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Faith is active, not passive. Ephesians 2:8-10

Digger, hardly anyone understood what you wrote. You criticized mainstream orthodox Christian denominations and theology and then said (unclear) you are free from sin. You pulled a ton of scripture and piece-milled it together to make your claims.

Pious Double talk...now your going to say that no one understands you as you back peddle to redefine your words.
That's been obvious to me, too.

I'm trying to somehow fit into the discussion here and pull Digger toward a more accurate view of what the church believes about faith and the necessity, now that we have been made perfect through faith in Christ, to demonstrate that faith (that saves all by itself) through an ever-increasing obedience to holiness. Not so we can be saved by that obedience, but so we can be sure we are continuing in the faith that saves all by itself.

"...by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." (Hebrews 10:14 NIV1984)
 
That's been obvious to me, too.

I'm trying to somehow fit into the discussion here and pull Digger toward a more accurate view of what the church believes about faith and the necessity, now that we have been made perfect through faith in Christ, to demonstrate that faith (that saves all by itself) through an ever-increasing obedience to holiness. Not so we can be saved by that obedience, but so we can be sure we are continuing in the faith that saves all by itself.

"...by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." (Hebrews 10:14 NIV1984)

I'll pray God will work through you for his purpose in that. ;)


Hi Danus

I read the same post and didn't see your conclusion .

The OP is condemning "penal substitution". The OP is saying that Christ did not die for our sins, or essentially his shed blood alone is not good enough.

Most people who hold this do not accept the deity of Christ, or the trinity.

Many holding this view believe that Christians who think otherwise are just willful sinners who think we have a free ticket to haven just because we simply "believe" or say we do. However, they are still left with how to deal with their sin and reconcile with God.

They do this in a number of was, but ultimately they believe in an "Infused righteousness" where by they are working to with God to save themselves through act's of "merit" rather than faith, because in their view the atonement blood of Jesus Christ alone does not really save anyone. So they come up with a bunch of others things to add to the work of Christ, if in fact they think the sacrifice Christ made was an act at all. Many think he was simply murdered.

The crux of Christianity, when you strip it down to bear bones, is that Jesus Christ was God in the flesh, and that as God in the flesh on earth he lived a perfect sinless life. He voluntarily took on the sins of man, as God, at the cross. He knew what he was doing and why he was doing it. Those who place their faith in that will have eternal life, and those who do not, reject Christ in some way, and their salvation is ambiguous to us. Anyone can pull any number of scripture that clearly explains, or points to, this substitution. Here is one of many just for the heck of it.

Romans 3:23-26
"For all alike have sinned and are deprived of the divine glory and all are justified by God's free grace alone through his act of redemption in the person of Christ Jesus. For God designed him to be the means of expiating sin by his death, effective through faith. God meant by this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had overlooked the sins of the past, showing that he is himself just and also justified anyone who puts his faith in Jesus." -
This is Imputed righteousness

I'm not here in this forum stating this for my glory. I'm not here in this form to circumvent what the bible clearly says. Anyone can read or hear the word and clearly understand it. It's not a matter of simply understanding it, because no one truly understands God completely.It's about accepting it.

The question is not; "do you understand it?" it's "Do you trust it?" God does not ask if we understand him. He ask do you trust me. Many people are on the wrong quest when it comes to God. They are on a quest to make sense of God thinking they can trust God once they understand God, and in order to understand God they lean on their own understandings and butcher his word. Many go as far as even rewriting the bible. Whole religions have done it, Islam, Mormons, and jehovah witnesses, to name a few.
 
I'd like to offer a friendly reminder that we need to be careful to address the topic and not each other.
 
Digger

Originally Posted by Former Christian
Digger

Do you think you're sinless? If so, how long have you been so? And since I sin on a daily basis, what do you think of me?

FC
I have been set free from the bondage of sin.

