Faith without works........is Faith.

[WIP]

Locking this thread until I can decide what action I'm going to take. Seems we are still struggling to keep the personal remarks out of the discussion.

Okay, the thread has now been reopened. My prayer is that we can avoid the sarcasm and puffed up remarks and discuss this topic with Christian love and respect.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Your view is basically that there are things that we do that earns or deserves loss of salvation.

No. That is not the argument.

The view is, there is something you have to have, not do, in order to not lose salvation. But that is repeatedly heard to mean, "you have to do works to get salvation". OSAS uses the works argument to defend an argument for faith. But we're not talking about works. We're talking about faith. You have to have faith to be saved. It's only appropriate that one would use a works argument if the issue was with works But it's not about works. It's an issue about losing salvation on the basis of a loss of faith, not on the basis of a loss of works. But time and time again OSAS will reach for the works argument to somehow prove that an argument for faith is false.

That denies grace. Which is the problem with your view.

No, the problem is OSAS thinks you can still have salvation apart from the grace of God. How so? By arguing that you can not lose something that was graciously given to you through faith (*see verse below) if you do not have the faith that accesses that grace anymore. And then to top it off, uses Paul's works argument as the irrational and inapplicable defense for an argument for faith, not works, being required to access God's grace.

* "...we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand..." (Romans 5:2 NIV)


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[JLB]

Why would anyone think that I ever said that believers receive a "divine nature"? That question reveals a serious lack of understanding or attention to what I did post. I said believers receive a new nature. One that cannot sin. That's what "God's seed" means in 1 Jn 3:9.

So, are you implying that the new nature is not divine?


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

To claim that OSAS makes faith "like works" is absurd.

Then why does OSAS play Paul's works card when the argument is made that one must not lose faith in order to be saved*, as if the necessity to persevere in faith (to have access to God's unmerited grace) is equivalent to Paul's works that can not justify?

*2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you." (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB)


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[TheBarrd]

Doesn't it make sense that once a person places his faith in Jesus Christ, and Jesus comes to dwell within that person, that there is going to be a change in him?
Won't he be much more likely to notice people in need, and won't he want to help where ever he can?
To him, it isn't a matter of "works"...he isn't looking at himself, checking to see if he's "living right"...he's looking at the need and trying to figure out how to fill it.
You'll see tears trembling in his eyes when he sees those commercials...you know, with the starving little children, or the abused animals...and he will likely be sending his money to such causes.
He doesn't see it as "works"...what he sees is hungry kids, or suffering animals.
That is because his faith within him is alive.
And that is the difference...

(A reminder to all, especially new members, there is a rule in the A&T forum that posts must contain relative scripture. The specific guidelines for this forum can be found at this link. This post could have had much scripture backing it!)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Paul ALONE decided what he meant in 11;29 about gifts. He described gifts in 1:11, 3:24, 5:15,16,17 and 6:23. THOSE are what he was referring to, and no one has shown anything different from the context of the whole letter to the Romans.

Okay, let's walk through this step by step.

You are insisting that the gift of forgiveness is not included in the gifts that Paul says are irrevocable in Romans 11:29 NASB. You say that because you say forgiveness is not a gift from God because the Bible does not call it a gift or describe it as gift. But I've shown you where the Bible does describe it as a gift, equating forgiveness of sins exactly with the gift of redemption:

"redemption, the forgiveness of sins" (Colossians 1:14 NASB)

"24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption (the forgiveness of sins--see above) which is in Christ Jesus" (Romans 3:24 NASB)

If you disagree that your forgiveness--your redemption--is not a gift, what did you do to earn your redemption?

So, your doctrine has two choices here:

1) Either acknowledge that forgiveness is a free unmerited gift from God, or

2) say that forgiveness is earned by the one forgiven.

If you say it is earned, obviously, you deny the very essence of grace salvation, and if you acknowledge that forgiveness really is a gift then you must include it in the gifts listed in Romans 11:29, but you can't do that because that would contradict Jesus' words that forgiveness IS revocable in the kingdom. We'll proceed from whichever of the two you choose.

