"Faith without works is dead".............lets get the scripture right.

[Danus]

Like I said...post a thread on it and I'll be more than happy to discuss it.
Meanwhile... totopic please.

Go ahead and state the topic then, and we'll pick back up from where you are. I'm answering your "please" part, assuming you want to engage this topic. If not then no big deal. I have no motivation for starting a topic on works and faith, which is what this thread is.

We can't just trade positions without explanation. If that's the case there is no need to discuss any topic any further. Simply say what you think and that be that. Or, if we are done, then that's fine also. up to you.

Where would you like to pick up?

 

[Drew]

Paul is addressing the Christians in Rome as found in Romans 1:7;

Agreed. But that does not mean that everything in his letter must be about them.

If I write you a letter, can I not talk about someone else.

I plan to provide the relevant arguments shortly - I suggest that it is clear that Paul cannot possibly be talking about a Christian in Romans 7.

And I am not alone here - there are competent theologians who hold to the view I wil be arguing for.

 

[Drew]

Exactly! Paul is showing the process he went through before coming to the freedom in Christ. It is very telling when Christians use this to describe their own present state!!!!

I agree. If you read Romans 7 carefully, Paul makes all sorts of statements about being "enslaved to sin".

A Christian enslaved to sin?!?!

How can that possibly be?

 

[Drew]

If the moderators think this is off-topic, I will happily let it drop. So, at least for now, lets talk about that famous of texts: Romans 7:

Here is one of many arguments to the effect that the person in Romans 7 cannot be a Christian:

1. The person described in Romans 7 is experiencing a "law" of sin that leads to death:

but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?

2. The Christian in Romans 8 is described as having been set free from from this law of sin and death.

2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death

3. If the position that the person in Romans 7 is a Christian is correct, - then we have the following statements:

a. The Christian is subject to the law of sin that produces death (clear statement from Romans 7)

b. The Christian is set free from the law of sin that produces death (clear statement from Romans 8)

These statements are inconsistent. Therefore, assuming we agree that the statement from Romans 8 is about the Christian, the Romans 7 cannot be descriptive of the experience of the Christian - one cannot be both subject to the effects of a law and yet also released from its effect.

 

[Elijah674]

1 Cor. 6:9-11 is seen from the past before one was Born Again. Unless Phil. 4:13 + 2 Cor. 12:9 is false Gospel, and it is not such!

[9] Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
[10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
[11] And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

 

[Stan53]

Agreed. But that does not mean that everything in his letter must be about them.

If I write you a letter, can I not talk about someone else.

I plan to provide the relevant arguments shortly - I suggest that it is clear that Paul cannot possibly be talking about a Christian in Romans 7.

And I am not alone here - there are competent theologians who hold to the view I wil be arguing for.

It is about them and their walk. It is about how they perceive the Law under the OC and the Law under the NC. It is about their old and new life. It is about Paul trying to bring these former practicers of Judaism, into Christianity, without bringing along the OC way of doing things.

 

[Stan53]

I agree. If you read Romans 7 carefully, Paul makes all sorts of statements about being "enslaved to sin".

A Christian enslaved to sin?!?!

How can that possibly be?

He talks about what they WERE like in their old selves under the OC and what it is now like under the NC. Don't think that Christians can't have problems with sin. Luke writes about that in Hebrews 12:1-2;

Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run <sup class="crossreference" value='(A)'></sup> with perseverance <sup class="crossreference" value='(B)'></sup> the race marked out for us, <sup class="versenum">2 </sup>fixing our eyes on Jesus, <sup class="crossreference" value='(C)'></sup> the pioneer <sup class="crossreference" value='(D)'></sup> and perfecter of faith.
​

 

[Drew]

It is about them and their walk.

