Bible Study Faith in Christ

[for_his_glory]

There is nothing wrong with immersion in water as this is an outward appearance to others that you have received Gods Salvation and the Holy Spirit, John 3:5-7. When the Disciples where in the upper room they all received the Holy Spirit, not by immersion of water, but by Gods Spirit falling on them. What about those people who can not be immersed in water that are incapacitated. Peter did not say that it was through water that we receive the Holy Spirit in Acts 10:47, 48 he was saying that others should not forbid a Gentile who wants to be immersed in water, but repentance must come first. After repentance and the Spiritual rebirth, John 3:5-7, we are then baptized in the Holy Spirit and fire through that of Christ baptism according to Acts 2:38, 39, Matthew 3:11.

This is from the Jerusalem Bible:
John 4:1 When Jesus heard that the Pharisees had found out that he was making and baptizing more disciples than John though in fact it was his disciples who baptized, not Jesus himself he left Judaea and went back to Galilee.

John’s baptism was for the showing of one who repented of their sins first and then symbolized of actual water that they were made clean again. It was not for the receiving Jesus or the Holy Spirit as Jesus ministry hadn’t started yet and the Holy Spirit was given on the day of Pentecost in the upper room. When Jesus was baptized of John it was to fulfill Gods righteousness in Him to receive Gods power and authority to start His ministry here on earth. Water baptism is an outward appearance to others that you have been made righteous through Christ and have receive the Holy Spirit as we are given Gods power and authority through His grace to be His servants and witness here on Earth as Christ was.

Matthew 3:14 But John forbade him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

This is what Smith's Bible dictionary says:
To be baptized for Christ shows an intention to become a true follower of Christ. John baptized with water unto repentance but as a sign of it, perhaps only a sign of their willingness to enroll themselves among John’s followers. Jesus himself did not baptize with water, but with the Spirit and Christian baptism was only instituted after the resurrection when the Lord gave the commission to his apostles to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

This verse shows that these men had already received the Holy Spirit, but wanted to be baptized in water also as followers of Christ. So I believe both verses in Acts to be water, but not for the receiving of the Holy Spirit, but an outward appearance to others that they have repented and received the Holy Spirit already.

Matthew 3:14 But John forbade him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; 2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. 3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. 4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

John's baptism was prophesied by the prophets in the OT as only being for the remission of sin before that of Messiah come. John said in Mark 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

 

[for_his_glory]

Water in John 3:5 is the same water talked about in 1 Pet 3:21 and again in Eph 5:26. It is immersion into this water as described in Rom 6:1-5 and Col 2:11-15 where the Spirit of God takes action to remove our sins and add us to the Church.



Not all messengers are "created angels". I am a messenger of God, as I carry the message of the Gospel to everyone I meet. And yes, some of God's messengers were given the power to do "signs and wonders" on demand, like Moses with the hand to leprosy and the staff to snake signs.


Matt 28:16-20 is good, but Mark 16:16 is a little clearer. Jesus' immersion has no bearing on the immersion He commanded at the end of His ministry. He commanded his Apostles, and they the rest of the disciples, to go preach the Word, and all who believe and are immersed will be saved.

Consider Acts 2:38 for a minute. When the Jews said to Peter that basically, we believe what you are saying, but what do we need to do to be saved from the punishment for our crime? Peter could have said, "Nothing. Jesus did it all on the cross and when He was resurrected, so all you need to do is believe (which you have already done), and you will be forgiven." But that is not what He said. No, he said, "Repent and be immersed for the forgiveness of your sins, and then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." This is the first sermon preached in the newly arisen Kingdom of God. Peter's statement here has huge ramifications for the doctrine of the Kingdom from then on. And just as Jesus commanded him as He rose into Heaven, "He who believes and is immersed will be saved."

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

These verses that Jesus spoke says nothing about being dunked in water, but to only believe. How do we believe, by the hearing of the word.

