Faith VS. Doctrine

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

What do you base that on?

My studies and understanding of the texts related to the distribution of God's Holy Spirit have led me to conclude that the HS was not promised to but a select generation in the 'Last Days' according to the scriptures. As I have said in previous threads, if God is who we think He is, He can distribute His Spirit whenever He chooses, but if we base who gets the Spirit on scripture alone, we are hard pressed to make the case that its distribution as indicated from scripture applies to our time.

 

[Sparkey]

promised to but a select generation in the 'Last Days'

Care to share? That's not something that I have read. No, nevermind. It's better to stick to topic but I would be interested to read your 'take' on the Promise of God in another thread, should you like to create it.

Cordially,
~Sparrow

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Care to share?

Sure. In a previous thread i stated the following:

After reading 2 Corinthians 5, I had to ask myself this question: How does one know they are "IN" Christ? Verse 5 seems to imply that those who are have been given a sample or deposit of God's Spirit which acts as a seal according to Ephesians 1:13-14 that was given in advance as a token of the inheritance which saints will receive, and which has been reserved for saints, for the glory of his praise. We see that the saints in the NT, especially in Corinthians who were sealed had powers that came along with the portion of God's Spirit that was given to them. Just an observation, but since I don't have those powers and abilities I am led to believe that I do not have the Spirit in me.

Initially that was problematic, but the more I read and the harder I looked, the less inclined I was to believe that the HS was even promised to me and my generation during our lifetimes. In looking at what is said or promised regarding God's HS in the scriptures, we must be careful to not read ourselves into texts that you words like 'you', 'us', etc. Many of the promises/prophecies would appear to be directed at Jesus disciples and their contemporaries as opposed to all believers of all times.
This link goes into more detail: http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=33391&p=511135&viewfull=1#post511135

 

[Guest]

[MENTION=45243]TRUTH over TRADITION[/MENTION] ? Don't you guys wake up every morning and just thank the Lord that we can discern truth through the Holy Spirit, and know who is spreading false doctrine. The irony is in his name. lol.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Don't you guys wake up every morning and just thank the Lord that we can discern truth through the Holy Spirit, and know who is spreading false doctrine.

If it could be s easily known why is there such a lack of concensus among believers relating to MAJOR scriptural issues? What must one do to be saved? What is the purpose of baptism? Is there really an eternal burning Hell? Who is promised a Heavenly inheritance? Is original sin taught in the Bible? Is the Trinity Doctrine true? What's the "one true church?" When are the last days? Is modern Israel prophesied in scripture? Will there be a rapture? Does one have to be baptised in the HS and speak in tongues to be saved? Etc, Etc.

So, if people such as yourself have this discerning power given by the HS of God; why all the dissention amongst a group that all claims to have the same spirit in them?

 

[Guest]

Don't you guys wake up every morning and just thank the Lord that we can discern truth through the Holy Spirit, and know who is spreading false doctrine.

If it could be s easily known why is there such a lack of concensus among believers relating to MAJOR scriptural issues? What must one do to be saved? What is the purpose of baptism? Is there really an eternal burning Hell? Who is promised a Heavenly inheritance? Is original sin taught in the Bible? Is the Trinity Doctrine true? What's the "one true church?" When are the last days? Is modern Israel prophesied in scripture? Will there be a rapture? Does one have to be baptised in the HS and speak in tongues to be saved? Etc, Etc.

So, if people such as yourself have this discerning power given by the HS of God; why all the dissention amongst a group that all claims to have the same spirit in them?

Isaiah 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

 

[farouk]

We need to trust the Word itself over church tradition.

(I think is a basic point that can be made.)

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Isaiah 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

But being that neither you nor me is God, how is this text relevant to our discussion? Now let me ask you again; if people such as yourself have the discerning power given by the HS of God; why all the dissention amongst a group that all claims to have the same spirit in them?

My bet is this: YOUR CLAIM IS BOGUS.

 

[Guest]

But being that neither you nor me is God, how is this text relevant to our discussion?

Because you don't think sinners are being saved through the Holy Spirit in the 21st century. lol. : That tells me a lot about your preaching.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Because you don't think sinners are being saved through the Holy Spirit in the 21st century. lol. That tells me a lot about your preaching.

Correction, I do not beleive nor do I see any evidence in the world or in scripture that the Lord's HS is being poured out post 1st century.

 

[Guest]

Because you don't think sinners are being saved through the Holy Spirit in the 21st century. lol. That tells me a lot about your preaching.

Correction, I do not beleive nor do I see any evidence in the world or in scripture that the Lord's HS is being poured out post 1st century.

What about worship music and the artists and the teachers and preachers all around the world?? That's ashame, because when I hear any kind of worship music that is anointed, it stirs up the HS inside of me. You're missing out on a lot, which begs the questions. What is your belief in who Jesus Christ is, and do you believe he is God deity? I believe you don't see evidence because you yourself are not saved yet?

 

[George Muller]

Because you don't think sinners are being saved through the Holy Spirit in the 21st century. lol. That tells me a lot about your preaching.

