Faith VS. Doctrine

[Guest]

No worries, carry on.........

 

[George Muller]

One day I woke up and decided not to be a saved christian anymore, lol.

You can be quite the provacator I see. Are you being serious with all of your posts or are you trying to stir the pot with folks?

There was a time, that I was not a Christian, I cant understand why someone who is not a christian would come on a "christian" forum and insult the scriptures and the Holy Spirit? Before faith, the last people I wanted to talk to was christians, but I never felt the need to insult them, I just wanted them to leave me alone and I would leave them alone. This seems very odd to me? Why do you feel you need to come onto a "Christian" forum and attempt to insult the things that are dear to us?

 

[Guest]

Before faith, the last people I wanted to talk to was christians, but I never felt the need to insult them, I just wanted them to leave me alone and I would leave them alone.

Same here. The farther away i was from the church the better.

 

[jeff77]

Truthovertradition. Sometimes it seems that you are saying you believe in God. The same God that we are all talking about but that the Bible's representation of God has major flaws and maybe was translated wrong somewhere along the way. If this is true, then what is your purpose on this site? To witness to us that we have it wrong?

 

[Edward]

Being moved does not the Spirit evidence. It instead is a testament to the power of music that people feel touched, moved, and lifted by song and cadence.

This is not so. This is a contention of yours because you will not receive people's testimony or the truth. You seem unwilling to accept as truth the words which we Christians say.

As for me and music, I was moved so much in church when singing hymns by the Holy Spirit that I was weeping, and yet, the actual genre of the music which carried the lyrics is not my favorite. I'm not putting down spiritual music btw, but I prefer different tempos and beats than traditional hymns are in. Yet it happened to me. I didn't even know the words and was having to read the teleprompter to sing along. When I stopped singing, I stopped weeping. When I began to sing, I began weeping again. If it was the music that was moving me then I would not have stopped weeping at all. So you are are incorrect. What was taking place was the Holy Spirit telling me that the Lord loves us to sing praises to Him!

 

[Edward]

Correction, I do not beleive nor do I see any evidence in the world or in scripture that the Lord's HS is being poured out post 1st century.

John 8:28

28 So Jesus said, When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.

This is why you do not know and cannot perceive the Holy Spirit.

John 8:42-45

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!/

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

I cant understand why someone who is not a christian would come on a "christian" forum and insult the scriptures and the Holy Spirit?

Nor can I Mr. Muller. When I came to this forum, I was a Christian and my purpose was to share and glean more scriptural knowledge with and from the community. Insulting the scriptures and disavowing their God-inspired authenticity was never the objective. In the course of time I came to doubt the scripture's inspiration, but that's my personal understanding and need not be continually voiced or explained as doing so doesn't fall in line with the purpose of this Christian forum.
I still will not allow myself to insult the HS Mr. Muller. If it appears that I have been doing so, I sincerely apologize and need to re-evaluate how I say what I say. My entire contention related to the HS is from a standpoint that used scriptural references as a baseline and assumes them to be the source by which we can speak about the HS and its distribution. So in dealing with the HS I intend to approach the subject from the standpoint that assumes the scriptures are true and mean what they say. In doing so, what I point out is my understanding of what the texts say about the HS and who it is in fact promised to. My contention is that post 1st century believers lack scriptural support for being indwelt by God's HS.

Before faith, the last people I wanted to talk to was christians, ............... Why do you feel you need to come onto a "Christian" forum and attempt to insult the things that are dear to us

I apologize. I guess I never thought about how attacking the beliefs other others would make them feel. My goals have always been to point out what my understanding of truth was based on the Bible and to learn from others where my understanding may be lacking and to adjust accordingly. I now understand that discussing the Bible's inspiration here is inappropriate and I will refrain from discussing that issue. However, I see no harm in discussing what the Bible says in an attempt to help us insure that what we believe is actually in line what what is written. That is one of the purposes of such forums.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

28 So Jesus said, When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. This is why you do not know and cannot perceive the Holy Spirit.

