Christian Forums

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Christian Forum aspires to be an online community where Christians can come together in fellowship with the purpose to encourage, inspire and build up our faith in Christ Jesus. John 13:34-35
  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

    Heard of "The Gospel"? Want to know more?

    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

Faith alone?

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Staff member
Administrator
From
Houston Texas
Gender
Male
Messages
30,158
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
Dude, we don't even agree on the definition of FAITH. Exchange of ideas if futile. Sorry

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1

Yes, my definition comes from scripture. I don’t really know where yours comes from.


The obedience of faith is what we are all called to, for salvation.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26


  • the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith



And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9



  • He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.





JLB
 

Hopeful

Member
From
Arizona
Gender
Male
Messages
2,547
Joined
Aug 19, 2020
Well, you assume you are correct but give not scriptural evidence to back it up as I did and do below.
See below.
Gal. 5:2 Notice, it is I, Paul, who tells you that if you receive circumcision [as a supposed requirement of salvation], Christ will be of no benefit to you [for you will lack the faith in Christ that is necessary for salvation]. AMP
I agree with Paul
You apparently and conveniently split WORKS for SALVATION into:
You cannot do works of the law for salvation
You can do works not of the law for salvation
Galatians 2:21 I do not ignore or nullify the [gracious gift of the] grace of God [His amazing, unmerited favor], for if righteousness comes through [observing] the Law, then Christ died needlessly. [His suffering and death would have had no purpose whatsoever.]”
Paul’s insistence (1) that there is only one gospel—justification by faith alone in Christ’s work alone (Romans 3:27, Romans 3:28; Romans 4:5; Romans 10:4; Galatians 2:16a, Galatians 2:16b; Galatians 3:10, Galatians 3:11, Galatians 3:26; Philippians 3:8a, Philippians 3:8b), (2) that any other “gospel” is not the gospel, (3) that those who teach any other “gospel” stand under the anathema of God (Galatians 1:8, Galatians 1:9), and (4) that those who rely to any degree on their own works for their salvation nullify the grace of God (Romans 11:5–6), make void the cross work of Christ (Galatians 2:21; Galatians 5:2), become debtors to keep the entire law (Galatians 5:3), and in becoming such “fall from grace” (Galatians 5:4), that is, place themselves again under the curse of the law. As for the four church fathers named above—and many others like them—it is neither my nor their defenders’ place to assure the Christian world that surely God justified them by faith alone even though they themselves did not hold to a sola fide view of justification. To judge an individual’s salvation is God’s province and His alone. Therefore, I will not speculate one way or the other about their salvation. But I will say that our attitude should, with Paul, ever be: “Let God’s truth be inviolate, though every man becomes thereby a liar” (Romans 3:4). What I mean by this in the present context is that the clear teaching of the Word of God should be upheld and we should not look for reasons to avoid it, even if the alternative would force us to conclude that these fathers—and all others like them—were not saved. Robert Reymond A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith


