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"Faith" . . . Being held to a standard that is alien to god. Why?

Deavonreye
You want Jesus to come up to you and tap you on the shoulder and say “Here I am, now do you believeâ€. That is not how God works. He wants us to come to him as a little child, believing in him without all the, I got to see to believe it. I know that you don’t want Bible text but in John chapter 20 Jesus says to Thomas,

Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. John 20:29 (KJV)

We believe in the resurrection of Christ not because somebody convinced us of it, but because we ourselves have come to know the Risen Christ through our inner experience. We have come to believe not because we saw God, but because we have felt His real presence in our hearts.

The skeptical mind of contemporary man says: “Unless I see I will not believeâ€. But we say: “I believe even though I do not seeâ€. If everything in religion were visible, tangible and provable, why and in what would we need to believe? If there were not any mysteries in religion, how would it be different from everything else in our earthly life?
 
beardedad said:
Deavonreye
You want Jesus to come up to you and tap you on the shoulder and say “Here I am, now do you believeâ€. That is not how God works. He wants us to come to him as a little child, believing in him without all the, I got to see to believe it. I know that you don’t want Bible text but in John chapter 20 Jesus says to Thomas,

Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. John 20:29 (KJV)

We believe in the resurrection of Christ not because somebody convinced us of it, but because we ourselves have come to know the Risen Christ through our inner experience. We have come to believe not because we saw God, but because we have felt His real presence in our hearts.

The skeptical mind of contemporary man says: “Unless I see I will not believeâ€. But we say: “I believe even though I do not seeâ€. If everything in religion were visible, tangible and provable, why and in what would we need to believe? If there were not any mysteries in religion, how would it be different from everything else in our earthly life?
Click to expand...

And that is the point of this thread. . . .people being held to a standard unknowable to god. There are MANY gods out there, yet it is left up to a person's "inner experiences" or "a felt presence". These are completely left up to perception alone.

So yes, I would like him to come up to me, tap me on the shoulder, and say, "Okay, here I am. Let's talk about some things." Then, I would no longer be held to an unreasonable standard.
 
Deavonreye said:
[/B][/SIZE][/I]

People change their lives, outside christianity, all the time. It doesn't take anything other than strength of mind, will power, and character. It still isn't "an evidential Jesus" what you have given.
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People with a strong will can change their mind but not their substance. They work out of the soulish realm only. When we have Jesus, He lives in our spirits, and the changes filter down into the soul and the body from that governing place within us. We have a totally new paradigm.

People do not have the strength of mind to change who they are. Only God can do that.



I disagree. The only true temptation is one where the person WILL break it, under the right circumstance. For example, if I was approached by someone of the opposite sex, we got along well, and I went to their place and was propositioned, I would be extremely tempted to do so.

On the other hand, if someone of the same sex propositioned me, it would not be a temptation at all, and would be rather disgusting to me.

Therefore, you must assume that Jesus would also actually WANT to do things that "tempted" him in order for them to be a true temptation. Perhaps "wanting to eat something when extremely hungry" would be a small temptation, but he definitely could NEVER have been tempted the way WE are. No way, if he is god [perfect], . . . . unless god isn't what you believe him to be.
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Jesus was tempted in all ways just as we are.

You are simply assigning made up values to who Jesus is. Judging God is one of your problems. I think you are full of excuses to reject God and what He wants for you---you are running from Him, and there is only one place to go in that case.
 
Alabaster said:
People do not have the strength of mind to change who they are. Only God can do that.
Click to expand...


People can absolutely do this outside of christianity. In fact, those IN christianity who turn their lives around are doing it all on their own. There is nothing magical happening, so you should feel good about turning yourself around. . . . unless you believe that god forcefully made you change!

Alabaster said:
Jesus was tempted in all ways just as we are.

You are simply assigning made up values to who Jesus is. Judging God is one of your problems. I think you are full of excuses to reject God and what He wants for you---you are running from Him, and there is only one place to go in that case.
Click to expand...

No, he wasn't tempted as we are. Do you believe that Jesus wanted/wants to have sex with a woman? Think carefully about how you answer that question.

I say that the christian god person could never be tempted like we are because, like I said, a TRUE temptation MUST be one where the person would actually WANT to do it. Temptation is a failing because it preys upon a person's unmet needs. I would never be tempted to have sex with someone of the same sex because I find it repulsive.
 
Deavonreye said:
And that is the point of this thread. . . .people being held to a standard unknowable to god. There are MANY gods out there, yet it is left up to a person's "inner experiences" or "a felt presence". These are completely left up to perception alone.

So yes, I would like him to come up to me, tap me on the shoulder, and say, "Okay, here I am. Let's talk about some things." Then, I would no longer be held to an unreasonable standard.
Click to expand...

I have not seen many gods out there I have seen what people call gods. There is only one God. If I was asked the question “Why doesn’t God make everything perfect, no sickness, everybody has a place to live, no suffering? I would answer if God gave us everything then why worship him? What would be the point we would need him for nothing since he would give us everything. God wants us to depend on him, lean on him. He wants us to love him as he loves us, but it is our choice. If he came and tapped you on the shoulder to prove he is real than it would be the same, you would not be relying on God to show you in faith, to believe on him.
 
