Faith alone questions

[Randy]

Savior and Redeemer of the world
Lk 2:11
Matt 2:19
Jn 1:29
Jn 3:16
Acts 1;8
Thanks

In Christ is no sin. From generation to generation. Apart from Him a person's guilt remains. Therefore, His redemption is received and does not dwell with all though it may be offered to all through the generations.

 

[Randy]

Overseers are an apostle

Acts 20
Paul is speaking about himself and he is an apostle

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Jn 21:17 feed my sheep:

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.


Heb 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, (apostles) who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, (apostles) and submit yourselves: for they care for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

1 Tim 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you

1 John 2
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

That makes Paul and John spiritual fathers, pastors of our souls!

Thanks

I view this as leadership of a local church body.

Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full[a] respect. 5 (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7 He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.

 

[donadams]

Jethro Bodine, Randy, wondering, donadams, et al, I've been looking into the topic of apostolic succession again (thanks to this thread ), and I came across a short article about it yesterday (at www.gotquestions.org). The article is so well-written that I thought that I'd come back here and post an excerpt from it for you. Here it is.

Nowhere in the New Testament are any of the twelve apostles recorded as passing on their apostolic authority to successors. Nowhere do any of the apostles predict that they will pass on their apostolic authority. No, Jesus ordained the apostles to build the foundation of the church (Ephesians 2:20). What is the foundation of the church that the apostles built? The New Testament – the record of the deeds and teachings of the apostles. The church does not need apostolic successors. The church needs the teachings of the apostles accurately recorded and preserved. And that is exactly what God has provided in His Word (Ephesians 1:13; Colossians 1:5; 2 Timothy 2:15; 4:2).​

​

In short, apostolic succession is not biblical. The concept of apostolic succession is never found in Scripture. What is found in Scripture is that the true church will teach what the Scriptures teach and will compare all doctrines and practices to Scripture in order to determine what is true and right. ​

​

The Roman Catholic Church claims that a lack of ongoing apostolic authority results in doctrinal confusion and chaos. It is an unfortunate truth (that the apostles acknowledged) that false teachers would arise (2 Peter 2:1). Admittedly, the lack of “supreme authority” among non-Catholic churches results in many different interpretations of the Bible. However, these differences in interpretation are not the result of Scripture being unclear. Rather, they are the result of even non-Catholic Christians carrying on the Catholic tradition of interpreting Scripture in accordance with their own traditions. If Scripture is studied in its entirety and in its proper context, the truth can be easily determined. Doctrinal differences and denominational conflicts are a result of some Christians refusing to agree with what Scripture says – not a result of there being no “supreme authority” to interpret Scripture.​

​

Alignment with scriptural teaching, not apostolic succession, is the determining factor of the trueness of a church. What is mentioned in Scripture is the idea that the Word of God was to be the guide that the church was to follow (Acts 20:32). It is Scripture that was to be the infallible measuring stick for teaching and practice (2 Timothy 3:16-17). It is the Scriptures that teachings are to be compared to (Acts 17:10-12). Apostolic authority was passed on through the writings of the apostles, not through apostolic succession.​

I have several comments that I'd like to make about the above, but I will have to do so later when I return (Dv).

--David

It is His church he is Christ the king

Christ and His church are one: Acts 9:4 mystical communion: eph 5:32

To accept the church and her doctrine (sacred deposit of faith eph 4:5 Jude 1:3) is to accept Christ who established the church and reveled the truth.

To reject the church or her doctrine “sacred deposit of faith” is to reject Christ who established the church and reveled the truth. (Including God)

It would be a strange anarchy to accept the king, but reject the kingdom and truth that the king established and revealed, but they prove their infidelity and disobedience to the king by rejecting His kingdom and doctrine.

But then again they only say they love and obey the king of glory!

I in no way believe that Christ is the teacher of the Catholic church.

 

[donadams]

Jethro Bodine, Randy, wondering, donadams, et al, I've been looking into the topic of apostolic succession again (thanks to this thread ), and I came across a short article about it yesterday (at www.gotquestions.org). The article is so well-written that I thought that I'd come back here and post an excerpt from it for you. Here it is.