If you sin then you are still under the dominion of sin. By sin I am speaking in the context of 1Jon 4:4, Jam 4:17, Jam 1:14-15, I am not talking about falling short in the sense of making a mistake or misjudgment. I am talking about willful transgression, outright rebellion to God.


Enslavement to Sin

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.


Being set free from Sin.

Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin,but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God,ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

I want you to do me a favor. Answer my post without giving a single quote from the bible. Answer it in your own words.

FC
 
The OP is condemning "penal substitution". The OP is saying that Christ did not die for our sins, or essentially his shed blood alone is not good enough.

That is not quite accurate.

You are correct in the fact that I do not subscribe to the penal substitution view of the atonement. You are incorrect to say that I said that Christ did not die for our sins, he most definitely did.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Penal substitution was developed by John Calvin on the back of Anselm of Cantebury's satisfaction view.

John Calvin was a lawyer and thus saw Christ's death on the cross in a purely legal sense.

If Christ had died only a bodily death, it would have been ineffectual. No — it was expedient at the same time for him to undergo the severity of God’s vengeance, to appease his wrath and satisfy his just judgment. For this reason, he must also grapple hand to hand with the armies of hell and the dread of everlasting death. A little while ago we referred to the prophet’s statement that "the chastisement of our peace was laid upon him," "he was wounded for our transgressions" by the Father, "he was bruised for our infirmities" [Isaiah 53:5 p.]. By these words he means that Christ was put in place of evildoers as surety and pledge — submitting himself even as the accused — to bear and suffer all the punishments that they ought to have sustained.
John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion. http://www.reformed.org/master/index.html?mainframe=/documents/Christ_in_hell/

The early church never taught such a thing. This teaching takes the focus off of the actual teachings of Christ it put it purely on the "substitutionary atonement." It is out of this teaching that the doctrine of "future" sins being already forgiven is born, which directly contradicts Rom 3:25.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Jesus did not suffer as a wrath substitute for the sinner. He bore our sins as a sin offering without spot and blemish. If he became spotted by sin on that cross then he would not have been acceptable to God. he didn't offer Himself as a sinner in our place.

Heb_9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

When we walk in the light the blood cleanses us of our past sins. Not future sins.

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The penal substitution view of the atonement completely redefines the meaning of the cross.

It takes the focus off of the teachings of Jesus and focuses exclusively on the cross. Yes it is true that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin, but it is also true that one cannot access this sin offering and be remitted of their past sin without a genuine repentance.

Mar_1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Luk_24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

We can only be reconciled to God through repentance and faith whereby we gain access to His grace and the blood can be applied to us. SATAN KNOWS THIS and that is why he perverts doctrine. Subtle errors are introduced which lead error upon error and eventually you have a system of error.

The Bible warned that this would happen, the Bible warned that many false teachers would come and that they would deceive a multitude. The Bible also warns that a multitude would stand before Christ utterly rejected and it says that these people were workers of iniquity. Satan deceived them and kept them in rebellion to God, kept them in bondage to their sin by getting them to buy into a false gospel. A gospel with no power to overcome sin and bring real redemption.

Instead of obeying, striving, crucifying the old man, picking up your cross, holding steadfast, digging deep, the gospel is been reduced down to simply confessing your a sinner, trusting in a provision, and receiving the free gift and then waiting on God to clean you up. That is not the gospel, not even close, yet it is taught in basically every pulpit across the land.

In Jeremiah's day the religious system was totally apostate, it was the same in Jesus day, it is exactly the same today. It looks like a lamb but speaks the language of the dragon and they are dispensing the mark upon millions. No one is told that they must pluck out the eye or cut off the hand, no, people are coddled in their sins and told that God is working with them and eventually they will overcome, but if you don't God still loves you and understands. Grace is this cloak for sin.

Repentance has been reduced to a mere confession.
Faith is now trust in a provision.
Salvation is simply having the condemnation removed.
Grace is just a free gift and nothing more.

Doesn't anyone find it strange that Jesus would say you cannot serve two masters yet in the church system you can?

