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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Faith without works........is Faith.
- Thread starter Kidron
- Start date
How is what James says, an utter contradiction to what Paul says?
You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
James 2:24
Not by faith only...
How does Paul's doctrine differ from what James says here?
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
You put James and Paul in utter contradiction to each other when you insist that James is saying that one is made righteous when they do something righteous. But Paul plainly said we are not made righteous by what we do, but rather we are made righteous by God's grace and mercy and not by what we do in righteousness....
"5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." (Titus 3:5-7 NASB bold and italics mine)
....a grace that Paul says is accessed by faith, apart from our works...
"...we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God." (Romans 5:2 NIV)
"5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered." (Romans 4:5-7 NIV)
I know you want to say that Paul and James are talking about two different 'kinds' of works, but Paul's Titus passage above shows he means ALL righteous work, not just works of the law. And James himself isn't just talking about 'non law' works. We know this by the simple fact that he uses the righteous works of the law to teach the church that the faith that saves is the faith that works, citing several very specific laws to make the point--which I posted in an earlier post (I think that was this thread, lol).
I asked you a simple question -
How is what James says, an utter contradiction to what Paul says?
Then you turn around and accuse me of this statement -
Statements like this won't help us to find the common ground, that are to be discovered in the balance of truth.
I, myself, don't see a contradiction in what James teaches in chapter 2 -
for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. James 2:17
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. James 2:24
I don't see any contradiction with this and what Paul teaches.
Could you explain how you see these clear statements by James as contradicting what Paul teaches.
JLB
Paul states that He saved us, by His grace.
Not on the basis of good works that we did.
7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Not good works, or the works of the law, but obedience of faith.
Not works, but the work of obedience.
Obeying the Gospel, the Message of salvation.
Turning from Satan to God.
Confessing Jesus Christ as Lord.
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
I answered your question. I said your doctrine, which I then restated, is what puts them in contradiction to each other. How is that not answering your question?
"21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?" (James 2:21 NASB)
"5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit," (Titus 3:5 NASB)
For these two statement to not be in complete and utter contradiction, it's impossible to say James is saying we are MADE righteous by what we do. Impossible. And you can't play games with works vs. obedience because 'deeds done in righteousness' most certainly would include any and every act of obedience outside of the law, as well as any obedient work of the law. And, as I've shown, James, uses the works of the law to show the church what we do that shows our faith to be alive, not dead.
williamt
Member
Apart from Justification.... I tend to simplify the definition of faith. If faith is an inaction based on belief than it is a dead faith, rather true faith is an action based on belief sustained by confidence in God. These are what some call the ABC's of Faith.
Faith is a fruit of Regeneration. Ezekiel 36:25-27 clarifies that the regenerated heart by the Holy Spirit is the cause of being receptive and obedient to the word of God. As per conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus, unless one is born again (regenerated) they cannot see let alone enter the kingdom of heaven. In my view this clearly attest to a monergistic view of salvation. Again, faith is a fruit of regeneration, and so are works. Works are evidence and fruits of regeneration, but not the basis for it.
God bless,
William
bcbsr
Member
The apparent contradiction between Paul's view of justification in Romans 4 in contrast to James' view in James 2 led Martin Luther of the Protestant Reformation to say in his introduction to the epistle of James, "I do not regard it as the writing of an apostle, and my reasons follow. In the first place it is flatly against St. Paul and all the rest of Scripture in ascribing justification to works 2:24). It says that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered his son Isaac (2:20); Though in Romans 4:22-22 St. Paul teaches to the contrary that Abraham was justified apart from works, by his faith alone, before he had offered his son, and proves it by Moses in Genesis 15:6. Although it would be possible to "save" the epistle by a gloss giving a correct explanation of justification here ascribed to works, it is impossible to deny that it does refer to Moses' words in Genesis 15 (which speaks not of Abraham's works but of his faith, just as Paul makes plain in Romans 4) to Abraham's works. This fault proves that this epistle is not the work of any apostle."
What stands out to me in the two passages is they both quoted Genesis 15:6, but took completely different views as to its interpretation.
