Growth Fearing God and fearing Satan

[GodsGrace]

I stopped a tornado that was about to run over the top of me, I have covenant with God and the power of the name of Jesus. Why would you want to stop Satan from destroying his own? We don't have that right or authority over them, if we did, then all the kids in America would be safe, well fed, and not neglected because I would pray that. The child is sanctified by the believing parent though, and even christian parents are full of unbelief.

Thanks for making a fool of me Brother Mike.

It's so nice that you have such a great and personal relationship with God
and that HE does everything YOU desire.

Some day you'll teach me how to do this.

Wondering

 

[Brother Mike]

Thanks for making a fool of me Brother Mike.

It's so nice that you have such a great and personal relationship with God
and that HE does everything YOU desire.

Some day you'll teach me how to do this.

Wondering

I tried to help you, not make a fool out of you. Personal relationship with God has nothing to do with it, I believe what He said without questioning over what I see, hear, what my senses pick up. You do not, because "Sometimes" what God said to you just does not work. Your own statement.

Even the disciples whom Jesus gave power to cast out devils, raise the dead, heal the sick could not cast the devil out of the boy who kept throwing himself in the fire. All the power was there, but they failed.

The did not say, well, sometimes it's God's will not to help.
They did not say, the devil was a bit bigger and badder that day.
They did not say, it works sometimes, and somethings you just never know.

They asked Jesus, "why could WE not cast him out." Jesus said because of your unbelief, because you give the command once, that's it, they had something to learn.

According to you, you have perfect faith, never had a fear, never doubted a bit and the scriptures just do not work. Your perfect according to what you said. It's the Word's fault, the devils fault, God's fault, nothing you need to change.

Me, I am not confused, it's never God's fault, He is for me, not against me, never the Word''s fault, the eternal word is true, unchanging and Satan has no recourse around it. It's always my fault if I come short, and it's my responsibility to find out what I don't understand and what I need to change.

You don't think you need to change, that may cost you later.

Mike.

 

[GodsGrace]

I tried to help you, not make a fool out of you. Personal relationship with God has nothing to do with it, I believe what He said without questioning over what I see, hear, what my senses pick up. You do not, because "Sometimes" what God said to you just does not work. Your own statement.

Even the disciples whom Jesus gave power to cast out devils, raise the dead, heal the sick could not cast the devil out of the boy who kept throwing himself in the fire. All the power was there, but they failed.

The did not say, well, sometimes it's God's will not to help.
They did not say, the devil was a bit bigger and badder that day.
They did not say, it works sometimes, and somethings you just never know.

They asked Jesus, "why could WE not cast him out." Jesus said because of your unbelief, because you give the command once, that's it, they had something to learn.

According to you, you have perfect faith, never had a fear, never doubted a bit and the scriptures just do not work. Your perfect according to what you said. It's the Word's fault, the devils fault, God's fault, nothing you need to change.

Me, I am not confused, it's never God's fault, He is for me, not against me, never the Word''s fault, the eternal word is true, unchanging and Satan has no recourse around it. It's always my fault if I come short, and it's my responsibility to find out what I don't understand and what I need to change.

You don't think you need to change, that may cost you later.

Mike.

I'm replying for those reading along.

I NEVER said it was God's fault.
I said we're living in a system and this is how the system works.

If you're living in a different system and God does miracles for you on a continuous basis, I'm happy for you.
Please don't try to help me.
You don't even know me.

W

 

[Brother Mike]

I'm replying for those reading along.

I NEVER said it was God's fault.
I said we're living in a system and this is how the system works.

If you're living in a different system and God does miracles for you on a continuous basis, I'm happy for you.
Please don't try to help me.
You don't even know me.

W

There is nothing I can do to help, if you don't want it. It's not God's best to have to do continual miracles to bail us out through by our own faults. He would rather we be led by the Holy Spirit and led out of the traps and temptations. he is still there though, because we do mess things up.

 

[AirDancer]

Reminder: Foundation of Faith forum is a NON-Debate forum.

Let's keep the discussion friendly.

 

[Hospes]

Just to stir thinking...

“So have no fear of them, for nothing is covered that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known. What I tell you in the dark, say in the light, and what you hear whispered, proclaim on the housetops. And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. But even the hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows. (Matthew 10:26-31 ESV)

 

[K2CHRIST]

"Satan can only gain power if we let him."

