Faith VS. Doctrine

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

We can certainly believe without faith and not receive salvation (even the demons believe).

Please clarify what you mean by faith Edward? My understanding has always been that faith is a strong belief rooted in trust that prompts action. When one hears the gospel message of Jesus and believes it, one can then place their faith in Jesus as the Christ. Faith in Jesus then causes one to submit their lives to the Master's way and take on the attitude Paul expressed when he said that for him, "to live is Christ." What you and others seem to be refering to as head belief lays the foundation for faith to be built upon and is necessary for faith to develop into the strong structure one would have it to be.

Faith/trust is always based on what one believes in their head. Take away head belief and the building of faith will begin to crumble. Faith can oftentimes be built on a four foundation (foundation = head belief). A person can get on drugs and then be led to believe they can fly. This belief can prompt them to take a leap of faith and jump out of a window. A person could believe that Jesus is not the Christ, (like Saul did), and in good conscience based on their beliefs and the faith it prompts decide to persecute Christians to honor God.

All that to say that we should take responsibility to do all we can to insure that our 'head beliefs' are sound for we allow them to become the foundation of faith that causes us to act.

TOT, God Himself has promised that these promises are YES and AMEN - and so you can be assured that when you begin to apply the principal of speaking in faith that you will see the promised manifestation of God's power in your life!

WHich promises are you specifically speaking of Edward?

 

[Edward]

Please clarify what you mean by faith Edward?

Trust. It's in my posts from this morning. Sounds like you didn't read them.

Faith/trust is always based on what one believes in their head.

I agree with much of what you said except that. It misses the mark a little and must be where many get confused. Even though head knowledge germinates faith sort of...remember that we...live for the spirit and not for the flesh. You must use your head and read, but then live for the spirit who will bring dynamic manifestation of the power of God into you and change your head beliefs into faith and revelation of the heart. Faith is more purposing of the heart than belief in the head. When you rely on your head your leaning to your own understanding and not allowing the Holy Spirit to do His work within you. (why do you trust your wife? Because she says she don't cheat? lol. Or because you love her and can feel within that she does not cheat? Hmm.)

Then you'll say...Prove it!! (LOL) , and how can we? Can I show you the Holy Spirit in me? Can I speak for Him? This is all a very personal thing between a man and the Holy Spirit. Ask the Holy Spirit to prove it. ;)

I speak of all the promises of God. Some are posted above.

 

[Guest]

And what does that mean Urk? What is the salvation YOU SPEAK of and when is it fully received? Evidence please.

The salvation I speak of is of the Living God. It's received when we believe and confess and accept Jesus into our hearts. The only way to God the Father who is living is through Jesus Christ who is living in heaven right now. When you accept God's son, God the Father sends down his Holy Spirit as a gift to you, to dwell inside of you; the Holy Spirit that is living in you. The evidence is seen through our testimonies and our daily Christian faith walk with the Lord.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Faith is more purposing of the heart than belief in the head. When you rely on your head your leaning to your own understanding and not allowing the Holy Spirit to do His work within you. (why do you trust your wife? Because she says she don't cheat? lol. Or because you love her and can feel within that she does not cheat? Hmm.)

The beliefs of one's head along with one's personal desires leads to the purposing of the heart and the purposing of the heart leads to action. Faith is synonomous with trust and is oftentimes used in place of faithfulness which involves one acting out/doing what their faith calls them to do/not do.
In the example about me trusting my wife I will say that I have faith in her being a good wife for a number a of solid tangible reasons and because in my heart, I want her being a good wife to be true and real. This desire, along with the charactor traits she's displayed over the years has led me to place my trust in her and have faith that she is faithful. Those things are the foundation for my faith in her.

Then you'll say...Prove it!! (LOL) , and how can we? Can I show you the Holy Spirit in me? Can I speak for Him? This is all a very personal thing between a man and the Holy Spirit. Ask the Holy Spirit to prove it. ;)

I speak of all the promises of God. Some are posted above.

The proof, or lack thereof is the problem Ed. I don't say that to be difficult, I ask that because it's necessary if we are to know what's right. Do we not want to KNOW THE TRUTH?
As far as being able to show the HS in oneself, we have Biblical examples of it being demonstrated. According to the scriptures, the apostles, the Corinthians, Stephen, Cornelius, and others were able to demonstrate the Spirit in them. It can even be argued that the Spirit was not even promised to us post 1st century people in our lifetimes and therefore anyone who makes the claim today is immediately suspect as a person who is either lying or delusional as it relates to them having the HS. http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=33391&p=496535&viewfull=1#post496535 Unlike the Apostle's day, todays believers that claim to be guided by the HS exhibit no proofs backing their claims. The claims are PURELY SUBJECTIVE and based on their beliefs related to the HS gleaned from their studies (or lack thereof), their religious tradition, etc.