Isn't it strange that Jesus would say that a good true does not produce bad fruit but in the church system it can and does?

Was Jesus just playing games here? Think about it.

The early church viewed the atonement as a ransom, not a substitution. They saw Jesus as ransoming us by his blood from the corrupting influence of sin.


Anyone can pull any number of scripture that clearly explains, or points to, this substitution. Here is one of many just for the heck of it.

Romans 3:23-26
"For all alike have sinned and are deprived of the divine glory and all are justified by God's free grace alone through his act of redemption in the person of Christ Jesus. For God designed him to be the means of expiating sin by his death, effective through faith. God meant by this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had overlooked the sins of the past, showing that he is himself just and also justified anyone who puts his faith in Jesus." -
This is Imputed righteousness

That scripture does not say anything about Jesus being your wrath substitute. You read that into the verse. It clearly says that His death on the cross expiates PAST SINS, through faith by the mercy of God.

The imputed righteousness teaching is another false doctrine taught today. Faith is imputed as righteousness.

There is nowhere in the Bible where it says that Jesus obeyed for you. There is nowhere in Scripture that it says that Jesus obedient track record is credited to your account so that when God sees you He sees the righteousness of Jesus. That is heresy.

Such teaching is read into Rom 3:22 and 2 Cor 5:21. Those verses don't say that. Jesus never taught any such thing anywhere. Jesus said obey, deny yourself, pick up your cross, stop sinning, follow me, strive, etc. All that is thrown out the window due to these heresies in the church system.

Where does the Bible specifically say, without conjecture, that the righteousness of Jesus Christ is credited to the believers account?

Why didn't Jesus teach any such thing in anything He said?


It is all another gospel which, when the fluff is removed, is saying you can continue to sin and not die.
 
Digger

What has this to do with answering my questions in your own words?

The Hebrew and Greek words translated sin means to miss the mark. It can refer to missing the mark in any way, including misunderstanding and being mistaken or misjudging. It isn't necessarily just in reference to the Law. Cain sinned though a formal Law didn't as yet exist. Though it is most often used in relation to the Law after God gave the Law.

How do you view the Law? Abrogated or not abrogated?

FC
 
That is not quite accurate.

You are correct in the fact that I do not subscribe to the penal substitution view of the atonement. You are incorrect to say that I said that Christ did not die for our sins, he most definitely did.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Penal substitution was developed by John Calvin on the back of Anselm of Cantebury's satisfaction view.

John Calvin was a lawyer and thus saw Christ's death on the cross in a purely legal sense.

John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion. http://www.reformed.org/master/index.html?mainframe=/documents/Christ_in_hell/

The early church never taught such a thing. This teaching takes the focus off of the actual teachings of Christ it put it purely on the "substitutionary atonement." It is out of this teaching that the doctrine of "future" sins being already forgiven is born, which directly contradicts Rom 3:25.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Jesus did not suffer as a wrath substitute for the sinner. He bore our sins as a sin offering without spot and blemish. If he became spotted by sin on that cross then he would not have been acceptable to God. he didn't offer Himself as a sinner in our place.

Heb_9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

When we walk in the light the blood cleanses us of our past sins. Not future sins.

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The penal substitution view of the atonement completely redefines the meaning of the cross.

It takes the focus off of the teachings of Jesus and focuses exclusively on the cross. Yes it is true that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin, but it is also true that one cannot access this sin offering and be remitted of their past sin without a genuine repentance.

Mar_1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Luk_24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

We can only be reconciled to God through repentance and faith whereby we gain access to His grace and the blood can be applied to us. SATAN KNOWS THIS and that is why he perverts doctrine. Subtle errors are introduced which lead error upon error and eventually you have a system of error.

The Bible warned that this would happen, the Bible warned that many false teachers would come and that they would deceive a multitude. The Bible also warns that a multitude would stand before Christ utterly rejected and it says that these people were workers of iniquity. Satan deceived them and kept them in rebellion to God, kept them in bondage to their sin by getting them to buy into a false gospel. A gospel with no power to overcome sin and bring real redemption.

