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Faith or Works?

Josef

Member
Hey All,
I found this, and wanted to show how taking a verse out of context distorts the meaning of the verse. This was used to promote a faith through works agenda that some cults hold to.

Jesus says: 'Do your first Works!' Rev 2:5
Today they say: 'It's not of Works'

They have taken a portion of a verse to make it look like Scripture agrees with their point of view. Here is the full verse:

Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

(I love King James version for the old style words, so melodic, so serene. "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent." Today's language, imagined by me as a drill sargent, "Suck it up cupcake. Get back in the fight." Sorry for the tangent. I find humor in the strangest places.)

Back to what I was showing you:

The whole verse is quite different than what is being used above, wouldn't you say? This is Jesus' warning to the church at Ephesus. They were a good church. But they had left their first love. What does that mean? They were no longer Christ centered. They were meeting in Christ's name, but not doing the prayer, praise, worship, and teaching (the works or actions of salvation) like they had earlier.

Jesus is telling them in verse five remember who you are and where you came from. "Repent and 'do the first works'; or else."Jesus is talking to backslidden believers here. Repentance always comes before works. Do you know why?

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Your works can only be righteous if you are righteous. Jesus has to be in you before you can be righteous. (I know! Makes total sense. Mind blown!💥)

That is why faith through works can't work.
They are not works because there is no righteousness in them.

Misrepresenting Jesus' words to mean the opposite of what He said, as was done in my opening example, is the exact opposite of a good idea. Revelation 22:18-19 I would not want to be these guys.

The "or else" statement in the second half of the verse should worry backslidden Christians. The Ephesians were what we would consider backslidden. They said the words of repentance, maybe were baptized, maybe even performed works, but have reverted to their old ways.

" . . . I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."

A candlestick that doesn't produce light is useless. A believer that doesn't produce light, (a continued state of being backslidden) may be in jeopardy of being removed. Just what place Jesus is referring to? I don't want to find out.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz
 
Hi Josef

I'm confident that we are only saved by faith. I'm also confident that those who will be saved do the good works that God has prepared for us to do. So salvation does not come from works, but works come from salvation. I believe this is what James is saying when he tells us that without works our faith is dead.

God bless,
Ted
 
Well its very simple nothing done in faith is works.Works is something a non believer does. I will write my own parable here.
Two Christians come across a poor person on the street at different times. One sees the poor person and says if I help this man its works and I cannot buy my salvation by works I only need to believe and have faith so he crosses the street and avoids the man.The second Christians sees the man and looks up to God and says oh lord you said if I see the poor I see you I will help this man in your name. Which one did the will of God and lived in faith?
 
Hey All,
I found this, and wanted to show how taking a verse out of context distorts the meaning of the verse. This was used to promote a faith through works agenda that some cults hold to.

Jesus says: 'Do your first Works!' Rev 2:5
Today they say: 'It's not of Works'

They have taken a portion of a verse to make it look like Scripture agrees with their point of view. Here is the full verse:

Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

(I love King James version for the old style words, so melodic, so serene. "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent." Today's language, imagined by me as a drill sargent, "Suck it up cupcake. Get back in the fight." Sorry for the tangent. I find humor in the strangest places.)

Back to what I was showing you:

The whole verse is quite different than what is being used above, wouldn't you say? This is Jesus' warning to the church at Ephesus. They were a good church. But they had left their first love. What does that mean? They were no longer Christ centered. They were meeting in Christ's name, but not doing the prayer, praise, worship, and teaching (the works or actions of salvation) like they had earlier.

Jesus is telling them in verse five remember who you are and where you came from. "Repent and 'do the first works'; or else."Jesus is talking to backslidden believers here. Repentance always comes before works. Do you know why?

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Your works can only be righteous if you are righteous. Jesus has to be in you before you can be righteous. (I know! Makes total sense. Mind blown!💥)

That is why faith through works can't work.
They are not works because there is no righteousness in them.

Misrepresenting Jesus' words to mean the opposite of what He said, as was done in my opening example, is the exact opposite of a good idea. Revelation 22:18-19 I would not want to be these guys.

The "or else" statement in the second half of the verse should worry backslidden Christians. The Ephesians were what we would consider backslidden. They said the words of repentance, maybe were baptized, maybe even performed works, but have reverted to their old ways.

" . . . I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."

