Faith is active, not passive. Ephesians 2:8-10

[Jethro Bodine]

No one taught that you can continue willful sin and enter the kingdom. The opposite is taught today.

I would suggest to you that very few denominations teach this, and that you had been unfairly suggesting that all sin in all Christians was tantamount to a return to a wallowing in the mud. As I showed you, there is sin that results in death, and there is sin that does not result in death. It's wrong to broad stroke all sin in all Christians into the category of the 'sin unto death'.

A genuine Christian has crucified the flesh with its passions and desires and no longer yields to it in disobedience to God.

It's good to know at least one of us doesn't yield to disobedience anymore...and it ain't me, lol. But if either one of us should yield to the sin of no longer believing and trusting in God's forgiveness that is when we have sinned unto death and returned to the mire from which we came.

You're just not looking at this from the correct angle. Not all sin leads to death. But there is a sin that does lead to death. Do you know the difference? It's the difference between having a bad hair day in Christ, and rejecting the provision of God's grace in Christ altogether. Can you see the difference?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

A genuine Christian has crucified the flesh with its passions and desires and no longer yields to it in disobedience to God. A Christian does not live a life of sin/repent/sin/repent/sin/repent just as a husband does not live a life of adultery/sorry/adultery/sorry/adultery/sorry. The adultery stops or the sorrow is not genuine.

Are you familiar with the 'seventy times seven' teaching in the Bible?

 

[Digger]

In a general overall sense, yes. Not in a sinless kind of perfection. Jesus was the only righteous person who also never sinned.
Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. But hopefully it does in increasing measure as we grow up into our faith in Christ and the qualities of the Spirit as Peter explains that in 1 Peter 1. But all the while we are saved through that growth process if we cling to our faith in God's forgiveness.

Sinless perfection is simply a straw man. Sinless perfection implies never making a mistake or erring in judgment. People then hold that standard up as impossible to achieve and then use that as an excuse that grace covers willful sin.

That is why so many people will attack what I wrote and will not make the distinction between presumptuous sin and an error in judgment. People simply do not want to crucify their flesh and forsake all willful sin so they try and twist the Bible to make an allowance.

Growth in Christ is not sinning less and less. Growth in Christ is growing in the understanding of God and growing in the divine nature.

It is Satan that teaches you cannot obey God. If people believe they cannot obey God then they simply do not try. They might clean up a few things in their life but they still go on sinning. They never crucify the old man, it never happens. Instead they try and reform the old man a little at a time. That is Satan's gospel. It is a deadly deception which is fooling millions.

But this is an obedience that is perfected over time (like any tree, it's fruit is the mature growth of the tree). But in the mean time the one who continues to trust in the forgiveness of God given us in Christ remains perfect and unblemished and acceptable before him. It's the person who stops trusting in the forgiveness of God that ceases to be perfect before God. That is the person who is condemned by their sin.

You are clearly making an allowance for continuing in rebellion to God. Repentance is where the rebellion is purged, it does not occur over time. You cannot serve two masters, you either serve God in obedience by crucifying your will with Him or you serve Satan by being your own god and never pick up your cross and deny yourself.

The false gospel makes an allowance for continuing in sin. All you have to do is trust in the provision and not worry about it. If anyone comes and says you have to actually "stop sinning" they are labeled a heretic who is not trusting enough. It is such a stronghold in the mind and so few can come out from under this fallacy.

To make an allowance for continuing in sin one had to ignore Jesus saying go and sin no more, the parable of the prodigal son, what happened in Nineveh, Romans 6 and twist it into being positional in application. One has to ignore the whole book of 2nd Peter, ignore the warnings about being cut off, falling away, being given up and hold to a handful of scriptures which are taken completely out of context. You can play that game but you are playing with eternity.

"16 If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death." (1 John 5:16-17 NIV1984)
I wouldn't let the details about imputed righteousness keep you from understanding that we are indeed made righteous because of the righteous and perfect work of Christ that God accepts on our behalf. We show that we have been declared (made) righteous through the work of Christ by our own ever-increasing growth and development into the qualities of the Spirit and the new creation we became when the Holy Spirit came into us.

You want to know what sin leads to death? Willful sin. Just like what Adam and Eve did in the garden, they willfully sinned.

If you keep reading from what you quoted it says this...

18We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Do you believe that?


Johm 3:36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

If you look up the word "believeth not" in the Greek you will see it means "disobedience." Those who truly believe obey, those who do not disobey.

It is very simple. You must be a doer of the word and not a hearer only deceiving yourself.


John Calvin's teaching of imputed righteousness is very different to what the Bible teaches. It is not some detail that keeps me from understandinh what imputed righteousness is.

Read this plainly for what it says...