Acts 2:38-41 those 3000 that were added to the church that day first heard Peter preaching to them. Their hearts were then pricked or another word for pricked is they felt remorse and asked Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

You are taking the word baptized in Acts 2:38 to mean immersion in water, but Peter says to first repent, as those men already believed the words Peter spoke as that is why their hearts were pricked. Then Peter says be baptized, which means to be baptized in the Holy Spirit which is Christ baptism that John the baptist spoke of in Matthew 3:11

This was first spoken by John the baptist in Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire

Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

John the baptist water baptism had nothing to do with receiving the Holy Spirit as the Holy Spirit was not yet come for Jesus had not yet come into His ministry. It was not even for repentance as one had to repent first and have God's forgiveness before they were immersed in water.

Mark 1:4, 5 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

The preaching of repentance came first as they then believe and confessed their sins and then immersed in water as a symbol of the washing away of their sin. No dirty river water can save anyone one.

 

[Doug Brents]

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

These verses that Jesus spoke says nothing about being dunked in water, but to only believe. How do we believe, by the hearing of the word.

Acts 2:38-41 those 3000 that were added to the church that day first heard Peter preaching to them. Their hearts were then pricked or another word for pricked is they felt remorse and asked Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

You are taking the word baptized in Acts 2:38 to mean immersion in water, but Peter says to first repent, as those men already believed the words Peter spoke as that is why their hearts were pricked. Then Peter says be baptized, which means to be baptized in the Holy Spirit which is Christ baptism that John the baptist spoke of in Matthew 3:11

This was first spoken by John the baptist in Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire

Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

John the baptist water baptism had nothing to do with receiving the Holy Spirit as the Holy Spirit was not yet come for Jesus had not yet come into His ministry. It was not even for repentance as one had to repent first and have God's forgiveness before they were immersed in water.

Mark 1:4, 5 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

The preaching of repentance came first as they then believe and confessed their sins and then immersed in water as a symbol of the washing away of their sin. No dirty river water can save anyone one.

Oh no, immersion in the Spirit is not the subject of Acts 2:38. First off, there is only one immersion, as we are told in Eph 4:5. So, which is it, Spirit or Water? To find out, let's look at a couple of other passages. Eph 5:25-27 says that we are made pure by the washing of water by the Word. And 1 Pet 3:21 tells us that the water of immersion saves us like the water of the flood which saved Noah and his family. The water has no power in and of itself. It is the Spirit of God who, in the water, does the work. If you don't go in the water, you don't meet the Spirit of God, and you don't get washed clean.

 

[Doug Brents]

John's baptism was prophesied by the prophets in the OT as only being for the remission of sin before that of Messiah come. John said in Mark 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

And when does Scripture say we meet the Holy Ghost and our sins are circumcised from us? In the water of immersion.

 

[for_his_glory]

Are we saved by dirty river water like that of John the Baptist ministry unto repentance before Christ began His ministry or are we saved through that of God's free gift of grace through faith that is Christ Jesus as we believe and confess Him as Lord and Savior after hearing the word of the Lord.

To the Jew first and then the Gentiles as both make up the body of Christ through that of the Spiritual rebirth from above.

 

[for_his_glory]

Oh no, immersion in the Spirit is not the subject of Acts 2:38. First off, there is only one immersion, as we are told in Eph 4:5. So, which is it, Spirit or Water? To find out, let's look at a couple of other passages. Eph 5:25-27 says that we are made pure by the washing of water by the Word. And 1 Pet 3:21 tells us that the water of immersion saves us like the water of the flood which saved Noah and his family. The water has no power in and of itself. It is the Spirit of God who, in the water, does the work. If you don't go in the water, you don't meet the Spirit of God, and you don't get washed clean.

Acts 2 is all about the coming of the Holy Spirit that God sent down on the day of Pentecost after Jesus ascended up to the Father. Peter preached Christ that day after being filled and anointed by the Holy Spirit. 3000 people heard Peter's teachings of God's word and were pricked in their hearts (convicted by the Holy Spirit). Asking what they should do, Peter tells them to repent of their sin and to be baptized in the name of Jesus. Peter did not say to be water baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, but only in the name of Jesus Christ as His baptism is with the Spirit and fire as John the baptist preached in Matthew 3:11.