A candlestick that doesn't produce light is useless. A believer that doesn't produce light, (a continued state of being backslidden) may be in jeopardy of being removed. Just what place Jesus is referring to? I don't want to find out.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz
I think Gods Word makes clear the answer...

James 2:14-20
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
 
Jesus said, if you love me you will obey my commands.

We are saved by faith, But because we Love Jesus we do good deeds.
The two go together like ham and eggs, strawberries and cream.
As James said show me your faith without works while I by my works will show you my faith.
 
Why does it say “l know Thy works”? And not I know Thy faith?
Rev 2:2

Or why is there no beatitude that speaks of faith or “faith alone”?

Scripture verses that opposes “Faith alone”!

Mk 16:16 faith & baptism
Jn 3:5 water & the spirit
Jn 15:4 abide in Christ
acts 2:38-39 repentance & baptism
acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
acts 22:16 name of the Lord & baptism
rom 10:10 faith & confession
1 cor 13:2 faith & charity
1 cor 13:13 faith, hope, & charity
1 cor 16:22 love of Jesus Christ
Rom 8:17 faith and suffering
2 Timothy 2:12
1 thes 1:3 faith, love, patience / 2 thes 1:4 / 1 Tim 6:11 /
Col 1:24 sufferings
Philemon 1:5 love and faith
Phil 1:29 called to suffer not faith alone
Titus 2:2 faith, love, patience
James 2:24 faith & works
Heb 6:12 faith & patience / rev 13:10
Rev 2:19 works, charity, service, faith, patience
Rev 12:17 testimony of Jesus & commandments
Rev 2:19 & rev 13:10 & Rev 14:12 commandments & patience
Three things are eternal! 1 cor 13:13

Faith, Hope, & Charity!
 
Hey All,
Alright donadams, and everybody else, buckle up; this will be a long one. Let's do some rightly dividing.

Mk 16:16 faith & baptism
A disputed( passage not found in some codexes) faith is required for the baptism to mean anything other than getting wet

Jn 3:5 water & the spirit
What do you believe water and the spirit mean? I believe water is the physical birth. The spirit is obviously belief in Jesus. Jesus does not mention any other requirements.

Jn 15:4 abide in Christ
Jesus is talking to His believing disciples. (excluding Judas of course) So I am not sure how you are applying this. Jesus is telling His disciples to live in Him, an He in them. This only requires the faith to believe. We know that this faith comes from God. So not a work. Faith is a gift.

acts 2:38-39 repentance & baptism
If you believe baptism to be the second work after salvation, I agree. (I know somewhere on your list is going to be speaking, or confession as a work. I have seen lists like this before.) But again we see being born again, of which repentance is a part, comes first. If baptism is required, John 3:16 is not completely able, by itself, to save someone.

acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
You failed to mention verse 36-37.
Acts 8:36-37 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
What did Phillip say the eunuch lacked for the baptism to be effective? The lack of salvation is what hindered the eunuch. "And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest." Salvation is the requirement for baptism.

acts 22:16 name of the Lord & baptism
In verse 10 Paul calls the voice "Lord." He is obedient to the voice. Paul is a believer at this point. Why be obedient to someone, or something, you don't believe in? Paul is saved, and goes to Damascus as requested. We have salvation (forgiveness)and obedience (repentance), then baptism (confirmation).

rom 10:10 faith & confession
Here we are. Now speaking is a work according to you. I think that is really splitting hairs. If you want to call confession a work of the believer, that's a lame work. You cannot turn the gift of God into a work of mankind. Look at the rest of the chapter.
Righteousness is of God. v3
Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Belief in Jesus bestows that righteousness upon us. Righteousness is by faith. v5
The word of faith that Paul preaches is obtained by oral confession of what you believe in your heart; that Jesus is alive. v8-9
Pay very close attention to the end of verse 9.
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Salvation is believing in your heart, and confessing your belief orally.
Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Believing in your heart makes you righteous. Then confession is made unto salvation (You do know that unto is a future tense preposition. It's archaic for until: As in, "until death do us part.") But my point is that you are righteous, which means you have received God's grace, before you can make a cofession. of it.

1 cor 13:2 faith & charity
1 cor 13:13 faith, hope, & charity
You have to have charity (the love of God) for faith hope and charity (the gifts of the Holy Spirit) to be effective. v1
The love of God must be in you first.