Huh? What does the text you quoted have to do with the topic at hand? In the scriptural context of John 8 Jesus is talking to the Jewish leaders that He knows wants to kill Him. THIS IS JESUS TALKING, not you, I, and anyone but the Son of God. He could say those things to those who disbelieved Him because He was JESUS and HE had lived among them, performed miracles to validate His claims, and knew that He would be raised from the dead! His words carry A LOT more weight than the words of those that claim to be filled with God's HS yet have have little to no scriptural backing to make such a claim. Without scriptural backing, asking for evidence is very reasonable.

This is a contention of yours because you will not receive people's testimony or the truth. You seem unwilling to accept as truth the words which we Christians say.

It depends on what is said and how much scriptural validation the claims have behind them. A person's testimony does not the truth make. If the Bible is the standard for truth and one's testimony doesn't mesh with the standard, than questioning the testimony in well within reason.

 

[Edward]

Huh? What does the text you quoted have to do with the topic at hand? In the scriptural context of John 8 Jesus is talking to the Jewish leaders that He knows wants to kill Him. THIS IS JESUS TALKING, not you, I, and anyone but the Son of God.

Agreed. It has everything to do with it though. My point is that this is how it works. When you lift up the Son of Man (Jesus) in speech and your heart...it is then that the Holy Spirit will begin to reveal things to you. You do not do this. You keep trying to prove these things false and so understanding is not being given you. ;)

A person's testimony does not the truth make.

True that, BUT! when more than one person testifies to the same thing, it brings truth to the table and validation. Two people bearing the same testimony validates each other. You have had more than two different people testifying of the same things here and still refuse to consider this and to denounce them (us). Additional witnesses bring truth and credence. You could argue that two people are conspiring together and lying, but you have been given more than that even. Yet, you will not even reasonably consider that this being so could perhaps indicate that hmm, perhaps there is something to what they say? Oh ye hard hearted one!~

John 8:17

17 In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is true./ (NIV)

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

My point is that this is how it works. When you lift up the Son of Man (Jesus) in speech and your heart...it is then that the Holy Spirit will begin to reveal things to you. You do not do this. You keep trying to prove these things false and so understanding is not being given you.

And what scriptural support do you base your above point about how it works on? It's my contention that your point is flawed and not sound because it is not based on the scriptures but rather on your feelings. The scripture you posted doesn't even say that "when you lift up the Son of Man (Jesus) in speech and your heart...it is then that the Holy Spirit will begin to reveal things to you," yet you use this text as if it says something it does not. The "lifting up" referred to in the text was NOT them lifting up Jesus' name in a Godly manner, but rather them wanting to lift Him up on a pole/cross to murder Him. HUGE DIFFERENCE Ed, huge difference.

It seems that you are elevatting your 'spiritual understanding' above what the scriptures actually say and then you accuse me of not being able to get why that course of action is correct because I never lifted Jesus up as Lord of my life in my heart. You further seem to insinuate that if I were to do so that I would see things as you do. I say your assumption that I or anyone else that would strive to make Jesus Lord of their lives would believe that "thats how it works" is a false assumption as there are many, many devout believers and commit themselves to the scriptures that have not been led down that path of belief.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

when more than one person testifies to the same thing, it brings truth to the table and validation. Two people bearing the same testimony validates each other. You have had more than two different people testifying of the same things here and still refuse to consider this and to denounce them

Multiple sources does add credibility. No argument. But, multiple sources in agreeance does not confirm TRUTH. Shouldn't what's taught in the scriptures be the standard by which the truth of personal testimony be measured? There was a time when I would have made the case that I too was filled with the spirit. I was able to tell people when, where, and how I "knew" it to be so. I could do so in full conviction because I believed in my heart that all Christians were given the Holy Spirit and that it could be increased by way of prayer, so I prayed a lot and actually felt as though my prayers were answered. As I started to study the HS and what the Bible actually says about the HS, I was forced to bring what I felt to the examination table of the scriptures and then I had to decide if I'd lean on the scriptures or my hold to my own very real feelings and understanding.

