Faith Without Works is Dead.

[Deborah13]

James doesn't say that faith without works "isn't faith" or "isn't sufficient for salvation." He says that faith without works is "dead." The thief on the cross is a pretty clear indication of the sufficiency of faith alone for salvation and of how radical Jesus' message really is. Where the confusion arises (in my opinion) is in James saying that faith without works is dead and that we are "justified" by faith. "Justification" sounds pretty much like "salvation," and thus it is easy to read James as saying that "there is no salvation without works." He is pretty clearly using "justification" in a different sense from "salvation"; there are plenty of materials online that address this. In light of James' overarching emphasis on being "doers" of the Word and not merely "hearers," his message regarding faith is, I believe, simply that faith without works ("doing") is dead. The works are the evidence of the reality of the faith. To claim to have faith without any evidence of this in your life would make a mockery of the Holy Spirit. In this situation, either your supposed faith wasn't real (sincere) in the first place or it immediately died. If you have no works, God alone knows whether your faith was real in the first place; the rest of us would have no way of knowing, although a faith that was supposedly real but never produced any fruit at all would strike me as "highly unlikely." Faith alone is sufficient for salvation, as the example of the thief on the cross shows; but unless you came to faith while nailed to a cross or on your deathbed (in which case you may have no opportunity for works), you are going to embark on a Christian walk of some duration in which your works will be the evidence that your faith was real and hasn't died, that the Holy Spirit is indeed present in your life.

 

[Brother Mike]

You have addressed so many subjects here. I'll try to be short as possible as each subject needs it's own thread.

Are you suggesting that starting food pantries and engaging in "all kinds of good works" could ever be inconsistent with God's will for a church? Who is it that might be giving the pastor direction not to do all kinds of good works - the Holy Spirit? It seems to me that these activities fit pretty squarely within the commandment to do unto others as we would have done unto us. "Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." James 1:27.

There is not enough money, or resources to do everything per church. Not only that, different sheep fold have different paths and things to do. We are part of a body, we are not the whole body.
For example, my church spent several million to build a school, dig wells, build a church over seas. Several million goes quickly, it's not a lot of money to work with, and that was just what the Lord said do. There are places all over the World that need schools for kids, fresh water and churches.
So, doing what we think is good, is not getting direction from what the Lord said do. Path A and Path B both might be scriptural, and help lots of people, but if the Lord said Path B, and you take Path A, the money won't be there.

I don't believe it's always God's will to heal or that we not experience financial distress. Since the experience of life for even the most devout Christians indicates overwhelmingly that this is not always God's will, if I did believe this I think I'd be in a constant state of cognitive and theological dissonance. Even with my limited human perspective, I can think of many good reasons why "not healing" or "allowing financial distress" would serve God's larger purposes.

I don't know about you, but I work better for the Lord feeling well, and not hurting all the time. You also have that right, may believers that do love God die sick, I am doing my part to change that.

"It takes money and it takes stuff and strength to do good works," Moore tells the Branson crowd in a folksy, conversational tone. "Ain't it perverted that so many Christians are broke and sick and they think it's God's will to keep them broke and sick?"

There is no bashfulness about the church's opinion on wealth. In another sermon, Moore led the crowd in chanting, "Rich, rich, rich."

I am the seed of Abraham, blessed with Faithful Abraham. Even If I don't have a thing, I am far from poor. I am rich, rich, rich and Jesus was made poor so I can be rich. I see no reason to confess anything but what scripture say. Faith speaks, before it sees.
Even so, I have been blessed with all spiritual blessings in Christ Jesus, May not be money, but that makes me pretty rich no matter how you look at it.

And yes, it is perverted to think God who spared not His son will not also give us richly all things to enjoy. Healing for example is nothing compared to eternal life. It's like me telling you I'll give you a million dollars, but I will refuse to give you 10.00 dollars to get something to eat, and watch you starve.

Does it really take "money and stuff" to do good works? "Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?" James 2:5. Just as a counterpoint, I'd look for a modern James at a place like this ("WORKship"): https://workshipreformation.wordpress.com/ I stumbled upon this place after saying for many years that if I were a pastor, this is exactly what my church would look like.

Does it take money? What is money? Nothing, a tool. However try to obey God, Open a church, travel to different places to speak without money.
When you meet that person who is about to be evicted and needs money, would you rather just pray for them that things work out, or would you rather hand them what is needed to remove all the pressure off them?