1 cor 16:22 love of Jesus Christ
Not sure why this one made your list.
Anathema - let him be accursed
Maranatha - our Lord comes
I think I just got it. Are you saying our love is a work? We soooo disagree. Our love for God is a direct effect of God bestowing His grace upon us through faith in Jesus. Eph. 2:8
The end verse 8, and the next verse, Paul makes it clear that the faith (that delivers the grace) is the gift of God so man cannot boast. Eph. 2:9 Our love is a result of that faith.

Rom 8:17 faith and suffering
We have to have the faith in order to suffer for it. It is a result of salvation; not a cause for it.

2 Timothy 2:12
Right above, in verse 10,
2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Salvation is in Christ Jesus. Nothing else is mentioned. Suffering is a result. Verse 12 is talking about the believer enduring. The endurance is proof of their salvation.

1 thes 1:3 faith, love, patience / 2 thes 1:4 / 1 Tim 6:11 /
1 Thes. 1:3 - All three fruits of the Spirit come through "the church which is in God. They are exhibiting some of the gifts of the Spirit

2 thes 1:4 - Paul is writing about their growing faith v3; and about how even in times of suffering they were faithful and endured it. Of course suffering is a work. But it was not the cause of their salvation. They were saved first; then suffered for being saved.

1 Tim 6:11 - Paul is telling Timothy to run away from temptation and lust. v9-10 What does he call Timothy? Timothy is a "man of God." Only a saved person can exhibit the gifts of the Holy Spirit. None of these are works unto salvation. (Notice the proper usage? Future tense.) The gifts are not even ours.

Col 1:24 sufferings
Paul was made a minister. v23 Saved first.

Philemon 1:5 love and faith
Paul calls Philemon a fellowlaborer. Philemon is saved. His love and faith are fruits of the Holy Spirit

Phil 1:29 called to suffer not faith alone
Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Be honest. You didn't look at this verse. You are too smart to not notice the order in which it is written. Christ gives us the ability to believe in Him, and to suffer for Him.

Titus 2:2 faith, love, patience
Paul is telling Titus to teach sound doctrine. Why? So that the old men of the church (the elders) will be, among other attributes, sound of faith. Which, of course, is their faith In Jesus. Their gifts, from the Holy Spirit, love and patience, come through it.

James 2:24 faith & works
James is talking to believers. They already have faith. So what, then, are the fundamental works of the believer?
Acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

We do these four fundamental works so we can grow in grace and the Holy Spirit can work through us.

Heb 6:12 faith & patience / rev 13:10
Faith comes first.

Rev 2:19 works, charity, service, faith, patience
John is talking to believers about their works. You didn't read this either. I thought the first one was just a mistake. Not so with this verse. The answer is right in the verse. Jesus is talking about their works as believers. You have to know that. I won't answer you again like this. I will finish the list for the others here. This feeling that I have is like trusting someone with my most prized possession, and finding out they stole it. Never again with you sir. I feel like such an idiot.

Rev 12:17 testimony of Jesus & commandments
The woman represents Israel, her remnant represents those people of Israel who are saved. This description of the rest of the woman's seed clearly identifies believers in Jesus. As Jewish believers, they will keep the commandments, and will have the testimony of Jesus. You cannot have the testimony of Christ, if you don't keep the commandments. Unbelievers do not keep the commandments; nor do they testify in true faith. You have to have faith before you can keep the commandments, or truthfully testify of said faith.

Rev 2:19 & rev 13:10 & Rev 14:12 commandments & patience
Rev 2:19 - As mentioned, you did not read this verse.

Rev 13:10 - This beast makes war with the saints: And he wins. All unbelievers will bow down and worship him. Those who do not will be imprisoned, or killed. John is telling the saints (believers) still alive to have patience and faith. They already have faith in God. Verse 10 is telling them to have faith that God will

Rev 14:2 -
Revelation 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

I do not see anything remotely relevant to faith or works. I suspect another verse listed but not read.

Three things are eternal! 1 cor 13:13

Faith, Hope, & Charity!
You don't even have this right. Faith and hope are temporary. They will be replaced with knowledge. We will know God. Faith or hope will not be necessary.