Agreed. It is not my contention that we stop any work. Works are the RESULT of belief. If you have NO WORK, then you don't have salvific belief. I will spell it out again. I state that Salvation is by FAITH ALONE and this faith will cause one to do works (obey God). The counter to this belief is the you must have FAITH and do WORKS to be saved. There is a subtle difference. I don't perceive you comprehend the difference.
We are on the same track, until you label repentance from sin or water baptism for the remission of sins past a work of the Law.
Again, you give no scriptural evidence. I do. Thus I can state:
The "faith + works" movement is a trick of the devil designed to make men keep walking in sin, with no recourse.
Gal. 5:2 Notice, it is I, Paul, who tells you that if you receive circumcision [as a supposed requirement of salvation], Christ will be of no benefit to you [for you will lack the faith in Christ that is necessary for salvation]. AMP
Gill - his view of works for salvation rendered Christ unprofitable, made his death to be in vain, his sacrifice of no effect, and his righteousness useless: besides, Christ is a whole Savior, or none at all; to join anything with him and his righteousness, in the business of justification and salvation, is interpreted by him as a contempt and neglect of him, as laying him aside, and to such persons he is of no profit; and if he is not, what they have, and whatsoever they do, will be of no advantage; wealth and riches, yea, the whole world could it be gained, their works and righteousness, whatever show they make before men, God has declared shall not profit them; and trusting to these renders Christ unprofitable to them.
Matthew-Henry: Christ will not be the Savior of any who will not own and rely upon him as their only Savior. Let us take heed to the warnings and persuasions of the apostle to steadfastness in the doctrine and liberty of the gospel. All true Christians, being taught by the Holy Spirit, wait for eternal life, the reward of righteousness, and the object of their hope, as the gift of God by faith in Christ; and not for the sake of their own works.
Your use of scripture to offer false doctrine shows me it is of no value to show rebuttals.
Repenting permanently from sinning, and getting baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, is proof of faith...to be saved.
I don't tell lies or commit adultery so I will be saved.
If I tell lies or commit adultery, I won't be saved.
To you and your false doctrine that is "work".
Well, I rejoice in what Christ has accomplished in me so I CAN do that "work".

Faith without works is not faith: it is false hope.

Can't you separate the works of the Law, (circumcision, dietary requirements, pot washing, hand washing, Sabbath requirements, feast keeping, etc) from the responses to faith?
 
Last edited:

Fastfredy0

Supporter
From
Chandler, Tx
Gender
Male
Messages
1,348
Joined
May 4, 2020
Your use of scripture to offer false doctrine shows me it is of no value to show rebuttals.
LOL, well that is one way to avoid a response. Probably won't endear your chances of being of a debating team.

Repenting permanently from sinning, and getting baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, is proof of faith...to be saved.
Yes, I am aware that you believe you never sin.

I don't tell lies or commit adultery so I will be saved.
There are many who don't tell lies or commit adultery who are not saved. There is not scripture to support this statement. Yes, I know you don't offer scripture to back up what you say because "my use of scripture offers up false doctrine" per your first statement. Convenient dodge.

If I tell lies or commit adultery, I won't be saved.
Well, now that is WORKS salvation. I would ask for a verse, but I know you won't do that per your first sentence.

To you and your false doctrine that is "work".
Yes, it is a work. Just look at the dictionary. A work is a mental or physical activity to accomplish a purpose. You don't commit adultery (a work) to maintain your salvation (your purpose).

Faith without works is not faith: it is false hope.
Agreed. But that avoids the thesis of the thread which is FAITH ALONE.
We are saved by FAITH ALONE, but FAITH is never alone; FAITH always leads to (causes) works. Works are present or you have a dead faith (non salvific). This is the definition of the theme of the thread which is FAITH ALONE.

1) FAITH ALONE = Salvation + works (per my false doctrine) (Giggles at your pejorative of 'false') I rest on the work of CHRIST ALONE
or
2) FAITH + WORKS = Salvation (per your doctrine) .... God must be REALLY PROUD of you! You and CHRIST together formed a great team that saved you. Well done, good and faithful servant.

Gal 5:2 Notice, it is I, Paul, who tells you that if you receive circumcision [as a supposed requirement of salvation], Christ will be of no benefit to you [for you will lack the faith in Christ that is necessary for salvation].

Grace that requires works is not grace.
Sola gratia (by grace alone). ). God’s grace alone, not human goodness and effort, saves sinners. Evangelical theology does not teach people to look for salvation in sacraments, good works, or decisions for Christ.” It stands opposed to notions of human freedom, willpower, or merit. Salvation belongs to the Lord. The words of Christ resonate with us: Ye must be born again (John 3:7). This implies that mankind is deeply corrupted by sin and that we are unable to save ourselves (Romans 3:10–12; Romans 8:7–8; Ephesians 2:1–3). Salvation is not a matter of receiving instructions about how to help yourself out of a predicament; in salvation, God raises those who are dead in sin to a new life of faith, hope, and love (Ephesians 2:5–10).

