"Faith without works is dead".............lets get the scripture right.

[Kidron]

We can't claim to be saved and then try to clean up our own acts so we "appear" more Christian. We are to cease from our own works to be under grace...not put on a show for the flesh. There is an increasing danger in our time of bad doctrine to be a Pharisee and make it look good. This is the opposite of the way in Christ.

Rather when we are under grace we act from there and have no need to fill any criteria or law. We are human BEINGS not human DOINGS. So the fruit of the Spirit comes from the Spirit not from us. It is not a show...it is real.

What you have said sounds very spiritual and im certain thats why you said it,.......however, the fact is, after you are saved you have a job to do.
You are to represent your Lord by doing the work that is involved in personal ministry.
If you dont, you are saved but useless., born again but a waste of space, redeemed but a disaster.

And remember now, we dont work after we are saved to be saved, but rather we labor as good Christian soldiers in the work of the ministry BECAUSE WE ARE SAVED, ..or as James says, ..."i'll show you my salvation/my FAITH by my works, by my deeds, by my labor".

So, Adullam, if you have no "works" you are not a very good disciple of Christ.
Be sure to understand that fact and adjust your personal life accordingly.





K

 

[Kidron]

Exactly..... faith without works is simply a dead faith. Conversely, works do not = faith.

According to James, your works prove you are in the faith,...however your works do not prove you are saved..
Be certain you understand that point.

If you are saved then you have become a disciple of Christ by standing.
So, you are to act accordingly, which is to say, you are to present your body to your Faith in God as a living sacrifice, and the way you do that, is to get busy in the will of God and this means to get busy according to the works that a Christian should always be doing.

Here is the short list....

Bible reading and study and memorization.
Witnessing.
Stopping all known sin in your life.
Being active in your local church.



K

 

[Kidron]

I like the spirit of this, but there is an oxymoron in your conclusion. Something that crosses something out. Do you see it?

The reason you would "see"an oxymoron in my statement would be if you are guilty of believing that salvation is created and sustained by discipleship.
Such is your mind, and that is why you see what isnt there regarding what i explained.




K

 

[Stan53]

Some of you have the typical legalistic theology that is firmly created by not being able to distinguish between salvation and discipleship.
You are combining them into your single idea of salvation, and that is your extreme error.
Now understand.........."Salvation"...."Discipleship".............two different words and two completely different definitions.

Now Let me explain James and that one verse that just flips out so many believers (and others)..

Faith without works is Dead.".

what does this really mean?

It really means that AFTER you are saved, if you do nothing for God, if you dont mature as a Christian,... if you just get saved and then return back to your old lifestyle, then you have no works, no deeds, NOTHING to prove you are saved...........but it does not mean you are lost.
Thats the meaning.
In essence, and according to James......your faith, even tho it has saved you, has wilted and become hybernated and "dead"..
Understand?
Do you understand that if you dont use something you lose it?
Try not lifting anything with your right arm for one year and watch your arm turn into a lifeless useless piece of flesh that just dangles "without WORKS" by your side.
Yet if you do WORK with it all the time, what happens?
See it?
See the verse?
Are you LOOKING?
Faith is your ARM, and using it is WORKS.
Now get that...

Now, get this.
Salvation, is........"God on a cross saving you for FREE".

Discipleship is........."what you do for GOD AFTER you are saved and not to try to earn or keep your salvation".

see the difference?
Understand?