And that my friends is an example of someone performing Scripture manipulation (taking Scripture out of context) to try and make it say what it doesn't really say. You can see how misleading it can become.
Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz
 
4th sentence I saw, a quote of faith, hope and charity........ sorrowfully mis-translated.
Does anyone know what is meant by Yahweh in His Word that is mistranslated here , in most English Bibles, as "charity"? - which , at least as far as I was able to find out over decades, is not even the word in Hebrew language, not the meaning in context whether in Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic.
 
4th sentence I saw, a quote of faith, hope and charity........ sorrowfully mis-translated.
Does anyone know what is meant by Yahweh in His Word that is mistranslated here , in most English Bibles, as "charity"? - which , at least as far as I was able to find out over decades, is not even the word in Hebrew language, not the meaning in context whether in Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic.

Hello, Follower.

So you understand, it's important to quote someone if you are referring to something they said. If you try and refer to "3rd sentence" or "4th sentence" that can get very confusing.

But to quote someone's statements, you can do it two ways:

1. Press down and hold your cursor, and run it over just the sentence you are wanting to quote. When you release the cursor, a small icon should show up that says "reply." Click that and it will send your quoted passage to your reply box. Then you just type in how you wanted to respond.

2. The other way is to simply click the "Reply" box at the bottom right corner of his post. That will send the entire quote to your box, and then you have to delete everything but the part you want to refer to manually.

Please do this. It makes it easier for people to understand what you are saying and asking.

To everyone else, make sure this conversation remains civil.

Blessings in Christ,
Hidden In Him.
 
I couldn't edit my post, so here is how I would word it now if I could edit it.

You have a limited time (30 minutes) to edit in this forum. But I wasn't complaining about your post so much as simply showing you how to better communicate with other members.

God bless,
- H
 
Hey All,
I found this, and wanted to show how taking a verse out of context distorts the meaning of the verse. This was used to promote a faith through works agenda that some cults hold to.

Jesus says: 'Do your first Works!' Rev 2:5
Today they say: 'It's not of Works'

They have taken a portion of a verse to make it look like Scripture agrees with their point of view. Here is the full verse:

Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

(I love King James version for the old style words, so melodic, so serene. "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent." Today's language, imagined by me as a drill sargent, "Suck it up cupcake. Get back in the fight." Sorry for the tangent. I find humor in the strangest places.)

Back to what I was showing you:

The whole verse is quite different than what is being used above, wouldn't you say? This is Jesus' warning to the church at Ephesus. They were a good church. But they had left their first love. What does that mean? They were no longer Christ centered. They were meeting in Christ's name, but not doing the prayer, praise, worship, and teaching (the works or actions of salvation) like they had earlier.

Jesus is telling them in verse five remember who you are and where you came from. "Repent and 'do the first works'; or else."Jesus is talking to backslidden believers here. Repentance always comes before works. Do you know why?

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Your works can only be righteous if you are righteous. Jesus has to be in you before you can be righteous. (I know! Makes total sense. Mind blown!💥)

That is why faith through works can't work.
They are not works because there is no righteousness in them.

Misrepresenting Jesus' words to mean the opposite of what He said, as was done in my opening example, is the exact opposite of a good idea. Revelation 22:18-19 I would not want to be these guys.

The "or else" statement in the second half of the verse should worry backslidden Christians. The Ephesians were what we would consider backslidden. They said the words of repentance, maybe were baptized, maybe even performed works, but have reverted to their old ways.

" . . . I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."

A candlestick that doesn't produce light is useless. A believer that doesn't produce light, (a continued state of being backslidden) may be in jeopardy of being removed. Just what place Jesus is referring to? I don't want to find out.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz
As long as we remember that the only "works" written against by Paul were the works of the Law, you should be alright.
Circumcision, dietary rules, sabbath keeping, feast keeping, tithing, and dozens of other things will save no one.
Unfortunately, some have gone so far as saying that even telling the truth (as opposed to telling a lie) is verboten.
To the deceived, repentance from sin, baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, and enduring faithfully until the end, are "works" for salvation.
It is the fruit of the false OSAS doctrines.
 
Well its very simple nothing done in faith is works.Works is something a non believer does. I will write my own parable here.
Two Christians come across a poor person on the street at different times. One sees the poor person and says if I help this man its works and I cannot buy my salvation by works I only need to believe and have faith so he crosses the street and avoids the man.The second Christians sees the man and looks up to God and says oh lord you said if I see the poor I see you I will help this man in your name. Which one did the will of God and lived in faith?
Good parable !
 