Sovereign grace exalts God in blessing us and humbles us in receiving his blessing. Grace calls us (Galatians 1:15), regenerates us (Titus 3:5), justifies us (Romans 3:24), sanctifies us (Hebrews 13:20–21), and preserves us (1 Peter 1:3–5). We need grace to quicken us, to forgive us, to return us to God, to heal our broken hearts, to strengthen us in times of trouble and spiritual warfare, and to keep us to the end. Sovereign grace crushes our pride. We want to be the agents of salvation, not mere recipients. By nature, we rebel against sovereign grace, but God knows how to break our rebellion and make us friends of this grand doctrine. When God teaches sinners that they are depraved to the very core, sovereign grace becomes the most encouraging doctrine of all. From election to glorification, grace reigns in splendid isolation and locates all our life and joy in the Lord. Joel Beeke
 
From
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Messages
263
Joined
Mar 17, 2021
Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

enough said!!!
James is here showing the necessary fruits of repentance that those who are genuinely converted to Christ will show. This is not us trying to do the works in our own strength, but trusting in Christ and submitting to the leading of the Holy Spirit so that Christ can do the work in us to produce those fruit. Therefore a failure to show the good works that come from faith is more of a lack of obedience to Christ in the way He wants to lead us, than any lack of effort on our part to show God that we are good moral and religious people.
 
From
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Messages
263
Joined
Mar 17, 2021
There was definitely a work of Christ that was finished upon the Cross. But does that mean that Christ has finished his works? Jesus said in my Fathers house there are many mansions, I go and prepare a place for you. Was that work completed on the cross, or did that work only begin after the cross?
It might be a good idea to go back to the New Testament to get a clearer idea of what the Gospel of Christ is all about. What does the Scripture say about where the glorified Jesus is right now and what He is currently doing?

It is true that the work of God is continuing, but it is the work of the Holy Spirit within the genuine convert to Christ, transforming him day by day into the image of Christ as he submits himself to the leading of the Holy Spirit throughout his life.

The finished work of Christ on the Cross deals with our sin once and or all, and His resurrection deals with our victory over the grave. This enables genuine conversion to Christ and the assurance that we will be resurrected on the last day. But sanctification deals with the work of the Holy Spirit in the believer to prepare him for heaven, and that work will be completed when mortality becomes immortality when the believer rises from the grave to meet the Lord in the air.

So, we have to make a distinction between the saving finished work on the Cross, and the continuing sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit within us.
 

Fastfredy0

Supporter
From
Chandler, Tx
Gender
Male
Messages
1,348
Joined
May 4, 2020
James is here showing the necessary fruits of repentance that those who are genuinely converted to Christ will show.
Agreed.
James is often wrongly used to show one is justified to God by works. People who do so do not account for the seemingly contradictory verses of Paul that state we are not justified by works.
We know God does not contradict himself so a solution to what appears to be a contradiction is needed.

The solution is that James explains how one is justified in the eyes of man while Paul speak of how one is justified in the eyes of God. Unfortunately, it is a complex details of the explanation evades most people; most people don't figure it out. (Aside: Of course, from their point of view, I don't figure it out :) )



Is it Faith or Works?
Paul’s Passage (Gal. 3:6-18)James’ Passage (James 2:14-26)
Justification before GodJustification before humans
The root of justificationThe fruit of justification
Declaration of our righteousness in ChristDemonstration of our righteousness in Christ
Justification by faithJustification for works
Faith as producer of worksWorks as the proof of faith
Written to answer the question of how a believer is justified before GodWritten to answer the question of how a believer can demonstrate or show his justification
Works are done to earn acceptance in the days of the lawWorks are done as a result of acceptance


Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Book-of-James.html#ixzz3ZAoN13qC
 

Hopeful

Member
From
Arizona
Gender
Male
Messages
2,547
Joined
Aug 19, 2020
LOL, well that is one way to avoid a response. Probably won't endear your chances of being of a debating team.


