Faith is active, not passive. Ephesians 2:8-10

[Danus]

Pious nonsense?

That is a real shame and it makes me really sad to read that.

I'm just in here reading at this point, but allow me to apologize for using the term "Pious nonsense". That was pretty good, but it does not fully explain what I meant.

Love the scripture BTW, all good and true, but what I mean to say is that the theology you lay; The meaning you hold of the good scripture you are using, is a lie stuffed with the skin of the truth.

The scripture you use is the truth, (The skin) your interpretation of is it the lie. (The stuffing). That's as honest as I can be.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Sinless perfection is simply a straw man. Sinless perfection implies never making a mistake or erring in judgment. People then hold that standard up as impossible to achieve and then use that as an excuse that grace covers willful sin.

But the question is, why do you assume all people who say that Christians won't be sinless are using that "as an excuse that grace covers willful sin"? That's not very fair at all.

I know the difference between a person sinning in weakness and fear and ignorance, and a person sinning because they don't want, or care about the grace of God. But you don't seem to know the difference at all and have broad stroked all sin in all Christians into the category of the sin unto death.

I'm guessing you're a relatively new believer, or you simply have not been tested in the faith yet...or both. Come to your senses so that when you fail you will NOT receive the judgment you have been doling out here.

That is why so many people will attack what I wrote and will not make the distinction between presumptuous sin and an error in judgment.

You have not made that distinction yourself, Digger. You think you have, but you have not. I suspect you don't truly know the difference. Your doctrine is being 'attacked' because you are quite plainly saying if you still sin you are doing it presumptuously. I don't play the 'judging' card very often, but you got a serious case of Matthew 7:2 hanging over your head:

2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." (Matthew 7:2 NIV1984)

What this means is when you fail because of ignorance, or fear--and you surely will one day--God's comfort will not be there for you. You will be allowed to experience the same condemnation that you have served out to others. But then, hopefully, you will learn your lesson and be healed.

Remember, this Matthew 7 passage about condemning others is part of Jesus' 'few and the many' sermon. And you are not living up to it, so what group are you in danger of being identified with in the end?

So stop aiming your guns at all Christians who say Christians will surely struggle with sin as they are tested and tried according to God's will. I actually share the 'few and the many' truth myself very often. The difference between me and you, though, is I know from my own experience with failure that not all people who sin are doing it because they purposely have chosen to do that. And maybe, like me, God will have to put you through some serious trials to prove it to you. I'm speaking my heart right now in the interest of rescuing you, not destroying you. God's grace is wonderful. But you can't hose down the entire Christian community with your misguided doctrine and think you'll enjoy that grace. Won't happen.

 

[Digger]

But the question is, why do you assume all people who say that Christians won't be sinless are using that "as an excuse that grace covers willful sin"? That's not very fair at all.

I know the difference between a person sinning in weakness and fear and ignorance, and a person sinning because they don't want, or care about the grace of God. But you don't seem to know the difference at all and have broad stroked all sin in all Christians into the category of the sin unto death.

Those who sin are slaves to sin.

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Those who sin are of the devil.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.



Those who abide in Christ do not sin.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Those born of God do not produce sin.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.



Jesus came to save people from their sins.
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Jesus gave Himself to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify a people.
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Jesus can make you truly free.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

When we crucify our old man with Christ and are raised up by that same power that raised Jesus from the dead we are set free from sin. Thus we no longer serve sin because if we serve sin we are slaves to sin. The sin stops.
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Being set free from sin we do not let it reign.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

This is because sin does not have dominion over us because we are under grace.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Grace which teaches us.
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Grace which quickens us.
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

We stand in the grace which we access through a genuine faith. We don't access grace to fall. We walk in victory.
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

God gives us grace for obedience, because it is being a doer of the word, a worker together with God, so that grace is effectual.
Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

We walk by this power keeping out bodies in subjection, not yielding to the passions of the flesh in disobedience to God, rather we walk in total victory.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.