This is why John said Jesus needs to increase and he to decrease as he was the forerunner of Christ preparing the way to receive Him by repenting first. Peter also said that no one should forbid these men, being 3000, to be baptized in water the way John did as even John's baptism was unto the remission of sin after those who came to him repented first and then were immersed in water to symbolize the washing away of sin. Only Jesus can wash away our sin by His blood He shed for all who will come to Him with a heart of repentance. It would not be possible for the Disciples to immerse 3000 people in water in just one day.

 

[for_his_glory]

And when does Scripture say we meet the Holy Ghost and our sins are circumcised from us? In the water of immersion.

How could they of John's baptism in water receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit before Christ ministry began? How can those incapable of being immersed in water be baptized in the Holy Spirit? For that matter how did I receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the gift of tongues before I was water baptized?

John's baptism was unto repentance, Christ baptism is of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that is our comforter and who teaches us all things and bring those things back to our remembrance.

 

[Doug Brents]

How could they of John's baptism in water receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit before Christ ministry began? How can those incapable of being immersed in water be baptized in the Holy Spirit? For that matter how did I receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the gift of tongues before I was water baptized?

John's baptism was unto repentance, Christ baptism is of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that is our comforter and who teaches us all things and bring those things back to our remembrance.

My question was not about John's immersion. John's immersion was not NT immersion.

The immersion of Christ is in water. And in the water, and through the laying on of hands, we receive the Holy Spirit. You did not receive the indwelling of the Spirit before you were immersed. The "baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire" occurred only twice in all of history. In the upper room on Pentecost, and to Cornelius and his family. There is every indication that neither of those events had anything to do with salvation. The first was the coming of the Kingdom of God to the Jews. The second was the coming of the Kingdom of God to the Gentiles. The Gentiles were subsequently immersed for the forgiveness of their sins and were added to the Church. The Jews in the upper room were (presumably) immersed for the forgiveness of their sins and added to the Church.

The purpose of immersion is spelled out in Acts 2:38. It is exampled in Acts 22:16. It is explained much more clearly in Rom 6:1-5 and Col 2:11-15. It is commanded of Jesus Himself in Mark 16:16. And it was shown to be central to the early Church's teaching on salvation in Acts 8:36. Something thing just occurred to me about the Ethiopian Eunuch. He would not have been concerned with "showing others the change that had already occurred within him". He was the master of the Queen of Ethiopia's treasury, so none of the people with him would have been his equal. They were all servants. If all immersion was to him (as taught by Philip) was to demonstrate the change that had already occurred, he would have waited until he got home to Ethiopia.

 

[Doug Brents]

Are we saved by dirty river water like that of John the Baptist ministry unto repentance before Christ began His ministry or are we saved through that of God's free gift of grace through faith that is Christ Jesus as we believe and confess Him as Lord and Savior after hearing the word of the Lord.

To the Jew first and then the Gentiles as both make up the body of Christ through that of the Spiritual rebirth from above.

I have a challenge for you. Pull out your Bible and search out every place where "saved" is mentioned. Then look up "forgiveness of sins", redeemed, sanctified, justified, and any other synonym of saved you can think of.

Now, looking at all of them, write down the things that Scripture says lead to receiving it. Belief is certainly one of them, but there are others. I challenge each and every person who reads this to do it for themselves. Read what Scripture says leads to salvation.

Now, when you are done, you have to ask yourself, "Is just one of these things necessary? Can we do any one of them and exclude the others, or must all of them be included in our idea about what salvation requires?" Remember, this is God's plan, not mine. Can we pick and choose what we want to do to be acceptable to the Creator of the universe? Or must we do what HE commands to be acceptable to Him?

 

[for_his_glory]

My question was not about John's immersion. John's immersion was not NT immersion.

The immersion of Christ is in water. And in the water, and through the laying on of hands, we receive the Holy Spirit. You did not receive the indwelling of the Spirit before you were immersed. The "baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire" occurred only twice in all of history. In the upper room on Pentecost, and to Cornelius and his family. There is every indication that neither of those events had anything to do with salvation. The first was the coming of the Kingdom of God to the Jews. The second was the coming of the Kingdom of God to the Gentiles. The Gentiles were subsequently immersed for the forgiveness of their sins and were added to the Church. The Jews in the upper room were (presumably) immersed for the forgiveness of their sins and added to the Church.

