Faith is active, not passive. Ephesians 2:8-10

[Digger]

Today in the church system the faith has been redefined to mean a passive trust. Under the false gospel all one has to do to be saved is trust in the provision of what Jesus did on the cross.

If you subscribe to reformed theology then when you "confess, trust and receive" you believe that the righteousness of Jesus Christ is transferred to your account (Jesus obeyed for you), and all your sins are transferred to Jesus. God punished Jesus in your place thus the penalty for all your wrongdoing has been paid in full and when God sees you He sees the righteousness of Jesus. You are eternally secure because the wrath has already been poured out thus any sin you commit in the future has already been taken care of. (note:- If you read the Gospels you will find that Jesus didn't teach any of this)

If you subscribe to the holiness side of the church (Methodist, Nazarene ect.) God offsets your sinful dispositions just enough so that you can come to God. You also "confess, trust and receive" and are declared righteous but instead of Jesus obeying for you a process of sanctification begins whereby over time the remaining stain of sin within you is purged from you by God. In the meantime you are still covered by grace. (note:- If you read the Gospels you will find that Jesus didn't teach any of this)

Both systems of theology are very similar in the sense that they both consist of confess, trust and receive. They only really differ in the sense that the road to purity is taught differently. One has the cloak while the other has the gradual cleanup. Both systems teach that you get saved in your sins. You don't have to stop any sin before or after salvation. Stopping sin is God's responsibility and He will clean you up over time.

Both systems teach a passive faith. Faith is simply trusting in God and the work of Jesus Christ on the cross.

Yet what the Bible teaches about faith is completely different.

Faith is active. It is the working dynamic that puts to use the grace of God.

Everyone is familiar with Eph 2:8-9. It is the bulwark of the "you don't have to do anything gospel." Is that really what it is teaching? Let's take a look.


We are saved by grace through faith. Grace is the gift of God.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

We have access into this gift of God through faith.

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

the grace of God that brings salvation teaches us to deny ungodliness and live holy.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Thus we cooperate and become workers together with God, yielding to His influence on our heart. If we do not work together with God then we receive the grace of God in vain.

2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

This is why Jesus said that one must be a doer of the word and not a hearer only.

Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

James echoed Jesus sentiment when he wrote that we must be doers of the word and not hearers only right after he stated that we must lay aside our evil ways and receive with meekness the implanted word which can save our souls.

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

All through the Bible faith is active, never passive.

It was by faith that Noah took action when God offered him grace by warning him of the judgment and instructed him on how to build the ark.

Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

It was by faith that Abraham obeyed God.

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

This is because faith is substantial. It is not simply some passive acknowledgment or belief. It is the driving force to action.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

This why it is through faith that we are saved. It is through an active, substantial, working dynamic that we put to use the grace of God.

This is why Peter would write that we purify our souls through obedience to the truth.

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

Faith purifies the heart. We are saved by grace through faith.

Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Not of the works of the law.

Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Not of any works done apart from God.

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The Pharisees boasted in the law yet broke it.

Rom 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
Rom_2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

They appeared righteous outwardly but inside they were filthy.

Mat 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Mat 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

This is why righteousness can never come by the law. The law can only serve to cleanse the outside of the cup but it leaves the heart untouched.

Mat_23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Faith on the other hand works by love.

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

It purifies the heart.

Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

It is through faith that works by love that we establish the law in our heart.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

This is why Paul would write that love fulfills the law.

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Jesus came to fulfill the law.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Our righteousness must exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees.

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

The scribes and the Pharisees made the grievous error of thinking that by simply keeping an outward form they could be righteous. Yet righteousness comes from the heart. When we obey from the heart the doctrine of Jesus Christ we become servants of righteousness.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

It is through faith that we establish the law in our hearts and thus fulfill the righteous requirements of the law.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Those who are walking after the Spirit by faith thus need no law.

Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Those who walk after the Spirit by faith are a law unto themselves.

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

All of this is what Jesus was teaching in the Sermon on the Mount.

Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Mat 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Mat 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Mat 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

Thus Ephesians 2:8-10 is a beautiful passage which describes how it is by grace we are saved, a gift of God, that we put to use by an active obedient faith, by which we become a worker together with God, His workmanship in us, not of ourselves.

God is the author of salvation to all those who obey Him. If we yield He will do a truly magnificent work in us. If we rebel then we will perish.

The scriptures harmonize beautifully. Praise God.