When you or legalistic people like you read....."faith without works is dead",... you twist it in your skulls to be interpreted as....."i can only >be saved< if i do stuff, keep the law, live holy, and confess every sin like a maniac".
But the verse is not talking about being saved, its telling you to DO SOMETHING NOW THAT YOU ARE SAVED OTHER THEN SNORE IN CHURCH AND PLAY ONLINE ALL DAY.
Its talking about DISCIPLESHIP...............DISCIPLESHIP............DISCIPLESHIP.....>After you are SAVED<..
The verse is telling you that after you are saved, if you dont get in the Holy game and stop your sinning, and live for the Lord, then you will backslide and soon forget what your faith has recreated you to be, and then your faith is useless, IT DEAD..... other then it saved you.
Your faith has become DEAD in the sense that it hasen't any power, any authority, or life.
Listen, what James is saying is...."""Let me show you by my good works that my faith is ALIVE""".
Let my good works, my Christian deeds, prove to all that im not some backslid nothing, but rather my works prove im IN THE GAME, im WALKING THE WALK......im a good disciple......and hes not doing it to be saved.....but because he IS saved...

Legalistic people like you confuse this verse to teach that James is saying you do works to BE SAVED, but that is 100% error, as what he is saying is....BECAUSE I AM SAVED, LOOK AT WHAT I DO FOR THE LORD...........SEE IT...............SEE MY WORKS........LOOK, LOOK........LOOK and do the SAME THING !!

and that, is DISCIPLESHIP ..

So dont confuse salvation with discipleship., and dont continue to use James or Hebrews to try to confuse yourself.

Now, Let me ask you a few questions....
.
Do you pray and meditate on the Lord all day long, everyday?
Have you won more then 10 people to Christ since you were saved?
Have you stopped watching dirty cable TV and R-rated movies yet?
Do you read your bible at least 2 x a day for at least 30 minutes?
Do you witness to people on the street or on the job or to your neighbors YET????
If not, your faith is pretty much .....dead....dead .....dead...according to JAMES.....as you are doing nothing with it.
nothing !!
But you are still Saved.......absolutely, as you cant be unborn again.<

That is what James is telling you in his letter.
Are you listening?
Time to get the scripture right, dont you think?
Time to get BUSY, or else as James says, your "faith is dead" !!.



K

Good to see when people get it. Faith is ONLY required for Salvation. Faith plus works of faith, is required to GROW with God. It means fruit is being produced. What did Jesus do when He came across the fig tree without fruit?

 

[Kidron]

The error is that we are to do something for God. Talk about an appeal to the flesh. The whole premise is wrong...but it does tickle the ears don't it! ;)

You actually admit that you believe that we are to do nothing for God and Christ after we are born again and begin our life in Christ?
Adullam, you just stated this publicly.
Wow, you are one quality minor theologian with a backwards twist aren't ya.
I cant even imagine what a church full of people would be like who believe what you just said.
Talk about dead in the pews, talk about "Gods frozen chosen".
Awful...


K

 

[Kidron]

You effectively assume the very thing you should be making a case for, namely that one tease apart "salvation" and "discipleship".

I do not believe you can, and may argue for that in a later post. But your argument is really just a statement of your position.

Drew,

James was referring to his work in the ministry as proof he was in the faith.
Many Christians today, believe this verse is suggesting that "Works to be saved" is the meaning of James's scripture.
My Thread simply explains why this misunderstanding of the verse occurs.




K

 

[Stan53]

We can't claim to be saved and then try to clean up our own acts so we "appear" more Christian. We are to cease from our own works to be under grace...not put on a show for the flesh. There is an increasing danger in our time of bad doctrine to be a Pharisee and make it look good. This is the opposite of the way in Christ.

Rather when we are under grace we act from there and have no need to fill any criteria or law. We are human BEINGS not human DOINGS. So the fruit of the Spirit comes from the Spirit not from us. It is not a show...it is real.

That means you believe the Holy Spirit controls us like a puppet. NOT SO.
Just as we utilized our free will at the time of our salvation, we continue to use it ALL our life as we walk with Christ.
Jesus said, Luke 9:23, Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me.
What is our cross? It is our human carnal nature. We are stuck with it. It doesn't disappear when we get saved. God sees the blood, not our carnality. Paul recognized this and dealt with that very issue in Romans 7:7-25

 

[Danus]

The reason you would "see"an oxymoron in my statement would be if you are guilty of believing that salvation is created and sustained by discipleship.
Such is your mind, and that is why you see what isnt there regarding what i explained.