20He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 21And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Abraham was fully persuaded and was a doer of the word. God then reckoned Abraham righteous because of this. Jesus did not obey for Abraham nor was the track record of Jesus transferred to Abraham.

The sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross was a sin offering and the blood purges us of our past sins. The blood does not cover sins you continue to commit. That is the error that flows from the heresy of penal substitution. 2Pet 1:9 and Rom 3:25 make it very clear that it is past sins that are covered.

We come to God through genuine repentance and faith with a broken will, having laid aside all wickedness. God then sees this and responds by purging us of our dead works via the blood, quickens our spirit, and only then can we can serve God acceptably as a living sacrifice having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. We then grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ. That is salvation. that is what the Bible clearly teaches.

 

[Digger]

It's good to know at least one of us doesn't yield to disobedience anymore...and it ain't me, lol.

Grace to you is a license to sin because you continue in willful sin by your own admission.

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul clearly says that you are a slave to whom you obey.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

You freely admit that you yield to sin when the Paul clearly teaches that you are not to.

You are not dead to sin, you have not been set free.

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

If you yield your member to unrighteousness then you are still carnal and sold under sin. If you continue to live that way you will perish.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Paul says we are to mortify the deeds of the body by the Spirit. Which perfectly harmonizes with what Jesus taught about picking up your cross and denying yourself. It also harmonizes with what Paul wrote in Galations chapter 5 where he writes that those who are Christs have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

You are saying that you are Christ's but have not crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. You believe that Christ's work simply covers you and that over time you will perhaps crucify your flesh gradually.

I don't think I will even go on, it is a pure nonsense gospel you believe in. You'll ignore everything I say and keep quoting verses out of context.

 

[Danus]

I quote scriptures people do not like or I compare scripture with scripture which clearly portray a truth people do not like so instead of examining the issue in the light of scripture they start throwing accusations.

Jesus Christ was God incarnated in the flesh. Jesus Christ is God. I hope that puts to rest that question.

John Calvin was a heretic and an unrepentant murderer.

His main heresy involves his teaching on imputation. He butchers Rom 4:6-7, 5:19, 2 Cor. 5:18-21 to prove that the obedient track record of Jesus Christ is transferred to a believers account. Thus Jesus obeyed for you. That a satanic doctrine found nowhere in the Bible.

It is FAITH which is imputed as righteousness, not Jesus obeying for you. It is faith which works by love whereby we establish the law in our hearts and we can then fulfill the righteous requirements by walking after the Spirit. These wolves who teach that Jesus obeyed for you will need read Rom 4:19-24 in their sermons.

You cannot find it clearly stated anywhere in the entire Bible where it says anything close that Jesus obeyed for you and that all you have to do is trust in that.

John wrote that those who DO righteousness are righteousness. Genuine faith in a believer PRODUCES right living. We walk by a faith that works by love fulfilling the law. That is what Jesus taught.

I'm glad to hear you hold to the trinity and deity of Jesus Christ. Your not as far out there as I thought.

You misunderstand Calvin, but that's not a sin. A lot of people do. Calvin was not the only person to write about Christ taking on our punishment and paying the debt we owe but can never pay.

You'er not posting any scripture that I, or others don't like. I have no problem with the scripture you have posted, just your understanding of it, and this idea that we are to fulfill the law that Christ already fulfilled.

You get on here and accuse protestants and those who follow reformed theology of not having faith? And then you basically call us heretics. Why don't you just say what you mean?

Then you suggest that perhaps it;s you digger who fulfills the law through your supper faith, and you call Calvin a heretic?

Christians do not fulfill the law sir. No one does, no one has, but Christ who was God; and our faith rest in that. That sir, is an active faith. That is what faith is about and that is what the bible tells us to include the scripture you posted. You don't have to be a "Calvinist" to believe this. This is not a John Calvin understanding.

You'er not placing your faith in Christ with what you've said. Your placing your faith in your ability to fulfill and hold up the law. That's nonsense. You might as well be Muslim if your going to do that.

 

[Digger]

You misunderstand Calvin, but that's not a sin. A lot of people do. Calvin was not the only person to write about Christ taking on our punishment and paying the debt we owe but can never pay.

I know John Calvin was not the only person who wrote about it. It was John Calvin who developed the idea and it was through him that it was adopted into the orthodoxy of the reformation. It is a teaching which was never taught in the early church, it is a pure fallacy.

The Bible specifically states that the sin offering made by Jesus Christ purges PAST sins. The penal substitution heresy teaches that it covers future sins. The logical outcome of penal substitution is also the heresy of unconditional eternal security. This is why the teachings and parables of Jesus are almost totally ignored when it comes to salvation, only a few of His statements are cherry picked out of context like Joh 3:16.