Nowhere in the New Testament are any of the twelve apostles recorded as passing on their apostolic authority to successors. Nowhere do any of the apostles predict that they will pass on their apostolic authority. No, Jesus ordained the apostles to build the foundation of the church (Ephesians 2:20). What is the foundation of the church that the apostles built? The New Testament – the record of the deeds and teachings of the apostles. The church does not need apostolic successors. The church needs the teachings of the apostles accurately recorded and preserved. And that is exactly what God has provided in His Word (Ephesians 1:13; Colossians 1:5; 2 Timothy 2:15; 4:2).​

​

In short, apostolic succession is not biblical. The concept of apostolic succession is never found in Scripture. What is found in Scripture is that the true church will teach what the Scriptures teach and will compare all doctrines and practices to Scripture in order to determine what is true and right. ​

​

The Roman Catholic Church claims that a lack of ongoing apostolic authority results in doctrinal confusion and chaos. It is an unfortunate truth (that the apostles acknowledged) that false teachers would arise (2 Peter 2:1). Admittedly, the lack of “supreme authority” among non-Catholic churches results in many different interpretations of the Bible. However, these differences in interpretation are not the result of Scripture being unclear. Rather, they are the result of even non-Catholic Christians carrying on the Catholic tradition of interpreting Scripture in accordance with their own traditions. If Scripture is studied in its entirety and in its proper context, the truth can be easily determined. Doctrinal differences and denominational conflicts are a result of some Christians refusing to agree with what Scripture says – not a result of there being no “supreme authority” to interpret Scripture.​

​

Alignment with scriptural teaching, not apostolic succession, is the determining factor of the trueness of a church. What is mentioned in Scripture is the idea that the Word of God was to be the guide that the church was to follow (Acts 20:32). It is Scripture that was to be the infallible measuring stick for teaching and practice (2 Timothy 3:16-17). It is the Scriptures that teachings are to be compared to (Acts 17:10-12). Apostolic authority was passed on through the writings of the apostles, not through apostolic succession.​

I have several comments that I'd like to make about the above, but I will have to do so later when I return (Dv).

--David

Apostolic succession!

Successors of Jesus Christ!

Matt 28:19-20

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

So there must be successors to the apostles, the USA was not a nation for 1800 years after the apostles, yet He says teach all nations!

And behold I am with you (the apostles) to the end of the world!

Acts 1:8 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

The apostles must have successors!

Jesus already prepares His apostles to continue His mission with His power (binding and loosing) and with His authority (keys) matt 16:18 matt 18:18

Same mission, power, and authority Jn 20:21-23

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

John 4:1 when therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John...
Jn 4:2 Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples

Here we see Jesus delegating to His successors, Peter and the apostles!

Jn 15:5 apart from me you can do nothing

There can be no unity of the spirit without obedience to the faith! Rom 1:5 eph 4:3

Matt 28 I am with you (the apostles)

The successors of Moses sit in the seat of Moses Matt 23:1
Having the authority of the keys and power to bind and loose, and Jesus commands them to be obeyed!

This authority taken from them and given to the new covenant church!
Matt 21:43 Matt 16:18-19 Matt 28:19 Jn 20:21

And they must be obeyed!

The papacy based on Matt 16:18 and Isa 22:21-22

Matt 16:18-19
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Isa 22:21-22
21 And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.

22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

Behold I am with you (the apostles) until the end of the world,so the successors of the apostles must remain until the end of the world) matt 28:19

(None of the so called reformers were apostles) (no man has authority to start a church)

 

[donadams]

Successors of Moses!

Matt 23 why does Jesus say to obey the successors of Moses?

The successors of Moses sit in the chair of Moses having the authority of the keys and the power to bind and loose Matt 23 and Jesus commanded them to be obeyed! Then the kingdom was taken from them matt 21:43 and given to Peter, Matt 16:18 the apostles, Matt 18:18 and their successors with the authority of the keys and the power to bind and lose!

Jesus said to obey the authority of the successors of Moses mt 23 authority of the keys and power to bind and loose and this power and authority was taken from them matt and given by Christ to Peter, the apostles and their successors, mt 16:18 18:18 this same authority and power must be obeyed!

mt 28:18-20 all authority is given to Peter, the apostles, and their successors requiring obedience, rom 1:5 obedience to the faith!
And Jesus say to Peter, the apostles, and their successors: behold I am with you even until the end of the world!!!
So the apostles have to remain until the end! Revelation 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and Priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Reign with kingdom authority (keys) power (bind loose) matt 16:18
The successors of Peter and the apostles have a valid jurisdictional authority (keys) and power (bind and loose) by Jesus Christ!