K

Nope, it's your logic and the way you have worded your OP. trying to help you without being a jerk about it.

Several people have pointed it out and they all agree that faith without works is dead and all. Go back and re-read what you wrote, and consider it in it's entirety.

Either you miss wrote it, or you don't know what your actually saying. Which is it?


I'll give you a clue

.........................

It really means that AFTER you are saved, if you do nothing for God, if you dont mature as a Christian,... if you just get saved and then return back to your old lifestyle, then you have no works, no deeds, NOTHING to prove you are saved...........but it does not mean you are lost.
Thats the meaning.
In essence, and according to James......your faith, even tho it has saved you, has wilted and become hybernated and "dead"..
Understand?
Do you understand that if you dont use something you lose it?
Try not lifting anything with your right arm for one year and watch your arm turn into a lifeless useless piece of flesh that just dangles "without WORKS" by your side.
Yet if you do WORK with it all the time, what happens?
When you or legalistic people like you read....."faith without works is dead",... you twist it in your skulls to be interpreted as....."i can only >be saved< if i do stuff, keep the law, live holy, and confess every sin like a maniac".
But the verse is not talking about being saved, its telling you to DO SOMETHING NOW THAT YOU ARE SAVED OTHER THEN SNORE IN CHURCH AND PLAY ONLINE ALL DAY.
Its talking about DISCIPLESHIP...............DISCIPLESHIP............DISCIPLESHIP.....>After you are SAVED<..
The verse is telling you that after you are saved, if you dont get in the Holy game and stop your sinning, ............

All of your OP is a logical loop, but this part is probably the strongest. Your speaking against people working for their salvation then your advocating works as part of a self effort OF salvation, without realizing that salvation simply = work.

Good works are a byproduct of salvation. It's not conscious effort, it's just want is. The saved do not look for any proof of what they already know and have. If you can't force on salvation through work, then you can't forcefully work anything after your saved since God is the one who does anything in this regard.

Telling people, "You must make an effort to grow in the Lord and mature" places you back to doing anything to be saved in the first place. If you are saved, and can not work for it, then God does it, and if God dose it then God grows it, and if God grows it then God finishes it. Otherwise preach infused righteousness.

Faith without works is dead, and a dead faith is not a living faith. If faith is a gift from God then you can't earn it, don't deserve it, and can't work for it! If you can't do any of that then it's maintenance is also not something YOU do, earn, work at ect....it effects YOU, you don't effect IT.

 

[Drew]

I've never understood the "either/or" stance on the subject of faith and works when the only way to reconcile the different passages of scripture about this subject, is to take a "both/and" approach.

I am not sure exactly what you mean, but I sense that I agree with you.

I suggest the scriptures are clear:

1. Final salvation - the verdict at the final judgement - is based on good works. This is absolutely, unambiguously, and clearly established in Romans 2:6-7: <SUP> </SUP>God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€<SUP class=footnote value='[a]'>[a]</SUP> <SUP class=crossreference value='(J)'></SUP><SUP class=versenum>7 </SUP>To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor <SUP class=crossreference value='(K)'></SUP>and immortality, <SUP class=crossreference value='(L)'></SUP>he will give eternal life. Watch what people do with this text!! They will either ignore it, or come up with wildly implausible explanations as to why Paul simply does not mean what he says.

2. In many other places, we are told that faith is fully sufficient for salvation - if you have faith, you most certainly will be saved.

Many evangelicals - most in fact (I think) - effectively refuse to deal with Paul's statement connecting good works to final salvation.

But, I suggest, there is indeed a solution that takes all the relevant texts seriously: Through faith alone, the Holy Spirit is given to the believer; That Spirit functions as the "engine" which produces transformation that leads to good works. Thus, while "good works" are indeed the criterion for final salvation, those works are guaranteed to be present in the life of the Spirit-filled person. Thus, faith alone does lead to final salvation.