Hey All,
Alright donadams, and everybody else, buckle up; this will be a long one. Let's do some rightly dividing.

Mk 16:16 faith & baptism
A disputed( passage not found in some codexes) faith is required for the baptism to mean anything other than getting wet

Jn 3:5 water & the spirit
What do you believe water and the spirit mean? I believe water is the physical birth. The spirit is obviously belief in Jesus. Jesus does not mention any other requirements.

Jn 15:4 abide in Christ
Jesus is talking to His believing disciples. (excluding Judas of course) So I am not sure how you are applying this. Jesus is telling His disciples to live in Him, an He in them. This only requires the faith to believe. We know that this faith comes from God. So not a work. Faith is a gift.

acts 2:38-39 repentance & baptism
If you believe baptism to be the second work after salvation, I agree. (I know somewhere on your list is going to be speaking, or confession as a work. I have seen lists like this before.) But again we see being born again, of which repentance is a part, comes first. If baptism is required, John 3:16 is not completely able, by itself, to save someone.

acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
You failed to mention verse 36-37.
Acts 8:36-37 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
What did Phillip say the eunuch lacked for the baptism to be effective? The lack of salvation is what hindered the eunuch. "And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest." Salvation is the requirement for baptism.

acts 22:16 name of the Lord & baptism
In verse 10 Paul calls the voice "Lord." He is obedient to the voice. Paul is a believer at this point. Why be obedient to someone, or something, you don't believe in? Paul is saved, and goes to Damascus as requested. We have salvation (forgiveness)and obedience (repentance), then baptism (confirmation).

rom 10:10 faith & confession
Here we are. Now speaking is a work according to you. I think that is really splitting hairs. If you want to call confession a work of the believer, that's a lame work. You cannot turn the gift of God into a work of mankind. Look at the rest of the chapter.
Righteousness is of God. v3
Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Belief in Jesus bestows that righteousness upon us. Righteousness is by faith. v5
The word of faith that Paul preaches is obtained by oral confession of what you believe in your heart; that Jesus is alive. v8-9
Pay very close attention to the end of verse 9.
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Salvation is believing in your heart, and confessing your belief orally.
Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Believing in your heart makes you righteous. Then confession is made unto salvation (You do know that unto is a future tense preposition. It's archaic for until: As in, "until death do us part.") But my point is that you are righteous, which means you have received God's grace, before you can make a cofession. of it.

1 cor 13:2 faith & charity
1 cor 13:13 faith, hope, & charity
You have to have charity (the love of God) for faith hope and charity (the gifts of the Holy Spirit) to be effective. v1
The love of God must be in you first.

1 cor 16:22 love of Jesus Christ
Not sure why this one made your list.
Anathema - let him be accursed
Maranatha - our Lord comes
I think I just got it. Are you saying our love is a work? We soooo disagree. Our love for God is a direct effect of God bestowing His grace upon us through faith in Jesus. Eph. 2:8
The end verse 8, and the next verse, Paul makes it clear that the faith (that delivers the grace) is the gift of God so man cannot boast. Eph. 2:9 Our love is a result of that faith.

Rom 8:17 faith and suffering
We have to have the faith in order to suffer for it. It is a result of salvation; not a cause for it.

2 Timothy 2:12
Right above, in verse 10,
2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Salvation is in Christ Jesus. Nothing else is mentioned. Suffering is a result. Verse 12 is talking about the believer enduring. The endurance is proof of their salvation.

1 thes 1:3 faith, love, patience / 2 thes 1:4 / 1 Tim 6:11 /
1 Thes. 1:3 - All three fruits of the Spirit come through "the church which is in God. They are exhibiting some of the gifts of the Spirit

2 thes 1:4 - Paul is writing about their growing faith v3; and about how even in times of suffering they were faithful and endured it. Of course suffering is a work. But it was not the cause of their salvation. They were saved first; then suffered for being saved.

1 Tim 6:11 - Paul is telling Timothy to run away from temptation and lust. v9-10 What does he call Timothy? Timothy is a "man of God." Only a saved person can exhibit the gifts of the Holy Spirit. None of these are works unto salvation. (Notice the proper usage? Future tense.) The gifts are not even ours.

Col 1:24 sufferings
Paul was made a minister. v23 Saved first.