Error only leads to error. It only takes a little leaven. The entire church system today is a system of error.

Jesus did not pay your debt in a penal sense. He bore your sins, offering Himself up to God WITHOUT SPOT. God did not punish Jesus, God did not pour out His wrath on Jesus. Yes, He was esteemed stricken by men but that does not mean He was your substitute.

Look at the parable of the unforgiving servant. He was forgiven freely, no one came to pay his debt. When he did not forgive his own servant then the debt was due again. That parable totally contradicts the penal substitution model.

The penal substitution model totally contradicts the scriptures which speak of PAST sins.

The penal substitution model is only 400 years old and it was developed on the back of Anselm's satisfaction model of the 11th century. It was never taught by the early church. It is pure heresy. A doctrine of demons.

The early church taught that Jesus purchased us by His blood from the corrupting influence of sin. We share in His death by dying with Him. We crucify the old man in repentance and die with Christ and then we are raised up by the same power of God that raised Jesus up to newness of life.

That is what the Bible teaches and that is what the early church taught.

Romans 6
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Romans 6 is taught as positional in the church system, not actual. Thus the believer never actually puts off the old man in repentance. It never happens. See what Satan has done?

Satan has redefined repentance. Repentance is simply confession now. The old man is not crucified. Satan knows that the old man MUST BE crucified. These doctrines of demons deny the crucifixion old man in repentance, which leaves the people still in bondage to their sins, they remain the Romans 7 wretch, THINKING they are saved. It is a masterful deception.

The Westminster confession says this...

I. Those whom God effectually calls, He also freely justifies; not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; not for any thing wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone; nor by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing the obedience and satisfaction of Christ unto them, they receiving and resting on Him and His righteousness by faith; which faith they have not of themselves, it is the gift of God.
...
III. Christ, by His obedience and death, did fully discharge the debt of all those that are thus justified, and did make a proper, real and full satisfaction to His Father's justice in their behalf. Yet, in as much as He was given by the Father for them; and His obedience and satisfaction accepted in their stead; and both, freely, not for any thing in them; their justification is only of free grace; that both the exact justice, and rich grace of God might be glorified in the justification of sinners.

Westminster Confession ch. 11 http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/

What this is teaching in the simplest of language is that Jesus not only paid the penalty due for your sin but that he also obeyed in your place. Your sin gets transferred to Jesus and His obedient record is transferred to you. What a grand deal! What sounds better than that? No wonder it is popular! It tickles the ears.

It is another gospel. It is not found anywhere in the Bible.

Billy Graham, John Piper, Paul Washer, John MacArthur, David Jeremiah, Irwin Lutzer, and most every local pastor preaches this message of the magical transfer.

Look what you say here...

Christians do not fulfill the law sir. No one does, no one has, but Christ who was God; and our faith rest in that.

You directly contradict the Bible.

Rom8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

One is either fulfilling the law through a faith that works by love or they are walking after the flesh fulfilling the lusts of the flesh. Not both at the same time. You cannot serve two masters.

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

It is the apex of delusion to believe that you can be walking according to the passions and desires of the flesh, fulfilling them in disobedience to God and think that by simply trusting in some provision that you will enter into the kingdom.

That sir, is strong delusion.

2The2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Noah placed his faith in God when He feared and obeyed Him. That is the faith that saves, not passive trust in a package.

7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

 

[JacobBoheme]

Penal substitution isn't my favorite metaphor for the mystery of salvation but I don't see why it would be heresy. Imputation might not be the be all end all of how it works but I don't see it as heretical in itself either. I look more towards salvation as participation in the divine nature (theosis) and the Christus Victor models personally but I recognize that Christians have viewed this mystery from various angels and that while no single theory or metaphor perfectly covers the totality of the mystery that many of them are still useful and have their place within the Christian spectrum. Just because some of them have been taken beyond their usefulness into extremism doesn't imply that they have no value.

 

[Digger]

Penal substitution isn't my favorite metaphor for the mystery of salvation but I don't see why it would be heresy. Imputation might not be the be all end all of how it works but I don't see it as heretical in itself either. I look more towards salvation as participation in the divine nature (theosis) and the Christus Victor models personally but I recognize that Christians have viewed this mystery from various angels and that while no single theory or metaphor perfectly covers the totality of the mystery that many of them are still useful and have their place within the Christian spectrum. Just because some of them have been taken beyond their usefulness into extremism doesn't imply that they have no value.

It is heresy because it teaches that Jesus is your substitute. Under penal substitution God poured out His wrath on Jesus instead of on you. Thus the price is paid and there is no sin you can commit which would bring you under condemnation lest there be double jeopardy or the same sins punished twice.

