"Faith" . . . Being held to a standard that is alien to god. Why?

[Alabaster]

Of course God is capable of faith. God came in the flesh and dwelt among us...Jesus, remember? He took on human nature and was tested and tried more than you or I ever will be. He had faith that He would be raised from the dead, having taken all your sins and mine instead of us having to pay the price. All you need to do is accept that free gift and you'll experience all that you deny is possible.

You say God is no where to be seen...you know better than that. Why are you posting on a Christian site? I say it's because you want someone to convince you that God exists, but you know that already, or you wouldn't be here.

Amen and amen!

 

[glorydaz]

Show me evidence for god, . . . . specifically that Jesus died on a cross for the sins of the world, . . . and show me with certanty.

Actually, this question pretty much sums up faith. Those who have it only have the "evidence" you're seeking once they are born again. God answers our prayers and creates in us a new heart. We are no longer who we were in the past. It's like explaining to a blind man what a sunset looks like.

 

[glorydaz]

But you don't hear an audible voice. It is inner, . . . and many people can say that that inner voice is a myriad of things. It is still "faith that cannot be truly evidential". A "changed life" is a product of the individual alone, . . . .and to them, I congradulate!

I still stand by the OP of this thread. We are bound to that which god could never understand. I've seen nothing to suggest otherwise. And again, this isn't a negative. It would be the nature of him. But to damn us through what he can't know? That would be the negative.

Good night, all.

This puts me in mind of the brass serpent on the pole. Do you know that passage from the Old Testement?

And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

While the Israelites were wandering around in the desert, they were plagued by poisonous snakes. If they were bitten, they only needed to look at the brass serpent, and the poison would have no effect. Some people may have ran around in circles hoping the poison would work it's way out of their system. Some may have gone off to find some healing herb, hoping that would save them. Some just sat still and sucked at the poison. Those who trusted and believed what Moses told them, and looked upon the brass serpent LIVED. Those who didn't look, for whatever reason, died. The poison is sin, we're all bitten, and there is only one way that we can live. We each have to make that choice.

 

[Deavonreye]

Let me say it again.

No, . . . I DON'T know if a god exists. I may come here, but that doesn't at all mean that I actually do believe it, am in rebellion, and am looking for something to draw me back. I have not seen, heard, felt, or touched anything that is god like, even when I was sincerely christian. If I am "exhaulting myself over god", it only appears that way to the professed christian because they can only see as far as their "christian glasses" of indoctrination and fear of questioning them.

As for this thread, . . . you all are still not understanding my point. Fine. It isn't my problem, but my point is still quite valid. Personal experiences of an individual is not evidential. Many people have been COMPLETELY convinced of wrong philosophies for millenias.

So, once again, we have an impass, based upon a doctrinal disconnection. That doesn't matter because, to me, . . . I haven't sensed god, yet I am expected to "believe anyway". To "have faith" outside of any true evidence. THAT is what god would be completely unable to fathom, . . . "believing without evidence". If we could stay on THIS understanding, maybe we can continue with this discussion. If not, then don't post.

 

[Alabaster]

As someone who says they were once a 'serious Christian', one cannot be saying the things you say now.

Anyone who has come to meet the true Saviour, Jesus Christ, and been changed by Him, cannot renounce Him. He is life. He is love. He is truth.

I pray that one day you will stop digging your heels in and simply accept Him. He is right there waiting, with a life to give you.

Jeremiah 29:11-13 NIV
For I know the plans I have for you,†declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. Then you will call on me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.

 

[Deavonreye]

As someone who says they were once a 'serious Christian', one cannot be saying the things you say now.

Anyone who has come to meet the true Saviour, Jesus Christ, and been changed by Him, cannot renounce Him. He is life. He is love. He is truth.

I pray that one day you will stop digging your heels in and simply accept Him. He is right there waiting, with a life to give you.

Jeremiah 29:11-13 NIV
For I know the plans I have for you,†declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. Then you will call on me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.

Do you think I didn't try back then? I actually did!! I heard verses like Jeremiah 29:11-13 and placed my trust in it. . . . . but even though I sought with all my heart, . . . nothing came back to me. I wasn't "digging my heels" back then!!

Back to topic. I am expected to believe the unseen and unknowable [outside of some ancient writings of unknown origins]. I have seen nothing concrete to be specifically as the christian faith. IF it is true, however, . . . I am expected to believe in a way that god could never understand. Let's stay on this topic. IF you have nothing more to say, then don't post!