Yes, I am aware that you believe you never sin.


There are many who don't tell lies or commit adultery who are not saved. There is not scripture to support this statement. Yes, I know you don't offer scripture to back up what you say because "my use of scripture offers up false doctrine" per your first statement. Convenient dodge.


Well, now that is WORKS salvation. I would ask for a verse, but I know you won't do that per your first sentence.


Yes, it is a work. Just look at the dictionary. A work is a mental or physical activity to accomplish a purpose. You don't commit adultery (a work) to maintain your salvation (your purpose).


Agreed. But that avoids the thesis of the thread which is FAITH ALONE.
We are saved by FAITH ALONE, but FAITH is never alone; FAITH always leads to (causes) works. Works are present or you have a dead faith (non salvific). This is the definition of the theme of the thread which is FAITH ALONE.

1) FAITH ALONE = Salvation + works (per my false doctrine) (Giggles at your pejorative of 'false') I rest on the work of CHRIST ALONE
or
2) FAITH + WORKS = Salvation (per your doctrine) .... God must be REALLY PROUD of you! You and CHRIST together formed a great team that saved you. Well done, good and faithful servant.

Gal 5:2 Notice, it is I, Paul, who tells you that if you receive circumcision [as a supposed requirement of salvation], Christ will be of no benefit to you [for you will lack the faith in Christ that is necessary for salvation].

Grace that requires works is not grace.
Sola gratia (by grace alone). ). God’s grace alone, not human goodness and effort, saves sinners. Evangelical theology does not teach people to look for salvation in sacraments, good works, or decisions for Christ.” It stands opposed to notions of human freedom, willpower, or merit. Salvation belongs to the Lord. The words of Christ resonate with us: Ye must be born again (John 3:7). This implies that mankind is deeply corrupted by sin and that we are unable to save ourselves (Romans 3:10–12; Romans 8:7–8; Ephesians 2:1–3). Salvation is not a matter of receiving instructions about how to help yourself out of a predicament; in salvation, God raises those who are dead in sin to a new life of faith, hope, and love (Ephesians 2:5–10).

Sovereign grace exalts God in blessing us and humbles us in receiving his blessing. Grace calls us (Galatians 1:15), regenerates us (Titus 3:5), justifies us (Romans 3:24), sanctifies us (Hebrews 13:20–21), and preserves us (1 Peter 1:3–5). We need grace to quicken us, to forgive us, to return us to God, to heal our broken hearts, to strengthen us in times of trouble and spiritual warfare, and to keep us to the end. Sovereign grace crushes our pride. We want to be the agents of salvation, not mere recipients. By nature, we rebel against sovereign grace, but God knows how to break our rebellion and make us friends of this grand doctrine. When God teaches sinners that they are depraved to the very core, sovereign grace becomes the most encouraging doctrine of all. From election to glorification, grace reigns in splendid isolation and locates all our life and joy in the Lord. Joel Beeke
It is written..."For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" (Heb 3:14)
To you, that is works salvation.
To me, it is a conditional command from God.
Your salvation is in your own hands, as mine is dependent on me.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JLB

Hopeful

Member
From
Arizona
Gender
Male
Messages
2,547
Joined
Aug 19, 2020
Agreed.
James is often wrongly used to show one is justified to God by works. People who do so do not account for the seemingly contradictory verses of Paul that state we are not justified by works.
We know God does not contradict himself so a solution to what appears to be a contradiction is needed.

