"Faith without works is dead".............lets get the scripture right.

[Adullam]

Not all day. Do you?

How is this relevant. It is not us that win people to Christ. We are only able to witness to people by the power of the Holy Spirit and God's Goodness. It is God Alone who wins people over. He uses us as tools, but nothing is of our doing. Where did you get this idea - from Scripture - that we win people over, and how did you come to that number? If I have only won over 6 people since becoming saved, am I less of a Christian than someone that has won over 20? Back this up with Scripture.

Where does the Bible state this requirement? Yes, be engrossed in the Word. But how did you come to those figures?

There seems to be quite a bit of legalism here, which we are to avoid. Conviction over regulation.

--

Your argument is flawed. You are arguing that faith without works is dead, and that works must follow faith. That I essentaily agree with, assuming that's what you're arguing. Your post isn't written the best, sorry. However, as I think Danus correctly pointed out, you seem to be making the point that this is a concious human effort for good works. Good works do not come from our own doing for brownie points, but in fact from the heart, convicted by the Holy Spirit through faith.

I think the OP wishes us to know that he has converted more than 10 people to Christ. We are then somehow to be compared to him as being in favour or not with God. No pride there? Can you say....self justification?

 

[Stan53]

It actually does in part fit into this thread.

Regardless, I would appreciate it if only those people who are on staff do the job of staff. Thanks.

I totally disagree Nick. How do those posts from Danus fit into the OP?

Too bad I have to make these kind of posts. Maybe you should get rid of that icon if it's not allowed to be used.

 

[Drew]

Don't think that Christians can't have problems with sin. Luke writes about that in Hebrews 12:1-2;

Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run <SUP class=crossreference value='(A)'></SUP>with perseverance <SUP class=crossreference value='(B)'></SUP>the race marked out for us, <SUP class=versenum>2 </SUP>fixing our eyes on Jesus, <SUP class=crossreference value='(C)'></SUP>the pioneer <SUP class=crossreference value='(D)'></SUP>and perfecter of faith.
​

There is a big difference between this Hebrews text and the Romans 7 text.

Again:

1. In the Romans 7 text, the "I" is incapable of doing good. A Christian incapable of doing good? Granted, a Christian might not always do good, but they are certainly capable of doing good;

2. In the Romans 7 text, the "I" is enslaved to sin. A Christian enslaved to sin? Granted, as per the text your provide, a Christian can indeed sin at times, but the Christian is certainly not enslaved to sin.

3. Even if we provisionally entertain the possibility that Paul is engaging in the literary device of exaggeration in Romans 7, that possibility disappears when, at the end of the chapter and on into Romans 8, he describes a deliverance from the Romans 7 state into a Christian state. So how can the person in Romans 7 be a Christian?

 

[Drew]

A common theme is ALL Paul letters, is that fellow Christians get along. Jew or Gentile. Paul was called to minister to the Gentiles but that doesn't mean he didn't minister to Jews, just as Peter was to minister to the Jews but also ministered to the gentiles as in Acts 10.

I agree, but this is not relevant to establishing who the "I" in Romans 7 is (i.e. Christian or non-Christian).

Paul relates to the Jewish mindset here as his was prior to being saved and then explains for both Jew and Gentile what their current mindset should be.

The "I" in the present tense in Romans 7 is enslaved to sin and unable to do good. How is that a mindset to which we should aspire?

Paul shows in v25 what the solution is to the conflict with the Law, where he writes; <SUP></SUP>Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? <SUP class=versenum>25 </SUP>Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!

I believe this quote is actually very damaging to your argument. Paul has just described an "I" that is enslaved to sin and unable to do good. You think that "I" is a Christian. Well, in the very line you quote Paul tells us that Jesus delivers us from this wretched state. So how, precisely, does Jesus deliver a Christian "from" the state of being a Christian?

Of course, He does not. Instead, Jesus delivers us from the non-Christian state to the Christian state.

Its a shame that there is a chapter break between 7 and 8. Read as a unit, it is quite clear that Romans 7 is about the non-Christian who is delivered into the Romans 8 state - that of being a Christian - by the very means disclosed in the verse you post: Jesus Christ.

 

[Stan53]

There is a big difference between this Hebrews text and the Romans 7 text.

Again:

1. In the Romans 7 text, the "I" is incapable of doing good. A Christian incapable of doing good? Granted, a Christian might not always do good, but they are certainly capable of doing good;

2. In the Romans 7 text, the "I" is enslaved to sin. A Christian enslaved to sin? Granted, as per the text your provide, a Christian can indeed sin at times, but the Christian is certainly not enslaved to sin.