 

[Alabaster]

Do you think I didn't try back then? I actually did!! I heard verses like Jeremiah 29:11-13 and placed my trust in it. . . . . but even though I sought with all my heart, . . . nothing came back to me. I wasn't "digging my heels" back then!!

Back to topic. I am expected to believe the unseen and unknowable [outside of some ancient writings of unknown origins]. I have seen nothing concrete to be specifically as the christian faith. IF it is true, however, . . . I am expected to believe in a way that god could never understand. Let's stay on this topic. IF you have nothing more to say, then don't post!

It isn't about trying or striving. It is about surrender.


There is NOTHING God doesn't understand.

2 Timothy 2:7 NLT
Think about what I am saying. The Lord will help you understand all these things.

Understanding is God's to give.

 

[Deavonreye]

Surrender. . . . did that too. Can we get back to the topic?

God cannot understand many things, . . . "believing something without evidence" would be one of them.

 

[Alabaster]

Surrender. . . . did that too. Can we get back to the topic?

God cannot understand many things, . . . "believing something without evidence" would be one of them.

We have to remain surrendered.

God doesn't hold to men's feeble standards. Just because you don't understand something, doesn't mean God doesn't.

When one wears a blindfold, the whole world around the person isn't wearing one, too.

 

[Deavonreye]

We have to remain surrendered.

God doesn't hold to men's feeble standards. Just because you don't understand something, doesn't mean God doesn't.

When one wears a blindfold, the whole world around the person isn't wearing one, too.

"Remaining surrendered" to that which never responded back is a lot to ask of someone.

Please tell me how god can understand the true human mind. Tell me how he can understand what it is like to only have "belief" in that which can't be truly known!

As I said, people can be convinced into believing MANY things, else we would still have two buildings standing in New York today. They are more convinced, yet they have absolutely no evidence of their prophet, nor their god. Point is, what they have, you have too. Belief in their god without actual evidence. God wouldn't know what that would be like.

 

[Alabaster]

"Remaining surrendered" to that which never responded back is a lot to ask of someone.

That is what is required. God always answers back. He never asks something of us that we cannot do. That you think He didn't respond to you is your confusion, but it isn't the truth about God.

Please tell me how god can understand the true human mind. Tell me how he can understand what it is like to only have "belief" in that which can't be truly known!

God created the human mind and all its intricacies. He understands that we all need a revelation of Him, which is spiritual, and so He provides just that by His Spirit.

As I said, people can be convinced into believing MANY things, else we would still have two buildings standing in New York today. They are more convinced, yet they have absolutely no evidence of their prophet, nor their god. Point is, what they have, you have too. Belief in their god without actual evidence. God wouldn't know what that would be like.

False. Christians have the living Jesus. Regeneration of a person from the inside out is what we receive when we trust Him by faith. No other belief does that.

God knows what sin is. He understands all things. He enables us to as well.

Experiencing God and His love and favour goes way beyond knowledge.

Ephesians 3:14-19 NLT
14 When I think of all this, I fall to my knees and pray to the Father, 15 the Creator of everything in heaven and on earth. 16 I pray that from his glorious, unlimited resources he will empower you with inner strength through his Spirit. 17 Then Christ will make his home in your hearts as you trust in him. Your roots will grow down into God’s love and keep you strong. 18 And may you have the power to understand, as all God’s people should, how wide, how long, how high, and how deep his love is. 19 May you experience the love of Christ, though it is too great to understand fully. Then you will be made complete with all the fullness of life and power that comes from God.

 

[Deavonreye]

Show me the "living Jesus". Show me without using ancient text or personal experience, and maybe I will no longer be able to state that I "can only blindly follow a faith", something god can't do.

God may know what "sin" IS, . . . but not what it is like to be bound to it, yet work to overcome it.

 

[Alabaster]

Show me the "living Jesus". Show me without using ancient text or personal experience, and maybe I will no longer be able to state that I "can only blindly follow a faith", something god can't do.

God may know what "sin" IS, . . . but not what it is like to be bound to it, yet work to overcome it.

If you tie my hands I can't show you.

It is Jesus' pleasure to reveal Himself to you as He did to me and billions of others over the centuries.

Jesus Christ was tempted in all ways that we are---even to fall to bondage---yet He never succumbed to sin. Thank God! If He did, we wouldn't have a way to God.

 

[Lloyd]

Show me the "living Jesus". Show me without using ancient text or personal experience, and maybe I will no longer be able to state that I "can only blindly follow a faith", something god can't do.

God may know what "sin" IS, . . . but not what it is like to be bound to it, yet work to overcome it.