Philemon 1:5 love and faith
Paul calls Philemon a fellowlaborer. Philemon is saved. His love and faith are fruits of the Holy Spirit

Phil 1:29 called to suffer not faith alone
Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Be honest. You didn't look at this verse. You are too smart to not notice the order in which it is written. Christ gives us the ability to believe in Him, and to suffer for Him.

Titus 2:2 faith, love, patience
Paul is telling Titus to teach sound doctrine. Why? So that the old men of the church (the elders) will be, among other attributes, sound of faith. Which, of course, is their faith In Jesus. Their gifts, from the Holy Spirit, love and patience, come through it.

James 2:24 faith & works
James is talking to believers. They already have faith. So what, then, are the fundamental works of the believer?
Acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

We do these four fundamental works so we can grow in grace and the Holy Spirit can work through us.

Heb 6:12 faith & patience / rev 13:10
Faith comes first.

Rev 2:19 works, charity, service, faith, patience
John is talking to believers about their works. You didn't read this either. I thought the first one was just a mistake. Not so with this verse. The answer is right in the verse. Jesus is talking about their works as believers. You have to know that. I won't answer you again like this. I will finish the list for the others here. This feeling that I have is like trusting someone with my most prized possession, and finding out they stole it. Never again with you sir. I feel like such an idiot.

Rev 12:17 testimony of Jesus & commandments
The woman represents Israel, her remnant represents those people of Israel who are saved. This description of the rest of the woman's seed clearly identifies believers in Jesus. As Jewish believers, they will keep the commandments, and will have the testimony of Jesus. You cannot have the testimony of Christ, if you don't keep the commandments. Unbelievers do not keep the commandments; nor do they testify in true faith. You have to have faith before you can keep the commandments, or truthfully testify of said faith.

Rev 2:19 & rev 13:10 & Rev 14:12 commandments & patience
Rev 2:19 - As mentioned, you did not read this verse.

Rev 13:10 - This beast makes war with the saints: And he wins. All unbelievers will bow down and worship him. Those who do not will be imprisoned, or killed. John is telling the saints (believers) still alive to have patience and faith. They already have faith in God. Verse 10 is telling them to have faith that God will

Rev 14:2 -
Revelation 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

I do not see anything remotely relevant to faith or works. I suspect another verse listed but not read.

Three things are eternal! 1 cor 13:13

Faith, Hope, & Charity!
You don't even have this right. Faith and hope are temporary. They will be replaced with knowledge. We will know God. Faith or hope will not be necessary.

And that my friends is an example of someone performing Scripture manipulation (taking Scripture out of context) to try and make it say what it doesn't really say. You can see how misleading it can become.
Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz
So you believe the doctrine of “faith alone”?
 
Hey All,
I know a trap question when I get one donadams. Nowhere in Scripture does it say, "faith alone." But the Bible does say "faith" alone. The only verse that comes close is James 2:24. We will touch on that verse later.

First, let's go to the most well-known verse in the Bible, John 3:16.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Belief in Jesus is the only requirement Jesus said was necessary for salvation. There is no argument that will win against this verse. The fact that Jesus said it should end this discussion. Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith.

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

That said, and pay attention here, this is the critically important caveat to the discussion: All, all other Scripture must agree with John 3:16. You have to have that mindset, or either Jesus, James, or Paul is lying. Yeah, that's how important this is.

Now let's look specifically at faith. The obvious place to look is Ephesians 2:8-10.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Grace is bestowed by God (we are made just), through faith (belief) that God provides (God's gift), in Jesus. This is not of works by man. We cannot brag that we did anything that warrants salvation. Believers are the product of God's work (not ours, God's work) We were Created in Christ unto (there's that future tense word again) good works. Works which God has previously (already) ordained (conferred by holy order) in which we are to walk (live our daily lives i.e. Keep walking everybody.).
Creation, in Christ, comes first. Then the work of salvation makes it possible to do good works. Nothing in this passage disagrees with John 3:16.

Now let's look at James.

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Justified - to be declared or made righteous in the sight of God.

I suspect this is the verse you were going to use had I taken the bait of the trap. It specifically says, "not by faith only." This makes it look like James is in direct conflict with what Jesus and Paul taught. But James is actually in agreement with Jesus and Paul. How can this be so?