3. Even if we provisionally entertain the possibility that Paul is engaging in the literary device of exaggeration in Romans 7, that possibility disappears when, at the end of the chapter and on into Romans 8, he describes a deliverance from the Romans 7 state into a Christian state. So how can the person in Romans 7 be a Christian?

Break it down between tenses Drew. You're making assertions without any exegesis.
Use the words IN the scripture and NOT your own words. STOP trying to insert your doctrine INTO the text.

 

[Stan53]

I agree, but this is not relevant to establishing who the "I" in Romans 7 is (i.e. Christian or non-Christian).

All the I's in Roman's 7 relate to Paul in various tenses. Not sure why you see anything else.

The "I" in the present tense in Romans 7 is enslaved to sin and unable to do good. How is that a mindset to which we should aspire?

and exactly what verse in Romans 7 states this assertion of yours?

I believe this quote is actually very damaging to your argument. Paul has just described an "I" that is enslaved to sin and unable to do good. You think that "I" is a Christian. Well, in the very line you quote Paul tells us that Jesus delivers us from this wretched state. So how, precisely, does Jesus deliver a Christian "from" the state of being a Christian?

As I said, all the I's refer to Paul. It doesn't say anywhere about being ensalved in sin. Jesus delivers us (ongoing work by Him in our lives) from our carnal nature.
Your continuing assumption is that Christians DON'T have any problems with sin.
Once we get saved, we magically become impervious to sin.

Of course, He does not. Instead, Jesus delivers us from the non-Christian state to the Christian state.

NOT what Paul writes here. You can say the words all you want, but Paul's/God's written word does NOT say that.

Its a shame that there is a chapter break between 7 and 8. Read as a unit, it is quite clear that Romans 7 is about the non-Christian who is delivered into the Romans 8 state - that of being a Christian - by the very means disclosed in the verse you post: Jesus Christ.

Then you should have noticed that ch 8 starts with; There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Back to the present tense for Paul.
<sup class="versenum"></sup>

 

[farouk]

I am not intending to be aggressive - I underline and bold to draw the reader's attention to some key points. I can perhaps see how this may be seen as patronizing or aggressive.


I am not sure that things are this simple. I agree that this 1 John text is challenging but it is not really relevant to the text at issue. Even if we agree that Christians do sin - and we let 1 John 5:18 slide for the moment - the person in Romans 7 is not merely someone who "still sins". The person described in that chapter is enslaved to sin, unable to do good, and subject to a "law" of sin and death. Can this really be a description of a Christian. I do not see how.

Now let's be fair: In Romans 8, we have a person who has clearly been released from this very same law of sin and death. And, from context, it is clear that the person in Romans 8 is a Christian.

There is a whole block of arguments as to why the person in Romans 7 cannot be a Christian that I have not yet even begun to disclose. Up till now, I have been pointing out the person in Romans 7 cannot be a Christians because Christians can do good (the person in Romans 7 says he cannot!!), and they are certainly not enslaved to sin (the person in Romans is so enslaved).

There is this funny tendency to think that the Bible is "all about us" - that every statement in it has direct application to our lives. I suggest that this view is incorrect and that in Romans 7 in particular, Paul is explaining the experience of the unbelieving Jew who lives under the Law of Moses and cannot win victory that way.

And that brings yet another argument to the fore: Paul is talking about the Law of Moses in Romans 7. And that law was given to Jews and Jews only. So how can Romans 7 be a general treatment of the experience of the believer?

Drew:

Okay

BTW, I don't think the believer is saved to sinless perfect in his or her conduct; there will always be conflict between the old nature and the flesh.

But God's justifying work is perfect: Romans 5.1; Romans 8.1: how God sees the believer in Christ.

Blessings.

 

[Adullam]

Drew:

Okay

BTW, I don't think the believer is saved to sinless perfect in his or her conduct; there will always be conflict between the old nature and the flesh.

But God's justifying work is perfect: Romans 5.1; Romans 8.1: how God sees the believer in Christ.

Blessings.

God always sees men as they truly are...Jesus did not come to pull the wool over the Father's eyes. Keep seeking for a better understanding about how we become the righteousness of God in Christ.

 

[Drew]

Break it down between tenses Drew. You're making assertions without any exegesis.
Use the words IN the scripture and NOT your own words. STOP trying to insert your doctrine INTO the text.

You are not dealing with the questions raised in my post.