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

apostolic succession!

explicit and implicit in scripture

Judas was an apostle
Acts 1:17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.

acts 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

Matthias succeeded him as apostle

acts 1: 26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

now if it applies to judas how much more to Peter and the other apostles

Matt 28:19-20
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Jesus is with His church and His apostles until the end! So the apostles must remain until the end governing the church administering the kingdom

Mt 16:18 Peter received the keys of the kingdom: (jurisdictional authority of the universal church) and the power to bind and loose:

Lk 22:32
Jesus prays for Peter:

Jn 21:17
Peter commanded to Feed my sheep:

Isa 22 21-22 prime minister called father!
Holding the keys of the kingdom under the king Lk 1:32-33 in the line of david!
Matt 16:18


apostolic succession!

explicit and implicit in scripture

Judas was an apostle
Acts 1:17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.

acts 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

Matthias succeeded him as apostle

acts 1: 26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

now if it applies to judas how much more to Peter and the other apostles

Matt 28:19-20
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Jesus is with His church and His apostles until the end! So the apostles must remain until the end governing the church administering the kingdom

Mt 16:18 Peter received the keys of the kingdom: (jurisdictional authority of the universal church) and the power to bind and loose:

Lk 22:32
Jesus prays for Peter:

Jn 21:17
Peter commanded to Feed my sheep:

Isa 22 21-22 prime minister called father!
Holding the keys of the kingdom under the king Lk 1:32-33 in the line of david!
Matt 16:18


Church fathers and doctors witnesses of Christ! Acts 1:8

CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE
“[T]he Church is one, and as she is one, cannot be both within and without. For if she is with [the heretic] Novatian, she was not with [Pope] Cornelius. But if she was with Cornelius, who succeeded the bishop [of Rome], Fabian, by lawful ordination, and whom, beside the honor of the priesthood the Lord glorified also with martyrdom, Novatian is not in the Church; nor can he be reckoned as a bishop, who, succeeding to no one, and despising the evangelical and apostolic tradition, sprang from himself. For he who has not been ordained in the Church can neither have nor hold to the Church in any way” (Letters 69[75]:3 [A.D. 253]).
JEROME
“Far be it from me to speak adversely of any of these clergy who, in succession from the apostles, confect by their sacred word the Body of Christ and through whose efforts also it is that we are Christians” (Letters 14:8 [A.D. 396]).
AUGUSTINE
“[T]here are many other things which most properly can keep me in [the Catholic Church’s] bosom. The unanimity of peoples and nations keeps me here. Her authority, inaugurated in miracles, nourished by hope, augmented by love, and confirmed by her age, keeps me here. The succession of priests, from the very see of the apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after his resurrection, gave the charge of feeding his sheep [John 21:15–17], up to the present episcopate, keeps me here. And last, the very name Catholic, which, not without reason, belongs to this Church alone, in the face of so many heretics, so much so that, although all heretics want to be called ‘Catholic,’ when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets, none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house” (Against the Letter of Mani Called “The Foundation” 4:5 [A.D. 397]).

In short “got questions” ain’t biblical!
Thanks

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The apostles send more apostles:
Acceptance of these apostles is acceptance of the apostles who sent them, and Christ, and God!

You can argue all day long for apostolic succession. We don't believe the Catholic church constitutes any form of apostolic succession whatsoever. That's the issue.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It is His church he is Christ the king

Christ and His church are one: Acts 9:4 mystical communion: eph 5:32

The Catholic church is not that church.

You can think so if you want. But we do not.

To accept the church and her doctrine (sacred deposit of faith eph 4:5 Jude 1:3) is to accept Christ who established the church and reveled the truth.

To reject the church or her doctrine “sacred deposit of faith” is to reject Christ who established the church and reveled the truth. (Including God)

It would be a strange anarchy to accept the king, but reject the kingdom and truth that the king established and revealed, but they prove their infidelity and disobedience to the king by rejecting His kingdom and doctrine.

We are not afraid of the Catholic church that says if you reject it you are rejecting Christ. That threat is for Catholics, not us non-Catholics who know better.

 

[st_worm2]

Sorry David
But gotquestions is not the place to go for church history.