Good works that will result in salvation was being taught by the Pharisees in Ephesus. Paul was responding to this teaching saying this is not so; that salvation is the work of God. James, however, is writing to converted Jews. He is telling them genuine faith always produces good works. Salvation justifies us before God. Good works justify us before man. James has already shown in 1:18, no one can be saved by good works.

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
BEGET', pret. begot, begat pp. begot, begotten - To procreate, as a father or sire to generate as, to beget a son

James says we are saved (born again ) by the will of God through the word of truth (Jesus). We are God's work; not our work, God's work. So James is not contradicting himself in vs 2:24. Because we are God's work. Our works are not necessary for salvation. But they are the sign of a living faith working within us. vs 2:17
In verse 22, he used the Greek word "eteleiōthē" (try saying that fast) to explain good works as the "completion," or the end result, of a living faith.

James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
wrought - verb; archaic past and past participle of work.
adjective: wrought - (of metals) beaten out or shaped by hammering.

James is still writing about God's works here, "his work." "And by works" (The pronoun "his" has not changed. So James is still writing about God's works.) was faith made perfect. This has to be God's works. Because our works, without God's works, are as filthy rags (unworthy). Isa. 64:6 James has been consistent in upholding faith as necessary for salvation.

Further, we are given the example of Abraham in verse 23.

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
impute - past tense: imputed
represent (something, especially something undesirable) as being done, caused, or possessed by someone

Abraham was considered righteous for believing God. James gives no other reason. Abraham exhibited his belief by being obedient to God. If you remember, as Abraham is taking Isaac to the place of sacrifice, Isaac asks Abraham where the sacrificial lamb was. Abraham responded:

Genesis 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

Obedience and trust are two of the works of salvation (faith) Abraham was exhibiting. He was living his faith. God had promised him earlier that He would make Abraham the father of many nations. Now God tells Abraham to sacrifice his only son. (Kinda hard to be the father of many nations without any offspring.) Only faith in God can produce this kind of trust and obedience. Abraham's faith was exhibited by his actions (works).

So in James 2:24, after using Abraham as the example, he tells us man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

If you are a believer, you should not have to tell me that you are. I should be able to see God's works in you through how you live your life. There is no such thing as a genuine faith that is "works-less." James is not claiming works are required for salvation. He is saying that a person's works prove their salvation.

Think about the parable of the talents. Mat 25:14-30 The last servant buried his talent instead of using it to earn more for his master. If the talent represents faith, then the burying of it is the equivalent of faith not being used. The other two servants used their master's talents and produced increased value. To the servant who did not use (do the works of faith) his talent; he was thrown into outer darkness.
Why?
He was not acting as a servant. The talent given (faith) was buried (hidden), and not being used (good works) to benefit the master. Therefore he was not a servant.

James did not proclaim that works are required for salvation. James is writing that a "faith" that has no works associated with it, is not a real faith. If there is no trust, no obedience, no repentance, no evidence of a changed life, there is also no faith. Because true faith is life-changing.

So James is not in disagreement with Jesus or Paul. Neither Jesus, nor Paul, nor James lied.
John 3:16 - belief in Jesus is all that is necessary for salvation.
Ephesians 2:8-10 - we are saved by grace through faith from God unto good works.
James 2:24 - works justify our faith as being genuine.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz
 
Hey All,
Now it's my turn to ask you a question.
Between salvation, and the believer performing good works, what must be done?

I promise this is not a trap. There is a Biblical answer.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz
 
Hey All,
I know a trap question when I get one donadams. Nowhere in Scripture does it say, "faith alone." But the Bible does say "faith" alone. The only verse that comes close is James 2:24. We will touch on that verse later.

First, let's go to the most well-known verse in the Bible, John 3:16.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Belief in Jesus is the only requirement Jesus said was necessary for salvation. There is no argument that will win against this verse. The fact that Jesus said it should end this discussion. Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith.

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

That said, and pay attention here, this is the critically important caveat to the discussion: All, all other Scripture must agree with John 3:16. You have to have that mindset, or either Jesus, James, or Paul is lying. Yeah, that's how important this is.