 

[Danus]

:o wow! ...It took me 1.5 minutes to read all this.

Smoking a cigarette would have taken away just as much of my time on earth, but I believe I'd have gotten more out of that, and I don't even smoke.

 

[Webb]

Lots of smoke (and I don't mean cigarette smoke) but no answers to the young man's post.

 

[Digger]

One scripture that I mentioned that I have found very enlightening is this one.

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

The purification is the result. The obedience through the Spirit is the mechanic by which the result is obtained.

This is why God is not the author of salvation of those who disobey Him.

If one does not obey then there will be no resulting purity.

Jesus came to purify a people.

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Here is a verse which very specifically relates salvation to obedience.

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

It is through obedience that salvation is wrought. You see Paul beseeching Timothy to take heed and make sure he continues in the things of sound doctrine and that if he does he will save himself and them that hear them.

1Ti 4:15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.
1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Jesus made a similar statement about being made clean through the word and followed right after by saying one must abide (stay, continue, endure).

Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

 

[Webb]

Digger--I've quickly scanned your web. Some items I missed seeing. Where do you stand on such matters as "what must I do to be saved?'' and the Lord's supper etc?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I think you've got the wrong angle on the very real problem of people using the grace of God as a license to sin. Not every sinning Christian is doing that.


What does this scripture suggest?

"...we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience, once your obedience is complete." (2 Cor. 10:6 NIV1984)



...and your post is waaaaaay too long. You'd be amazed at how much more effective a short concise post is. And only use one or two scriptures that best represent your argument. Then as the discussion progresses introduce the other scriptures to strengthen and detail your argument.

 

[Former Christian]

Digger

LOL I’m laughing at the initial reactions to your long post. Most people hate long posts. I figure it’s because they haven’t really much to say and they hate to read. Typical of modern culture. Those of us who post more than a couple hundred words are not of this world. We belong a couple centuries back.

My only question in regard to your long post is, how did you do it? Whenever I try to post anything over 10,000 characters it won’t post and I have to divide into two or more posts.

Since I only wish to ask a question, this is going to be an unusually short post for me.

My question to you on the subject of your post is, do you think that one is saved by their own faith in God or in Jesus Christ?

FC

 

[Saves by Grace]

What was the point of this thread? I'm new here so I'm trying to figure out if somebody disagrees with faith not being active.

My thought.. My faith is active because I was already saved by grace alone. What I do is a result and an appreciation of God's free gift, working out my faith brings me joy because I do it just like when a child obeys a father, out of love and gratitude of what's already been done for me.

How else do you show the change which has taken place!?

 

[Digger]

Digger--I've quickly scanned your web. Some items I missed seeing. Where do you stand on such matters as "what must I do to be saved?'' and the Lord's supper etc?

It's not my web but of a dear brother in Christ.

What must I do to be saved? That is a good question. Many will answer that question by using one or three verses, isolate them and then use them as the foundation of their doctrine.

This exact question is asked several times in Scripture.

Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Act 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Act 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
Act 2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

In those two passages we see the answer given that one must "believe" and that one must "repent" and be "baptised."

Jesus said...

Mar_16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

What does believe actually mean?

The above passage is very interesting because it contrasts "believing with not believing." The two greek words used are.

Believeth - G4100 - pisteuō - From G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.
Believeth Not - G569 - apisteō- to be unbelieving, that is, (transitively) disbelieve, or (by implication) disobey: - believe not.

"Not believing" is the same as disobedience or unfaithfulness. We see this contrast with what happened with Israel in the wilderness.

Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
Heb 3:16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
Heb 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
Heb 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
Heb 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

unbelief - apistia - G570 - From G571; faithlessness, that is, (negatively) disbelief (want of Christian faith), or (positively) unfaithfulness (disobedience): - unbelief.

Those who fell in the wilderness believed in God. They knew He was real. They witnessed the plagues and the deliverance from Egypt. Yet they perished because of disobedience.

The same comparison is again made by Jesus in John chapter 3.

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Believeth - G4100 - pisteuō- to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.
believeth not - G544 - apeitheō - to disbelieve (wilfully and perversely): - not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving.

The point I am making is simply that those who believe obey and those who do not believe disobey. This fits the pattern of scripture throughout and the modern teaching that "belief" and "faith" is passive is the complete opposite of what the Bible teaches.