The purpose of immersion is spelled out in Acts 2:38. It is exampled in Acts 22:16. It is explained much more clearly in Rom 6:1-5 and Col 2:11-15. It is commanded of Jesus Himself in Mark 16:16. And it was shown to be central to the early Church's teaching on salvation in Acts 8:36. Something thing just occurred to me about the Ethiopian Eunuch. He would not have been concerned with "showing others the change that had already occurred within him". He was the master of the Queen of Ethiopia's treasury, so none of the people with him would have been his equal. They were all servants. If all immersion was to him (as taught by Philip) was to demonstrate the change that had already occurred, he would have waited until he got home to Ethiopia.

I did answer your question of your post #264 with my post #265 and 267.

Now you are telling me I never received the baptism of Christ which is that of receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit Jesus spoke of in John 3:5-7. You really need to get away from whoever is teaching you these things and go study for yourself allowing the Holy Spirit teach you as those teachings do not line up with the scripture, even the ones you are giving. It's when we learn to Spiritual discern what others are teaching is when truth will be revealed to us by God's Holy Spirit, John 14:26; 1 John 4:1-6.

We are baptized in Christ and receive the indwelling Holy Spirit at that time of God's salvation, Romans 10:9-10, as we are justified by the blood of Christ who has already made atonement for our sin.

Romans 5:1-11 especially vs. 9-11 that says: Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

We are saved by Jesus act of justification and not by our symbolic act of water baptism. John's baptism was for repentance, making straight the way of the Lord. Jesus came at the end of John's water baptism. The Holy Spirit was not yet sent down from God until Christ's finished works on the cross and His ascension up to the Father. This is why Jesus never baptized anyone in water as it is by grace through faith that is Christ Jesus For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Salvation means deliverance from sin and its consequences brought about by faith in Christ, not dirty river water.

These three passages, Corinthians 12:13; Romans 8:9 and Ephesians 1:13, 14, make it clear that the Holy Spirit is received at the moment of salvation when we confess Christ Jesus as Lord and Savior.
Again, why do people not believe Ephesians 2:8-10!!!

 

[for_his_glory]

I have a challenge for you. Pull out your Bible and search out every place where "saved" is mentioned. Then look up "forgiveness of sins", redeemed, sanctified, justified, and any other synonym of saved you can think of.

Now, looking at all of them, write down the things that Scripture says lead to receiving it. Belief is certainly one of them, but there are others. I challenge each and every person who reads this to do it for themselves. Read what Scripture says leads to salvation.

Now, when you are done, you have to ask yourself, "Is just one of these things necessary? Can we do any one of them and exclude the others, or must all of them be included in our idea about what salvation requires?" Remember, this is God's plan, not mine. Can we pick and choose what we want to do to be acceptable to the Creator of the universe? Or must we do what HE commands to be acceptable to Him?

I don't need a challenge as I have already done that. If you go back and scroll down the forums to the Members Writings you can read my articles I wrote on Salvation, Holy Spirit and Faith. I'll have to check to see if I posted my 3 page article on Baptism. If not I will post it.

 

[for_his_glory]

I have a challenge for you. Pull out your Bible and search out every place where "saved" is mentioned. Then look up "forgiveness of sins", redeemed, sanctified, justified, and any other synonym of saved you can think of.

Now, looking at all of them, write down the things that Scripture says lead to receiving it. Belief is certainly one of them, but there are others. I challenge each and every person who reads this to do it for themselves. Read what Scripture says leads to salvation.

Now, when you are done, you have to ask yourself, "Is just one of these things necessary? Can we do any one of them and exclude the others, or must all of them be included in our idea about what salvation requires?" Remember, this is God's plan, not mine. Can we pick and choose what we want to do to be acceptable to the Creator of the universe? Or must we do what HE commands to be acceptable to Him?