I have no idea what point you are making above. It is incorrect (in the question-begging sense) to argue thus:

1. Paul uses the present tense in the last part of Romans 7;

2. When Paul wrote Romans, he was a Christian;

3. Therefore, the "present-tense" material in Romans 7 must be about "Paul the Christian".

Statements 1 and 2 are correct, but conclusion 3 does not necessarily follow. Why not? Paul could be using the term "I" as a literary device to refer to his fellow Jew. No doubt you will object to this. Well, I am prepared to argue that this is not as unlikely as it sounds. Besides, you have not addressed my points, which I repeat below:

Again:

1. In the Romans 7 text, the "I" is incapable of doing good. A Christian incapable of doing good? Granted, a Christian might not always do good, but they are certainly capable of doing good;

2. In the Romans 7 text, the "I" is enslaved to sin. A Christian enslaved to sin? Granted, as per the text your provide, a Christian can indeed sin at times, but the Christian is certainly not enslaved to sin.

3. Even if we provisionally entertain the possibility that Paul is engaging in the literary device of exaggeration in Romans 7, that possibility disappears when, at the end of the chapter and on into Romans 8, he describes a deliverance from the Romans 7 state into a Christian state. So how can the person in Romans 7 be a Christian?

 

[Drew]

Drew:

Okay

BTW, I don't think the believer is saved to sinless perfect in his or her conduct; there will always be conflict between the old nature and the flesh.

But God's justifying work is perfect: Romans 5.1; Romans 8.1: how God sees the believer in Christ.

Blessings.

Do you believe either of the following statements:

1. A Christian is incapable of doing the good s/he wishes to do;
2. A Christian is enslaved to sin.

Well, unless you believe both of these things, you cannot claim that Romans 7 is about the experience of the Christian (unless you are going to argue that Paul is engaging in over-the-top exaggeration). Please note: Paul states both of the above in relation to the "I" in Romans 7.

And the exaggeration line of argument fails anyway, as I have already shown.

 

[farouk]

Do you believe either of the following statements:

1. A Christian is incapable of doing the good s/he wishes to do;
2. A Christian is enslaved to sin.

Well, unless you believe both of these things, you cannot claim that Romans 7 is about the experience of the Christian (unless you are going to argue that Paul is engaging in over-the-top exaggeration). Please note: Paul states both of the above in relation to the "I" in Romans 7.

And the exaggeration line of argument fails anyway, as I have already shown.

Drew:

It's only by the grace of God that the Christian is able to do those things.

Blessings.

 

[Drew]

Drew:

It's only by the grace of God that the Christian is able to do those things.

Blessings.

Not sure what you are saying. Please answer the questions. Again:

Do you believe either of the following statements:

1. A Christian is incapable of doing the good s/he wishes to do;
2. A Christian is enslaved to sin.

 

[for_his_glory]

Matthew 6:1-4
1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

There is nothing that we can do of ourselves to earn Salvation as it is a free gift from God given to those who have faith to believe in His son Christ Jesus. Discipleship means those who follow the doctrines of Christ through Gods word and Servitude means to wait on or serve. It often denotes people who dedicate themselves voluntarily to the service of another. The servants of God are devoted to his service.

Discipleship
Obedience: Willing to do what one is asked according to the will of God
Faithfulness: True and trustworthy in the performance of duty
Perseverance: To persist in any purpose or idea, to strive in spite of difficulties
Love: Intense affection for another arising out of kinship or personal ties
Humility: To be made humble, marked by meekness or modesty
Bearing the Cross: Denying ones self for the purpose of duty

Servitude
Fear: To have reverence, respect and humbleness for another
Uprightness: Walking in the ways of righteousness
Absolute loyalty: A faithful servant in all things
Regeneration: renewal of ones self, a rebirth of all things new

Romans 12:9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.
Romans 12:10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honor preferring one another;
Romans 12:11 Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;
Romans 12:12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
Romans 12:13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.

 

[Danus]

Not sure what you are saying. Please answer the questions. Again:

Do you believe either of the following statements:

1. A Christian is incapable of doing the good s/he wishes to do;
2. A Christian is enslaved to sin.

Ah what the heck, I'll answer the questions. ;)

1. True. A Christian is incapable of doing the good he/she wishes to do, and it's a good thing since he/she does not really know what good is in terms of authorship.

2. A Christian (By definition) is NOT enslaved to sin, but rather brought from that enslavement into the enslavement of salvation. Some might say enslaved to religiousness.....i.e. that which is righteous, but to further clarify, not of their own.

 

[Drew]

Ah what the heck, I'll answer the questions. ;)

1. True. A Christian is incapable of doing the good he/she wishes to do, and it's a good thing since he/she does not really know what good is in terms of authorship.

I cannot imagine how you can say this. Perhaps I was not as clear as I could be. In Romans 7, Paul say this:

For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

I simply cannot understand how one can hold the position that the Christian - a new creation - cannot do any good!

I do not know to deal with the view that a redeemed Christian, being molded into the likeness of Christ cannot do good.

