Bible Study Faith in Christ

[Ernest T. Bass]

There were 120 in the upper room that day after the disciples came back to Jerusalem after being with Jesus on the mount called Olivet and witnessing Jesus ascension up to heaven, Acts 1:11-15. They were not in Galilee, but were men of Galilee.

The 120 that were gathered together in the upper room started speaking in other languages after the Holy Spirit fell on them. Now when this was noised abroad the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galileans? There was only a questioned that was asked as it does not say they were all from Galilee.

Context. Acts 1:1-5 Jesus was only speaking to His Apostles and promised only them the Holy Spirit, no one else.

The events of Acts 1:11-15 occurred after Jesus had already ascended back to heaven at a different place and time (Acts 1:12-13) from Acts 1:1-5.

Those that spoke Galilaean did so for they were from Galilee. The chance all the multitude were from Galilee and spoke Galilaean is too improbable to be true.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I don't know if you are JW or not, but so much of what you say in here about the free gift of grace being conditional, the Trinity not being Biblical and the Holy Spirit and that miracles like healing is not for today is exactly what they teach and these are heretical false doctrines of the Watchtower Organization.

​

--Titus 2:11 if grace is UNconditional as you seem to think, then ALL men will unconditionally be saved and you are pushing the error or Universalism. The fact some men will be lost (Matt 7:13) proves grace is conditional. And meeting the condition on a free gift does not in any way earn the free gift.

--I said in an earlier post the the word "Trinity" is not in the BIble but the idea of it is found in the Bible. You did not read that post of mine correctly.

--no one today has been given any power to perform miracles. per 1 Cor 13 and Eph 4. Not far from me is a hospital with about 1000 beds and a morgue. I will pay for your trip here to empty out that hospital, even buy you lunch before you leave. OK?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Does that mean the LDS?

No.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

And what I post comes from around 40 years of studying as in the last 15 or so years I no longer attend any church since there are no good word churches in my area since the last one was forced to close its doors. All my studying comes straight from the KJV and hearing the Holy Spirit teach me either directly or through those He has anointed and works through to teach me. I Spiritually discern that of what I am taught by others and if those teachings do not line up with the full context of scripture I do not believe them.

There is but one body/church (Ephesians 4:4; cf Ephesians 5:23 and Colossians 1:18) and there is no salvation outside the body.

You provide no proof from the Bible that the Spirit teaches men apart from the word in a Supernatural way. If the HS directly teaches you with 'words' you would be inspired as the Bible writers (which you're not) and infallible (which you're are not).

How often those who claim they are taught supernaturally by the Holy Spirit contradict each other and contradict the Bible.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

you answer 3 questions with a different question
you are fast becoming typical

You implied I cannot disagree with others but others can disagree with me.

Why should I agree with those that teach things not found within the Bible?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

If all you read is Acts 10, then you will get the impression that the Gentiles heard the Gospel before the Spirit fell. But Acts 11 gives more clarity. Peter said "as I began to speak..." If the Spirit fell on them as he began to speak, then that does not contradict "while he was saying these words". But it does clarify that the Spirit fell before the Gospel was heard, understood, or believed, and well before any faith could be expressed in the Gospel. They were not saved/forgiven/added to the Church when the Spirit fell on them. They were only saved/forgiven/added to the Church when they were immersed into Christ.

The fact Cornelius would be saved by "words" (Acts 11:14) means he could not be saved BEFORE hearing those saving words.

 

[Doug Brents]

The fact Cornelius would be saved by "words" (Acts 11:14) means he could not be saved BEFORE hearing those saving words.

Good point. Thank you for the insight. I had not seen that particular connection before.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

You implied I cannot disagree with others but others can disagree with me.

Why should I agree with those that teach things not found within the Bible?

You don't deserve an answer.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

You implied I cannot disagree with others but others can disagree with me.

Why should I agree with those that teach things not found within the Bible?

