnect between Protestants and Catholics in this thread, in part do the different definitions (and lack of understanding) that we have for certain words. For instance, Protestants make a clear distinction between "justification" and "sanctification", while RC's combine the Protestant meanings of both into the word "justification" alone.

This is an important distinction to understand when we talk to one another about the relation between saving faith and our resulting works (take note of Calvin's quote in my signature line below concerning this topic).

The other problem (terminology-wise) is the lack of understanding (particularly among our RC members, it seems) about the meaning of sola fide/salvation by faith alone, and what the Reformers actually meant by it (and what Protestants mean by it today), particularly in scope. Until we come to a common understanding about these things (so that we can know/understand what each side is 'actually' saying) I believe we will continue to talk past one another for the most part.

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - here is but one Scriptural example of why Protestants believe that we are "saved" from the very moment that we come to saving faith and believe. The Greek verb tenses are particularly helpful here (in verses like this one where we learn so much from the Lord Jesus Himself about salvation and/or what we Protestants refer to as justification).

John 5​

24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, ~HAS~ eternal life, and does not come into judgment/condemnation, but has (already) passed out of death into life.”​

Take special note of the Lord's opening to v24 ("truly, truly" or "verily, verily") which tells us to pay special attention to/take careful note of everything that He is about to say.

The Greek present tense speaks of something that is true at the moment, and true in the future (in an ongoing sense) as well. IOW, those who hear and respond positively to the Gospel by believing come into possession of/are given "eternal life" from the very moment that we do so (from the very moment that we come to saving faith and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, that is).

He goes on to tell us that true "believers" will not be judged or condemned by Him at the end of the age, because we "have (already) passed from death to life" in that moment as well ("has passed", in the Greek perfect tense, speaks of present reality which has already been completed, just FYI).

Thank you sir
And I appreciate your virtuous tone
You right about language
I’ll post my explanation below
These are large subjects so please one thing at a time

“We have eternal life”
Yes but not salvation Matt 24:13
Thru faith and baptism we are in Christ in union with him and his new covenant having the grace of God
Thanks

 

[donadams]

Redemption, Justification, Sanctification, and Salvation!

Redemption: 100 percent the work of God, thru the life, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ! All mankind are redeemed in Christ! Eph 2
Galatians 2:16 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law...
Christ alone accomplished the redemption of mankind apart from any works on our part!

(Redemption is not Salvation)
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


Justification: our acceptance of redemption thru faith and baptism! Become a disciple and member of Christ and His Church! Jn 3:5 acts 2:38 Mk 16:16 He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. 1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


Sanctification: the life of grace applied to our souls in the sacraments, prayer, virtue and good works, the just living by faith, and faith working thru love! Phil 1:29 called to suffer with Christ.
All done in Christ thru His grace! Jn 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Salvation: a christian in the state if grace at the moment of death we enter into the salvation of the Lord! Mt 24:44-47 faithful servant! Jn 15:1-5 abide in me. Mt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
Heb 4:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Rom 13:11 ...for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Suffering required for glorification with Christ!

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Justification and salvation are not the same rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

 

[donadams]

Jn.3:5 was not speaking of Christian water baptism.

Then please explain verse 3:22

 

[JLB]

What about prayer, fasting, alms, suffering, practicing virtue especially charity “love of God”?

1 Peter 4:8
And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

1 Corinthians 16:22
If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.

All good things.

However I am discussing the principle of faith.

 

[donadams]

You really don't get out of those parishes much .

Either you parish or you perish! Lol!

You say that only Mary is able ,getting pregnant isn't listed as a work of holiness ,so what work if her own redemption did she do to keep her soul ?
Before God entered her womb ?

No I never said Mary is immaculate purity and sinless by nature but by God’s will and grace Lk 1:49

With Sola fide it's by faith we are saved not of works . It doesn't mean it ignore the part of to change ones nature by prayer and seeking out what God sees as a sin.only that you won't die so Holy God has to accept you because became that Holy .no He covered your sins in the blood and it's Christ blood that he sees .

Using your logic we should believe in limbo ,purgatory and also the local parishes indulgence that goes on

Sure
Faith and works (prayer, fasting, alms, sacrifice suffering, sacraments, practice of virtues Paul is opposed to works alone

 

[jasonc]

Either you parish or you perish! Lol!


No I never said Mary is immaculate purity and sinless by nature but by God’s will and grace Lk 1:49


Sure
Faith and works (prayer, fasting, alms, sacrifice suffering, sacraments, practice of virtues Paul is opposed to works alone

Sure ,I can buy private land own houses and not rent them to the poor and seal of a public road and homes rot local parish history I explore I also have cut the parish water off for non payment .

They buy homes and do nothing . Sure protestants do that but the amount of money that the local diocese has to do that is a concern .I wouldn't care if they rented them to the less fortunate but five or more homes have no water on and also did have power.they simply let them sit .

Outside of the liberty issue ,I find that bothersome.

Mary was born sinless in the bible ?

She would desire a man who was a sinner ,Joseph and desire him to be over her and despite his failings ?

Seems to me celebacy would be her nature after seeing how her dad and other men acted . The nature of all sin would be repulsive to her .

I don't buy ,as well for all have sinned .

Jesus is the only person specifically mentioned without sin.


Mary died .yet it says where there is no sin there is no death .

Mary died . Jesus died because sin was placed upon him .what slew Mary ?