Paul writes, "if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." (Gen 15:6) Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works"
While James writes, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." (Gen 15:6) And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only."
Paul's argument hinged upon Gen 15:6 being fulfilled right at the moment Abraham believer, prior to doing any work. While James views Gen 15:6 as a prediction, prophecy of a future event, that wasn't fulfilled until Gen 22. Indeed from his statement that "faith without works is dead" it seems that James viewed Abraham's faith as dead all the way from Gen 15:6 till Gen 22 when he offered up Isaac. His argument is contingent upon that idea.
What stands out to me in the two passages is they both quoted Genesis 15:6, but took completely different views as to its interpretation.
Paul writes, "if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." (Gen 15:6) Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works"
While James writes, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." (Gen 15:6) And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only."
Paul's argument hinged upon Gen 15:6 being fulfilled right at the moment Abraham believer, prior to doing any work. While James views Gen 15:6 as a prediction, prophecy of a future event, that wasn't fulfilled until Gen 22. Indeed from his statement that "faith without works is dead" it seems that James viewed Abraham's faith as dead all the way from Gen 15:6 till Gen 22 when he offered up Isaac. His argument is contingent upon that idea.
Do you understand the difference in the two works mentioned in
Romans 4 and James 2?
JLB
bcbsr
Member
I'm aware how many Christians gloss over James' intended meaning as should be clear from the text, but just as Martin Luther had pointed out, such a gloss is not an honest reading of the text. "Although it would be possible to "save" the epistle by a gloss giving a correct explanation of justification here ascribed to works, it is impossible to deny that it does refer to Moses' words in Genesis 15 (which speaks not of Abraham's works but of his faith, just as Paul makes plain in Romans 4) to Abraham's works. This fault proves that this epistle is not the work of any apostle." Martin Luther
The fact that they both reference Gen 15:6 indicate that they are talking about the same concept of "justification". Regarding "works", both are referring to things that you do. Now if you're saying that by "works", Paul is not including works of faith, then aren't you interpreting Paul to say that one must do "works of faith", such water baptism, changing your behavior, attending church, and such, in order to be justified. Indeed that seems to be implied in some of your previous posts.
Yet it seems that Paul is rather comprehensive in his description of "works". And furthermore what of Abraham. Essentially if "works of faith" are a requirement for salvation then it would not be true that Gen 15:6, when Abraham believed God, right then he was justified, prior to him doing any works of faith. Thus you're implication that "works of faith" are necessary to be saved contradicts what Paul explicitly says in that passage in Romans 4.
Jethro Bodine
Member
I agree.
"5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy" (Titus 3:5 NASB)
The law is not the only definition of what a 'deed done in righteous' is.
I agree. But the argument is then made that he did works of faith prior to Genesis 15. But James does not refer to any of those, but specifically to his work of offering Isaac on the altar as the time at which he was declared righteous by what he did, long after he has already been declared righteous by his faith.
Here's where it gets sticky. I do believe works of faith are necessary to be saved, but not in order to be MADE righteous by those works, but because they are the expected and obligatory outcome of the person who has been made a righteous person. As John points out, a righteous person does righteous things, or else they simply are not a righteous person (1 John 3:9-10 NASB). So it is in that sense that a person does have to do works of faith to be saved--not to be made righteous, but to be saved at the Judgment, those works being the supporting evidence that SHOWS them to have been made righteous by their faith in Christ apart from their works.
I don't use the term "works" of faith, because we are already in the process of rightly dividing the "works" of the law, from the "works" that James is describing.
James "works", is the work of obedience, or what the bible calls: the obedience of faith.
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26
The works that James is describing, establishes a principle of faith, that can not be disregarded if one desires to accomplish, what faith was meant to accomplish.
This principle holds true, whether it is faith for Salvation, or faith for building an Ark.
Faith comes by hearing God.
Faith comes from God.
Abraham's believing culminated, in this act of obedience; in other words, Abraham's believing was proved to be genuine, or alive, when tested.
Example: A Jewish man hears the Gospel, and believes, and rejoices with the joy of salvation, then later, he is persecuted by other Jews to turn back to the law and renounce Jesus or be stoned to death.