Instead of obeying, striving, crucifying the old man, picking up your cross, holding steadfast, digging deep, the gospel is been reduced down to simply confessing your a sinner, trusting in a provision, and receiving the free gift and then waiting on God to clean you up. That is not the gospel, not even close, yet it is taught in basically every pulpit across the land.

In Jeremiah's day the religious system was totally apostate, it was the same in Jesus day, it is exactly the same today. It looks like a lamb but speaks the language of the dragon and they are dispensing the mark upon millions. No one is told that they must pluck out the eye or cut off the hand, no, people are coddled in their sins and told that God is working with them and eventually they will overcome, but if you don't God still loves you and understands. Grace is this cloak for sin.

Repentance has been reduced to a mere confession.
Faith is now trust in a provision.
Salvation is simply having the condemnation removed.
Grace is just a free gift and nothing more.

Doesn't anyone find it strange that Jesus would say you cannot serve two masters yet in the church system you can?

Isn't it strange that Jesus would say that a good true does not produce bad fruit but in the church system it can and does?

Was Jesus just playing games here? Think about it.

The early church viewed the atonement as a ransom, not a substitution. They saw Jesus as ransoming us by his blood from the corrupting influence of sin.




That scripture does not say anything about Jesus being your wrath substitute. You read that into the verse. It clearly says that His death on the cross expiates PAST SINS, through faith by the mercy of God.

The imputed righteousness teaching is another false doctrine taught today. Faith is imputed as righteousness.

There is nowhere in the Bible where it says that Jesus obeyed for you. There is nowhere in Scripture that it says that Jesus obedient track record is credited to your account so that when God sees you He sees the righteousness of Jesus. That is heresy.

Such teaching is read into Rom 3:22 and 2 Cor 5:21. Those verses don't say that. Jesus never taught any such thing anywhere. Jesus said obey, deny yourself, pick up your cross, stop sinning, follow me, strive, etc. All that is thrown out the window due to these heresies in the church system.

Where does the Bible specifically say, without conjecture, that the righteousness of Jesus Christ is credited to the believers account?

Why didn't Jesus teach any such thing in anything He said?


It is all another gospel which, when the fluff is removed, is saying you can continue to sin and not die.

Before I waste my time with this, tell me your view on the trinity and deity of Christ please
 
@ Digger: I am going to put what you are saying in my own words. Please correct me if needed.

I pulled my truck out of the dirt today so I have dirt all over me. I took a shower at a truck stop and washed the dirt away. Now I am clean unless I get dirt on me, then I am dirty. I am either clean or dirty, never anything between. I only had one shower voucher, so now I can't clean up if I get dirty again.
 
“A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean..." (John 13:10 NIV1984)
 
"...by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." (Hebrews 10:14 NIV1984)

Justification in Christ is the bath that made us clean and perfect before God. "(B)eing transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory" (2 Corinthians 3:18 NIV1984) is the washing of our feet as we perfect the walk of the outward man in the Spirit.
 
Digger, still waiting to hear from you about the trinity. Do you hold to the trinity and deity of Jesus Christ? Was Jesus fully God and Fully man? in your theology? .....................I'm guessing you do not believe this and that you will either not answer it, or you will answer it in a riddle of some sort that does not clearly answer the question.

In any case, based on your theology, which you have somewhat expressed here, was Jesus Christ fully God and Man?

Can you answer that? :chin
 
I can't respond regarding your take on Calvinism because I'm not that well educated in that arena but I think your expression of what Wesley / Methodism teaches isn't exactly accurate . Wesley taught entire sanctification and growth via participation in the divine nature. Reminded me a lot of some of the Eastern Patristic writers in that regard (Athanasius for example). Active faith seems to be one the highlights of his whole message. At least that's what I got out of reading his sermons a few months ago.
 