The solution is that James explains how one is justified in the eyes of man while Paul speak of how one is justified in the eyes of God. Unfortunately, it is a complex details of the explanation evades most people; most people don't figure it out. (Aside: Of course, from their point of view, I don't figure it out :) )



Is it Faith or Works?
Paul’s Passage (Gal. 3:6-18)James’ Passage (James 2:14-26)
Justification before GodJustification before humans
The root of justificationThe fruit of justification
Declaration of our righteousness in ChristDemonstration of our righteousness in Christ
Justification by faithJustification for works
Faith as producer of worksWorks as the proof of faith
Written to answer the question of how a believer is justified before GodWritten to answer the question of how a believer can demonstrate or show his justification
Works are done to earn acceptance in the days of the lawWorks are done as a result of acceptance


Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Book-of-James.html#ixzz3ZAoN13qC
The reason they "seemingly contradict" is because Paul was writing about the works of the Mosaic Law and James is writing about the actions of the faithful.
They are writing about completely different topics.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JLB

for_his_glory

Fight the good fight of faith
Staff member
Administrator
From
South Carolina
Gender
Female
Christian
Yes
Messages
20,693
Joined
Apr 22, 2011
James is here showing the necessary fruits of repentance that those who are genuinely converted to Christ will show. This is not us trying to do the works in our own strength, but trusting in Christ and submitting to the leading of the Holy Spirit so that Christ can do the work in us to produce those fruit. Therefore a failure to show the good works that come from faith is more of a lack of obedience to Christ in the way He wants to lead us, than any lack of effort on our part to show God that we are good moral and religious people.
The works of faith are found in Matthew 25:31-40 as Matthew 5:16 says, Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
 

Fastfredy0

Supporter
From
Chandler, Tx
Gender
Male
Messages
1,348
Joined
May 4, 2020
It is written..."For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" (Heb 3:14)
To you, that is works salvation.
No. My definition of "works salvation" is salvation earned by doing works where works is defined as (per the dictionary) ... a mental or physical activity done to achieve a purpose. FAITH ALONE, as a theological doctrine, mean salvation attained and maintained by FAITH with any work. To be clear, Faith will cause one to have works, but those works do not in any way result in salvation. (Aside: No idea how Heb. 3:13 fits into this subject)

To me, it is a conditional command from God.
You lost me. If you are referring to Heb 3:13 I don't see how that is relevant to FAITH ALONE ... more like perseverance of salvation.

Your salvation is in your own hands, as mine is dependent on me.
Not sure how this relates to FAITH ALONE. (Aside: I feel my salvation is completely in God's hands and I believe you believe God laid the foundation for everyone salvation, but it is up to you to save yourself)

Giggles ... I thought you weren't going to use scripture since I just spout off false doctrine (where false doctrine is anything the does not adhere to your understanding/interpretation.) :)

The reason they "seemingly contradict" is because Paul was writing about the works of the Mosaic Law and James is writing about the actions of the faithful.
They are writing about completely different topics.
Interesting ... never heard that before. Can you direct me to a URL that gives an explanation? I would like to read that.
 

Fastfredy0

Supporter
From
Chandler, Tx
Gender
Male
Messages
1,348
Joined
May 4, 2020
The works of faith are found in Matthew 25:31-40 as Matthew 5:16 says, Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
No idea what this has to do with FAITH ALONE which is defined as salvation based on FAITH ONLY (not faith + works).
Again, if one has Faith works will be a by product but only FAITH results in salvation. Not FAITH + WORKS (aside: The R.C.s love to add works to achieve salvation starting with water baptism for the forgiveness of all sins and then do this and that to maintain ones salvation)

Matthew 25:31-40 is all about rewards for works (aside: for those saved by faith alone)
Matthew 5:16 is again irrelevant. It says to be a good example to others to glorify God. Works do glorify God, but again nothing here about salvation.

AGAIN, the subject is FAITH ALONE which is the doctrine that states one is saved by FAITH ALONE which means WORKS are NOT a cause of salvation.
 