Again: Watch what people will do with Romans 2:6-7!!!

 

[Drew]

Drew,

James was referring to his work in the ministry as proof he was in the faith.

You are begging the question again - you cannot simply assume this; You need to make an actual case for it.

 

[Danus]

That means you believe the Holy Spirit controls us like a puppet. NOT SO.
Just as we utilized our free will at the time of our salvation, we continue to use it ALL our life as we walk with Christ.
Jesus said, Luke 9:23, Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me.
What is our cross? It is our human carnal nature. We are stuck with it. It doesn't disappear when we get saved. God sees the blood, not our carnality. Paul recognized this and dealt with that very issue in Romans 7:7-25

I'm sure he'll answer, but he's not saying we are robots or controlled like puppets.

Our free will is the problem. Our free will is the carnal nature you speak of and our free will only makes decisions in it's nature, which is not righteous, and that being the case as we are told, then our fee will does not save us, or decide for us to be saved. It yields itself to God, and God does the saving.

But, your correct in that we still have that free will nature after we are saved and we either yield to our free will, or we yield to Gods will. If we are not in God's will, then we are in our will (freely) We are either effected by Gods will on us, or we are not. It may seem like a decision we make freely. We'd like to think that. But if we do then we should question how we are saved.

If we make the decision to save ourselves then how are we "saved". If our will has any bearing on our salvation then it will also come in to play fully on our judgment, and if God is not doing something for us that we can simply do ourselves, how then is he saving us? Opening the door to allow us the invite if we so choose? How is that saving someone? .

The question is, what is it that yields our free will to God if our free will can not do anything righteous? Answer FAITH. The faith we have in God is from God and it's that faith, that spirit of God in us that give us the power to yield our will to His will. Not a choice, but a giving over.

 

[Elijah674]

I'm sure he'll answer, but he's not saying we are robots or controlled like puppets.

Our free will is the problem. Our free will is the carnal nature you speak of and our free will only makes decisions in it's nature, which is not righteous, and that being the case as we are told, then our fee will does not save us, or decide for us to be saved. It yields itself to God, and God does the saving.

But, your correct in that we still have that free will nature after we are saved and we either yield to our free will, or we yield to Gods will. If we are not in God's will, then we are in our will (freely) We are either effected by Gods will on us, or we are not. It may seem like a decision we make freely. We'd like to think that. But if we do then we should question how we are saved.

If we make the decision to save ourselves then how are we "saved". If our will has any bearing on our salvation then it will also come in to play fully on our judgment, and if God is not doing something for us that we can simply do ourselves, how then is he saving us? Opening the door to allow us the invite if we so choose? How is that saving someone? .

The question is, what is it that yields our free will to God if our free will can not do anything righteous? Answer FAITH. The faith we have in God is from God and it's that faith, that spirit of God in us that give us the power to yield our will to His will. Not a choice, but a giving over.

Gen. 6:3 has Noah as Peter call's him, the preacher of Rightousness & as we also read that the Holy Spirit was STRIVING with Noah's preaching for 120 years.

Surely we find 'yielding' to the hearing, + the Striving was the reason!

--Elijah

 

[Drew]

I see someone has invoked Romans 7. I believe, and am prepared to argue in some detail, that Romans 7 is describing a non-Christian Jew. If this is correct, it is an exegetical error to apply it to the experience of the believer.

 

[Stan53]

I'm sure he'll answer, but he's not saying we are robots or controlled like puppets.
Our free will is the problem. Our free will is the carnal nature you speak of and our free will only makes decisions in it's nature, which is not righteous, and that being the case as we are told, then our fee will does not save us, or decide for us to be saved. It yields itself to God, and God does the saving.