Let me explain precisely why it is entirely plausible that Paul is referring to non-believing Jews under the Law of Moses in Romans 7:

1. One of the reasons Paul wrote this letter is to ensure that the Jewish Christians and the Gentile Christians get along;

2. One of the ways to get Gentiles to accept their Jewish bretheren is to explain to Gentiles precisely how they (the Gentiles) owe the nation of Israel a huge debt in the overall plan of redemption. This is clearly what Paul is talking about in Romans 11;

3. Paul believes that the way the nation of Israel has been "a blessing to the world" is through God using the Law of Moses to harden Israel. It is clear from Romans 11 that some "transgression" of Jews has led to, yes, salvation, for Gentiles;

4. In Romans 7, Paul is explaining how the Law of Moses has indeed hardened the Jew.

There is, in short, every reason to believe that the "I" in Romans 7 is a Jew being hardened under the Law of Moses.

There are compelling supporting arguments, which I plan to provide later.

 

[Stan53]

Let me explain precisely why it is entirely plausible that Paul is referring to non-believing Jews under the Law of Moses in Romans 7:

1. One of the reasons Paul wrote this letter is to ensure that the Jewish Christians and the Gentile Christians get along;

2. One of the ways to get Gentiles to accept their Jewish bretheren is to explain to Gentiles precisely how they (the Gentiles) owe the nation of Israel a huge debt in the overall plan of redemption. This is clearly what Paul is talking about in Romans 11;

3. Paul believes that the way the nation of Israel has been "a blessing to the world" is through God using the Law of Moses to harden Israel. It is clear from Romans 11 that some "transgression" of Jews has led to, yes, salvation, for Gentiles;

4. In Romans 7, Paul is explaining how the Law of Moses has indeed hardened the Jew.

There is, in short, every reason to believe that the "I" in Romans 7 is a Jew being hardened under the Law of Moses.

There are compelling supporting arguments, which I plan to provide later.

A common theme is ALL Paul letters, is that fellow Christians get along. Jew or Gentile. Paul was called to minister to the Gentiles but that doesn't mean he didn't minister to Jews, just as Peter was to minister to the Jews but also ministered to the gentiles as in Acts 10.
Paul relates to the Jewish mindset here as his was prior to being saved and then explains for both Jew and Gentile what their current mindset should be.
Paul shows in v25 what the solution is to the conflict with the Law, where he writes; Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? <sup class="versenum">25 </sup>Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!

 

[Drew]

He talks about what they WERE like in their old selves under the OC and what it is now like under the NC.

You are not answering the question.

In Romans 7, the "I" is described as enslaved to sin.

How can this "I" be a Christian?

Are you suggesting that one can be a Christian and be enslaved to sin?

This is the problem with seeing Romans 7 as describing the Christian - the text clearly describes a person enslaved to sin, and unable to do good.

How can a Christian possibly be in such a condition?

I never suggested otherwise.

There is a huge difference between struggling with sin and being in the state of the person described in Romans 7. That person is entirely enslaved, and unable to do any good!

A Christian unable to do good?

Not possible - the person described in Romans 7 cannot possibly be a Christian.

 

[farouk]

The flesh is always there in the Christian, until the Lord returns or he or she dies. What the believer needs to do is be filled with the Spirit, day by day; and take up the cross daily.

There will always be spiritual conflict: the flesh against the Spirit; in the life of the believer.

 

[Drew]

The flesh is always there in the Christian, until the Lord returns or he or she dies. What the believer needs to do is be filled with the Spirit, day by day; and take up the cross daily.

There will always be spiritual conflict: the flesh against the Spirit; in the life of the believer.

I tend to agree with you (although perhaps some qualification is needed).

Nevertheless, the person in Romans 7 cannot be a Christian - for reasons already provided?

Do you disagree? If so, you are going to need to explain how it is that the Christian does not simply "struggle" with sin - the Christian is enslaved to sin and cannot do good.

That seems impossible to me. And that is how Paul - not me - describes the person in Romans 7.

 

[farouk]

I tend to agree with you (although perhaps some qualification is needed).

Nevertheless, the person in Romans 7 cannot be a Christian - for reasons already provided?

Do you disagree? If so, you are going to need to explain how it is that the Christian does not simply "struggle" with sin - the Christian is enslaved to sin and cannot do good.