Hopeful

Member
From
Arizona
Gender
Male
Messages
2,547
Joined
Aug 19, 2020
James is here showing the necessary fruits of repentance that those who are genuinely converted to Christ will show. This is not us trying to do the works in our own strength, but trusting in Christ and submitting to the leading of the Holy Spirit so that Christ can do the work in us to produce those fruit. Therefore a failure to show the good works that come from faith is more of a lack of obedience to Christ in the way He wants to lead us, than any lack of effort on our part to show God that we are good moral and religious people.
How is being disobedient different from not showing God we are good, moral, and religious people?
No. My definition of "works salvation" is salvation earned by doing works where works is defined as (per the dictionary) ... a mental or physical activity done to achieve a purpose. FAITH ALONE, as a theological doctrine, mean salvation attained and maintained by FAITH with any work. To be clear, Faith will cause one to have works, but those works do not in any way result in salvation. (Aside: No idea how Heb. 3:13 fits into this subject)
Our whole Christian life is a work for salvation.
Don't do the work, and you wont find your name in the book of life.
That is how Heb 3:14 fits in. (oops, miswrote 13 for 14)
It is written..."For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"
We are to hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end...for salvation !

FASTFREDY :
You lost me. If you are referring to Heb 3:13 I don't see how that is relevant to FAITH ALONE ... more like perseverance of salvation.
But persevering is work ! (And I did mean verse 14)

Not sure how this relates to FAITH ALONE. (Aside: I feel my salvation is completely in God's hands and I believe you believe God laid the foundation for everyone salvation, but it is up to you to save yourself)
I must persevere unto the end.
Don't you have to persevere unto the end?
If you don't, you won't be saved
Giggles ... I thought you weren't going to use scripture since I just spout off false doctrine (where false doctrine is anything the does not adhere to your understanding/interpretation.) :)
I am desperate for your soul.
Interesting ... never heard that before. Can you direct me to a URL that gives an explanation? I would like to read that.
You don't need a URL, as I just told you.
Gal 2:16 says..."Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law:
for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
verses...
"21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." (James 1:21-23, 25)

Paul deals with the Mosaic Law because intruding Jews were trying to reinstitute circumcision, by which we both agree isn't necessary for salvation.
James deals with the proof of Christ in us, bringing forth the fruits of the "engrafted word".
Don't we also agree that those who do not manifest the life and death of Christ are not going to be saved?
The "doers" will be saved.
 

for_his_glory

Fight the good fight of faith
Staff member
Administrator
From
South Carolina
Gender
Female
Christian
Yes
Messages
20,693
Joined
Apr 22, 2011
No idea what this has to do with FAITH ALONE which is defined as salvation based on FAITH ONLY (not faith + works).
Again, if one has Faith works will be a by product but only FAITH results in salvation. Not FAITH + WORKS (aside: The R.C.s love to add works to achieve salvation starting with water baptism for the forgiveness of all sins and then do this and that to maintain ones salvation)

Matthew 25:31-40 is all about rewards for works (aside: for those saved by faith alone)
Matthew 5:16 is again irrelevant. It says to be a good example to others to glorify God. Works do glorify God, but again nothing here about salvation.

AGAIN, the subject is FAITH ALONE which is the doctrine that states one is saved by FAITH ALONE which means WORKS are NOT a cause of salvation.
How do you answer this verse?

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
 

for_his_glory

Fight the good fight of faith
Staff member
Administrator
From
South Carolina
Gender
Female
Christian
Yes
Messages
20,693
Joined
Apr 22, 2011
No idea what this has to do with FAITH ALONE which is defined as salvation based on FAITH ONLY (not faith + works).
Again, if one has Faith works will be a by product but only FAITH results in salvation. Not FAITH + WORKS (aside: The R.C.s love to add works to achieve salvation starting with water baptism for the forgiveness of all sins and then do this and that to maintain ones salvation)

Matthew 25:31-40 is all about rewards for works (aside: for those saved by faith alone)
Matthew 5:16 is again irrelevant. It says to be a good example to others to glorify God. Works do glorify God, but again nothing here about salvation.