I imply, I imply
You don't even know what the word means

 

[for_his_glory]

If all you read is Acts 10, then you will get the impression that the Gentiles heard the Gospel before the Spirit fell. But Acts 11 gives more clarity. Peter said "as I began to speak..." If the Spirit fell on them as he began to speak, then that does not contradict "while he was saying these words". But it does clarify that the Spirit fell before the Gospel was heard, understood, or believed, and well before any faith could be expressed in the Gospel. They were not saved/forgiven/added to the Church when the Spirit fell on them. They were only saved/forgiven/added to the Church when they were immersed into Christ.

I am trying to show the full context in Acts 10 and 11 that the Holy Spirit fell on those Gentiles, including Cornelius before they were watered baptized. The Gospel of Christ was not yet available during John the baptist ministry of water baptism for the remission of sin preparing the way of the Lord.

No, the Spirit did not fall on Cornelius before he heard the word spoken. Beginning with Acts 10:1-33 is all about Peter and Cornelius as Cornelius called for Peter to come to his house as many were gathered there. Acts 10:34-43 Peter begins to preach to all that were gathered, including Cornelius as Peter came to his house. Acts 10:44-48 while Peter was speaking to them the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. Then Peter commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. The Holy Spirit came first and then they were water baptized.

Acts 11:1-18 is about Peter defending his ministry to the Gentiles after returning back to Jerusalem. When you compare Acts 10:44-48 with Acts 11:13-16 it says the same thing that when they heard the word of God they were filled with the Holy Spirit and then they were commanded to be baptized in water in the name of Jesus.

 

[for_his_glory]

Absolutely. Rom 6:1-5, and a very similar passage in Col 2:11-15.

Thank you for those scriptures.

The Bible is divided in Books, Chapters and verses to make it easier for us to study, cross reference and to understand the full context of what the authors are teaching us as we compare scripture with scripture, OT with NT. For the most part each book flows from one chapter to the next as we see for instance in Romans 5:12-21 that flows straight into Romans 6:1-5.

Romans 5:1-11 Paul is teaching about peace with God through faith. This flows into 5:12-21 where Paul is teaching about the death in Adam and life in Christ that into Chapter 6:1-14 that we are dead to sin and alive to God.

We are buried with Christ by baptism into death, meaning we crucifying the flesh, as we are made alive to God by faith that is Christ Jesus as we are indwelled with the Holy Spirit through the Spiritual rebirth as we now walk in newness of life being led by God's Holy Spirit as we are freed from sin, Colossians 2:11-15, Colossians 3:1-4, John 3:5-7.

 

[Doug Brents]

I am trying to show the full context in Acts 10 and 11 that the Holy Spirit fell on those Gentiles, including Cornelius before they were watered baptized. The Gospel of Christ was not yet available during John the baptist ministry of water baptism for the remission of sin preparing the way of the Lord.

No, the Spirit did not fall on Cornelius before he heard the word spoken. Beginning with Acts 10:1-33 is all about Peter and Cornelius as Cornelius called for Peter to come to his house as many were gathered there. Acts 10:34-43 Peter begins to preach to all that were gathered, including Cornelius as Peter came to his house. Acts 10:44-48 while Peter was speaking to them the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. Then Peter commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. The Holy Spirit came first and then they were water baptized.

Acts 11:1-18 is about Peter defending his ministry to the Gentiles after returning back to Jerusalem. When you compare Acts 10:44-48 with Acts 11:13-16 it says the same thing that when they heard the word of God they were filled with the Holy Spirit and then they were commanded to be baptized in water in the name of Jesus.

It does say the same thing, the Spirit fell on Cornelius "as [Peter] began to speak", which would also qualify the statement, "while Peter was speaking". While he was speaking could be just as he was finishing, or it could be in the middle of his talk, or it could be just as he began to speak. Acts 11:15 makes it clear that it was as he began to speak that the Spirit fell. As Earnest pointed out, God told Cornelius that he would hear words from Peter by which he would be saved, but Peter had not yet said those words. He had barely begun to speak before the Spirit came on the listeners. And as I said before, this was to show the Jews with Peter (and Peter himself) that the Gentiles were no longer "unclean", but could become equal brothers and sisters in Christ with the Jews.

 

[Doug Brents]

Thank you for those scriptures.