That seems impossible to me. And that is how Paul - not me - describes the person in Romans 7.

Drew:

Your writing style is a little aggressive, which is fine as far as I am concerned, but let me just point you to First John also. We read that what is begotten of God sinneth not (1 John 5.18). Does this mean that Christians can't sin? No! but it's not the new nature of a born again believer that is sinning. There will always be spiritual conflict in the believer's life. There have been servants of the Lord, CH Spurgeon, etc., who have gone through anguish as they struggled to respond appropriately to unjust criticism and ill health. There will always be a spiritual conflict; but the believer is no longer under the dominion of sin.

Blessings.

 

[Stan53]

You are not answering the question.

In Romans 7, the "I" is described as enslaved to sin.

How can this "I" be a Christian?

Are you suggesting that one can be a Christian and be enslaved to sin?

This is the problem with seeing Romans 7 as describing the Christian - the text clearly describes a person enslaved to sin, and unable to do good.

How can a Christian possibly be in such a condition?


I never suggested otherwise.

There is a huge difference between struggling with sin and being in the state of the person described in Romans 7. That person is entirely enslaved, and unable to do any good!

A Christian unable to do good?

Not possible - the person described in Romans 7 cannot possibly be a Christian.

Pretty sure I did. I said Paul is talking about our pre-salvation life, starting at v5 and jumps back and forth from past tenses to present tenses. Then at v14 to v25 he remains in the present tense. I don't see a problem with this chapter like you seem to see.

 

[Adullam]

I agree. If you read Romans 7 carefully, Paul makes all sorts of statements about being "enslaved to sin".

A Christian enslaved to sin?!?!

How can that possibly be?

A superficial faith in Christ is more the norm than the exception. The formula for this is "just add Jesus". No repentance...no death of the old man (sin nature). Just a feel good religion of salvation that rewards a life of faith lived through the flesh. Such are saved IN their sins...rather than saved FROM their sins. Or so they expect.

 

[Nick]

[/I]

I'm NOT Arminian, but as I said, totopic









again Danus totopic

If you want to discuss your Calvinist thoughs, start a thread. I'll be glad to hop on it.

It actually does in part fit into this thread.

Regardless, I would appreciate it if only those people who are on staff do the job of staff. Thanks.

 

[Nick]

Do you pray and meditate on the Lord all day long, everyday?

Not all day. Do you?

Have you won more then 10 people to Christ since you were saved?

How is this relevant. It is not us that win people to Christ. We are only able to witness to people by the power of the Holy Spirit and God's Goodness. It is God Alone who wins people over. He uses us as tools, but nothing is of our doing. Where did you get this idea - from Scripture - that we win people over, and how did you come to that number? If I have only won over 6 people since becoming saved, am I less of a Christian than someone that has won over 20? Back this up with Scripture.

Do you read your bible at least 2 x a day for at least 30 minutes?

Where does the Bible state this requirement? Yes, be engrossed in the Word. But how did you come to those figures?

There seems to be quite a bit of legalism here, which we are to avoid. Conviction over regulation.

--

Your argument is flawed. You are arguing that faith without works is dead, and that works must follow faith. That I essentaily agree with, assuming that's what you're arguing. Your post isn't written the best, sorry. However, as I think Danus correctly pointed out, you seem to be making the point that this is a concious human effort for good works. Good works do not come from our own doing for brownie points, but in fact from the heart, convicted by the Holy Spirit through faith.

 

[Elijah674]

The flesh is always there in the Christian, until the Lord returns or he or she dies. What the believer needs to do is be filled with the Spirit, day by day; and take up the cross daily.

There will always be spiritual conflict: the flesh against the Spirit; in the life of the believer.

OK: Agreed!
Now, just say that we are now Born Again & we have a Justified Rom. 8:1 [MIND] and as you rightly say () our body is still 'carnal'.