The word saved is recorded 104 times in the entire Bible, save is recorded 233 times in the Bible. Forgiveness appears 121 times, redeemed 10 times, sanctified 5 times, justified 39 times.

Each time these words are mentioned you need the full context to understand the various meanings.

I am going to my brothers this afternoon and will post my class on Baptism in the Members Writings forum.

 

[Doug Brents]

Now you are telling me I never received the baptism of Christ which is that of receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit Jesus spoke of in John 3:5-7. You really need to get away from whoever is teaching you these things and go study for yourself allowing the Holy Spirit teach you as those teachings do not line up with the scripture, even the ones you are giving. It's when we learn to Spiritual discern what others are teaching is when truth will be revealed to us by God's Holy Spirit, John 14:26; 1 John 4:1-6.

I am not telling you anything. Scripture tells you that you receive the Holy Spirit's indwelling at the instant that you are immersed. What immersion? Immersion in water according to 1 Pet 3:21, Eph 5:26, and others. There is only one immersion (Eph 4:4-6), and that is in water. The Spirit is the active agent in the water, as He is the one who removes our sins, unites us with Christ, and resurrects us. But He does not indwell you until you are immersed.

We are baptized in Christ and receive the indwelling Holy Spirit at that time of God's salvation, Romans 10:9-10, as we are justified by the blood of Christ who has already made atonement for our sin.

Yes, we receive the indwelling of the Spirit when we are saved. But we are not saved by simple, inactive, passive, mental assent, belief. We are saved through our faith, and according to James 2, our actions are what give faith life. Just as the breath of God gave life to Man, so actions give life to faith. Faith continues to exhibit actions just as life continues to exhibit breathing, but it is the breath that gives life first, just as it is actions that give life to faith first (James 2:12, 24, & 26).

Romans 5:1-11

especially vs. 9-11 that says: Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

No argument here. We are definitely justified by His Blood. But we only encounter the Blood in the water during immersion.

We are saved by Jesus act of justification and not by our symbolic act of water baptism. John's baptism was for repentance, making straight the way of the Lord. Jesus came at the end of John's water baptism. The Holy Spirit was not yet sent down from God until Christ's finished works on the cross and His ascension up to the Father. This is why Jesus never baptized anyone in water as it is by grace through faith that is Christ Jesus For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Satan can quote Scripture too, but, as you have done, he takes it out of context, or he twists the meaning just enough to make it a lie. It is very clear that you do not understand the meaning of Eph 2:8-9. You cannot understand it if you use it to defend "faith only" as some have described it. Consider, if Eph 2:8-9 means that there is no human action necessary to for a person to take hold of salvation, then Rom 10:9-10 is a lie. For it says that, "with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." So this is clearly a human action that leads to salvation. There can be no disputing that. So my question to you would be, if there is one undisputed action that is required of man to receive salvation, then why would you argue about another that is also commanded by Scripture? And if you do dispute that Rom 10:9-10 commands a human action that leads to salvation, the we are through here, because that proves that you don't want the truth of Scripture, you only want Satan's watered down version that leads to Hell.

Salvation means deliverance from sin and its consequences brought about by faith in Christ, not dirty river water.

Again, no argument here. Without Christ's death burial and resurrection, there would be no way possible, and this conversation would be moot. But He did make a way, and gave specific instructions on how we were to qualify to receive the gift that He offers.

These three passages, Corinthians 12:13; Romans 8:9 and Ephesians 1:13, 14, make it clear that the Holy Spirit is received at the moment of salvation when we confess Christ Jesus as Lord and Savior.
Again, why do people not believe Ephesians 2:8-10!!!

I assume that you meant 1 Cor 12:13, but that passage does not support your thesis. Neither do Rom 8:9 or Eph 1:13-14. The speak of being sealed with the Spirit, but they give no indication of when that occurs. Compare, if you will, 1 Cor 12:13 with Col 2:11-15 and Rom 6:1-6, and then read 1 Pet 3:21 and Eph 5:26 for clarity. What conclusion do you draw? I'll tell you what I see. With all of those merged so that you see one complete picture, not just pieces through a key hole as it were, I see that we are immersed into water (any water, it doesn't matter) while calling on the Name of Jesus as our Lord, and in that water the Spirit of God meets us. He cuts from us our sins (circumcision made without hands), and we are united with Jesus death. We are then raised by the Spirit to new life, and become part of the Body of Christ, and co-heirs with Jesus of eternal life.