There are so many people who think they are saved because they trust in Jesus. That is where their faith ends. They have never truly repented and forsaken their sin. They have never become a doer of the word. They do not strive to enter in the strait gate and narrow way like Jesus said to do. Instead they have been totally convinced that all these other things are optional and that all salvation consists of is receiving the package and to do that they just confess, trust and receive.

So what must we do to be saved? We must believe. Those who truly believe have repented of their wickedness and they have accessed the grace of God through faith. If we truly believe we will abide in the teachings of Jesus Christ, obeying His commandments, and it is through that dynamic faith that God will do the most incredible work in us. He will quicken our Spirit thus establishing that broadband link to Himself. We are to be lights in a darkened world.

Pro_28:18 Whoso walketh uprightly shall be saved: but he that is perverse in his ways shall fall at once.

 

[Digger]

Digger

LOL I’m laughing at the initial reactions to your long post. Most people hate long posts. I figure it’s because they haven’t really much to say and they hate to read. Typical of modern culture. Those of us who post more than a couple hundred words are not of this world. We belong a couple centuries back.

My only question in regard to your long post is, how did you do it? Whenever I try to post anything over 10,000 characters it won’t post and I have to divide into two or more posts.

Since I only wish to ask a question, this is going to be an unusually short post for me.

My question to you on the subject of your post is, do you think that one is saved by their own faith in God or in Jesus Christ?

FC

I just wrote and hit post and it worked. Maybe the posting limits have changed since you tried that. I wouldn't know.

You ask if I think that one is saved by their own faith in God or in Jesus Christ.

Paul wrote this...

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

My understanding is that the faith we walk by is the same faith that Jesus possessed. Faith is that working principle behind action. Our faith depicts who we are and who we belong to. This is why God imputes us righteous by faith.

We see this in Romans 4 that Abraham's faith was like I just described, it was the working principle behind his action. He was fully pursuaded (believed) and thus performed. That is the sort of faith that God will reckon us as righteous. Not this dead passive faith preached in the pulpit.

Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Abraham had the obedience of faith.
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Abraham had the works of faith.
Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

Abraham had the steps of faith.
Rom_4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

The grave error in the church system is that because Ephesians 2:8-9 says "not of works" they have thrown the works of faith right out the window with the works of the law. Thus striving, counting the cost, enduring, abiding, holding steadfast, obedience has been replaced with "confess, trust and receive." The ministers of Satan, who appear as lambs yet speak the language of the dragon, have deceived millions.

When people buy into this delusion it is very hard for them to come out and find that true repentance and faith that the Bible speaks of.

The religious system was totally deceived in the days of Jeremiah, in the days of Jesus, and it is no different in the present day. Everywhere you look today a satanic gospel which totally redefines faith, grace, repentance and salvation is preached.

 

[Digger]

I think you've got the wrong angle on the very real problem of people using the grace of God as a license to sin. Not every sinning Christian is doing that.


What does this scripture suggest?

"...we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience, once your obedience is complete." (2 Cor. 10:6 NIV1984)



...and your post is waaaaaay too long. You'd be amazed at how much more effective a short concise post is. And only use one or two scriptures that best represent your argument. Then as the discussion progresses introduce the other scriptures to strengthen and detail your argument.

Perhaps it is way to long for most people but I like to be very careful to support everything with scripture. If people do not want to read it they simply do not have to. I am sure Paul's letters were to long for many and that the Sermon on the Mount was too much to handle as well.

Grace has been redefined in the church system to simply be a "free gift" and a "cover" for sin. It may not be taught blatantly as a license to sin but in practical effect that is exactly what it is.

While grace is a free gift it is much more than that. It is the divine influence of God on the heart. Grace teaches us. We put grace into effect through an obedient working faith. If we do not do that then grace is received in vain or to no effect. Purity will not be produced.

Grace - charis - G5485 - graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Heb_12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

What Satan has done by redefining faith and grace is totally remove the working dynamic that produces purity from the Gospel. It is a very subtle and dangerous deception and so many are beheld by its sway.

Instead of attacking things like the resurrection, or the divinity of Jesus, the attack is a much more subtle attack on doctrines. Satan knows that the only way one can approach God and be reconciled through the blood of Christ is through repentance and faith. Thus that is where the Gospel message has been perverted. It has been going on a long time too.

Thus today we end up with a false gospel that teaches that you get saved through making a decision and believing in some facts and then God does everything else and we just wait on Him to finish His work in us. This is why when you go into any church the gospel that is presented is cushioned. Every sermon about obedience and being a doer of the word is in the context that these are things you can do in order to get all the blessings. They have disconnected it all from salvation. Thus all the commands in scripture become optional.