Penal substitution offers a false comfort to people by leading them to falsely believe they can keep on sinning and that there will be no consequences regarding their salvation.

Thus the person under the delusion comes to believe that scriptures like the following do not apply to them, they only apply to those who don't have the covering.

4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Penal Substitution = Ye Shall Not Surely Die


It is one reason why the gospel message is presented as confess, trust and receive instead of repent and obey.


Penal Substitution offers false comfort.

The other major heresy taught in the church system is that you are born a sinner and this error makes man unable to come to God through a genuine repentance.

If you believe that you were born a sinner and that Jesus was your substitute then there is practically no hope that you will come a reconciliation to God through a genuine repentance and faith because you will falsely believe that you are already reconciled.

That is why these teachings are so deadly. They completely redefine faith, repentance, grace and salvation. They neutralizer the Gospel message and substitute it with the teachings of men.

Look at my first post, is it really unbiblical?

 

[JacobBoheme]

I don't believe the idea of Christ taken the punishment for our sin in our place has to be based on the idea of God being angered and thus forced to punish someone. That's simply one exaggerated form of the idea. Not everyone who uses legal metaphors goes that far with it. Paul himself speaks of the mystery of salvation using legal metaphors at times and I don't think that's what he was getting at at all.

My problem with your post isn't so much the other aspects of salvation that you bring to light (living faith, etc..) so much as it is the fact that you call so many of my Christian brothers and sisters heretics. Calling someone a heretic is a big deal and shouldn't be done lightly imo.

 

[Danus]

I know John Calvin was not the only person who wrote about it. It was John Calvin who developed the idea and it was through him that it was adopted into the orthodoxy of the reformation. It is a teaching which was never taught in the early church, it is a pure fallacy.

The Bible specifically states that the sin offering made by Jesus Christ purges PAST sins. The penal substitution heresy teaches that it covers future sins. The logical outcome of penal substitution is also the heresy of unconditional eternal security. This is why the teachings and parables of Jesus are almost totally ignored when it comes to salvation, only a few of His statements are cherry picked out of context like Joh 3:16.

Error only leads to error. It only takes a little leaven. The entire church system today is a system of error.

Jesus did not pay your debt in a penal sense. He bore your sins, offering Himself up to God WITHOUT SPOT. God did not punish Jesus, God did not pour out His wrath on Jesus. Yes, He was esteemed stricken by men but that does not mean He was your substitute.

Look at the parable of the unforgiving servant. He was forgiven freely, no one came to pay his debt. When he did not forgive his own servant then the debt was due again. That parable totally contradicts the penal substitution model.

The penal substitution model totally contradicts the scriptures which speak of PAST sins.

The penal substitution model is only 400 years old and it was developed on the back of Anselm's satisfaction model of the 11th century. It was never taught by the early church. It is pure heresy. A doctrine of demons.

The early church taught that Jesus purchased us by His blood from the corrupting influence of sin. We share in His death by dying with Him. We crucify the old man in repentance and die with Christ and then we are raised up by the same power of God that raised Jesus up to newness of life.

That is what the Bible teaches and that is what the early church taught.

Romans 6
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Romans 6 is taught as positional in the church system, not actual. Thus the believer never actually puts off the old man in repentance. It never happens. See what Satan has done?

Satan has redefined repentance. Repentance is simply confession now. The old man is not crucified. Satan knows that the old man MUST BE crucified. These doctrines of demons deny the crucifixion old man in repentance, which leaves the people still in bondage to their sins, they remain the Romans 7 wretch, THINKING they are saved. It is a masterful deception.

The Westminster confession says this...

Westminster Confession ch. 11 http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/

What this is teaching in the simplest of language is that Jesus not only paid the penalty due for your sin but that he also obeyed in your place. Your sin gets transferred to Jesus and His obedient record is transferred to you. What a grand deal! What sounds better than that? No wonder it is popular! It tickles the ears.

It is another gospel. It is not found anywhere in the Bible.

Billy Graham, John Piper, Paul Washer, John MacArthur, David Jeremiah, Irwin Lutzer, and most every local pastor preaches this message of the magical transfer.

Look what you say here...



You directly contradict the Bible.

Rom8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

One is either fulfilling the law through a faith that works by love or they are walking after the flesh fulfilling the lusts of the flesh. Not both at the same time. You cannot serve two masters.

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

It is the apex of delusion to believe that you can be walking according to the passions and desires of the flesh, fulfilling them in disobedience to God and think that by simply trusting in some provision that you will enter into the kingdom.

That sir, is strong delusion.

2The2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Noah placed his faith in God when He feared and obeyed Him. That is the faith that saves, not passive trust in a package.