I can't respond regarding your take on Calvinism because I'm not that well educated in that arena but I think your expression of what Wesley / Methodism teaches isn't exactly accurate . Wesley taught entire sanctification and growth via participation in the divine nature. Reminded me a lot of some of the Eastern Patristic writers in that regard (Athanasius for example). Active faith seems to be one the highlights of his whole message. At least that's what I got out of reading his sermons a few months ago.

A lot of people like to pick on John Calvin and have held him up as the father of the reformation. However, John Calvin was just one of many stretching back to Paul himself. Calvin had a higher view of God and salvation, but Calvin is not the enemy that many try to make him out to be. There are some sticking points in his TULIP theology, but none that matter. None that are against the essential Christian doctrines, and as we should all hold, IN ESSENTIALS UNITY, IN NON-ESSENTIALS LIBERTY, IN ALL THINGS CHARITY."

It still comes down to one thing. Who was Christ?

Athanasius would say Christ was God. others who would agree are; Paul, Luther, Agustine, Calvin....too many to list here. Theses are just a tiny few who stand out.

Question is, would the OP of this tread agree? I don't think so. If Christ was not God, then we have a huge problem. If Christ was not God the whole of ones theology chain has different links in it that are not orthodox to the essentials of the Christian faith. Not unified, and deserve no charity as anything even close to Christianity.
 
Danus, you stated implicitly that I was saying that Jesus Christ did not die for our sins and that essentially I was implying that His shed blood was not good enough. Both were false allegations, instead of sidestepping the issue why don't you specifically address something I wrote instead of dancing around it and throwing accusations.

This is what so many people tend to do, I quote scriptures people do not like or I compare scripture with scripture which clearly portray a truth people do not like so instead of examining the issue in the light of scripture they start throwing accusations.

Jesus Christ was God incarnated in the flesh. Jesus Christ is God. I hope that puts to rest that question.


...Calvin had a higher view of God and salvation, but Calvin is not the enemy that many try to make him out to be. There are some sticking points in his TULIP theology, but none that matter. None that are against the essential Christian doctrines, and as we should all hold, IN ESSENTIALS UNITY, IN NON-ESSENTIALS LIBERTY, IN ALL THINGS CHARITY."

John Calvin was a heretic and an unrepentant murderer.

His main heresy involves his teaching on imputation. He butchers Rom 4:6-7, 5:19, 2 Cor. 5:18-21 to prove that the obedient track record of Jesus Christ is transferred to a believers account. Thus Jesus obeyed for you. That a satanic doctrine found nowhere in the Bible.

It is FAITH which is imputed as righteousness, not Jesus obeying for you. It is faith which works by love whereby we establish the law in our hearts and we can then fulfill the righteous requirements by walking after the Spirit. These wolves who teach that Jesus obeyed for you will need read Rom 4:19-24 in their sermons.

You cannot find it clearly stated anywhere in the entire Bible where it says anything close that Jesus obeyed for you and that all you have to do is trust in that.

John wrote that those who DO righteousness are righteousness. Genuine faith in a believer PRODUCES right living. We walk by a faith that works by love fulfilling the law. That is what Jesus taught.
 
Hi Digger

How often did the 1st century church take the Lord's supper? What music is to be used in worship according to the NT?
 
John wrote that those who DO righteousness are righteousness.
In a general overall sense, yes. Not in a sinless kind of perfection. Jesus was the only righteous person who also never sinned.


Genuine faith in a believer PRODUCES right living.
Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. But hopefully it does in increasing measure as we grow up into our faith in Christ and the qualities of the Spirit as Peter explains that in 1 Peter 1. But all the while we are saved through that growth process if we cling to our faith in God's forgiveness.


We walk by a faith that works by love fulfilling the law. That is what Jesus taught.
But this is an obedience that is perfected over time (like any tree, it's fruit is the mature growth of the tree). But in the mean time the one who continues to trust in the forgiveness of God given us in Christ remains perfect and unblemished and acceptable before him. It's the person who stops trusting in the forgiveness of God that ceases to be perfect before God. That is the person who is condemned by their sin.