Hello Wondering Church history I'm not sure what you are referring to by that, as what I posted from the GotQuestions website concerned the Bible, theology and doctrine, not church history, save the following sentence, I suppose:

"The Roman Catholic Church claims that a lack of ongoing apostolic authority results in doctrinal confusion and chaos."​

That's the only sentence about "church history" in my excerpt (unless I am missing something ). Do you find it to be an inaccurate statement for some reason? If so, please let me know why (as I would like to know too).

Thanks! (and thanks for giving me the opportunity to use the "Thinking....." emoticon again too I like that one).

God bless you!!

--David

 

[st_worm2]

Sorry for the slow replies everyone. I've been unable to post here for the last day or so, at first, because the forum seemed to be down, and then, when it was working again, because I was suddenly without sufficient privileges to continue posting on this board. Free helped me get the problem fixed however, and I'm back, so thank you again for your help with that Free

Gotta go again, but I hope to return and finish my replies later this evening (Dv).

--David

 

[donadams]

Yes. It's not baptism alone either is it? Babies can't be saved in that manner. I'm not against baptism. I don't think Jesus is compelled/forced to give the Spirit at baptism neither do I believe He can't give the Spirit apart from baptism. "Repent, faith, pledging a clear conscience to God, all also go along with the believer with baptism. Jesus is looking at the heart of those being baptized. He knows those who love and obey Him. Those who really are His disciples.

Jesus instituted the sacraments for salvation of all men
why would something be required if it ain’t possible?
Repent and be baptized acts 2;38
Infants have no sin so no repentance is required
But baptism is required to enter the kingdom Jn 3:5
And infants acts 2:39
Hope this helps

 

[donadams]

I'm not sure why you would ask that after all we have discussed. The answer is yes
In John 17 Jesus prayed for His disciples who believed with certainty in Him and those who would come to believe in Him through their message. He specfically stated He was not praying for the whole world. Apart from such faith no one should be baptized.

As Phillip who was sent by God to the eunuch as that eunuch was chosen by God to see the righteous one.
When asked if He could be baptized.
And Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he replied, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”

Apart from such faith in baptism one only gets wet.

Yes faith and baptism

Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!

 

[donadams]

In Christ is no sin. From generation to generation. Apart from Him a person's guilt remains. Therefore, His redemption is received and does not dwell with all though it may be offered to all through the generations.

Jesus Christ is the redeemer of all men, and offers possibility of justification, sanctification, and finally salvation to those who believe

 

[donadams]

I think I know that better than you. No I didn't. We are not saved by baptism alone.

Faith and baptism

 

[donadams]

We know the Catholic church is not Christ's church because of it's works justification theology. Among other things.

So God only gives grace to those who have faith?
Is this correct?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes faith and baptism

Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!

God does not justify a person for doing righteous rituals and deeds. That is the works justification gospel condemned in scripture. God justifies the person who has faith in the Promise, apart from the doing of rituals and deeds, just as that was true for Abraham our example of how a person is justified by faith apart from works. But if you are sure our example of how to be justified was justified by faith and works show us what work he did to become righteous.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So God only gives grace to those who have faith?
Is this correct?

The grace of justification, yes.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jesus Christ is the redeemer of all men, and offers possibility of justification, sanctification, and finally salvation to those who believe

Your Catholic leadership ignores the verses that plainly tell us that the person who believes is saved, now, not just at the return of Christ. Are you afraid of their threats that you will be cut off from Christ if you don't agree with their (false) teachings, even though you can see for yourself that they are wrong?

 

[JLB]

David
p.s. - below is a VERY small portion of what the Lord had to say to and/or about the laity (lay believers, that is).

Can you post the scripture that teaches us about "lay believers"?



JLB

 

[Randy]

Jesus instituted the sacraments for salvation of all men
why would something be required if it ain’t possible?
Repent and be baptized acts 2;38
Infants have no sin so no repentance is required
But baptism is required to enter the kingdom Jn 3:5
And infants acts 2:39
Hope this helps

You left out "faith". Kind of hard to believe in the Lord at that age.
Are you now stating faith in Christ is not required for salvation? Just baptism?
Acts 8
Here is an example of believers who were baptized in Jesus's name and did not receive the Spirit during that baptism.
When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. 15When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

 

[donadams]

I hold them in high esteem. Pillars of the faith. I take their witness as scripture. Other than that, they are in heaven wearing their crown of righteousness. What was your point?

You right they are witnesses acts 1:8
Apostolic authority
Thanks