7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

This is very simple. You can't face God's judgment on your own merit, on your best day; I can't; No one can.

How good a person you have been, or think you are will not save you and that's the whole point of recognizing your a sinner.

God came to earth and humbled himself as a man; Jesus Christ. He lived the life you and I can not, and he took on our sins as as the perfect sacrifice to pay a debt we can not. (God did that for us) Whom ever places their trust in THAT, has eternal life. God has spelled this out well enough in the bible without having to write in crayon.

God does not care what incenses you burn, what sacrifices you make on an alter, or how good you are. Christ is not waiting for people to be "Good Enough" to come to him, because none are. He meets us right where we are, and it does not matter if you are a drunk on the street or a Hollywood celebrity....whatever.

There are degrees of punishment in hell for those who reject Christ and there are degrees of reward in haven for those who accept Christ. This is to say that ones anguish or Joy is magnified by their own condition, but there is not some waiting room in haven, some choosing of who is better or worse than the other. All have sin and all fall short of the Glory of God. That's It. You either accept Christ or you don't. No one accepts Christ better than anyone else, and no one rejects Christ worse than anyone else.

If you think your going to escape some sort of "punishment" for your goodness, then by all means have at your holly self, but teaching others that they are in some worse condition because they have not served the Lord as well as you will only bring that judgment on yourself.

There is only one way to hell, and that's by rejecting Christ. This is the good news.

I don't know what bible your reading, but it's telling you that the way to salvation is by your character, and that's just false. All men are lyres, all have sinned, and all fall short...it does not matter if you have accepted Jesus or not when it comes to this biblical fact.

None of the reformist ever taught that you can just sin and party because none of that matters, Jesus paid it all. None one but people how are obsessed with John Calvin say that. You read that into it yourself.

Clearly those who have accepted Christ live for the will of God and not that of themselves. The will of God holds the moral law, not the will of man, but by accepting Christ and living for the will of God, one is molded to the image of Christ, and there own will becomes less and less every day.

But we still see people who want to chose Christ, who say they do, yet they want to choose Christ on their own terms with their own will to be good enough....that's not it my friend; and I am not saying this to one up, or make you angry, I am point out what the bible tells us.

I urge you to reexamine some of what you have written in this and other threads about sin and salvation. If you don't like John Calvin fine, but John Calvin is not yours or anyone else s problem when it comes to accepting Christ and being saved.

 

[Digger]

Danus,


You completely misunderstand everything I have written.

Repentance and faith do not merit salvation. Repentance and faith are conditions that God has ordained through which He will do the work of salvation in an individual.

Turning from and forsaking sin does not merit salvation.

Look at what happened in Nineveh.

Jon 3:5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.
Jon 3:6 For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.
Jon 3:7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:
Jon 3:8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
Jon 3:9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
Jon 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Those in Nineveh did not presume anything. Turning from their rebellion did not merit them salvation in anyway. God granting forgiveness was all of God, it was God's grace and His mercy. But God would not have forgiven then unless they had forsaken their evil.

Look at the Prodigal Son.

Luk 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
Luk 15:21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
Luk 15:22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:

The repentance of the son did not merit the compassion of the father, yet the compassion of the father was conditioned on the repentance of the son. The father did not go to the son in the pig pen and drag him out.

Likewise Noah, through exercising an obedient faith, did not merit salvation. Noah just met the requirements that God has set forth.

Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.



This has nothing to do with facing God on our own merit. It is about being reconciled to God through a genuine repentance and faith via the blood of Jesus Christ and then being quickened by God.

You say,

God came to earth and humbled himself as a man; Jesus Christ. He lived the life you and I can not, and he took on our sins as as the perfect sacrifice to pay a debt we can not. (God did that for us) Whom ever places their trust in THAT, has eternal life. God has spelled this out well enough in the bible without having to write in crayon.

Where does it say in the Bible that you just have to simply trust in what Jesus did and do nothing? It doesn't.

Noah had to do something. The Prodigal Son had to do something. Those in Nineveh had to do something. Abraham had to do something.

What did they have to do? They had to submit to God and walk in His steps. It is a very simple message.

Your gospel is simply not the gospel of the Bible, sure you can proof text it by isolating various scriptures and using them out of context, Satan did that when he tempted Jesus in the wilderness.

What I speak is the plain truth. It cannot be refuted with scripture because it is the truth. It may not be a truth many like to hear because it destroys the cloak they thought they were wearing.

We have to count all our preconceived biases as dung and submit to the truth whatever that may be. Opinions are not worth anything if they contradict the truth. It is better find the truth now than at the judgment. I urge you to consider carefully these things.