Trying to bring in Matt 18 is just a feeble attempt to deny the truth of what Paul wrote.

No it's not, because it's proof that it's impossible to say that by virtue of something being given for free apart from works to earn it you can not lose it, or have it taken away.

The feeble attempt that has been made here is the insistence that forgiveness can not be defined as a free gift. That's ludicrous. But if you want to stick with the argument you have no choice but to say you did something to earn your forgiveness since it's not a free gift given from God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Doesn't it make sense that once a person places his faith in Jesus Christ, and Jesus comes to dwell within that person, that there is going to be a change in him?
Won't he be much more likely to notice people in need, and won't he want to help where ever he can?
To him, it isn't a matter of "works"...he isn't looking at himself, checking to see if he's "living right"...he's looking at the need and trying to figure out how to fill it.
You'll see tears trembling in his eyes when he sees those commercials...you know, with the starving little children, or the abused animals...and he will likely be sending his money to such causes.
He doesn't see it as "works"...what he sees is hungry kids, or suffering animals.
That is because his faith within him is alive.
And that is the difference...

Reminds me of this verse:

"17 But whoever * has the world's goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him? " (1 John 3:17 NASB bold mine)

 

[TheBarrd]

Reminds me of this verse:

"17 But whoever * has the world's goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him? " (1 John 3:17 NASB bold mine)

Exactly. Didn't Jesus tell us that the world would know His disciples by their love?
It's not something they have to think about...it wells up from within them naturally, because the faith in them is alive.

 

[JLB]

Okay, let's walk through this step by step.

You are insisting that the gift of forgiveness is not included in the gifts that Paul says are irrevocable in Romans 11:29 NASB. You say that because you say forgiveness is not a gift from God because the Bible does not call it a gift or describe it as gift. But I've shown you where the Bible does describe it as a gift, equating forgiveness of sins exactly with the gift of redemption:

"redemption, the forgiveness of sins" (Colossians 1:14 NASB)

"24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption (the forgiveness of sins--see above) which is in Christ Jesus" (Romans 3:24 NASB)

If you disagree that your forgiveness--your redemption--is not a gift, what did you do to earn your redemption?

So, your doctrine has two choices here:

1) Either acknowledge that forgiveness is a free unmerited gift from God, or

2) say that forgiveness is earned by the one forgiven.

If you say it is earned, obviously, you deny the very essence of grace salvation, and if you acknowledge that forgiveness really is a gift then you must include it in the gifts listed in Romans 11:29, but you can't do that because that would contradict Jesus' words that forgiveness IS revocable in the kingdom. We'll proceed from whichever of the two you choose.



No it's not, because it's proof that it's impossible to say that by virtue of something being given for free apart from works to earn it you can not lose it, or have it taken away.

The feeble attempt that has been made here is the insistence that forgiveness can not be defined as a free gift. That's ludicrous. But if you want to stick with the argument you have no choice but to say you did something to earn your forgiveness since it's not a free gift given from God.

Thank you Jethro,

For your time that you put in here, carefully and patiently explaining and expounding clearly from God's word.

It is so sad to see just how far, folks that believe the OSAS doctrine, will go to deny the truth of the scriptures.




JLB

 

[king1]

"I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing
Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness.
It starts with faith works flow from from the disire to do his work. Take care of his flock.

(A reminder to all, especially new members, all scripture quotes must contain the chapter, verse, and version reference. This is a matter of copyright laws as well as forum rules. There are also specific guidelines for this forum that can be found at this link.)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Thank you Jethro,

For your time that you put in here, carefully and patiently explaining and expounding clearly from God's word.

It is so sad to see just how far, folks that believe the OSAS doctrine, will go to deny the truth of the scriptures.




JLB

Thank you, kind sir. And thank you for your faithful efforts.

16 From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work. (Ephesians 4:16 NASB)


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[Jethro Bodine]

It starts with faith works flow from from the disire to do his work. Take care of his flock.