Strip all the fluff away and you have a gospel which is teaching, "Ye shall not surely die" and "you cannot obey God." That is it in a nutshell.

Where the Bible teaches that the old man is crucified with Christ in repentance and then the new believer is raised up with Christ to walk in victory over sin and the devil having escaped the corruption in the world through lust, the church system brings the old man into the kingdom and tried to reform him bit by bit. This is why the church system is full of tapes, book, seminars, programs ect. Everyone is still in bondage to their sin because of the false message. Their eyes are blinded and they do not understand the Gospel.



Anyway regarding 2 Cor 10:6.

2Co 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
2Co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
2Co 10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

Our war is not of in the natural but in the spiritual. This is why we must put on the whole armor of God (Eph 6). If we do this we will be walking in the light and will be able to earnestly contend for the truth and we will be able to pull down the strongholds. There are many strongholds in the minds of many who profess Christ today.

Some are things like "you are born a sinner" and the "Jesus was punished by God in your place" both of which when held redefine what the Bible teaches. For example if Jesus was punished in your place and paid the penalty for all your sins then all your future sins are covered. Thus the doctrine of "unconditional" eternal security will result.

The "Penal Substitution" view of the atonement is one such stronghold. Likewise, if you are born a sinner and you sin because you are a sinner then the problem of sin is likened to a disease. Personal responsibility is thrown out the window and repentance and conversion is redefined as simply confessing your natural condition rather than a godly sorrow working the change of mind which causes one to forsake all known sin.

"Revenge disobedience" is simply referring to coming against sin. It does not literally mean to go and punish everyone who is sinning.

We see the same language used by Paul in 2 Cor 7:11 when he speaks of what godly sorrow produces.

2Co 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

The saints of God go out into the world preaching the Gospel and they thus convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgment.

Now of course one cannot do this "unless one's obedience is fulfilled." An adulterer cannot preach against adultery while committing the same for example.

1Cor 10:6 is echoing what Jesus taught.

Mat_7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

2Co 10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

We have to get our own house in order first.

 

[Former Christian]

Digger

Are you saying that if one becomes a believer, then sins, then dies, he is lost?

FC

 

[Digger]

Digger

Are you saying that if one becomes a believer, then sins, then dies, he is lost?

FC

Jesus clearly said that those who sin are slaves to sin (Joh 8:34). He came to set men free from sin (Joh 8:36). He came to save us from our sins (Mat 1:21), to purify and redeem us from all iniquity (Tit 2:14). John wrote that he who sins is of the devil (1Joh 3:8) and that those born of God do not commit sin (1Joh 3:9).

Based on the Bible I would say that if you sin you will perish. Being saved from sin cannot mean that one occasionally slips into willful rebellion, spits in God's face and then comes to their senses and obeys until the next time. The heart in such a person would not be right. A heart has either been purified or it hasn't. Light and darkness do not mix.

It was one act of rebellion that Adam and Eve committed to get them kicked out of the garden and it only takes one act of rebellion to severe us from God.

Reconciliation back to God is through repentance and faith via the the blood of Jesus Christ.

It is in repentance that a godly sorrow works a genuine change of mind (2Cor 7:10). In this process a sinner is broken on the rock of Christ, they come to an understanding of the evil have done, how they have not loved their neighbor or God. They are horrified, a great fear of God falls over them and a very powerful desire to choose righteousness over sin forms (2Cor 7:11). They are then able to turn back to God having forsaken their rebellion. Repentance purges the rebellion from a sinner.

All this is done through a work of faith. One first believes that God is real (Heb 11:6) and then yields to the light that has been given (Joh 1:9). Thus we come to God through repentance and faith and throw ourselves at His feet just like the Prodigal Son or the Ninevites, not presuming anything.

God then responds by quickening the new believer (Eph 2:5, Col 2:12-13) while they are still yet dead in their sin. The new believer who has forsaken their wickedness is now walking in the light thus they are then cleansed by the blood of all their past sins (1Joh 1:7, Rom 3:25).

They have in effect gone through the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins (Mar 1:4, Luk 3:3) and have crucified their old man/flesh with its passions and desires with Christ (Gal 5:24, Rom 6:6, Mat 16:24-25). They are set free from the bondage of sin because the quickening (Eph 2:5, Col 2:12-13) is the power of God that enables someone to live in victory and keep the old man crucified (Rom 8:13).