Correction, I do not beleive nor do I see any evidence in the world or in scripture that the Lord's HS is being poured out post 1st century.

I am confused? are you a "Christian"? If you are not? Of course you will not or can not "see" any evidence of the Holy Spirit. If you refuse to accept Christ, of course you refuse to believe in His Sprit.

 

[Edward]

But being that neither you nor me is God, how is this text relevant to our discussion? Now let me ask you again; if people such as yourself have the discerning power given by the HS of God; why all the dissention amongst a group that all claims to have the same spirit in them?

My bet is this: YOUR CLAIM IS BOGUS.

John 16:13
13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come./ (NIV)

2 Corinthians 4:3-4
3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God./ (NIV)

urk

Isaiah 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts./...this is very relevant! ..

What about worship music and the artists and the teachers and preachers all around the world?? That's a shame, because when I hear any kind of worship music that is anointed, it stirs up the HS inside of me.....This is soo very true! I attest to this in a big way!

George Muller

I am confused? are you a "Christian"? If you are not? Of course you will not or can not "see" any evidence of the Holy Spirit. If you refuse to accept Christ, of course you refuse to believe in His Spirit.

Exactly.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

What about worship music and the artists and the teachers and preachers all around the world?? That's ashame, because when I hear any kind of worship music that is anointed, it stirs up the HS inside of me. You're missing out on a lot, which begs the questions. What is your belief in who Jesus Christ is, and do you believe he is God deity? I believe you don't see evidence because you yourself are not saved yet?

What about the musicians and the preachers? How is their work evidence of God's HS in any way? For every musician that pour out their heart in song to the Lord, there are 100 other 'secular' musicians that put their heart into their music and that music moves its intended audience as well. Being moved does not the Spirit evidence. It instead is a testament to the power of music that people feel touched, moved, and lifted by song and cadence. And as far as preacher go, please don't get me started. For every preacher out their claiming to show people the Lord's way, there is another preacher out there claiming to be filled with the same spirit that will say the other preacher is spreading false doctrine. When God's Spirit was actually at work in the Bible days we didn't see such subjectivity nor was there so much dissent among the spirit filled that helped oversee the Lord's flock.

EDITED
Even during my many 'saved' years I saw little evidence that the HS of God was at work in man today. Was I moved by song, YES (still am BTW), did preaching motivate and stir me, YEP, a good message that's pertinent has a way of affecting a man. But that was not evidence of the spirit being at work today. The evidences the saints of the 1st century displayed of being filled with God's spirit simply are rare or unseen at all today.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come./ (NIV)

We're gonna have to go to the way back machine to clear the fog on this one Ed. There's a number of threads that discuss this topic in some depth. Essentially, I would contend that the person that sees this text as being applicable to today has lifted it from its greater context. John 13-17 is virtually entirely directed at Jesus' 12 exclusively. Reading ourselves into it causes confusion and lays a foundation for which false doctrine can grow.

 

[Sparkey]

There's a number of threads that discuss this topic in some depth. Essentially, I would contend that the person that sees this text as being applicable to today has lifted it from its greater context.

And I would contend that this is your contention. That being the case, do you have proof? Pardon me, I know that is a subject for a different thread. One that I would enjoy, I'm sure. Let us agree to not try to sway threads away from their original purpose.

 

[reba]

TRUTH over TRADITION

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[Guest]

What about worship music and the artists and the teachers and preachers all around the world?? That's ashame, because when I hear any kind of worship music that is anointed, it stirs up the HS inside of me. You're missing out on a lot, which begs the questions. What is your belief in who Jesus Christ is, and do you believe he is God deity? I believe you don't see evidence because you yourself are not saved yet?

What about the musicians and the preachers? How is their work evidence of God's HS in any way? For every musician that pour out their heart in song to the Lord, there are 100 other 'secular' musicians that put their heart into their music and that music moves its intended audience as well. Being moved does not the Spirit evidence. It instead is a testament to the power of music that people feel touched, moved, and lifted by song and cadence. And as far as preacher go, please don't get me started. For every preacher out their claiming to show people the Lord's way, there is another preacher out there claiming to be filled with the same spirit that will say the other preacher is spreading false doctrine. When God's Spirit was actually at work in the Bible days we didn't see such subjectivity nor was there so much dissent among the spirit filled that helped oversee the Lord's flock.

EDITED
Even during my many 'saved' years I saw little evidence that the HS of God was at work in man today. Was I moved by song, YES (still am BTW), did preaching motivate and stir me, YEP, a good message that's pertinent has a way of affecting a man. But that was not evidence of the spirit being at work today. The evidences the saints of the 1st century displayed of being filled with God's spirit simply are rare or unseen at all today.

Three questions: 1. Are you an atheist? 2. What is your belief in who Jesus Christ is? 3. Do you believe Jesus Christ is God deity?

 

[Guest]

One day I woke up and decided not to be a saved christian anymore, lol. :toofunny

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

One day I woke up and decided not to be a saved christian anymore, lol.

You can be quite the provacator I see. Are you being serious with all of your posts or are you trying to stir the pot with folks?