Well it came across that way to me. Our carnal nature and free will are separate, NOT the same. Of course our free will does not save us, Jesus does, as we yield our free will and believe and accept his salvation, by our free will. What God wants from us is to ALWAYS yield our free will to Him, and do as He directs. Paul confirms this in Phil 2:12-13; 

So then, my dear friends, just as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence but even more now in my absence, continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, <sup class="versenum">13 </sup>for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work on behalf of his good pleasure. <sup class="versenum">14 </sup>
​




But, your correct in that we still have that free will nature after we are saved and we either yield to our free will, or we yield to Gods will. If we are not in God's will, then we are in our will (freely) We are either effected by Gods will on us, or we are not. It may seem like a decision we make freely. We'd like to think that. But if we do then we should question how we are saved.

Yeh that would be going off topic. This thread is NOT about predestination or election.

If we make the decision to save ourselves then how are we "saved". If our will has any bearing on our salvation then it will also come in to play fully on our judgment, and if God is not doing something for us that we can simply do ourselves, how then is he saving us? Opening the door to allow us the invite if we so choose? How is that saving someone? .

Salvation has already been provided by the shedding of Jesus' redemptive blood.
That's what His crusifixtion was all about. The price was paid first, then we have to believe and accept it. God doesn't force it on us. ALL we have to do is accept Him and His sacrifice. That is done by excercising our free will as Paul writes in Romans 10:9-10;

if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,†and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. <sup class="versenum">10 </sup>For with the heart a person believes and is made righteous, and with the mouth he confesses and is saved.
​

The question is, what is it that yields our free will to God if our free will can not do anything righteous? Answer FAITH. The faith we have in God is from God and it's that faith, that spirit of God in us that give us the power to yield our will to His will. Not a choice, but a giving over.

That is exactly correct. Our free will can't do anything righteous, but it can and does submit when it sees the truth of Jesus Christ. Paul wrote in Romans 3:22;

<sup class="versenum">21 </sup>But now, apart from the law (although attested by the law and the prophets) the righteousness of God has been disclosed. <sup class="versenum">22 </sup>It is the righteousness of God available through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. (For there is no distinction, <sup class="versenum">23 </sup>since all have sinned and continue to fall short of the glory of God.)
​

You seem to forget that God draws us to Jesus. He works on our heart. Once we are faced with the ulitmate truth, that's all He does. WE have to decide by our free will, to either ACCEPT the Truth and the Way, or deny Him. It is indeed our choice, if we really believe.

 

[Stan53]

I see someone has invoked Romans 7. I believe, and am prepared to argue in some detail, that Romans 7 is describing a non-Christian Jew. If this is correct, it is an exegetical error to apply it to the experience of the believer.

Paul is addressing the Christians in Rome as found in Romans 1:7;

To all who are in Rome, loved by God and called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

​

The most likely members of this church are mostly Jewish, but Gentiles were also a part of this church. Romans 7 starts with; (for I am speaking to those who know the law), obviously Jewish believers. Then he goes on to explain how Christ in the NC is better than the Mosaic Laws of the OC. It's not error when Paul is the one applying it. It's error to think Paul was writing to Jewish unbelievers.

 

[Danus]

Well it came across that way to me. Our carnal nature and free will are separate, NOT the same. Of course our free will does not save us, Jesus does, as we yield our free will and believe and accept his salvation, by our free will. What God wants from us is to ALWAYS yield our free will to Him, and do as He directs. Paul confirms this in Phil 2:12-13;

That's the Arminius thought on the matter. We sign up willingly for the salvation class and we can drop out any time. Still leaves those who are unable for their own limitation out of the grace I guess. They should have been smarter is all, or lucky enough to have had the will to freely choose then.

A good prayer for those who hold to this view would go like this.

"Lord, I thank thee I am not like those poor presumptuous Calvinists Lord, I was born with a glorious free-will; I was born with power by which I can turn to thee of myself; I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace that I have, they might all have been saved. Lord, I know thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves. Thou givest grace to everybody; some do not improve it, but I do. There are many that will go to hell as much bought with the blood of Christ as I was; they had as much of the Holy Ghost given to them; they had as good a chance, and were as much blessed as I am. It was not thy grace that made us to differ; I know it did a great deal, still I turned the point; I made use of what was given me, and others did not-that is the difference between me and them."