The man renounces Jesus, and turns back to practicing the law of Moses... and dies some years later, as a faithful follower of Judaism.
Did this man obey the Gospel command to repent; to turn to God. To change your mind about Who you serve?
If we understand that faith is the substance of things hoped for....and the evidence of things not seen, then it becomes quite clear what Peter means when he says these words... Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,
receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls.1 Peter 1:8-9
The end of your faith, is the salvation of your soul.
So if we have faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, we have the hope of salvation.
Jesus said it this way -
Those who endure to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13
Paul says it like this -
And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight--if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23
and again
12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,
Hebrews 3:12-14
Paul describes this principle in more detail, but this should be enough to chew on for now.
JLB
.
Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
It indeed is the gospel we are judged by. Rom 2:16. In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. Since believers never come into condemnation (John 5:24), and Rom 8:1 says there is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, just what judgment is being spoken of? Jesus at this present time walks amidst the candlesticks (The churches), and we read of it in Rev Chapters Two & Three.
Well, what is James speaking of? We are known by our works by who? It is practical Christian living and how we are perceived. We want to notice who James is writing to in Jam 1:1, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad.
James is also addressing Israel in the last days. Jas 5:3. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days. I have the following excerpt from Sermons on James at Grace and Glory College that may be helpful.
“Bear in mind, then, that James did not write to the Church. He was one of the kingdom apostles with a kingdom message. His ministry was distinct from that of the Apostle Paul; his Gospel apparently was different from Paul's Gospel.
Paul emphasizes grace; because he puts God's side of salvation to the front. James here emphasizes works, not as a means of salvation, but as a proof of the possession of salvation.
The theme of this epistle is Faith Made Practical.”
Have you considered that Paul’s writing is the direct result is that which was revealed to him from our risen Savior?
Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
It indeed is the gospel we are judged by. Rom 2:16. In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. Since believers never come into condemnation (John 5:24), and Rom 8:1 says there is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, just what judgment is being spoken of? Jesus at this present time walks amidst the candlesticks (The churches), and we read of it in Rev Chapters Two & Three.
Well, what is James speaking of? We are known by our works by who? It is practical Christian living and how we are perceived. We want to notice who James is writing to in Jam 1:1, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad.
James is also addressing Israel in the last days. Jas 5:3. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days. I have the following excerpt from Sermons on James at Grace and Glory College that may be helpful.
“Bear in mind, then, that James did not write to the Church. He was one of the kingdom apostles with a kingdom message. His ministry was distinct from that of the Apostle Paul; his Gospel apparently was different from Paul's Gospel.
Paul emphasizes grace; because he puts God's side of salvation to the front. James here emphasizes works, not as a means of salvation, but as a proof of the possession of salvation.
The theme of this epistle is Faith Made Practical.”
bcbsr
Member
How can you say that you do believe works of faith are necessary to be saved? If that's the case then you don't believe a person is saved by faith apart from works, contrary to what Paul says.
Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,
Paul says Salvation is not contingent upon doing righteous things.
So from your point of view was Abraham saved in Gen 15:6, or was he not saved until Gen 22?
Ac 2:21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’
Act 16:31 Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved
Rom 3:24 we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.
Ro 5:9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!
Ro 10:10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
Ro 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Ro 5:9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!
Ga 2:16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Reread my post.
They are only necessary in that the faith that justifies all by itself apart from works is the faith that then produces work. The (so-called) faith that doesn't produce work is not the faith that justifies all by itself apart from work.
Jethro Bodine
Member
I like the analogy of the swimming pool.
To be in the club all you have to do is go swimming in the pool. That alone is what's required to be in the club. But some argue that you ALSO have to get wet to be in the club. True, you do, but only because that is the expected and obligatory outcome of having gone swimming in the pool, the swim in the pool having satisfied the requirements for membership all by itself.
Then comes along the person who insists they've been in the pool but is bone dry and they vehemently remind you that being in the pool is all that's required to be in the club, alone, not realizing that the getting wet part is in fact necessary to be in the club, but only as the expected consequence of having been in the pool. And off they storm in their dry, dusty selves reassuring themselves that they are indeed in the club and nobody can tell them different because the rules say the only thing that is required to be in the club is that you go swimming in the pool.