 

[Edward]

The beliefs of one's head along with one's personal desires leads to the purposing of the heart and the purposing of the heart leads to action.

Sounds great on paper, but I don't think I can agree with this. I have went against my mind before, against all logic and reason...trusted in the Lord...and there He was. Prayer itself goes against reason and logic. It just faith. Nothing to go on. The substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things unseen.

Why, only a raving lunatic would pray to an invisible God that there is no proof of! Geez, what's come into people. The Living God! He's there and only wants us to have faith in Him. Blessed are those who have not seen yet believed. There's plenty of testimony from people from people about God being real and revealing Himself on a personal level. There's no concrete proof for a reason my friend. (I have concrete proof within my heart.) It's all about having faith. God wont let it be shown in such a way that we can take it to Princeton and have it tested though, for thou shalt not put thy God to the test.

todays believers that claim to be guided by the HS exhibit no proofs backing their claims. The claims are PURELY SUBJECTIVE and based on their beliefs related to the HS gleaned from their studies (or lack thereof), their religious tradition, etc.

You have this incorrect, for I have been shown it to be otherwise. I'm not discounting study, only in such context as it seems to be presented. My greatest proof can only be my testimony of the Living God. Take it or leave it. Others speak the same. Are we all mad? ;)

 

[Guest]

God wont let it be shown in such a way that we can take it to Princeton and have it tested though, for thou shalt not put thy God to the test.

if you do take it there, just don't blow up the kitchen.

View attachment 3228

 

[Edward]

if you do take it there, just don't blow up the kitchen.

LOL! If God could be proven in a laboratory, the Military would try to weaponize Him! Seriously though it would remove faith and the need to place our trust in Him. The Lord performed a miracle for me just yesterday in my absence from the board. A pretty big one too, for me. Not anything I could share on the board though because it's all subjective *cough cough*. No proof at all. The Lord is great and powerful and will be there for those who have faith in Him! I give testimony that He did do a miracle for me though, and has Never let me down

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Sounds great on paper, but I don't think I can agree with this. I have went against my mind before, against all logic and reason...trusted in the Lord...and there He was. Prayer itself goes against reason and logic. It just faith. Nothing to go on.

Going against logic and acting against what one hopes for and believes in are oftentimes not one and the same. As you said, prayer is no the most logical undertaking, but it's done because people BELIEVE there is a God who hears them, cares for them, and will answer them. The belief in God provides the foundation for all acts of faith including prayer. So again, the beliefs of one's head along with one's personal desires (the hope in their heart) leads to the purposing of the heart and the purposing of the heart leads to action.

Geez, what's come into people. The Living God! He's there and only wants us to have faith in Him.

Is that really so Ed? Or do many people merely THINK and BELIEVE this to be so? Many people believe there is a God that cares for them and by their actions their faith in the God they believe in is displayed. None of that confirms that the faith they have is correctly placed, it just confirms that their faith is real. And faith in and of itself is not a virtue unless placed upon a true and virtuous foundation.

It's all about having faith. God wont let it be shown in such a way that we can take it to Princeton and have it tested though, for thou shalt not put thy God to the test.

Doesn't Malachi 3:10 have God asking to be tested? As it relates to the testing/prove I'm asking for, it's not God I'm wanting to put to the test, instead it's those who claim that THEY HAVE God's Spirit in them.

My greatest proof can only be my testimony of the Living God. Take it or leave it. Others speak the same. Are we all mad?

Mad, most likely not, but misled or deluded, perhaps (and I say this looking into the mirror). As far as one's testimony goes I respect the fact that we each are entitled to it, but whether I accept yours or you accept mines should be based upon whether or not is 'adds up' and can stand under strutiny. Being able to test ones testimony is in my opinion a good that that allows people to know whether or not they SHOULD take it or leave it.

 

[Edward]

Doesn't Malachi 3:10 have God asking to be tested? As it relates to the testing/prove I'm asking for, it's not God I'm wanting to put to the test, instead it's those who claim that THEY HAVE God's Spirit in them.