The message of Jesus was strive, dig deep, be a doer of the word, go and sin no more, count the cost, deny yourself, pick up your cross, few will be saved, endure to the end, if you continue in my word, etc.

Who are you going to believe? Are you going to believe what Jesus said or what the wolves in the church system say?

 

[Webb]

True, faith and repentance are conditions of salvation, now whats the other condition or conditions by which God grants salvation?

 

[Digger]

My problem with your post isn't so much the other aspects of salvation that you bring to light (living faith, etc..) so much as it is the fact that you call so many of my Christian brothers and sisters heretics. Calling someone a heretic is a big deal and shouldn't be done lightly imo.

The fact is that the gospel message of "confess, trust, receive" which is based on "moral transfer, substitution, sins forgiven in advance" is actually heresy. It is not true and one simply cannot ignore that fact and say, "oh well we agree to disagree, can't we all just get on in the name of Jesus."

The gospel being preached everywhere is a dangerous lie which totally neutralizes the power of the real Gospel. Just because so many believe it doesn't mean it has any value.

When Jeremiah walked the earth the entire religious system was totally apostate. In Elijah's day there was a remnant of 7000 which had not bent the knee to Baal. When Jesus walked the earth the religious establishment was totally corrupt and of Satan. Yet people think that somehow today it would be different?

Satan is not some icon with horns and a pitchfork, he is real and he means business. Satan means to deceive you. Satan wants to destroy you. Satan does not want you to know how to be reconciled to God. Satan will misdirect you in very subtle ways.

Instead of denying fundamentals such as the divinity of Jesus, His resurrection, etc. Satan will use error to redefine the gospel. That is what has happened.

If that is not happened then please explain why "confess, trust and receive" is the message in the Church system when Jesus taught no such thing anywhere?

Can you explain that please?

 

[Danus]

The fact is that the gospel message of "confess, trust, receive" which is based on "moral transfer, substitution, sins forgiven in advance" is actually heresy. It is not true and one simply cannot ignore that fact and say, "oh well we agree to disagree, can't we all just get on in the name of Jesus."

The gospel being preached everywhere is a dangerous lie which totally neutralizes the power of the real Gospel. Just because so many believe it doesn't mean it has any value.

When Jeremiah walked the earth the entire religious system was totally apostate. In Elijah's day there was a remnant of 7000 which had not bent the knee to Baal. When Jesus walked the earth the religious establishment was totally corrupt and of Satan. Yet people think that somehow today it would be different?

Satan is not some icon with horns and a pitchfork, he is real and he means business. Satan means to deceive you. Satan wants to destroy you. Satan does not want you to know how to be reconciled to God. Satan will misdirect you in very subtle ways.

Instead of denying fundamentals such as the divinity of Jesus, His resurrection, etc. Satan will use error to redefine the gospel. That is what has happened.

If that is not happened then please explain why "confess, trust and receive" is the message in the Church system when Jesus taught no such thing anywhere?

Can you explain that please?

The gospel is a lie? You say Christ died for our sins, then you say only for past sins. Then you say repentance does not merit salvation...this is ridiculous.

Do you honestly think people need someone to interpret the gospel? Some how you have a secrete code to which you are still unclear about, but only you and perhaps a hand full of others understand it? All churches are fraudulently leading people in to hell because those people just don't know what you know? Give me a break.

Digger, At this point this thread has gone the way of all Calvin basher threads. It's failed. It makes no sense.

 

[Danus]

True, faith and repentance are conditions of salvation, now whats the other condition or conditions by which God grants salvation?

Thank you Webb, I want to know this as well. Digger? What else must be done to be saved?

 

[Digger]

The gospel is a lie? You say Christ died for our sins, then you say only for past sins.

The false gospel is the lie, not the one found in the Bible.

The Bible says past sins. Your issue is with the Bible not me...

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Show me a scripture where it says that all your sins are forgiven in advance?



No code, just the plain scripture. Why doesn't anyone address any of the scriptures I have quoted?

If it doesn't make sense it is because you have eyes but cannot see.

Isa 44:18 They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.

All my posts simply promote the fact that in order to enter the kingdom you must strive, be diligent, count the cost, forsake all known sin, dig deep, put your hand to the plow, deny self, pick up your cross, crucify the old man, be a doer of the word, depart from iniquity etc.

Yet you say that all we have to do is confess, trust and receive.

Who is trying to deceive who here?



Again show me a scripture anywhere in the Bible where it says that your sins are forgiven in advance. I showed you two where it speaks of past sins.

 

[Digger]

True, faith and repentance are conditions of salvation, now whats the other condition or conditions by which God grants salvation?