 

[Edward]

The "lifting up" referred to in the text was NOT them lifting up Jesus' name in a Godly manner, but rather them wanting to lift Him up on a pole/cross to murder Him. HUGE DIFFERENCE Ed, huge difference.

Oh, he is not talking about being crucified.

And what scriptural support do you base your above point about how it works on?

1 Corinthians 2: 6-16

6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written:

“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceivedâ€â€”
the things God has prepared for those who love him—
10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.[c] 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,

“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?â€[d]
But we have the mind of Christ./ (NIV)

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Oh, he is not talking about being crucified.

Why do you say that? The texts reads: 27They understood not that he spoke to them of the Father. 28Then said Jesus to them, When you have lifted up the Son of man, then shall you know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father has taught me, I speak these things. 29And he that sent me is with me: the Father has not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

The text falls in line with other texts such as John 12:32-33 where Jesus uses the same language.
And I— if I am lifted up from the earth—will draw all men to me." 33 He said this to indicate the kind of death He would die.

 

[Edward]

Sounds as if you're just trying to derail my whole point, and don't even have a real interest in learning anything about faith, the Holy Spirit, or the ways of God.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

You initally said this:

]"My point is that this is how it works. When you lift up the Son of Man (Jesus) in speech and your heart...it is then that the Holy Spirit will begin to reveal things to you."

[/I]
My response was:

And what scriptural support do you base your above point about how it works on?

Does the text you posted from 1 Corinthians 2 validate your above statement that indicates that when a person lifts up Jesus, then the HS will begin to reveal things to them? I say no, but let's look at the context starting from Chapter 1 and verse 26.

Now, notice this about your calling, brothers: Not many were called who were wise in a fleshly way; not many were called who had power; and not many were called who were [from] important families. <SUP>27</SUP> So, God chose the foolish things of the world to put wise men to shame; He chose the weak things of the world to put the strong to shame; <SUP>28</SUP> and He chose the common things of the world and the things that are looked down on – the things that aren't – in order to make the things that are, worthless. <SUP>29</SUP> This [was done] so that no flesh can boast before God.
<SUP>30</SUP> Therefore, it's because of [God] that you are in the Anointed Jesus. For, he has become God's wisdom to us, as well as His righteousness, His holiness, and our ransom price. <SUP>31</SUP> As it is written: 'Whoever boasts; let him boast in Jehovah.'
<SUP>1</SUP> So, when I came to you brothers, I didn't bring you the mysteries of God with high-sounding words of wisdom. <SUP>2</SUP> For, I decided not to teach you about anything other than Jesus the Anointed, and about how he was hung on a pole. <SUP>3</SUP> I came to you as weak, afraid, and trembling. <SUP>4</SUP> And what I said and preached wasn't done with persuasive wise words, but with [God's] Spirit and power, <SUP>5</SUP> so you wouldn't have faith in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.<SUP>6</SUP> Now, we do talk wisely to those who aren't mature, but not with the wisdom of this age, or like the rulers of this age (who are coming to nothing). <SUP>7</SUP> Rather, we speak God's wisdom as a mystery (hidden wisdom); as things that God had planned before this age for our glory. <SUP>8</SUP> This is wisdom that none of the rulers of this age know of; because, if they knew about it they wouldn't have hung the glorious Lord on a pole. <SUP>9</SUP> But as it is written: 'Eyes haven't seen, ears haven't heard, nor have the hearts of men even thought about all the things that God has prepared for those who love Him.'<SUP>10</SUP> Yet, God (through His Spirit) has revealed this to us, because His Spirit searches everything… including the deep things of God.

Paul is simply saying that God's Spirit has revealed the secrets of God's plan to Paul and that plan is what Paul had been sharing with the Corinthians. The texts says NOTHING about lifting up Jesus in one's heart leading to the HS revealing things to them.

 

[reba]

closed for review and clean up

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