Deavonreye said:
[/B]

People can absolutely do this outside of christianity. In fact, those IN christianity who turn their lives around are doing it all on their own. There is nothing magical happening, so you should feel good about turning yourself around. . . . unless you believe that god forcefully made you change!



No, he wasn't tempted as we are. Do you believe that Jesus wanted/wants to have sex with a woman? Think carefully about how you answer that question.

I say that the christian god person could never be tempted like we are because, like I said, a TRUE temptation MUST be one where the person would actually WANT to do it. Temptation is a failing because it preys upon a person's unmet needs. I would never be tempted to have sex with someone of the same sex because I find it repulsive.
Click to expand...

The Bible states very well that Christ was tempted as we are. He did not give in to these temptations.
 
beardedad said:
I have not seen many gods out there I have seen what people call gods. There is only one God. If I was asked the question “Why doesn’t God make everything perfect, no sickness, everybody has a place to live, no suffering? I would answer if God gave us everything then why worship him? What would be the point we would need him for nothing since he would give us everything. God wants us to depend on him, lean on him. He wants us to love him as he loves us, but it is our choice. If he came and tapped you on the shoulder to prove he is real than it would be the same, you would not be relying on God to show you in faith, to believe on him.
Click to expand...

One could easily say that "they say it has to be taken on faith because they know that there isn't anything real to it". Faith is the problem. . . . . and the point of this topic. "Faith" in what you can't show me, that is what god isn't held to and wouldn't know what it is like to "just have faith, unseen, unknown, etc". . . . yet he punishes for all eternity those who couldn't do what he can't.
 
beardedad said:
The Bible states very well that Christ was tempted as we are. He did not give in to these temptations.
Click to expand...

And I say that the verse that says that is wrong, and if true, god would be as imperfect as we are. Temptation is a failing because it preys upon a person's unmet needs.
 
Deavonreye said:
And I say that the verse that says that is wrong, and if true, god would be as imperfect as we are. Temptation is a failing because it preys upon a person's unmet needs.
Click to expand...

More unfounded judgment. Glad I'm not the One keeping score...
 
This thread reminds me about Luke, chapter 16 and John, chapter 20.

In Luke 16 we read about Lazarus and the rich man. When they died the rich man went to hell for his unbelief and Lazarus to heaven. The rich man pleaded for mercy and was denied so then he asked that his family be warned and was told that they had been warned through the profits. Then he asked that Lazarus be allowed to return from the dead for surely they would be convinced then but was told it wouldn't work. Funny, someone did in fact return from the dead and we still don't believe.

In John 20 we read about how Thomas, after spending three years with Jesus in the flesh and hearing him speak, did not believe he actually rose from the dead until Jesus appeared before him. Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen me, you believed; blessed are they have not seen and yet believe."

Deavonreye, with all due respect, I don't think you were ever a true believer. I think you convinced yourself that you believed and you tried your best to believe but you stopped short of total surrender. But that's okay. It's a first step and at least you have not stopped exploring and seeking answers.

Unfortunately, you are looking for evidence that you are not willing to admit exists even if it is placed right in front of you. Jesus himself could stand before you and you would still deny his existence, thinking he was some nut job.

By all means keep asking, keep seeking, and someday in God's time you will open your heart and surrender to the Lord. Some of us are more stubborn than others. It's not easy to give up one's pride. Trust me, I know what I'm talking about.

Oh Lord, I pray that you open up Deavonreye's heart and mind to you. Wrap your arms around this person and grant him/her the peace of mind and the understanding that only you can give. Lord, I know that whenever two or more are gathered in your name that you will hear our prayers. I ask that others join me in lifting up this person to you for healing. In your holy and precious name I pray, Amen and Amen.
 
Alabaster said:
More unfounded judgment. Glad I'm not the One keeping score...
Click to expand...

Not judgement at all. I say that a perfect being cannot be tempted. If Jesus was also god in the flesh, he would have still thought the same . . . . unless, oddly enough, it has to do with going to the cross, then he and the father weren't actually one.

The facts are still as I have stated above twice, and say again. Temptation is a failing because it preys upon a person's unmet needs.
 
Deavonreye said:
Not judgement at all. I say that a perfect being cannot be tempted. If Jesus was also god in the flesh, he would have still thought the same . . . . unless, oddly enough, it has to do with going to the cross, then he and the father weren't actually one.

The facts are still as I have stated above twice, and say again. Temptation is a failing because it preys upon a person's unmet needs.
Click to expand...

Temptation is not a failing because it is not a sin. Jesus suffered temptation due to His need.

When you judge that God could be sinful and that the scriptures are wrong, you err, and you sit in judgment over God. That places you above Him in your heart.
 
WIP, if a member of heaven came to me, and convinced me of it, then I would have something to go on. Those in heaven don't have to "have faith" that I exist.
 
Deavonreye said:
WIP, if a member of heaven came to me, and convinced me of it, then I would have something to go on. Those in heaven don't have to "have faith" that I exist.
Click to expand...



Every believer in Jesus Christ has been convinced by God Himself of the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

Once again, you put your place in God's place.

God will forgive you when you ask Him.
 
Alabaster said:
Every believer in Jesus Christ has been convinced by God Himself of the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

Once again, you put your place in God's place.

God will forgive you when you ask Him.
Click to expand...

Convincing yourself still isn't evidential, just a mindset. Many religions have the same.
 
you all have been running in circles, i see no need to leave this open as thread has run its course.
 
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