I'll tell you, handing them 1,000 dollars and seeing the tears come down and them thanking God, beats not having anything to help them with.

Also, my church is Faith Life Church, and My Pastor is Keith Moore.

wow.

 

[Runner]

Also, my church is Faith Life Church, and My Pastor is Keith Moore.

I assumed that. As the atheists love to say, the next time that someone whom the pastor regards as sufficiently faithful suffers an amputated finger, let us know immediately when the healing is scheduled. Or let's find someone the pastor regards as sufficiently faithful, pray really hard, and invest in a Powerball ticket - see how that turns out.

One thing about Christian theology is that it is counterintuitive - it is not what you would "expect" if humans were creating a religion. Many great thinkers from Tertullian in the second century to C. S. Lewis in modern times have emphasized that this "not what you would have expected" aspect is one of the things that convinced them Christianity was true.

I am admittedly skeptical of any version of Christianity that turns it into "pretty much exactly what you'd expect if humans had invented it." This is true, it seems to me, of the prosperity gospel, where Jesus' message somehow meshes perfectly with the human desire for "money and stuff" and the life that God wants you to have is pretty much indistinguishable from the American Dream. Ditto for right-wing "political Christianity," where what God supposedly wants just happens to mesh perfectly with American nationalism, militarism and capitalism.

And yes, it is perverted to think God who spared not His son will not also give us richly all things to enjoy.

God will give us an abundant life in Jesus. This does not inevitably equate to "earthly riches" and "excellent health."

I remember way back when I was knocking on doors for Campus Crusade. One of the least-favorite assignments was the fraternity houses. We'd talk to the frat boys about the "abundant life" they could have in Jesus, while they'd be thinking about their new Mustangs, trust funds and debutante girlfriends and pretty much laughing at us. Even as a 20-year-old Christian newbie, I was sophisticated enough to know that the "abundance" I was talking about was not the "prosperity" they were thinking about.

Your reply sounds sincere, and perhaps you have found a path that works for you and that the Holy Spirit will bless. It isn't my path.

 

[Brother Mike]

Your reply sounds sincere, and perhaps you have found a path that works for you and that the Holy Spirit will bless. It isn't my path.

Well, certainly we are not all called to do the same things. Just keep in mind not to discount something because it's not packaged the way you would like. Certainly saying I am rich, rich, rich in a church would come off a bit strange if you had not been connected to anything else going on. My specialty is teaching people how to believe God, and how to hear from him. I don't do well with baby
Christians, but have great success with hard people like drug addicts, gang members and homeless folks. Without miracles at times, they don't live long enough to know much about God.

So, don't discount something that might help you greatly in the future. If things come apart, the flood comes as it does for everyone as promised to have persecutions in this World, then it's good to talk to someone full of faith, with no doubting.

Faith does not believe God can, Faith believes God will.

Had one baptist friend of mine who just liked to debate tongues, and healing and all kinds of things with me. Great guy, and he let me read lots of his books which I enjoyed. One day he comes over and says, OK, I have been sick all week, lay hands on me, whatever. I can't take it. I said if I do, your healed, right? he said yes, Ok, fine. I am healed. In the name of Jesus, I did, and that next morning not a thing wrong with him, happy.

Now don't think that changed his Baptist thinking. It did change his view on praying when someone gets sick, nothing else.

God always has a way out, Not his will we stay broke and live life sick.

Are you suggesting that starting food pantries and engaging in "all kinds of good works" could ever be inconsistent with God's will for a church?

I just want you to look at this statement for a second. You believe that it's God's will to not sit by and watch folks starve to death. Dying of hunger is a horrible death. I know fasting for 3 days can be rough enough, but that is fasting and knowing if I wanted, there is food to eat. For others, they have no choice, there is no food, and they don't know how to get any.

Now, if you believe we are not to sit by and just watch someone starve when we have the means to feed them, and it's God's will. Then you would also have to believe that God is not Ok with them just dying painfully with cancer. It's a whole lot more work for us to pray that there be enough to go around, call Grocery stores to get products that can't be set on a shelf at a retail store, and call food brokers to get deals so we can stock our shelves. That is a whole lot more work, for us than for God to do something about the cancer.

I know you don't believe God is lazy, right?

His standards are not lower than ours, far from it.

Think about it.

Thank you for your response, and Welcome to he forums. Be blessed.