Did we let him tear down houses and kill people in the last hurricane in the U.S.?
Was that up to US?
Did we have the power to stop it?

W

Phil 4:19 And my God will supply all your needs according to His riches and glory in Christ Jesus

We fear God and not Satan, not because Satan has not been given some power and authority, he has. We fear God because all authority and power comes from God, not Satan.

Now we have the power that rose Jesus Christ from the dead in us, but it is not our power but His power in us!! We have the Holy Spirit!

It sometimes seen we start getting a bit confused and start thinking it is our thinking, our plans, our authority, our power, and forget we need to talk the Lord and comes under His thinking, His plans, His authority, and His power. We sometime change Phil 4:19 to be interpreted as 'And my God will supply all your needs according to our riches and glory and thinking about Christ Jesus.

We didn't let the last hurricane tear down houses, anymore that Abram let God destroy Sodom. Abraham, knowing God and HIs righteousness talked to the Lord and interceded for those in Sodom, so some were saved, but the fire still fell according to the plan of God. Abraham did not suppose that he was going to stop the purpose and plans of God but realized that there is value in having a relationship with God!

Fearing God does not mean we know we have the power to stop it, it means we know and fear the One who does have the power to stop it, and we find Him inside us!

 

[GodsGrace]

Phil 4:19 And my God will supply all your needs according to His riches and glory in Christ Jesus

We fear God and not Satan, not because Satan has not been given some power and authority, he has. We fear God because all authority and power comes from God, not Satan.

Now we have the power that rose Jesus Christ from the dead in us, but it is not our power but His power in us!! We have the Holy Spirit!

It sometimes seen we start getting a bit confused and start thinking it is our thinking, our plans, our authority, our power, and forget we need to talk the Lord and comes under His thinking, His plans, His authority, and His power. We sometime change Phil 4:19 to be interpreted as 'And my God will supply all your needs according to our riches and glory and thinking about Christ Jesus.

We didn't let the last hurricane tear down houses, anymore that Abram let God destroy Sodom. Abraham, knowing God and HIs righteousness talked to the Lord and interceded for those in Sodom, so some were saved, but the fire still fell according to the plan of God. Abraham did not suppose that he was going to stop the purpose and plans of God but realized that there is value in having a relationship with God!

Fearing God does not mean we know we have the power to stop it, it means we know and fear the One who does have the power to stop it, and we find Him inside us!

I don't fear God.
i love God.

I never said WE made any hurricane tear down any houses.
You misunderstood.

W

 

[Hospes]

I don't fear God.

W, I am pretty sure you do your best to let scripture form your thinking. So, what do you do with the passages that speak of the good of fearing God? Are you using the word fear in a different way than the Bible?

 

[GodsGrace]

W, I am pretty sure you do your best to let scripture form your thinking. So, what do you do with the passages that speak of the good of fearing God? Are you using the word fear in a different way than the Bible?

Hospes,
We're lost in translation.
I was replying to what K2CHRIST said.
I know what fearing God means.
Taught kids what it means for years.

I might have misunderstood him - I though he meant actual fear.
If so, I'm sorry.

I do not FEAR God
I LOVE God.

So what is fear in relation to God?
It's respect, it's God's wisdom for our lives, it's a healthy knowing that He is right.
Fear of the Lord saves us from much grief.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom.
Psalms 111:10

Wondering
where have you been?

 

[K2CHRIST]

I don't fear God.
i love God.

I never said WE made any hurricane tear down any houses.
You misunderstood.

W

I didn't say WE made any hurricanes, nor did I think you said it, so is it me or you that is misunderstanding

"Satan can only gain power if we let him."
and
"Did we let him tear down houses and kill people in the last hurricane in the U.S.?"

The point I was making is that God has a plan and He has the power and the authority!

It is not our power or authority, but rather it's that we have God in us and He works through us! And that to accomplish His plans, not ours!

And the Bible is clear about us needing to fear God. In fact it points outs that there is a connection between fearing God and loving Him. Of course that fear is like a child would fear a loving father. It's kind of a respect, but a loving father reproves and disciplines a son he loves. And God does that.

Deut 10:12 And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,

Prov 22:15 Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.


And, does Satan really only gain of have power if we let him, or if God let's Him?

Jesus told Pilate that he would have no power over Him except that the Father had given it to him.

John 19:11 Jesus answered, “You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.”