Repentance and faith cover all the conditions. If you truly repent and you are walking by faith then you will be a doer of the word by obeying from the heart and will thus be a servant of righteousness.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

 

[Danus]

Repentance and faith cover all the conditions. If you truly repent and you are walking by faith then you will be a doer of the word by obeying from the heart and will thus be a servant of righteousness.

I think we've come full circle Digger, and the only thing we've learned from you is that you don't like protestants, you call them heretics, liers, tools of the devil I suppose.

Everyone is wrong about the bible ....but you, and a hand full of others who have come and gone on this site and others to bash certain Christians on nonessential theology. You've still not come up with an alternative to what you complain about, and you claim so many people are wrong in what they understand of the gospel.

You say Christ died for our sins, and that Christ was god and the path to salvation is repentance and faith, but Christ only dies for past sins, not future sins.....: So I guess what you believe is that once you are come to Christ in repentance and faith, faith you muster yourself I guess, once that happens you are sin free. :...Still not clear on that. However, once all this takes place don't ask Christ to help you anymore because he only died for past sins... : I guess you only get one shot at salvation? .....again, your not clear, not making sence and you hate John Calvin That's all I got .

...the only thing I can add to this is what started with, nonsense. Pious nonsense.
Have a nice day.

 

[Digger]

So I guess what you believe is that once you are come to Christ in repentance and faith, faith you muster yourself I guess, once that happens you are sin free. :...Still not clear on that. However, once all this takes place don't ask Christ to help you anymore because he only died for past sins... : I guess you only get one shot at salvation? .....again, your not clear, not making sence and you hate John Calvin That's all I got .

God is calling all men to repentance (Acts 17:30, Rom 2:4, 2Pet 3:9).

Repentance is wrought through a godly sorrow (2Cor 7:10-11).

Repentance involves of a genuine change of mind, inclination and desires whereby an individual casts themselves meekly at the mercy of God having forsaken all their known sin (Jon 3:6-9, Jam 1:21, Luk 15:18-21). In the same way that a wild horse is broken so that it will submit to a rider, the human heart is broken so it will submit to God (Mat 21:44). The rebellion is completely purged from the heart in through this process leaving the new convert willing to yield to the leading of God (Jam1:21, Jon3:6-9, Mat 5:3-6, Jam 4:8-10).

God offers mercy to all those who will confess and forsake their rebellion and turn back to Him (Isa 55:7, Pro 28:13, Jer 26:13, Jon 3:10, Jas 4:8, Mat 13:15).

Genuine repentance can only occur through a genuine faith, one must first believe that God exists and diligently seek Him (Heb 11:6).

Upon casting themselves willingly at the mercy of God in all meekness, having forsaken all rebellion, God will respond to an individual by renewing them spiritually (Acts 3:19). They will be quickened from their spiritually dead state (Eph 2:5, Rom 6:4, Col 2:13, 2Cor 5:5), thus the heart being circumcised by God (Col 2:11).

All the past crimes against God are purged and washed away by the blood of Jesus Christ (Rom 3:25, 1Joh 1:7, 1 Joh 1:9, 2 Cor 5:17, 2 Pet 1:9, Heb 9:14) A new believer is now washed and sanctified (1 Cor 6:11), a babe in Christ laying aside the works of the flesh (1 Pet 2:1-3), the old man having been crucified in repentance with Christ (Rom 6:6, Gal 2:20, Gal 5:24, Gal 6:14).

Being raised up and set free from sin (Joh 8:36, Rom 6:7, Rom 6:17) having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust (2Pet 1:4), ceased from sin (1Pet 4:1), the new believer now walks by the faith of Jesus Christ (Gal 2:20) keeping their body in subjection (Rom 8:13, Rom 6:11-15, 1Cor 9:24-27), abiding in Christ and bearing fruit (Joh 15:3-4, Gal 5:22-23) as they walk after the Spirit fulfilling the righteous requirements of the law (Rom 8:4) with the law established in the heart (Rom 3:31. Not under the law but rather fulfilling the law by a faith that works by love (Gal 5:6, Gal 5:14, Gal 5:18, Heb 10:38).

The believer is then to grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ (2Pet 3:18) and be careful not to be drawn away into error (2Pet 3:17, Col 2:8, Act 20:29-31), being found blameless unto the coming of the Lord (1Thess 5:23, 2 Pet 3:14, Tit 2:13-14).

None of this is by our own power or merit but rather is a result of a genuine faith yielding to the working of the power of God in us (Eph 2:8-10, 2Cor 6:1, Col 2:12, Joh 15:4, Gal 2:20).



Pious nonsense?

That is a real shame and it makes me really sad to read that.

 

[Former Christian]

Digger

It is a beautiful message.