We still find that we are not 'yet' under the Law until we have [again broken the law]. 1 John 3:4
[4] Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. (New Covenant Side on Bible)

Now comes a road block in my path (one that 'i' do have to fight with! Heb. 12:4-8)
We have the Lord's Law written in our hearts as documented & 'i' am LED by the Holy Spirit as seen in Rom. 8:14! Perfect Mind, being PERFECTLY Led to uphold all Law & then... I look at myself being obese? OK: What comes next??

So now it is found that I am to let my still 'carnal' body control my Born Again mind?? I cannot buy into a thought that might come into my mind on that!;) NO, as much as a battle as this is to me, (and 'i' do fall & get back up & just keep [[working]] on it again) it still REQUIRES constant Born Again Mind controling the carnal body, & not the other way around! And NO, I am not way over weight, but do we judge sin in the weight catagory?? James 2:8-12

And do we ever hear this taught in the pulpit, even by obese ministers?

So lets do get the 'scripture right.'

--Elijah

 

[Drew]

Drew:

Your writing style is a little aggressive,.....

I am not intending to be aggressive - I underline and bold to draw the reader's attention to some key points. I can perhaps see how this may be seen as patronizing or aggressive.

,.. but let me just point you to First John also. We read that what is begotten of God sinneth not (1 John 5.18). Does this mean that Christians can't sin? No!

I am not sure that things are this simple. I agree that this 1 John text is challenging but it is not really relevant to the text at issue. Even if we agree that Christians do sin - and we let 1 John 5:18 slide for the moment - the person in Romans 7 is not merely someone who "still sins". The person described in that chapter is enslaved to sin, unable to do good, and subject to a "law" of sin and death. Can this really be a description of a Christian. I do not see how.

Now let's be fair: In Romans 8, we have a person who has clearly been released from this very same law of sin and death. And, from context, it is clear that the person in Romans 8 is a Christian.

There is a whole block of arguments as to why the person in Romans 7 cannot be a Christian that I have not yet even begun to disclose. Up till now, I have been pointing out the person in Romans 7 cannot be a Christians because Christians can do good (the person in Romans 7 says he cannot!!), and they are certainly not enslaved to sin (the person in Romans is so enslaved).

There is this funny tendency to think that the Bible is "all about us" - that every statement in it has direct application to our lives. I suggest that this view is incorrect and that in Romans 7 in particular, Paul is explaining the experience of the unbelieving Jew who lives under the Law of Moses and cannot win victory that way.

And that brings yet another argument to the fore: Paul is talking about the Law of Moses in Romans 7. And that law was given to Jews and Jews only. So how can Romans 7 be a general treatment of the experience of the believer?

 

[Drew]

Pretty sure I did. I said Paul is talking about our pre-salvation life, starting at v5 and jumps back and forth from past tenses to present tenses. Then at v14 to v25 he remains in the present tense. I don't see a problem with this chapter like you seem to see.

All right, let's see about the "present tense" part:

For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. <SUP class=crossreference value='(AE)'></SUP>For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

A Christian who cannot do good? Can you explain that, please?

I think your only recourse to save your position is to say that Paul is engaging some over-the-top exaggeration when he describes the Christian - as you see it - this way.

Well that does not work precisely because at the very end of 7 and into the beginning of 8, he clearly states that Jesus delivers him from the "present tense" state in Romans 7. So how can he be a Christian in Romans 7:

What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? <SUP class=crossreference value='(AM)'></SUP><SUP class=versenum>25 </SUP>Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! <SUP class=crossreference value='(AN)'></SUP>

I do not believe you have addressed my earlier argument: The "I" in Romans 7 is subject to the law of sin and death; The person in Romans 8 is set free from that very same law. Now since you have to agree that the person in Romans 8 is a Christian, how can the person in Romans 7 be a Christians as well?

In other words, how can a person be both "subject to" this "law" and also "set free" from it?

There are just way too many exegetical problems with the notion that the "I" in Romans 7 is a Christian - even the bit in the present tense. And there is a way to explain the transition from past to present in Romans 7 that does not require us to see the person in Romans 7 as a Christian (in any of the tenses).