Again, I believe Eph 2:8-10 wholeheartedly. But you are interpreting it wrongly. It says that we are saved by Grace. That is absolutely true. It is God's gift to us that gives us even a hope of being saved.
But it says that grace comes to us through faith. And faith is not the same as belief. Faith is not a simply mental exercise by which we acknowledge God and "make Jesus Lord of our life" and it is done. Faith must include our actions, and those actions must begin before we receive salvation for faith to be the conduit by which we receive salvation that Eph 2:8-9 says it is. And those actions must include all of the things that Scripture says lead to salvation. And those are hearing the Word (Rom 10:14), Believing the Word and that Jesus is the Messiah (Rom 10:9), Repenting of our sins (Acts 3:19), publicly and verbally Confessing that Jesus is the Messiah (Rom 10:9), and being immersed for the forgiveness of our sins (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16). There are many other passages for each of these, but since all Scripture is inspired and inerrant, even one passage is enough to prove a point (when taken in context).

So then, hearing the Word is not enough. Believing the Word is not enough. Confessing Jesus as your Lord is not enough. Repenting of your sins is not enough. Being immersed in itself is not enough. Only through complete obedience does one qualify to receive the gift which is promised as a reward for those who do so.

As I pointed out elsewhere (I think in another thread), Let's say I built a house, completely finished and furnished. I don't ask you to drive the last nail, or caulk the last joint. I finished it all. It is ready for you to move in. But I won't give the keys to just anyone. All I ask is that you give me a high five, and the keys are yours. Question, did the high five earn the house for you? No, I paid for it and did all the work to build it. Did the high five finish the house? No, I finished it completely before you even knew there was a house. Did you deserve the house? No, not in any way. It is a gift from me to you.

Now, completely remove me, and put God and Jesus in my place in the story. God built a house (salvation) and finished it with Jesus' resurrection, and it is furnished with solid Gold throughout the entire house. He drove the last nail, and finished every joint. It is complete and there is nothing we can do to make it better. But He won't give the keys to just anyone. We must surrender to Him, and His will through obedience to His commands as listed above.

 

[for_his_glory]

Doug Brents

To start with, please do not tell someone they do not understand scripture just because they do not agree with you as we are all on different levels of learning as we discuss with each other. Don't compare me with Satan as I have never twisted anything, but gave exactly what the scriptures say whether you want to believe the full of scripture or just certain parts.

We are redeemed by the blood of Christ who washes us clean again by His blood, Colossians 1:3-23. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit comes at the time of the Spiritual rebirth Jesus taught us in John 3:5-7. The word baptized is never mentioned in John 3:5 as we are born of water, meaning by the hearing of the word just like those 3000 that day on Pentecost who heard the word of God being spoken by Peter and then repented and were baptized in Christ baptism that is for the receiving of the Holy Spirit.

We are saved by God's grace through faith that is Christ Jesus and His finished works on the cross being the blood He shed for the remission of our sins as we first believe by confessing He is the Son of God, John 3:16.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Works do give life to faith as we continue in the good works God started in us as we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Our faith is in Christ Jesus who is our faith as we first believe in Him and then comes obedience as we learn of God's commands in order to keep faith active in us.

How do we encounter the blood of Christ in literal water when it was already freely given on the cross to all who will confess with their mouth and believe in their heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. The Holy Spirit being the very Spirit of God does not meet us in the water. You are the first person I have ever heard make such a statement as nowhere in scripture does it state this.

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Yes, with the mouth confession is made unto salvation, not literal water. There is no argument as there is only one way to be saved per Ephesians 2:8-10. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit at the time of our Spiritual rebirth as we are then indwelled with the Holy Spirit just like those 120 people in the upper room on the day of Penetcost and after hearing Peter preach the word of God all together 3000 people were baptized in Christ that day indwelled with the Holy Spirit.