The Bible is divided in Books, Chapters and verses to make it easier for us to study, cross reference and to understand the full context of what the authors are teaching us as we compare scripture with scripture, OT with NT. For the most part each book flows from one chapter to the next as we see for instance in Romans 5:12-21 that flows straight into Romans 6:1-5.

Romans 5:1-11 Paul is teaching about peace with God through faith. This flows into 5:12-21 where Paul is teaching about the death in Adam and life in Christ that into Chapter 6:1-14 that we are dead to sin and alive to God.

We are buried with Christ by baptism into death, meaning we crucifying the flesh, as we are made alive to God by faith that is Christ Jesus as we are indwelled with the Holy Spirit through the Spiritual rebirth as we now walk in newness of life being led by God's Holy Spirit as we are freed from sin, Colossians 2:11-15, Colossians 3:1-4, John 3:5-7.

I totally agree, but if you read Rom 6:3&4 it says clearly that we are immersed into Christ's death, and because of that, we are united with Him in His resurrection. Also in Col 2:12, we are told that the Spirit does His work of circumcising sin from us when we are buried with Christ in immersion. And in Acts 22:16 Ananias told Saul to be immersed to wash away his sins. If he had been saved when he believed, he would have been saved on the road three days before. But he was still in sin after three days. You cannot be saved if you are still in sin. So he was not saved until he was immersed just as Ananias, through the Holy Spirit, commanded him.

You will notice that I don't use the word baptize/baptism/baptized/etc. This is because of the disservice that the translators of the KJV did to us when they came to this word in Greek. Baptizo is the Greek word that means to immerse. But the people who translated the KJV had the practice of sprinkling our pouring water over people instead of immersing. To prevent the common person from seeing their hippocracy (or changing what they did to by Scripturally correct), they took the Greek word, put it in English, and defined it how they wanted to (transliteration). So I use immerse to be more clear about what we are talking about.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

2 Thess 1:8

--In flaming fire God will have vengeance upon those that "obey not the gospel"

--the gospel is the death burial and resurrection of Christ; 1 Cor 15:1-4

--Romans 6 in water baptism the old man of sin dies, is buried in a watery grave, then 'raised up' (resurrected) to walk in newness of life. A death, burial and resurrection takes place in water baptism and not in a sinner's prayer, faith only or any "spirit baptism".

=========

F.F. Bruce: "baptism in the New Testament is always baptism in water unless the context shows it to be something else; that is to say, the word is always to be understood literally unless the context indicates a figurative meaning” (Questions Answered, p. 106).

Eph 4:5; Rom 6:3-5; Col 2:12 literal immersion in water from which one is raised up from.

 

[for_his_glory]

Healing the sick, feeding the hungry, and raising the dead were good deeds in and of themselves, but the purpose of doing those things was not the good that He could do for men. The PURPOSE of those acts was to prove that He was who He said He was. It is demonstrated in at least two places that the Jewish leaders of the day knew this fact.

John 3:1 and following shows Nicodemus coming to Jesus and saying that I know you are from God, because no one can do what you have done except for God being with him. Because of what you have done, I know your message is from God.

John 6:30 the Jewish leaders ask Jesus point blank, you say you are from God, but what sign will you do to prove it. A messenger from God (in that day and time) could do signs and wonders on demand to prove his message's validity. If he could not do the sign on demand, he was a fake and was to be killed.

Today, no one can do signs and wonders "on demand", because we have the Word written down with proofs both within it, and in the secular history that back up the validity of the written Word. There is no more Biblically defined need for miracles today.

Matthew 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

This is the comission Jesus gave to His disciples as we read in Matthew 28:18-20 as they went out to the nations making disciples of all who would accept the word of God.

Mark 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. 15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. 19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. 20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Miracles and healing are for today just as they were when Jesus walked the earth during His ministry showing signs and wonders of God's mercy and grace. These are a part of the Spiritual gifts, 1 Corinthians 12:27-31, given to the members of the body of Christ who are indwelled with the Holy Spirit through the Spiritual rebirth from above where Christ sits at the right hand of the Father making intercession for us, Romans 8:34. John 3:5 never mentions the word baptize, but says only by being born of water and spirit, which means water as living water (word of God) that no one can enter into the kingdom of God unless they are Spiritually renewed (born again) by the hearing of the word, which is Christ Jesus and by the Holy Spirit that came on them in the OT and indwells us as taught in the NT. Many do read into the passage a preconceived idea or theology, but baptism is never mentioned in this verse. Word is living water as described in John 4:10; 7:38; 1 John 5:6; Jeremiah 2:13; Isaiah 55:1-3 to name a few.