"16 If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death." (1 John 5:16-17 NIV1984)


I wouldn't let the details about imputed righteousness keep you from understanding that we are indeed made righteous because of the righteous and perfect work of Christ that God accepts on our behalf. We show that we have been declared (made) righteous through the work of Christ by our own ever-increasing growth and development into the qualities of the Spirit and the new creation we became when the Holy Spirit came into us.
 
@ Digger: I am going to put what you are saying in my own words. Please correct me if needed.

I pulled my truck out of the dirt today so I have dirt all over me. I took a shower at a truck stop and washed the dirt away. Now I am clean unless I get dirt on me, then I am dirty. I am either clean or dirty, never anything between. I only had one shower voucher, so now I can't clean up if I get dirty again.

The prodigal son left his father and ended up wallowing in the mire with the pigs. He came to himself in the mire, forsook it, went back to the father and confessed his transgression. The father then forgave and restored him.

The son was no longer wallowing with the pigs nor did the father come and drag him out from amongst the pigs.

I suppose that this can be likened to your example of how the shower at the truck stop works.

What if the son returns to wallowing in the mire?

Peter writes about that in 2nd Peter chapter 2.
20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

I did not write that, Peter did. Clearly returning to the mire is a extremely dangerous, especially in light of what is written in 2The 2, Heb 10:26-19, Hebrews 6.

So is the cleansing a one time ticket? Early church fathers like Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria and Origen taught that it was.

It seems Hermes allowed for a second repentance although there was contention about his teachings in other early church writings.

There is also an incident recorded by Esubius in Book 3 of his church history which has an account of a second repentance of a youth under the apostle John.

In Revelation chapters 2 and 3 we can clearly see five of the seven churches being called to repentance.

There is clear variance among how the early church viewed this issue, but what they did all agree on though a Christian is not commit willful sin. No one taught that you can continue willful sin and enter the kingdom. The opposite is taught today.

A genuine Christian has crucified the flesh with its passions and desires and no longer yields to it in disobedience to God. A Christian does not live a life of sin/repent/sin/repent/sin/repent just as a husband does not live a life of adultery/sorry/adultery/sorry/adultery/sorry. The adultery stops or the sorrow is not genuine.
 
Digger

What has this to do with answering my questions in your own words?

The Hebrew and Greek words translated sin means to miss the mark. It can refer to missing the mark in any way, including misunderstanding and being mistaken or misjudging. It isn't necessarily just in reference to the Law. Cain sinned though a formal Law didn't as yet exist. Though it is most often used in relation to the Law after God gave the Law.

How do you view the Law? Abrogated or not abrogated?

FC

Sin in the Greek literally translates to missing the mark as you say.

John defines sin as "transgression" in 1Jo3:4.
James defines sin as doing wrong when you know to do right in Ja 4:17.

John after writing that sin is transgression says that those who sin are of the devil. The sin John is speaking of is willful transgression, not missing the mark.

James writes in chapter 1 of his epistle that sin is the result of being drawn by the lusts of the flesh and yielding to them.

In Galations 5 you will see where Paul lists the works of the flesh and clearly says that those who do those things will not enter the kingdom. He also has a similar list in 1 Cor6 and Eph 5.

Therefore when Jesus said "go and sin no more" He was not referring to missing the mark or making mistakes, Jesus was specifically referring to the sins of the flesh. That is what has to stop.

Those are the sins I do not do. I hope that answers your question. It can be very important to define terms.

Romans 14 is a good chapter to read on how a Christian is to walk. They are to walk by faith not by the letter of the law. Faith establishes the law in the heart rather than throw it out the window. So while a true Christian is not walking around worrying about a list of do's and dont's the fruit produced will ALWAYS come from a pure heart. A good tree produces good fruit and if they eye is single (focused on God) then the whole body is full of light. Those who walk by the Spirit will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh but will instead fulfill the righteous requirements of the law.

It is a beautiful message.
 
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