Well that's God asking to be tested. That is His prerogative. But we are not to test Him

Luke 4:12
12 Jesus answered, “ It is said: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.

In Malachi 3: 8-12 we find the only exception to this.

8 “Will a mere mortal rob God? Yet you rob me.
“But you ask, ‘How are we robbing you?’
“In tithes and offerings. 9 You are under a curse—your whole nation—because you are robbing me. 10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,†says the Lord Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it. 11 I will prevent pests from devouring your crops, and the vines in your fields will not drop their fruit before it is ripe,†says the Lord Almighty. 12 “Then all the nations will call you blessed, for yours will be a delightful land,†says the Lord Almighty./ (NIV)

So yes, we can in this only way test God, and I have done so and can attest to it's validity and truth. One time after dropping off my tithes (which I couldn't afford, lol) I didn't even get out of the parking lot before my phone rang with more work and money. There are other times too and it's true, it's all returned and more.

Mad, most likely not, but misled or deluded, perhaps (and I say this looking into the mirror). As far as one's testimony goes I respect the fact that we each are entitled to it, but whether I accept yours or you accept mines should be based upon whether or not is 'adds up' and can stand under scrutiny. Being able to test ones testimony is in my opinion a good that that allows people to know whether or not they SHOULD take it or leave it.

I have to admit, I have no idea what your talking about here. Do you believe in God or no? Are you asking me to prove Him to you? I can not. I have many testimonies of miracles and help given me, but I'm not sure it would be a correct thing to do to provide them to you if all you want to do is to test God and are demanding proof. It has been clearly established that this is not a right thing to do, so I would not participate in that. Call me mad if you wish. I know He's real whether you believe it or not. God does not play parlor games though. He seems to get angry easy, merciful though that he is. He has revealed it to me, and He would to you if your heart is in the right place when you ask.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

But we are not to test Him Luke 4:12 12 Jesus answered, “ It is said: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.

Do you base the conclusion that we are not to test the Lord in anything on the verse you quoted? If so, why? In verse in Luke has Jesus quoting Dueteronomy 6:16, which in context reads:

'And when Jehovah your God brings you into the land that He promised to your ancestors AbraHam, IsaAc, and Jacob – that He would give you great and beautiful cities that you won't build, <SUP>11</SUP> houses that are full of all sorts of good things that you won't put there, wells dug in rock that you won't dig, vineyards and olive groves that you won't plant, and where you will eat and be filled – <SUP>12</SUP> you must be careful not to forget Jehovah your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt and out of the house of slavery. <SUP>13</SUP> So, you must fear Jehovah your God and serve only Him! You must stick to Him and swear by His Name.
<SUP>14</SUP> 'Don't follow other gods, such as the gods of the nations around you; <SUP>15</SUP> for, Jehovah your God (who is among you) is a zealous God. Otherwise, Jehovah your God will be very angry with you and [He will] destroy you from the face of the ground.

<SUP>16</SUP> 'You must not test Jehovah your God as you tested Him in the [desert].

Do you recall how the people tested God in the desert? The story is told in Exodus 32 where the people had Aaron make an idol for them. This is what was meant by testing God, not asking that God prove Himself!

Are you asking me to prove Him to you?

I'm not asking this at all. What I'm asking is for people who claim to have God's Holy Spirit "in them" to prove that their claim is in fact true.

 

[Guest]

I'm not asking this at all. What I'm asking is for people who claim to have God's Holy Spirit "in them" to prove that their claim is in fact true.

If you want proof, you're probably going to go insane finding it.

 

[George Muller]

Originally Posted by George Muller


here is the test that Paul would give to all who claim to be Christians; KNOW YE NOT THAT THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELLS WITHIN YOU?



In the Corinthian letter Paul wrote he challenged the Corinthians to start living as if they knew they had the spirit. If you recall, the Corinthians were blessed with many gifts that empowered them to do miraculous things. These miraculous powers given by the spirit apparantly didn't serve to help them in their walk as their behavior was quite worldly.

This conversation had nothing to do with gifts of the Spirit, but that one Knows they are the temple of God and sould treat their bodies as the temple of God. Now many people can claim to be keeping certain degrees of doctrine, mormons, jews, even hindus and muslims have doctrine they obey. But the true test is having the Spirit and walking in the Spirit.

Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 ¶ And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Any doctrine that denies this truth or does not teach this truth is false doctrine and rejection of the gospel.