AGAIN, the subject is FAITH ALONE which is the doctrine that states one is saved by FAITH ALONE which means WORKS are NOT a cause of salvation.
We are saved by faith alone, but if we do not make faith perfect by exercising by letting the light of Christ shine through us then it only becomes dead faith. Read James 2:14-26 as he explains this in full.
 
From
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Messages
263
Joined
Mar 17, 2021
How is being disobedient different from not showing God we are good, moral, and religious people?

Our whole Christian life is a work for salvation.
Don't do the work, and you wont find your name in the book of life.
That is how Heb 3:14 fits in. (oops, miswrote 13 for 14)
It is written..."For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"
We are to hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end...for salvation !

FASTFREDY :
You lost me. If you are referring to Heb 3:13 I don't see how that is relevant to FAITH ALONE ... more like perseverance of salvation.
But persevering is work ! (And I did mean verse 14)


I must persevere unto the end.
Don't you have to persevere unto the end?
If you don't, you won't be saved

I am desperate for your soul.

You don't need a URL, as I just told you.
Gal 2:16 says..."Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law:
for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
verses...
"21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." (James 1:21-23, 25)

Paul deals with the Mosaic Law because intruding Jews were trying to reinstitute circumcision, by which we both agree isn't necessary for salvation.
James deals with the proof of Christ in us, bringing forth the fruits of the "engrafted word".
Don't we also agree that those who do not manifest the life and death of Christ are not going to be saved?
The "doers" will be saved.
I will answer the bit where I am quoted.
We can try and show that we are good religious and moral people, but outside of Christ God will see it as worse than nothing. If we think that by being good religious and moral people in ourselves and think that we can come to God like that, we shouldn't be surprised if Jesus refuses to know us. This is because the first step to salvation in Christ is to admit before God that we are not good religious and moral people at all. We are miserable, vile sinners, deserving of hell. Unless we see that clearly, Christ will be of no use to us, and we will receive a nasty and embarrassing shock when we appear before Him at the Judgment.
 

Wrg1405

Member
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Messages
1,966
Joined
Jan 4, 2016
Paul himself wrote about water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,, and repentance from sin, and enduring until the end, and dozens of other things to keep us walking in the light instead of in sin.
Are you saying Paul taught baptism for the remission of sin?
 

Hopeful

Member
From
Arizona
Gender
Male
Messages
2,547
Joined
Aug 19, 2020
I will answer the bit where I am quoted.
We can try and show that we are good religious and moral people, but outside of Christ God will see it as worse than nothing. If we think that by being good religious and moral people in ourselves and think that we can come to God like that, we shouldn't be surprised if Jesus refuses to know us. This is because the first step to salvation in Christ is to admit before God that we are not good religious and moral people at all. We are miserable, vile sinners, deserving of hell. Unless we see that clearly, Christ will be of no use to us, and we will receive a nasty and embarrassing shock when we appear before Him at the Judgment.
Amen to that.
As nobody is a good, moral, religious person before their repentance from sin and washing of regeneration, I rejoice that rebirth, along with a number of other facets of God, produces those holy results.
 

Hopeful

Member
From
Arizona
Gender
Male
Messages
2,547
Joined
Aug 19, 2020
Are you saying Paul taught baptism for the remission of sin?
As there is only one baptism men can accomplish, it stands to reason that Paul's baptism was the same as Peter's from Acts 2:38.
Acts 22:16 says..."And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."
So Ananias' baptism of Paul was the same as Peter's too.
Why wouldn't Paul's baptism be the same as Ananias' or Peter's?
 

Wrg1405

Member
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Messages
1,966
Joined
Jan 4, 2016
As there is only one baptism men can accomplish, it stands to reason that Paul's baptism was the same as Peter's from Acts 2:38.
Acts 22:16 says..."And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."
So Ananias' baptism of Paul was the same as Peter's too.
Why wouldn't Paul's baptism be the same as Ananias' or Peter's?
I was asking if Paul taught baptism for the remission of Sins.
I
 
Top