That is what the Bible plainly says. Your disagreement is with God. People can use human reasoning and the traditions of men all they want to try and find some way to rationalize continued sinning while remaining saved but they are simply deceived. Satan teaches "Ye shall not surely die" and he appears as a lamb, a wolf in the clothing of a sheep, speaking the language of the dragon.

If someone is sinning in fear, weakness and ignorance then they need to yield to the light they have and go through a time of godly sorrow which will work a genuine repentance. Where they can lay aside all their filthiness and overflow of weakness, where they can be broken on the stone of Christ, where the fallow of the ground can be broken up. Then and only then will God raise that person up to newness of life and quicken their spirit back to life.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What your argument boils down to is you are not saved until, and only while, you are sinless.

That is a false gospel.

 

[Digger]

What your argument boils down to is you are not saved until, and only while, you are sinless.

That is a false gospel.

You believe that salvation is simply being released from the condemnation of sin while still being enslaved to it. That is not salvation.

Salvation does not only consist of having your past sins remitted but also consists of being set free from the bondage of sin. You can clearly see that in the verses I have above, all verses you simply ignore.

To say the things you say clearly means you have a form of godliness yet you deny the power of God. You deny that God delivers people from the bondage of sin when they come to salvation.

2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

You deny the power of God to actually set you free from the dominion of sin in this life.

Whosoever is born of God does not sin because they keep themselves via the methodology Paul teaches in Romans 6 and 8. Yet you believe they do sin. Who is telling the truth? You or John?

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

I am not sure how you deal with verses like the one above. You either have to completely pretend it does not exist or you would have to twist it into saying something other than what it plainly says. Your contention is that "whosover is born of God still sins." Can't you see how you theology forces you to deny the teachings of scripture?

We are to arm ourselves likeminded with Christ, for if we suffer in the flesh with Christ we have ceased from sin. Who is telling the truth? You or Peter?
1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

You speak many words but they are not of God because they are the opposite of what the Bible teaches.

In your mind the prodigal son is saved while he is still wallowing with the pigs.

In your mind Nineveh would be saved by just confessing their sin while not giving it up.

In your mind you would have Israel being saved while still in bondage in Egypt.

Look at these verses again.

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

If the son set you free you are no longer the servant of sin which means you do not sin because whomever produces sin in their life is a slave of sin. Those are the words of Jesus, not mine. You are denying Jesus.

Jesus came to open our eyes, He came to deliver us from the power of Satan unto God.

Act_26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

When we repent and and turn back to God our sins can then be forgiven, not before.

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

A person cannot repent of their sin and continue to commit those sins. That is not real repentance. Nineveh, Zacchaeus and the prodigal son are examples of repentance. The rebellion stops.

 

[Webb]

Digger

I've asked you this question before and don't think I got an answer, if so I didn't see it, so I'll ask again: Can a Christian sin? If so, what should he do?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You believe that salvation is simply being released from the condemnation of sin while still being enslaved to it. That is not salvation.

When a person believes they are set free from their sins. Our goal and purpose now is to live up to the perfect standing before God we received when we believed:

7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. (1 Cor. 5:7 NIV1984)

Salvation does not only consist of having your past sins remitted but also consists of being set free from the bondage of sin. You can clearly see that in the verses I have above, all verses you simply ignore.

We're not ignoring them. We understand them in the light of the WHOLE counsel of scripture. You're the one who has to ignore the scriptures we're posting here in order for your doctrine to remain intact.

To say the things you say clearly means you have a form of godliness yet you deny the power of God. You deny that God delivers people from the bondage of sin when they come to salvation.

Sin does not categorically signify that a person is in bondage to sin. Everyone who has genuinely received God's gracious gift of the forgiveness of sins stands perfect before God. From there a person is in the process of being made holy.

For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." (Hebrews 10:14 NIV1984)

Don't close your eyes to it. It plainly says those who are in the process of being made holy have been made forever perfect by the one sacrifice of Christ.

2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

You deny the power of God to actually set you free from the dominion of sin in this life.

Whosoever is born of God does not sin because they keep themselves via the methodology Paul teaches in Romans 6 and 8. Yet you believe they do sin. Who is telling the truth? You or John?