What can wash away my sin, nothing but the blood of Jesus. Who can make me whole again, nothing but the blood of Jesus. Oh precious is the flow that makes me white as snow, no other fount I know, nothing but the blood of Jesus.

For my cleansing this I see, nothing but the blood of Jesus. For my pardon this my plea, nothing but the blood of Jesus.

Nothing can my sin erase, nothing but the blood of Jesus, Naught of works, tis all of grace, nothing but the blood of Jesus.

This is all my hope and peace, nothing but the blood of Jesus. This is all my righteousness, nothing but the blood of Jesus.

John the Baptist baptized in water as an outward symbolic washing away of sin preparing others for the way of the Lord. The Holy Spirit was not yet given until Jesus ascended up to Heaven and God sent down the Holy Spirit to indwell us, comfort and teach us all things God wants us to learn.

There is nothing wrong with being immersed in water the way John did as an outward appearance that one only repented, but was not Spiritually born by the baptism of Christ and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Doug Brents]

Doug Brents

To start with, please do not tell someone they do not understand scripture just because they do not agree with you as we are all on different levels of learning as we discuss with each other. Don't compare me with Satan as I have never twisted anything, but gave exactly what the scriptures say whether you want to believe the full of scripture or just certain parts.

We are redeemed by the blood of Christ who washes us clean again by His blood, Colossians 1:3-23. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit comes at the time of the Spiritual rebirth Jesus taught us in John 3:5-7. The word baptized is never mentioned in John 3:5 as we are born of water, meaning by the hearing of the word just like those 3000 that day on Pentecost who heard the word of God being spoken by Peter and then repented and were baptized in Christ baptism that is for the receiving of the Holy Spirit.

We are saved by God's grace through faith that is Christ Jesus and His finished works on the cross being the blood He shed for the remission of our sins as we first believe by confessing He is the Son of God, John 3:16.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Works do give life to faith as we continue in the good works God started in us as we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Our faith is in Christ Jesus who is our faith as we first believe in Him and then comes obedience as we learn of God's commands in order to keep faith active in us.

How do we encounter the blood of Christ in literal water when it was already freely given on the cross to all who will confess with their mouth and believe in their heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. The Holy Spirit being the very Spirit of God does not meet us in the water. You are the first person I have ever heard make such a statement as nowhere in scripture does it state this.

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Yes, with the mouth confession is made unto salvation, not literal water. There is no argument as there is only one way to be saved per Ephesians 2:8-10. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit at the time of our Spiritual rebirth as we are then indwelled with the Holy Spirit just like those 120 people in the upper room on the day of Penetcost and after hearing Peter preach the word of God all together 3000 people were baptized in Christ that day indwelled with the Holy Spirit.

What can wash away my sin, nothing but the blood of Jesus. Who can make me whole again, nothing but the blood of Jesus. Oh precious is the flow that makes me white as snow, no other fount I know, nothing but the blood of Jesus.

For my cleansing this I see, nothing but the blood of Jesus. For my pardon this my plea, nothing but the blood of Jesus.

Nothing can my sin erase, nothing but the blood of Jesus, Naught of works, tis all of grace, nothing but the blood of Jesus.

This is all my hope and peace, nothing but the blood of Jesus. This is all my righteousness, nothing but the blood of Jesus.

John the Baptist baptized in water as an outward symbolic washing away of sin preparing others for the way of the Lord. The Holy Spirit was not yet given until Jesus ascended up to Heaven and God sent down the Holy Spirit to indwell us, comfort and teach us all things God wants us to learn.

There is nothing wrong with being immersed in water the way John did as an outward appearance that one only repented, but was not Spiritually born by the baptism of Christ and the Holy Spirit.

This entire post is a load of feelgood nonsense. I'm sorry, but you have missed a few very important passages in Scripture that will correct a lot of what you have written here.

First, you are correct that we are saved by grace THROUGH faith (Eph 2:8-9). That means that faith (living and active, inclusive of the actions that give it life) must precede our reception of salvation (James 2:17, 24, & 26). Thus the actions we take are necessary for us to receive salvation. Those actions do not "earn" or cause us to "deserve" salvation, but they do qualify us to receive it.