Messengers are created angels of God being spirit beings as Jesus was not a messenger of God or a created spirit of God, but the Son of God in whom God gave all power and authority, Matthew 28:18. Jesus never spoke apart from that which God gave Him to speak, John 12:49, 50. No messengers, being angels of God, can do anything on demand by others as God gives them what to do or what to speak. Hebrews 1:1-14 teaches us the supremacy of God's Son being made so much better than the angels who are God's messengers.

Jesus never baptized anyone in literal water that we know of and also instructed the Disciples to wait upon the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Acts chapter 1, and then commissioned them to go out preaching the Gospel (word/living water) and to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:16-20.

Being born from above means being born from the heavenly word of God, not dirty river water. When Jesus was baptized by John it was for the fulfillment of Messiah come as the Holy Spirit fell down on Him. Jesus had no need of being baptized in water for the remission of sin.

 

[for_his_glory]

Healing the sick, feeding the hungry, and raising the dead were good deeds in and of themselves, but the purpose of doing those things was not the good that He could do for men. The PURPOSE of those acts was to prove that He was who He said He was. It is demonstrated in at least two places that the Jewish leaders of the day knew this fact.

John 3:1 and following shows Nicodemus coming to Jesus and saying that I know you are from God, because no one can do what you have done except for God being with him. Because of what you have done, I know your message is from God.

John 6:30 the Jewish leaders ask Jesus point blank, you say you are from God, but what sign will you do to prove it. A messenger from God (in that day and time) could do signs and wonders on demand to prove his message's validity. If he could not do the sign on demand, he was a fake and was to be killed.

Today, no one can do signs and wonders "on demand", because we have the Word written down with proofs both within it, and in the secular history that back up the validity of the written Word. There is no more Biblically defined need for miracles today.

Matthew 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

This is the comission Jesus gave to His disciples as we read in Matthew 28:18-20 as they went out to the nations making disciples of all who would accept the word of God.

Mark 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. 15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. 19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. 20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Miracles and healing are for today just as they were when Jesus walked the earth during His ministry showing signs and wonders of God's mercy and grace. These are a part of the Spiritual gifts, 1 Corinthians 12:27-31, given to the members of the body of Christ who are indwelled with the Holy Spirit through the Spiritual rebirth from above where Christ sits at the right hand of the Father making intercession for us, Romans 8:34. John 3:5 never mentions the word baptize, but says only by being born of water and spirit, which means water as living water (word of God) that no one can enter into the kingdom of God unless they are Spiritually renewed (born again) by the hearing of the word, which is Christ Jesus and by the Holy Spirit that came on them in the OT and indwells us as taught in the NT. Many do read into the passage a preconceived idea or theology, but baptism is never mentioned in this verse. Word is living water as described in John 4:10; 7:38; 1 John 5:6; Jeremiah 2:13; Isaiah 55:1-3 to name a few.

Messengers are created angels of God being spirit beings as Jesus was not a messenger of God or a created spirit of God, but the Son of God in whom God gave all power and authority, Matthew 28:18. Jesus never spoke apart from that which God gave Him to speak, John 12:49, 50. No messengers, being angels of God, can do anything on demand by others as God gives them what to do or what to speak. Hebrews 1:1-14 teaches us the supremacy of God's Son being made so much better than the angels who are God's messengers.

Jesus never baptized anyone in literal water that we know of and also instructed the Disciples to wait upon the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Acts chapter 1, and then commissioned them to go out preaching the Gospel (word/living water) and to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:16-20.

Being born from above means being born from the heavenly word of God, not dirty river water. When Jesus was baptized by John it was for the fulfillment of Messiah come as the Holy Spirit fell down on Him. Jesus had no need of being baptized in water for the remission of sin.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Matthew 10 is the limited commission given to the Apostles. (Matthew 10:1-5)

Mark 16:17-20 the nearest plural antecedent of the pronouns 'they' and 'them' is "the eleven" (Apostles) verse 14.