Why didn't Paul use his own methodology? According to you he isn't even saved yet and set free from the bondage of sin when we see him sinning against the High Priest in Acts .

'4 Those who were standing near Paul said, “How dare you insult God’s high priest!”

5 Paul replied, “Brothers, I did not realize that he was the high priest; for it is written: ‘Do not speak evil about the ruler of your people.’ ” ' (Acts 23:4-5 NIV1984)

You have no choice but to say Paul was not saved and still in bondage to sin because he sinned. See? Saved people really do sin. Sin doesn't categorically mean you are unsaved and in bondage to sin. Stop judging everybody this way.

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

And so, Paul stands condemned according to your interpretation of this verse.

I am not sure how you deal with verses like the one above. You either have to completely pretend it does not exist or you would have to twist it into saying something other than what it plainly says. Your contention is that "whosover is born of God still sins." Can't you see how you theology forces you to deny the teachings of scripture?

As long as you think sinning means sinless perfection then that's how you will continue to interpret the verse.

We are to arm ourselves likeminded with Christ, for if we suffer in the flesh with Christ we have ceased from sin. Who is telling the truth? You or Peter?
1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

This is a process. Our sufferings are working victory for us over sin. This same Peter speaks about this 'increasing measure' of obedience as we add the qualities of the Spirit to our faith here:

5...add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ." (2 Peter 1:5-8 NIV1984)

Are you going to close your eyes once again in order to preserve your doctrine...and your pride? Do you have the humility to admit you did not know the whole counsel of scripture when you came to your erroneous doctrinal conclusion?

You speak many words but they are not of God because they are the opposite of what the Bible teaches.

You speak false words because they don't represent the whole counsel of what the Bible teaches. Perhaps the defining mark of false doctrine is the fact that it doesn't consider the whole counsel of scripture.

In your mind the prodigal son is saved while he is still wallowing with the pigs.

Maybe he is, maybe he is not. We don't know. The story does not record whether or not he walked in faith prior to him leaving the farm.

In your mind Nineveh would be saved by just confessing their sin while not giving it up.

Not in my mind. True saving faith produces a change of mind about sin. Not sinless perfection as you are suggesting, but a determination to progress in faith in ever-increasing glory.

"...we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit." (2 Cor. 3: NIV1984)

Good for you if you became sinlessly perfect when you believed. The rest of us are growing up into the glory of Christ--glory to glory.

In your mind you would have Israel being saved while still in bondage in Egypt.

It's an illustration. If the story is about the Israelites literal salvation why are they still sinning after God delivers them out of their bondage in Egypt?

Look at these verses again.

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Minus the whole counsel of scripture misguided souls like yourself will think this means the evidence of salvation is sinless perfection, not a growing up into the grace we received when we believed.

If the son set you free you are no longer the servant of sin which means you do not sin because whomever produces sin in their life is a slave of sin. Those are the words of Jesus, not mine. You are denying Jesus.

You are denying the whole counsel of scripture.

Jesus came to open our eyes, He came to deliver us from the power of Satan unto God.

Act_26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

When we repent and and turn back to God our sins can then be forgiven, not before.

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

A person cannot repent of their sin and continue to commit those sins. That is not real repentance. Nineveh, Zacchaeus and the prodigal son are examples of repentance. The rebellion stops.

Then that means Paul did not really repent of his sins as evidenced by his sin in Acts 23 against the High Priest. (I'm making a mental note of the lame excuses you're going to make for Paul's sin in your next post.) Somehow you're going to excuse his sin and make it an exception, all the while refusing to give the rest of us that liberty. (Just watch, folks).


10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings (remember the suffering that leads to obedience in 1 Peter?), becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.

12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. (Phil. 3:10-14 NIV1984)

 

[Digger]

Digger

I've asked you this question before and don't think I got an answer, if so I didn't see it, so I'll ask again: Can a Christian sin? If so, what should he do?

Sin is a choice so a Christian can sin. What should he do? He should not sin. If a profession Christian is sinning then he needs to repent and do his first works.

Read my previous posts where I have addressed this issue thoroughly, I have shown clearly what the Bible teaches about, repentance, sin, faith, grace and salvation.