Salvation has already been provided by the shedding of Jesus' redemptive blood.
That's what His crusifixtion was all about. The price was paid first, then we have to believe and accept it. God doesn't force it on us. ALL we have to do is accept Him and His sacrifice. That is done by excercising our free will as Paul writes in Romans 10:9-10;

if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. <sup class="versenum">10 </sup>For with the heart a person believes and is made righteous, and with the mouth he confesses and is saved.
​

That is exactly correct. Our free will can't do anything righteous, but it can and does submit when it sees the truth of Jesus Christ. Paul wrote in Romans 3:22;

<sup class="versenum">21 </sup>But now, apart from the law (although attested by the law and the prophets) the righteousness of God has been disclosed. <sup class="versenum">22 </sup>It is the righteousness of God available through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. (For there is no distinction, <sup class="versenum">23 </sup>since all have sinned and continue to fall short of the glory of God.)
​

You seem to forget that God draws us to Jesus. He works on our heart. Once we are faced with the ulitmate truth, that's all He does. WE have to decide by our free will, to either ACCEPT the Truth and the Way, or deny Him. It is indeed our choice, if we really believe.

In this way you are giving the power to the believer, by his own choice and free will to choose good and evil, to determine his own salvation.

Why would you think God does nto force himself in some way to effect some? He forced himself on may people. If not for Gods hand, there would be no Christianity and no salvation, Man would have no ability to make such a "choice".

 

[Adullam]

I see someone has invoked Romans 7. I believe, and am prepared to argue in some detail, that Romans 7 is describing a non-Christian Jew. If this is correct, it is an exegetical error to apply it to the experience of the believer.

Exactly! Paul is showing the process he went through before coming to the freedom in Christ. It is very telling when Christians use this to describe their own present state!!!!

 

[Stan53]

That's the Arminius thought on the matter. We sign up willingly for the salvation class and we can drop out any time. Still leaves those who are unable for their own limitation out of the grace I guess. They should have been smarter is all, or lucky enough to have had the will to freely choose then.
A good prayer for those who hold to this view would go like this.
"Lord, I thank thee I am not like those poor presumptuous Calvinists Lord, I was born with a glorious free-will; I was born with power by which I can turn to thee of myself; I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace that I have, they might all have been saved. Lord, I know thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves. Thou givest grace to everybody; some do not improve it, but I do. There are many that will go to hell as much bought with the blood of Christ as I was; they had as much of the Holy Ghost given to them; they had as good a chance, and were as much blessed as I am. It was not thy grace that made us to differ; I know it did a great deal, still I turned the point; I made use of what was given me, and others did not-that is the difference between me and them."

I'm NOT Arminian, but as I said, totopic




In this way you are giving the power to the believer, by his own choice and free will to choose good and evil, to determine his own salvation.

Why would you think God does nto force himself in some way to effect some? He forced himself on may people. If not for Gods hand, there would be no Christianity and no salvation, Man would have no ability to make such a "choice".

again Danus totopic

If you want to discuss your Calvinist thoughs, start a thread. I'll be glad to hop on it.

 

[Danus]

[/I]

I'm NOT Arminian, but as I said, totopic









again Danus totopic

If you want to discuss your Calvinist thoughs, start a thread. I'll be glad to hop on it.

It's on topic, but if you don't want to discuss it then don't. Your views expressed are that of the Armenian theology, with a reformed twist, but I could also say John Wesley if you don't care for Arminius.
Take care.

 

[Stan53]

It's on topic, but if you don't want to discuss it then don't. Your views expressed are that of the Armenian theology, with a reformed twist, but I could also say John Wesley if you don't care for Arminius.
Take care.

Like I said...post a thread on it and I'll be more than happy to discuss it.
Meanwhile... totopic please.