 

[Edward]

Thank you George. Those are good scriptures to bring forth into the discussion.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

What I'm asking is for people who claim to have God's Holy Spirit "in them" to prove that their claim is in fact true.

Or be honest enough to admit/accept that if could be that the Holy Spirit is not being distributed here on Earth, at this present time.

 

[Edward]

What I'm asking is for people who claim to have God's Holy Spirit "in them" to prove that their claim is in fact true.

Or be honest enough to admit/accept that if could be that the Holy Spirit is not being distributed here on Earth, at this present time.

What do you base that on?

 

[Guest]

Or be honest enough to admit/accept that if could be that the Holy Spirit is not being distributed here on Earth, at this present time.

You have a LOT to learn my friend. John 14:18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. What is your belief in who Jesus Christ is. Do you believe he is God deity?

 

[handy]

Very interesting discussion!!!

I will admit that I haven't read each response in-depth, but I have skimmed over the four pages and have seen a lot of good responses.

I'm going to chime in with this, not directed at any particular response (given I haven't read that closely) but just as a general observation....

The thread title is Faith vs. Doctrine. I did read the OP and see where Edward is coming from and Edward does make some good points...

But, it almost sounds as if we are being challenged to choose faith (trusting in the Lord) over doctrine... which I don't believe is a choice God asks of us.

Rather, I think we should, as Christians be assured that faith and good doctrine go hand in hand in making us approved workers.

I haven't been around a lot lately because I've been spending what little time I have on-line these days over at a forum that is not, by any means a Christian forum. There are Christians there, very sincere Christians who would applaud the OP of this thread (and there are some laudable points to be sure!).

However, being at this non-Christian site in which there are some Christians, but many more Atheists, Pagans, Witches, Agnostics, Muslims, etc. etc. etc.... I have been very alarmed at what some of the Christians share there.

I'm not doubting these Christian ladies their very sincere faith in our Lord. But, I cringe at the doctrines they share.

For instance the insistence that since God is a God of love, He certainly does not have a problem with homosexuality and only a homophobic hater would think He does. This isn't a "faith" issue, it's an ignorance of correct doctrine.

As is the premise of a discussion I partook in the other night... that because God said, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me"... then the Bible must teach that there are indeed other gods... not idols mind you, but actual gods, divine beings that, as Christians we are not to follow. Naturally, if the pagans want to follow those gods, OK...but Christians are not to follow them.

Also taught by some of the well-meaning and very sincere ladies there, there is absolutely no reason why a Christian cannot also be a witch.

Again, I'm not going to say that these women are not Christian...I've read some of their testimonies as to why they call themselves Christian and won't argue at all their sincere faith in the Lord.

But, their ignorance of doctrine, some of it very basic doctrine indeed, is disheartening.

I guess it comes down to salvation...and then our walk for Christ.

So often, we as Christians see salvation as the end goal...whereas, in reality, it's the opening play, the kickoff. After salvation enters in... and it does so via the faith that is well described in the OP... then we are to remember that we are created for good works that we should walk in them, and part of that work is being His ambassadors...

Being an ambassador is a somber and serious occupation for we must accurately represent Him Who sends us. Therefore, it is incumbent upon us to be constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which [we] have been following.

 

[Sparkey]

But, it almost sounds as if we are being challenged to choose faith (trusting in the Lord) over doctrine... which I don't believe is a choice God asks of us.

Thank you, Handy!

The thread title is somewhat off from the heart that the OP is expressing. It does sound like an "either or fallacy," doesn't it? There is a problem with our language when it appears that we are locked into binary or 'black and white' thinking. This may also be called arguments that "exclude the middle" which I think is the actual title that could be used:

NEW TITLE NAME (suggestion): "The ground found between the well-known Faith vs. Doctrine controversy"

I think that your point about care being needed even in the smallest things (like words) is very well made.

 

[Edward]

I think you're exactly right Sparrow, it was a poor choice of words for the title. As you can see, I am not saying to lay doctrine down, but to mesh it with faith and not to let it stand alone, as is often the case. I'll change it tomorrow morning, I have to hit the hay right now!

Good point Handy!

 

[George Muller]

What I'm asking is for people who claim to have God's Holy Spirit "in them" to prove that their claim is in fact true.

Or be honest enough to admit/accept that if could be that the Holy Spirit is not being distributed here on Earth, at this present time.

Well coming from one who does not claim to be a Christian, I guess it might seem that way to some? But the bible is true, not matter who does not believe it. This knowledge of the truth protects the truth that we have.