This is salvation. Not the this horrible deception being preached everywhere. I cannot find any preachers who understand any of this yet it is so clearly laid out in the Bible. It is so very clear that even a child could see it.

So if someone who is genuinely saved from the bondage of sin once again turns back to rebellion are they still saved you ask? There is no possible way. Grace does not cover sin, grace purifies the heart, hence we are purified through obedience to the truth and we are defiled through disobedience.

There are very strong warnings in Scripture about returning back to sin after being cleansed.

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Peter is clearly speaking about someone who came out of defilement and then went back. They are in a much worse position than originally.

Jesus seemed to allude to a similar thing when He was speaking about casting our evil spirits.

Luk 11:24 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
Luk 11:25 And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.
Luk 11:26 Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

While there is no mention, in this example, of the man abiding in the truth, he was obviously cleansed yet when the evil spirit came back the assault was more powerful. This may be an allusion as to how the powers of darkness work or simply a judgment of God on those who treat grace cheaply.

A similar warning is also given in Hebrews 6.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

These people who fell away were partakers of the Holy Ghost whom God gives to those who obey Him (Acts 5:32). Thus they came in and then fell away. The problem with them is that it says they cannot be renewed unto repentance because they, in effect, re-crucified Christ.

Hebrews 10 has a similar warning about willful sin.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Again, it is a reference to despising the grace of God. In Numbers 15:30-31 it talks about how there was no sacrifice for willful transgression because it was despising God. A very serious thing indeed.

Num 15:30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Num 15:31 Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.

So I think the Bible is very clear in regards to the seriousness of willful sin. It is extremely dangerous for the soul.

Yet a careful reading of Heb 6 speaks of a "falling away" rather willful sin thus I think a second repentance is possible although unlikely.

In Revelation 2 and 3 the Churches what had fallen away are called to repentance. They are called to do their "first works again."

Rev_2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Thus mercy is available.

To summarise, a Christian who willfully sins is not in a saved state. They simply cannot be, if God gives them a pass then He would give everyone a pass and we know God is not a respecter of persons. It was just one sin that got Adam and Eve condemned. All it takes is one sin today.

Satan still uses the same old lie of "ye shall not surely die."

Jesus Christ came to save us from our sins, not save us in them. Light and darkness do not mix. One has either been purified or that have not.

It may not be the message many want to hear as it is the total opposite of "confess, trust and receive" but Jesus did say that the way is narrow and that few would find it.

Luk 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

 

[Webb]

You apparently believe baptism is essential to being saved. Is that Spirit or water baptism? Also how often did the early church take the Lord's supper?

 

[Former Christian]

Digger

Do you think you're sinless? If so, how long have you been so? And since I sin on a daily basis, what do you think of me?

FC

 

[Danus]

What was the point of this thread? I'm new here so I'm trying to figure out if somebody disagrees with faith not being active.

My thought.. My faith is active because I was already saved by grace alone. What I do is a result and an appreciation of God's free gift, working out my faith brings me joy because I do it just like when a child obeys a father, out of love and gratitude of what's already been done for me.

How else do you show the change which has taken place!?

The point of this thread by the OP, is to express a twisted ultra-conservative view of Infused righteousness which leads to salvation.

In other words, this is about a theology that says we are not saved until we are purely and holy righteous, and we can't be purely and holy righteous until we come to God in repentance, then he agrees to work with us, and as long as we tow the line, stay in line, don't get out of line and produce good works...then and only then are we saved....or maybe not.

Under this idea no one can know they are saved. Fact is, they my never be good enough. Under this theology only a very few are saved, but one of the complaints being made by the OP, is that the church today is also at fault for not telling it's mindless congregations the truth and keeping some of the potently perfect righteous people from even starting the process.

This is something similarly thought by the church by the mid-evil times. By the 1500s "the church" also sold something called "an indulgence" which you could buy for a full or partial pardon of your rotten self. ...and people did buy them. They where not aloud to even own a bible in those days, and if they did it's was written in Latin and did most no good, if they could even read at all. So they got this same type of theological nonsense garbage by the authority of the church itself. And now we see a portion of it still exist today.

The reformation attempted to change this. It did change it, but not quite the way it was intended. The reformation was intended to bring the gospel back, which it did, but bring it back to the church at that time. Instead what it did was free the gospel and placed it in the hands of the people where it belongs. The church simply followed, but lagged behind in doing so.