Second, NT immersion (baptism) is not "Spirit" immersion, it is in water. Spirit immersion does not include being "buried", nor does it match the examples we see in Acts 22:16 or Acts 8:36. It is clearly water immersion which is described in 1 Pet 3:21 and Eph 5:25-27 which those Scripture say leads to salvation.

Third, the "baptism of the Holy Spirit in fire" only occurred twice in all of history. Pentecost (the Jews who were there at the start of the Kingdom of God), and Cornelius' house (the first Gentiles added to the Church). These two events were exceptional and in no way set a precedent for any other salvation event. The Holy Spirit is received by all other individuals in NT Scripture by the laying on of hands during or after immersion.

 

[for_his_glory]

Doug Brents

I am done as this is turning into you being right and you telling me I have no understanding of scripture. I will no longer discuss this topic with you so I bid you a good night and God bless.

 

[Doug Brents]

Doug Brents

I am done as this is turning into you being right and you telling me I have no understanding of scripture. I will no longer discuss this topic with you so I bid you a good night and God bless.

I am truly sorry to hear that. It is not about me being right, it is about Scripture being right and us submitting our will to God's. I pray that you will allow your heart to be opened to the truths that I have been writing. Forgive me for offending you.

 

[PeterJens]

This entire post is a load of feelgood nonsense. I'm sorry, but you have missed a few very important passages in Scripture that will correct a lot of what you have written here.

First, you are correct that we are saved by grace THROUGH faith (Eph 2:8-9). That means that faith (living and active, inclusive of the actions that give it life) must precede our reception of salvation (James 2:17, 24, & 26). Thus the actions we take are necessary for us to receive salvation. Those actions do not "earn" or cause us to "deserve" salvation, but they do qualify us to receive it.

Second, NT immersion (baptism) is not "Spirit" immersion, it is in water. Spirit immersion does not include being "buried", nor does it match the examples we see in Acts 22:16 or Acts 8:36. It is clearly water immersion which is described in 1 Pet 3:21 and Eph 5:25-27 which those Scripture say leads to salvation.

Third, the "baptism of the Holy Spirit in fire" only occurred twice in all of history. Pentecost (the Jews who were there at the start of the Kingdom of God), and Cornelius' house (the first Gentiles added to the Church). These two events were exceptional and in no way set a precedent for any other salvation event. The Holy Spirit is received by all other individuals in NT Scripture by the laying on of hands during or after immersion.

"This entire post is a load of feelgood nonsense. "

Do you understand why this sentence is just so wrong?
You cannot call a brother or sister in Christ, those full of the Holy Spirit, redeemed and purchased by the blood of Christ, saying they are speaking nonsense, especially when in regard to their Lord and Saviour. It is sin. As Jesus put it, it endangers ones own salvation.

A lot of what Jesus spoke is to reassure and encourage those who trust Him, and put their lives in His hands. This is literally a feel good gospel, a gospel that brings life and soul to our hearts, that tells us of treasure that will not fade or rot waiting for us in heaven. The point is knowing we need this love, this knowledge the King of all dearly loves us and desires we might know Him. To reject our needs which lie deep within us, is to be hard hearted and lost. It is why Jesus went to sinners, who know their lostness and rejection, but feel there is no hope or way out. Jesus opens the door to liberation, to healing, to wholeness, to victory, to rescue, to significance.

I know too many believers who call themselves followers of Christ but do not know meekness, a poor spirit, mourning and sadness, hunger and thirsting for righteousness, a walk of love and life that Jesus showed. They are first to leap to this is the definition of everything, and be damned everyone who disagrees. Little do they see this very approach is about domination, being better than, winning, rather than shinning as a light in a dark place. Emotionally this is night and day, knowing need and weakness and Gods answer, or striding in to put people in their place and the speaker has the answer which must be acknowledged or else.

When Jesus went public, He bowed His head and died for sinners in a lost world. That is our example. Profoundly different, profoundly about winning an eternal victory and not one of this world. God bless you