Mark 16:20 "And they (Apostles) went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them (Apostles) , and confirming the word with signs following. Amen."

 

[for_his_glory]

2 Thess 1:8

--In flaming fire God will have vengeance upon those that "obey not the gospel"

--the gospel is the death burial and resurrection of Christ; 1 Cor 15:1-4

--Romans 6 in water baptism the old man of sin dies, is buried in a watery grave, then 'raised up' (resurrected) to walk in newness of life. A death, burial and resurrection takes place in water baptism and not in a sinner's prayer, faith only or any "spirit baptism".

=========

F.F. Bruce: "baptism in the New Testament is always baptism in water unless the context shows it to be something else; that is to say, the word is always to be understood literally unless the context indicates a figurative meaning” (Questions Answered, p. 106).

Eph 4:5; Rom 6:3-5; Col 2:12 literal immersion in water from which one is raised up from.

I do not accept Calvinistic teachings so I think we are done here as we are not going to agree and at this point just repeating ourselves. You have a good evening.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

If you are referring to FF Bruce, he was giving rules to proper hermeneutics, not a discourse of Calvinism.

What I quoted FF Bruce saying actually works against Calvinism and its claim that water baptism is not necessary to gaining salvation.

 

[Doug Brents]

John 3:5 never mentions the word baptize, but says only by being born of water and spirit, which means water as living water (word of God) that no one can enter into the kingdom of God unless they are Spiritually renewed (born again) by the hearing of the word, which is Christ Jesus and by the Holy Spirit that came on them in the OT and indwells us as taught in the NT. Many do read into the passage a preconceived idea or theology, but baptism is never mentioned in this verse. Word is living water as described in John 4:10; 7:38; 1 John 5:6; Jeremiah 2:13; Isaiah 55:1-3 to name a few.

Water in John 3:5 is the same water talked about in 1 Pet 3:21 and again in Eph 5:26. It is immersion into this water as described in Rom 6:1-5 and Col 2:11-15 where the Spirit of God takes action to remove our sins and add us to the Church.

Messengers are created angels of God being spirit beings as Jesus was not a messenger of God or a created spirit of God, but the Son of God in whom God gave all power and authority, Matthew 28:18. Jesus never spoke apart from that which God gave Him to speak, John 12:49, 50. No messengers, being angels of God, can do anything on demand by others as God gives them what to do or what to speak. Hebrews 1:1-14 teaches us the supremacy of God's Son being made so much better than the angels who are God's messengers.

Not all messengers are "created angels". I am a messenger of God, as I carry the message of the Gospel to everyone I meet. And yes, some of God's messengers were given the power to do "signs and wonders" on demand, like Moses with the hand to leprosy and the staff to snake signs.

Jesus never baptized anyone in literal water that we know of and also instructed the Disciples to wait upon the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Acts chapter 1, and then commissioned them to go out preaching the Gospel (word/living water) and to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:16-20.

Being born from above means being born from the heavenly word of God, not dirty river water. When Jesus was baptized by John it was for the fulfillment of Messiah come as the Holy Spirit fell down on Him. Jesus had no need of being baptized in water for the remission of sin.

Matt 28:16-20 is good, but Mark 16:16 is a little clearer. Jesus' immersion has no bearing on the immersion He commanded at the end of His ministry. He commanded his Apostles, and they the rest of the disciples, to go preach the Word, and all who believe and are immersed will be saved.

Consider Acts 2:38 for a minute. When the Jews said to Peter that basically, we believe what you are saying, but what do we need to do to be saved from the punishment for our crime? Peter could have said, "Nothing. Jesus did it all on the cross and when He was resurrected, so all you need to do is believe (which you have already done), and you will be forgiven." But that is not what He said. No, he said, "Repent and be immersed for the forgiveness of your sins, and then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." This is the first sermon preached in the newly arisen Kingdom of God. Peter's statement here has huge ramifications for the doctrine of the Kingdom from then on. And just as Jesus commanded him as He rose into Heaven, "He who believes and is immersed will be saved."