So today we have the orthodox denominations, which the OP mentioned a few, but we also have some fringe groups and cults as well.

I any case, the gospels are Gods word to his people, you and I. They are pretty simple. they are not coded and as anyone can see they don't square with what has been butchered up and re-pasted in this OP.

I like how you put it.

.. My faith is active because I was already saved by grace alone. What I do is a result and an appreciation of God's free gift, working out my faith brings me joy because I do it just like when a child obeys a father, out of love and gratitude of what's already been done for me.

...:yes I totally Agree what you said here is "Imputed righteousness" and this is what the bible says. The term Imputed righteousness is clearly stated over and over again. Nowhere in the bible do we find the word, or term "Infused."

 

[Webb]

Hi Danus

I read the same post and didn't see your conclusion .

 

[Digger]

Digger

Do you think you're sinless? If so, how long have you been so? And since I sin on a daily basis, what do you think of me?

FC

I have been set free from the bondage of sin.

If you sin then you are still under the dominion of sin. By sin I am speaking in the context of 1Jon 4:4, Jam 4:17, Jam 1:14-15, I am not talking about falling short in the sense of making a mistake or misjudgment. I am talking about willful transgression, outright rebellion to God.


Enslavement to Sin

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.


Being set free from Sin.

Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

 

[Digger]

The point of this thread by the OP, is to express a twisted ultra-conservative view of Infused righteousness which leads to salvation.

You didn't understand a word I wrote if that is what you think.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

this is about a theology that says we are not saved until we are purely and holy righteous, and we can't be purely and holy righteous until we come to God in repentance, then he agrees to work with us, and as long as we tow the line, stay in line, don't get out of line and produce good works...then and only then are we saved....or maybe not.

God counts us righteous by faith. He looks at the heart.

Rom_4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised:that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

That right there is how God declares us righteous. I don't really know what you are talking about.

Faith works by love and the just (righteous) walk by faith. It is very simple.

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

We are simply to love God with all our hear, soul and mind and love our neighbor as ourselves. This can only happen through genuine repentance and faith by which we can put to use the grace of God, working together with Him, and the result is purity of heart.

Very simple. No mystery. It is what the Bible plainly teaches.

Any person who truly repents and forsakes their wicked ways and comes to God with a broken heart and humble God will forgive them. God will quicken them back to life and wash them clean through the blood of Christ. When we do this and God responds we are then able to serve God acceptably with reverent fear unto every good work.

It has nothing to do with towing some line, trying to maintain some list of do's and dont's. It is by a faith that works by love. It is about having a pure heart, having no guile. We walk in this love justified, sanctified, and we grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Under this idea no one can know they are saved. Fact is, they my never be good enough.

You simply do not understand. We do know. When we obey the doctrine according to godliness and forsake our wickedness and cast ourselves on Christ and God quickens our spirit. We know. God is a living God.

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

1Jn 3:19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
1Jn 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
1Jn 3:21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

1Jn 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

You are correct that "under what I am saying" only a few are saved.

Jesus said as much...

Luk 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Indulgences, theological nonsense, infused righteousness? I think you read all that into my post through some sort of theological filter that you are in bondage to.

The imputed righteousness of the reformation is heretical satanic lie. Instead of God counting us righteous by faith the reformers teach that "Jesus obeyed for you" and that his track record becomes yours. That is absolute nonsense and Jesus taught no such thing anywhere. I really do not understand why people so easily buy into such nonsense. To believe that you have to ignore the Bible.

Such a nonsensical teaching is not found anywhere in the Bible, it is only gleaned through conjecture by misapplying a few verses like 2Cor5:21 or Rom 3:22. Where does it say anywhere in the Bible clearly and concisely that Jesus obeyed for you? Where does it say anywhere in the Bible that the obedient track record of Jesus is credited to your account? It doesn't.

Substitution, moral transfer and sins forgiven in advance is deadly poison for the soul.






Jesus did not obey for you. You have to obey what he told you to do. Jesus was our example and we are to follow in His steps.

Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

 

[Danus]

You didn't understand a word I wrote if that is what you think.

Digger, hardly anyone understood what you wrote. You criticized mainstream orthodox Christian denominations and theology and then said (unclear) you are free from sin. You pulled a ton of scripture and piece-milled it together to make your claims.

Pious Double talk...now your going to say that no one understands you as you back peddle to redefine your words.