Yes!

"3 We continually remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ. " (1 Thessalonians 1:3 NIV)

"5 Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith. " (Romans 1:5 NIV)

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[childeye]

Doesn't it make sense that once a person places his faith in Jesus Christ, and Jesus comes to dwell within that person, that there is going to be a change in him?
Won't he be much more likely to notice people in need, and won't he want to help where ever he can?
To him, it isn't a matter of "works"...he isn't looking at himself, checking to see if he's "living right"...he's looking at the need and trying to figure out how to fill it.
You'll see tears trembling in his eyes when he sees those commercials...you know, with the starving little children, or the abused animals...and he will likely be sending his money to such causes.
He doesn't see it as "works"...what he sees is hungry kids, or suffering animals.
That is because his faith within him is alive.
And that is the difference...

A succinct post that glorifies God.

 

[Eugene]

"I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing
Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness.
It starts with faith works flow from from the disire to do his work. Take care of his flock.

Amen dear Brother king1, and welcome to CF.net in Jesus' name.

 

[A New Dawn]

Thank you Jethro,

For your time that you put in here, carefully and patiently explaining and expounding clearly from God's word.

It is so sad to see just how far, folks that believe the OSAS doctrine, will go to deny the truth of the scriptures.

JLB

I don't think that denying that forgiveness is a gift has anything to do with OSAS. Can you show me how they are connected? If anything, OSAS believers would have to believe that it is a gift.

 

[JLB]

I don't think that denying that forgiveness is a gift has anything to do with OSAS. Can you show me how they are connected? If anything, OSAS believers would have to believe that it is a gift.

I was thanking Jethro for his work on this Forum, and about this subject in particular.

I would have to ask you, what you believe, in order to dialog with you about this subject.


Do you believe forgiveness is a gift from God, or do you believe forgiveness is earned?



Thanks, JLB

 

[A New Dawn]

I was thanking Jethro for his work on this Forum, and about this subject in particular.

I would have to ask you, what you believe, in order to dialog with you about this subject.


Do you believe forgiveness is a gift from God, or do you believe forgiveness is earned?



Thanks, JLB

Why do you need to know that in order to answer the question?

 

[JLB]

Why do you need to know that in order to answer the question?

Because that particular post dealt with one person's opinion from a scripture from Romans 11.

I would need to know where you are coming from based on what scriptures you discuss, to understand you and what you believe.

I don't want to represent what another member may or may not believe, by dialoging with you about their beliefs.

Based on this statement below, could you share a little more about this statement, so I can understand what point you are trying to make?

I don't think that denying that forgiveness is a gift has anything to do with OSAS.

Do you believe forgiveness is a gift from God, or do you believe forgiveness is earned?


JLB

 

[A New Dawn]

Because that particular post dealt with one person's opinion from a scripture from Romans 11.

I would need to know where you are coming from based on what scriptures you discuss, to understand you and what you believe.

I don't want to represent what another member may or may not believe, by dialoging with you about their beliefs.

Based on this statement below, could you share a little more about this statement, so I can understand what point you are trying to make?



Do you believe forgiveness is a gift from God, or do you believe forgiveness is earned?


JLB

The point I was trying to make was that you were drawing incorrect conclusions and making inaccurate observations. You responded to Jethro with this, presumably regarding the person Jethro had responded to, not Jethro, himself:

It is so sad to see just how far, folks that believe the OSAS doctrine, will go to deny the truth of the scriptures.

presumably regarding the discussion points in the post Jethro was addressing, that forgiveness is not a gift of God.

I, personally, am not discussing this point, I am wanting to know how you correlate not believing that forgiveness is a gift with OSAS belief. What I believe on the subject has no correlation to how you connect them.

 

[Obadiah]

Ok, that's enough. From the A&T forum guidelines: :You may ask a member questions as to what they believe on certain topics relative to the subject of the thread, but please keep in mind the member is under no obligation to answer."

Lets go back to the topic.