 

[Digger]

Jethro.

Addressing you is not productive. I need to dust my feet off because you hold your theology supreme over what the Bible plainly says.

Act 23:3 Then said Paul unto him, God shall smite thee, thou whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law?
Act 23:4 And they that stood by said, Revilest thou God's high priest?
Act 23:5 Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people.

Paul did that in ignorance so to try and draw a comparison of that sin with the sins of the flesh in Gal 5, Eph 5, 1Cor6 is not rightly dividing scripture. Not in the slightest.

This scripture fits what you do with the material I post.

Jas 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

I post clear scripture which directly contradicts the common teaching in the churches. I could not be clearer. People look at the contradiction, ignore it, and misdirect with another scripture quoted out of context.

I then respond addressing the scripture quoted out of context then point the reader back to the original scripture. Wash, rinse and repeat.


I say that Christian's stop sinning and keep themselves.

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

You have to completely ignore what John wrote in that verse. In your mind you have to pretend it doesn't say what it say. Exactly like what Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses do with scriptures that contradict their dogma. They think they are correct too and hold dogma above the plain teaching of scripture.

Here is another scripture you have to pretend does not exist or twist it into meaning something other than what it plainly says.

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

When we die with Christ in repentance and crucify the old man we are to cease from sin. It is not hard to understand but adherence to Augustinian strongholds like that of "original sin" compel people to reject the Bible.

Here is another passage the majority of professing Christianity has to twist and explain away because it contradicts their false religion.

1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Modern Christianity, across the board, teaches that the sin never stops in total contradiction to the Bible. They will hold to the Romans wretch, Paul the chief of sinners, and 1Joh1:8 to support such a notion and simply ignore and twist what I have quoted above.

Jesus said "go and sin no more" and the professing Christian today says "I can't."


Satan wants you to believe that...
1. Ye shall not surely die.
2. Ye cannot obey God.

I urge you to dig deep and not be devoured by the roaring lion. Jesus said FEW will be saved and that MANY will be deceived. Jesus was not exaggerating.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You're making a huge mistake by deciding that all people who sin are doing it willfully and on purpose and deserve damnation. Until you learn to stop doing this you are among the many that Jesus talked about in Matthew 7 and are among those who condemn themselves by condemning others. The irony of all this is you have been sinning in your misguided zeal to make sure everyone knows that (supposedly) truly saved people don't/ can't sin.

 

[Webb]

Digger--you say that when a Christian sins he is to repent and "do his first works". Some of the 7 churches of Asia were told to do so. What are the "first works" in the case of the sinning Christian?

 

[farouk]

What was the point of this thread? I'm new here so I'm trying to figure out if somebody disagrees with faith not being active.

My thought.. My faith is active because I was already saved by grace alone. What I do is a result and an appreciation of God's free gift, working out my faith brings me joy because I do it just like when a child obeys a father, out of love and gratitude of what's already been done for me.

How else do you show the change which has taken place!?

Saves by Grace:

Good post.

Yes, I, too, wondered what the OP was getting at. I guess I tend to accept Ephesians 2.8-9 as great truths standing in their own worth in Scripture.

Good to see you here.

 

[Danus]

Saves by Grace:

Good post.

Yes, I, too, wondered what the OP was getting at. I guess I tend to accept Ephesians 2.8-9 as great truths standing in their own worth in Scripture.

Best I can tell the OP considers an Active Faith to be that of a person who does not sin. Still unsure if that means willful-sin, or a person who is sinless. or say 90% clean.......that never got answered.

However, the OP says Christ did not die for your sins. Well, he did, but he did not take on your punishment. He only made it so you can be sinless, or something like that. What I got from the OP, is that It is your responsibility to save yourself by not sinning. You sin your out, but you can ask for forgiveness and get a mulligan. In golf, that's a sorry shot where you get a do-over or mulligan.

So from what I understand the OP, when you die, you will not be able to rest on the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ, in saying that you loved and trusted Jesus only as your savior and guide surrendering your will for his. Rather, there will be a list of charges against you and you will not be afforded an attorney. You'll have to represent yourself.