Is it? Not the way you tell it. Not to me who has to pray according to 1 John 1:9 on a constant basis. Not because I don’t walk by the Spirit, but because I do. If I didn’t walk by the Spirit, I would have no more sensitivity to sin than a bug.

This is what you said earlier,

I have been set free from the bondage of sin.

If you sin then you are still under the dominion of sin. By sin I am speaking in the context of 1Jon 4:4, Jam 4:17, Jam 1:14-15, I am not talking about falling short in the sense of making a mistake or misjudgment. I am talking about willful transgression, outright rebellion to God.

And then through several verse quotations implied that one who hasn’t your experience is lost. That’s got a lot of people up in arms. Including me.

You say you have been delivered from sin. I would like to talk to your wife, if you have one. If you’re not a wife beater, and if she’s not one to just agree with everything for the sake of the marriage, no doubt she would have something to say about that.

I wouldn’t worry too much about someone who uses the “everyone’s wrong about the bible but you†trick. They like to use that a lot on me on this forum. We all believe what we believe and we run with it. Naturally what others think must be wrong by comparison. Those who use that trick never realize that they’re in the same boat as every one they accuse.

I’m a former Christian. You almost convince me to be a non-Christian. For if I believed what you believe, after all this time, I would no longer believe in the efficacy of Christ. the experience would be no different with or without Christ. After so many years, I have no experience of being set free from the bondage of sin. And I know I’m not set free. Not because I make it a habit to walk by the flesh. Rather, because I make a conscious effort to walk by the Spirit. Perhaps, if you’re open minded, you can understand a little why I must oppose what you are saying.

In the view I present, you aren’t taking into consideration growth into the image of Christ. Not all are going to be perfect. In fact in all my travels, I’ve yet to meet a perfect Christian. I don’t know you. So I don’t know about you. But according to my experience, I have no choice but to judge you deluded in your estimation of your situation.

You need to start reading all these verses you like to use, in their context. You might find they say something entirely different then you think. When Paul says,

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

It’s followed by,

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

When Paul says,

1 Corinthians 6:
9 ¶ Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

It’s followed by,

1Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

When Paul says,

Hebrews 6:
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

It’s followed by,

Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

And a little further on,

Hebrews 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

When Paul says,

Hebrews 10:
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

But a little further he says,

Hebrews 10:
32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

You’re trusting in “I have been set free from the bondage of sin.â€. when actually you should be trusting in God and in the faith of Christ. You’re looking for assurance in your works. And you deceive yourself by doing so. Even John MacArthur, who started the “Lordship Salvation†controversy, doesn’t go where you’re going on this thread.

Romans 8:
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
(KJV)

Now I realize that Christians don’t understand the bible alike. And I’m probably wasting my time with all this bible quotation. I don’t like to quote the bible on that account.

But the first thing Paul says is that there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ. The Byzantine text here used also adds, “who walks after the Spirit and not after the fleshâ€. Some have used this to imply that if one walks after the flesh, then one will automatically lose their salvation. As if one can jump in and out of Christ at will. But right at the beginning it has that little bothersome phrase, “which are in Christ Jesusâ€. Now, does that mean that if one is walking after the flesh one is then not in Christ? Paul would have stopped at vs. 1 if that were the case. Or at least vs. 4. No more need be said. Either one is walking after one or the other. But Paul doesn’t stop there. He goes on and talks about the difference. Why do that? Wouldn’t the works be evidence enough to tell the difference? Apparently, Paul didn’t think so.

Now, note at the very end, in vs. 9. He says, “But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit. If so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in youâ€. Then he says, “Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.†Here is the question. Who baptizes one into Christ? Do we do that ourselves by our own faith, or is it done some other way? The answer to that question determines how one understands vss. 9-10.

At the end of Galatians 5, Paul says this,

Ga 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Get that? If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Doesn’t that imply that Paul knew of some who were alive in Spirit, but walking in the flesh? Isn’t 1 Corinthians sufficient to show the possibility?

Those who are walking after the Spirit by faith thus need no law.

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Do you know of any other way besides understanding the Law for that to be possible or meaningful? Do you think the Law becomes instinct or enters by osmosis the one who is in Christ, even though the Law has never been read? And don’t bring up the we don’t need rules trick. It’s irrelevant. Apart from the Law there is no sin. Who needs rules if nothing is wrong?

When Jesus says,

Mt 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Or

Matthew 22:
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Without even knowing what the Law is, how does this have any meaning?

Or do we even need a bible once we walk by the Spirit? To say we no longer need the bible once we’ve come to Christ is right next door to saying we no longer need the Law once we’ve come to Christ. Six of one, half dozen of the other. Apart fom the Law, we are free to do what we want. There’s no reason to say “I have been set free from the bondage of sin.â€. There’s no sin to be in bondage to, or to be set free from.

FC