Can you please explain your position? Do you really believe the Christian cannot do good things. How do you reconcile that position with the promise of our being new creations, transformed, and headed for Christlikeness.

2. A Christian (By definition) is NOT enslaved to sin, but rather brought from that enslavement into the enslavement of salvation. Some might say enslaved to religiousness.....i.e. that which is righteous, but to further clarify, not of their own.

Well, we agree here. And this is precisely why the "I" in Romans 7 cannot be a believer.

 

[Danus]

I cannot imagine how you can say this. Perhaps I was not as clear as I could be. In Romans 7, Paul say this:

For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

I simply cannot understand how one can hold the position that the Christian - a new creation - cannot do any good!

I do not know to deal with the view that a redeemed Christian, being molded into the likeness of Christ cannot do good.

Can you please explain your position? Do you really believe the Christian cannot do good things. How do you reconcile that position with the promise of our being new creations, transformed, and headed for Christlikeness.

Sure. It's just semantics. "I" can not do good, BUT...Christ can and Christ in ME does...not I but Christ. And that is how I view Paul's meaning.

 

[Drew]

Sure. It's just semantics. "I" can not do good, BUT...Christ can and Christ in ME does...not I but Christ. And that is how I view Paul's meaning.

OK, I get you. I believe that Paul is talking about something else here, but at least I now know that you are not making what would otherwise appear to be the outrageous assertion that Christians "cannot do good".

 

[Danus]

OK, I get you. I believe that Paul is talking about something else here, but at least I now know that you are not making what would otherwise appear to be the outrageous assertion that Christians "cannot do good".

True, but I'm am reiterating the point Paul was making.

Paul does not see himself as "good", nor is he applying any credit to himself. Paul holds Christ as God, in complete providence.

Romans is probably the most brilliant and often misunderstood, in many ways, of Paul's writings. Least I think so.

In Romans 7, Paul clearly says who he's speaking to. "I am speaking to those who know the law". At the time of Paul's writing, the Jews made up a substantial number in Rome, and their synagogues, frequented by many, enabled the Gentiles to become acquainted with the story of Jesus of Nazareth. Consequently, a church composed of both Jews and Gentiles was formed at Rome, and that's essentially the people Paul is writing to,and those people know the law; basically. "I am speaking to those who know the law".

Paul refers to himself in using the word "I", and Paul is a Christian /Jew. A person born in the Jewish traditions and knowledge who is now a Christian...ie follower of Christ.

Let's not forget that Paul actually meet Christ on the road to Damascus, and he was at that moment converted; born again. Let's also not forget that at that time Christ had already been nailed to the cross.

"The Law" was a point of contention among many then and still today. It often get's mixed up with the saving grace of Christ. Fact is, while the law is important, it's not the point and Paul is saying that we need to understand the law for what it is and move on to the grace of Christ.

Please read starting at 7 below with this in mind, and let's hear your thoughts.

Romans 7

New International Version (NIV)
Released From the Law, Bound to Christ

7 Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? 2 For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. 3 So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.

4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

 

[Drew]

True, but I'm am reiterating the point Paul was making.

Well, we disagree about the fundamental point Paul was making. I believe that the "I" in Romans 7 does not, in any sense whatsoever, denote "Paul the Christian". Instead, I believe the "I" in Romans 7 is a reference to Paul's fellow Jew, who is (1) not a Christian; and (2) Still struggling under the Law of Moses.

I plan to argue the point in detail in future posts.

 

[Danus]

Well, we disagree about the fundamental point Paul was making. I believe that the "I" in Romans 7 does not, in any sense whatsoever, denote "Paul the Christian". Instead, I believe the "I" in Romans 7 is a reference to Paul's fellow Jew, who is (1) not a Christian; and (2) Still struggling under the Law of Moses.

I plan to argue the point in detail in future posts.

Fundamentally, (and that might not be the right word I'm using) you are correct, but Paul is not separating himself from the congregation, and is using himself as example in saying "I".

Former, fellow, Jewish/Christian gentiles and visitors to the church in Rome at that time, just like this forum, were people of many understandings, but the law of God was getting mixed in with the grace of Christ, and; as you said, where struggling with the law.

Let's not assume the gentiles where not having the same problem and they needed Paul to straighten it out.

If any group of people where the most ignorant at that time it was the gentiles. They where learning from Jews, and some of those Jews got it and some did not. There had to be varying degrees of understanding.

In Romans 7 1:7 Paul seems to make this clear. He's addressing those who know the law. He's telling them that the law does not apply in terms of being saved in this way like it once did, and he opens with an example.

Then he closes it like so, 4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.