 

[st_worm2]

Redemption, Justification, Sanctification, and Salvation!

Redemption: 100 percent the work of God, thru the life, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ! All mankind are redeemed in Christ! Eph 2
Galatians 2:16 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law...
Christ alone accomplished the redemption of mankind apart from any works on our part!

(Redemption is not Salvation)
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


Justification: our acceptance of redemption thru faith and baptism! Become a disciple and member of Christ and His Church! Jn 3:5 acts 2:38 Mk 16:16 He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. 1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


Sanctification: the life of grace applied to our souls in the sacraments, prayer, virtue and good works, the just living by faith, and faith working thru love! Phil 1:29 called to suffer with Christ.
All done in Christ thru His grace! Jn 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Salvation: a christian in the state if grace at the moment of death we enter into the salvation of the Lord! Mt 24:44-47 faithful servant! Jn 15:1-5 abide in me. Mt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
Heb 4:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Rom 13:11 ...for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Suffering required for glorification with Christ!

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Justification and salvation are not the same rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Hello again Don, thank you for taking time to do that for us While this should give us a basis to understand each other better in this thread, I would like to ask you a question or two about what you wrote, and I would also like to point out how I understand/define those words (which is similar to your definitions in some cases, and radically different in others).

I will have to do so when I return this evening however (Dv).

God bless you!!

--David

 

[donadams]

All good things.

However I am discussing the principle of faith.

Do you have to choose to believe?
Do you have to choose to continue believing until death?
“Volition”

 

[donadams]

Sure ,I can buy private land own houses and not rent them to the poor and seal of a public road and homes rot local parish history I explore I also have cut the parish water off for non payment .

They buy homes and do nothing . Sure protestants do that but the amount of money that the local diocese has to do that is a concern .I wouldn't care if they rented them to the less fortunate but five or more homes have no water on and also did have power.they simply let them sit .

Outside of the liberty issue ,I find that bothersome.

I’m not familiar with these concerns

Mary was born sinless in the bible ?

In the first moment of her creation by God she was immaculate

She would desire a man who was a sinner ,Joseph and desire him to be over her and despite his failings ?

Seems to me celebacy would be her nature after seeing how her dad and other men acted . The nature of all sin would be repulsive to her .

God provided a husband for her but they never had sexual relations

I don't buy ,as well for all have sinned .

Jesus is the only person specifically mentioned without sin.

Rom 3:23 refers to original sin

Mary died .yet it says where there is no sin there is no death .

Mary died . Jesus died because sin was placed upon him .what slew Mary ?

Mary chose to die to resemble her son

Bible proves that Mary most holy, ever virgin mother of God & mother of our salvation is not a sinner!

Lk 1:28 Hail, Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou among women.

How can God fill a sinner with grace, and remain a sinner?
Hail Mary full of grace!

How can the Lord be with a sinner?
The lord is with thee!

How can sinner be blessed!
Blessed art thou, and all generations shall call me blessed!

Lk 1: 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

How can a sinner be the mother of God?

Lk 1: 45 And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.

How could sinner be faithful?

Lk 1: 46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,

How could a sinner magnify the Lord?

Lk 1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

How could sinner be humble?

Lk 1:49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.

How could sinner be the immaculate conception and the have the Holy Spirit accomplish the Miraculous conception of Jesus in Her?

Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

How could sinner be a perpetual Virgin bringing forth the savior of the world?

Jn 2 how could Christ obey a sinner and perform a miracle in which his disciples believed in him?

Jn 19:27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

How could sinner be our spiritual mother?

Lk 2:30 I have seen my salvation!

How could a sinner be the mother of our salvation?

 

[donadams]

Hello again Don, thank you for taking time to do that for us While this should give us a basis to understand each other better in this thread, I would like to ask you a question or two about what you wrote, and I would also like to point out how I understand/define those words (which is similar to your definitions in some cases, and radically different in others).

I will have to do so when I return this evening however (Dv).

God bless you!!

--David

Ok

 

[jasonc]

I’m not familiar with these concerns

In the first moment of her creation by God she was immaculate

God provided a husband for her but they never had sexual relations

Rom 3:23 refers to original sin

Mary chose to die to resemble her son

Bible proves that Mary most holy, ever virgin mother of God & mother of our salvation is not a sinner!

Lk 1:28 Hail, Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou among women.

How can God fill a sinner with grace, and remain a sinner?
Hail Mary full of grace!

How can the Lord be with a sinner?
The lord is with thee!

How can sinner be blessed!
Blessed art thou, and all generations shall call me blessed!

Lk 1: 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

How can a sinner be the mother of God?

Lk 1: 45 And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.

How could sinner be faithful?

Lk 1: 46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,

How could a sinner magnify the Lord?

Lk 1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

How could sinner be humble?

Lk 1:49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.

How could sinner be the immaculate conception and the have the Holy Spirit accomplish the Miraculous conception of Jesus in Her?

Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

How could sinner be a perpetual Virgin bringing forth the savior of the world?

Jn 2 how could Christ obey a sinner and perform a miracle in which his disciples believed in him?

Jn 19:27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

How could sinner be our spiritual mother?

Lk 2:30 I have seen my salvation!

How could a sinner be the mother of our salvation?

So mary was simply biological not actually related to her parents .

Her mother nor dad aren't her parents ,didn't teach her.