Deavonreye,

We accept many things in our lives on faith, without evidence. Just look at the back of some food content, you'll see a whole host of minerals, vitamins and ingredients that you 'accept' it contains. Would you then question everything it contains or do you accept that it's correct? How about the 'scientific facts' of how old the earth is, let's say X billion years as an example. How can we define a billion years if we've never experienced it? Do we therefore accept mathematics and logical assumptions on faith? What makes something credible and true? What measurement do you use? What tick boxes have to be ticked? I would say faith plays a part in all things, since we have to at some point accept a fact we 'personally' have no evidence of. It seems that only in reference to God people think faith applies, we would blindly accept something on the back of a milk carton but question God?

Cheers,
Lloyd.

 

[Deavonreye]

Deavonreye,

We accept many things in our lives on faith, without evidence. Just look at the back of some food content, you'll see a whole host of minerals, vitamins and ingredients that you 'accept' it contains. Would you then question everything it contains or do you accept that it's correct? How about the 'scientific facts' of how old the earth is, let's say X billion years as an example. How can we define a billion years if we've never experienced it? Do we therefore accept mathematics and logical assumptions on faith? What makes something credible and true? What measurement do you use? What tick boxes have to be ticked? I would say faith plays a part in all things, since we have to at some point accept a fact we 'personally' have no evidence of. It seems that only in reference to God people think faith applies, we would blindly accept something on the back of a milk carton but question God?

Cheers,
Lloyd.

Last time I checked, Ingredients or Age Of The Earth informations don't burn you for eternity for not believing them.

 

[Deavonreye]

If you tie my hands I can't show you.

It is Jesus' pleasure to reveal Himself to you as He did to me and billions of others over the centuries.

It is seen as "tying hands" because you cannot produce an evidential Jesus to me. It is all relative.

Jesus Christ was tempted in all ways that we are---even to fall to bondage---yet He never succumbed to sin. Thank God! If He did, we wouldn't have a way to God.

TRUE temptation is one where the person COULD fall to it, and would actually want to. This "pseudo-temptation" of a "perfect deity" is non-sensical.

 

[Alabaster]

[/B]

It is seen as "tying hands" because you cannot produce an evidential Jesus to me. It is all relative.

When you see the change in people that cannot be done on one's own because they have met the King of kings, then you will be confronted with His truth.

Other than a person's testimony, you will only be convinced by a revelation from Jesus Himself. Just like we all were!

TRUE temptation is one where the person COULD fall to it, and would actually want to. This "pseudo-temptation" of a "perfect deity" is non-sensical.

Not really. Jesus was fully human and when Satan tempted Him, he was at a very weak state. He could have easily given in, but He knew where His power was--the word of God. That is a lesson for us all. We can be as weak as He was and still win the battle.

 

[Oats]

Last time I checked, Ingredients or Age Of The Earth informations don't burn you for eternity for not believing them.

though the bible is definitely enough

i see you up trying say after day for someone to convince you, that God can be real

try reading some C.S. Lewis and Epistles

just read it

Mere Christianity or Problem of Pain by C.s. lewis

 

[Deavonreye]

When you see the change in people that cannot be done on one's own because they have met the King of kings, then you will be confronted with His truth.

Other than a person's testimony, you will only be convinced by a revelation from Jesus Himself. Just like we all were!

People change their lives, outside christianity, all the time. It doesn't take anything other than strength of mind, will power, and character. It still isn't "an evidential Jesus" what you have given.

Not really. Jesus was fully human and when Satan tempted Him, he was at a very weak state. He could have easily given in, but He knew where His power was--the word of God. That is a lesson for us all. We can be as weak as He was and still win the battle.

I disagree. The only true temptation is one where the person WILL break it, under the right circumstance. For example, if I was approached by someone of the opposite sex, we got along well, and I went to their place and was propositioned, I would be extremely tempted to do so.

On the other hand, if someone of the same sex propositioned me, it would not be a temptation at all, and would be rather disgusting to me.

Therefore, you must assume that Jesus would also actually WANT to do things that "tempted" him in order for them to be a true temptation. Perhaps "wanting to eat something when extremely hungry" would be a small temptation, but he definitely could NEVER have been tempted the way WE are. No way, if he is god [perfect], . . . . unless god isn't what you believe him to be.

 

[Deavonreye]

though the bible is definitely enough

i see you up trying say after day for someone to convince you, that God can be real

try reading some C.S. Lewis and Epistles

just read it

Mere Christianity or Problem of Pain by C.s. lewis

Words in a book aren't truly evidential, but the words of yet another human being trying to sell something they can't show the buyer.