Now let's look specifically at faith. The obvious place to look is Ephesians 2:8-10.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Grace is bestowed by God (we are made just), through faith (belief) that God provides (God's gift), in Jesus. This is not of works by man. We cannot brag that we did anything that warrants salvation. Believers are the product of God's work (not ours, God's work) We were Created in Christ unto (there's that future tense word again) good works. Works which God has previously (already) ordained (conferred by holy order) in which we are to walk (live our daily lives i.e. Keep walking everybody.).
Creation, in Christ, comes first. Then the work of salvation makes it possible to do good works. Nothing in this passage disagrees with John 3:16.

Now let's look at James.

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Justified - to be declared or made righteous in the sight of God.

I suspect this is the verse you were going to use had I taken the bait of the trap. It specifically says, "not by faith only." This makes it look like James is in direct conflict with what Jesus and Paul taught. But James is actually in agreement with Jesus and Paul. How can this be so?

Good works that will result in salvation was being taught by the Pharisees in Ephesus. Paul was responding to this teaching saying this is not so; that salvation is the work of God. James, however, is writing to converted Jews. He is telling them genuine faith always produces good works. Salvation justifies us before God. Good works justify us before man. James has already shown in 1:18, no one can be saved by good works.

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
BEGET', pret. begot, begat pp. begot, begotten - To procreate, as a father or sire to generate as, to beget a son

James says we are saved (born again ) by the will of God through the word of truth (Jesus). We are God's work; not our work, God's work. So James is not contradicting himself in vs 2:24. Because we are God's work. Our works are not necessary for salvation. But they are the sign of a living faith working within us. vs 2:17
In verse 22, he used the Greek word "eteleiōthē" (try saying that fast) to explain good works as the "completion," or the end result, of a living faith.

James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
wrought - verb; archaic past and past participle of work.
adjective: wrought - (of metals) beaten out or shaped by hammering.

James is still writing about God's works here, "his work." "And by works" (The pronoun "his" has not changed. So James is still writing about God's works.) was faith made perfect. This has to be God's works. Because our works, without God's works, are as filthy rags (unworthy). Isa. 64:6 James has been consistent in upholding faith as necessary for salvation.

Further, we are given the example of Abraham in verse 23.

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
impute - past tense: imputed
represent (something, especially something undesirable) as being done, caused, or possessed by someone

Abraham was considered righteous for believing God. James gives no other reason. Abraham exhibited his belief by being obedient to God. If you remember, as Abraham is taking Isaac to the place of sacrifice, Isaac asks Abraham where the sacrificial lamb was. Abraham responded:

Genesis 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

Obedience and trust are two of the works of salvation (faith) Abraham was exhibiting. He was living his faith. God had promised him earlier that He would make Abraham the father of many nations. Now God tells Abraham to sacrifice his only son. (Kinda hard to be the father of many nations without any offspring.) Only faith in God can produce this kind of trust and obedience. Abraham's faith was exhibited by his actions (works).

So in James 2:24, after using Abraham as the example, he tells us man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

If you are a believer, you should not have to tell me that you are. I should be able to see God's works in you through how you live your life. There is no such thing as a genuine faith that is "works-less." James is not claiming works are required for salvation. He is saying that a person's works prove their salvation.

Think about the parable of the talents. Mat 25:14-30 The last servant buried his talent instead of using it to earn more for his master. If the talent represents faith, then the burying of it is the equivalent of faith not being used. The other two servants used their master's talents and produced increased value. To the servant who did not use (do the works of faith) his talent; he was thrown into outer darkness.
Why?
He was not acting as a servant. The talent given (faith) was buried (hidden), and not being used (good works) to benefit the master. Therefore he was not a servant.

James did not proclaim that works are required for salvation. James is writing that a "faith" that has no works associated with it, is not a real faith. If there is no trust, no obedience, no repentance, no evidence of a changed life, there is also no faith. Because true faith is life-changing.

So James is not in disagreement with Jesus or Paul. Neither Jesus, nor Paul, nor James lied.
John 3:16 - belief in Jesus is all that is necessary for salvation.
Ephesians 2:8-10 - we are saved by grace through faith from God unto good works.
James 2:24 - works justify our faith as being genuine.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz
Hi Josef
Love your posts.
And you're willing to do some hard work in your replies.

Would just like to disagree, maybe.

You're using John 3:16 as your battle cry.
BUT WAIT....

I'm sure you must know what BELIEVE means in Greek. So, actually, john 3,16 does contain works.

I have to agree that Jesus did not teach faith alone, all by itself.
But faith ACCOMPANIED by good deeds/works.
 
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