To be in the club all you have to do is go swimming in the pool. That alone is what's required to be in the club. But some argue that you ALSO have to get wet to be in the club. True, you do, but only because that is the expected and obligatory outcome of having gone swimming in the pool, the swim in the pool having satisfied the requirements for membership all by itself.
Then comes along the person who insists they've been in the pool but is bone dry and they vehemently remind you that being in the pool is all that's required to be in the club, alone, not realizing that the getting wet part is in fact necessary to be in the club, but only as the expected consequence of having been in the pool. And off they storm in their dry, dusty selves reassuring themselves that they are indeed in the club and nobody can tell them different because the rules say the only thing that is required to be in the club is that you go swimming in the pool.
....because he was told, that to be in the club, they were required to get in the pool....or at least that is what the message had become by the time it was presented to him.
In reality the whole "message" was
'get in the pool and go swimming'.
When it was his turn, the pool was empty, so he walked down the steps into a dry and empty pool, turned and walked back out, proclaiming he was now in the club.
So it is, with those who preach an incomplete Spirit-less Gospel, not having been sent at all.
And how shall they preach unless they are sent? Romans 10:15
JLB
bcbsr
Member
Jethro,
What you're saying is inherently contradictory.
If works are NECESSARY to be saved, then it is not true that faith justifies a person apart from works.
Consider Paul's example of Abraham in Romans 4 (And it doesn't go without notice that you didn't answer my question on this point). To prove that one is justified apart from works he noted that Abraham was justified in Gen 15:6 simply by believing the promise, prior to doing any work.
So I asked whether you agree with Paul that Abraham was saved in Gen 15:6 or whether he wasn't saved until Gen 22 as James proports.
Your analogy of the pool is a fallacy. There you associate faith with swimming (which is a work) and work with getting wet, which arguably could be construed as not a work insomuch as someone can throw you in without your own effort involved. Your analogy is false.
Take Abraham. In your analogy Abraham took a swim in Gen 15:6, but he didn't get wet until Gen 22. Try again!
Jethro Bodine
Member
Abraham was declared righteous in God's sight in Genesis 15, apart from the merit of work (Romans 4:5 NASB). I don't know what you think I was avoiding. I'm not in disagreement with you about when and how Abraham was made righteous.
So, certainly you would say that being immersed in the Holy Spirit is a work of personal merit, too, then, right?
I don't.
No one can throw a person into an immersion of the Holy Spirit.
The analogy is valid to the extent I used it. I made no mention of the possibility of being pushed into the water, or countless other things that can happen in and around a pool and everything associated with a pool.
No. Genesis 22 is where we can see with our eyes the evidence of him having been immersed in the righteousness of God back in Genesis 15.
Works are clearly obedience.
Works in James 2 = The work of Obedience.
Obedience is not always physical work.
Let's examine this principle from the garden.
Adam violated God's law of sin and death, whereby death spread to all men.
Adam's sin was disobedience, which is the same as unbelief.
And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."
Genesis 2:16-17
Adam was sinless, and in a state of being right with God. ie: Adam was righteous.
For Adam to remain right with God, all he needed to do was obey.
His obedience did not require any work [physical labor], but only "not eating of the tree".
Likewise, the obedience of faith, concerning salvation requires that one obey the gospel command to repent, which is to turn from Satan to God.
This action of obedience is "confessing with your mouth, Jesus as Lord".
Before we turn to God, we are under the power of Satan, and are held captive in his kingdom, where by he is our lord.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10
The act of obedience, that brings about salvation is this confession of Jesus as Lord.
That is the action of repentance, the effort obedience requires.
Work = the effort obedience requires, whether the effort to "not eat of the tree"... or the effort of confession.
to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.' Acts 26:18
Focus on the wording -
turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, [so] that they may receive forgiveness...
...turn from Satan to God, SO THAT, they may receive forgiveness, through this act of obedience.
JLB