Jesus understood that authority was given by the Father and not even Himself. And power follows the authority. So Pilate had the authority to place Jesus on the cross and it was done. We can ask God and intercede but to suggest we control the power or authority given to Satan is wrong. We can make requests of God who does control has the authority and power to give to whom He wishes.

He wishes to give us authority and power but that in the form of God living in us!! So we can talk to God and obey God and have God, but we are not God!

 

[K2CHRIST]

Believers should have God living in them! So the power in us is in the form of God in us, not power apart from God in us. And God deserves respect and in a sense that we need to fear Him. I don't know about others, but I can think of times when I didn't fear Him like I should.

For example, once I had been arguing with the Lord about some little thing which I can't even remember anymore. And I told Him, "What are you going to do? Hit me over the side of the head?"

And then He did. POW - right on the side of the head I felt the pop!

It was awesome. That I don't forget. It hurt a bit but it also caused me to laugh. He actually hit me on the side of the head. I was wrong of course, and I had know it when arguing with Him. But that wasn't important anymore. My God could and would actually hit me if I needed it. It was important for me to understand that. I needed that fear put into me, and He cared enough to do it.

Jesus reproves those He loves. I have been lucky enough to get His reproof often. Mostly it is extremely gentle and kind, but it was nice to know He cares enough to knock me upside the head if I need it.

 

[eddif]

Satan should be forced to live in YOUR domain. God did not make earth for Satan, He made it for you. Satan has to listen to you, you don't have to listen to him.

Luk 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
Luk 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

weapons will be formed against you (Isa 54:17) but we don't' cave in when we see the weapon, this is where believers fail, they fall apart when the weapon comes. The weapon presents itself in the form of physical evidence.

Mar 4:17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

Satan can only persecute the Word of God in your life. He has no other options because He can't get around someone standing, not moving on the scriptures. He is powerless against someone that won't be moved, He needs to convince the person that "Surely God did not say"

I Corinthians 9:12
If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.

We have a lot of dominion rights that we may choose not to take advantage of.

Not take advantage of rights? Choose to suffer instead of prosper? Why yes. If I spend all my time getting my rights (legal in the word rifhts) I have less time to preach the word regarding eternal salvation.

I am enough Pentecostal to see my rights, but enough suffering servant to choose not to exercise rights at times. This Corinthians passage (starting several verses earlier than the verse quoted) helps some to understand. Not everyone gets this concept, and it is not something to fight over. If anything my mention (of this concept) is to bring peace where there is sometimes division.

Strange redneck
eddif

 

[Hospes]

Hospes,
We're lost in translation.
I was replying to what K2CHRIST said.
I know what fearing God means.
Taught kids what it means for years.

I might have misunderstood him - I though he meant actual fear.
If so, I'm sorry.

I do not FEAR God
I LOVE God.

So what is fear in relation to God?
It's respect, it's God's wisdom for our lives, it's a healthy knowing that He is right.
Fear of the Lord saves us from much grief.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom.
Psalms 111:10

Wondering

W,
I agree there is a fear that is not good and there is a fear that is essential. John tells us

...By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. (1 John 4:17-18 ESV)​

So the not-good fear is a born-again believer's fear of punishment. On the other hand I cannot imagine a person knowing and valuing God without fearing him in other ways.

If God really is the one who a person values and esteems infinitely above all else, then that person will walk with a constant consuming concern - i.e. fear - of what God's opinion is of everything. I think this is at least in part what it means to "...work out your salvation with fear and trembling..." A fear like this would lead a person to never say "God is my co-pilot" or "It's okay to angrily tell God all you think he has done wrong."

I once stood within touching distance of a motor that was about 4 feet in diameter and rotating at high speed. I remember the sense of uneasiness to be next to such power. (Being an engineer, I am aware to some degree of the huge forces involved in such a mass moving at high speed.) I think such uneasiness - i.e. fear - is another healthy way of fearing my God. When I think of the degree of his power, I long to feel the uneasiness of it while knowing I am safe.

Much of the glibness and silliness of western Christianity would dissipate if we had a healthy fear of God. Our faith would be a very serious, yet joyful, pursuit of the Holy.

where have you been?

Between home life and church life I have had very little time to be on the forum. I do check in often and read, but avoid getting to much dialog going.

 

[K2CHRIST]

So the not-good fear is a born-again believer's fear of punishment. On the other hand I cannot imagine a person knowing and valuing God without fearing him in other ways.

While it is important to understand the aspect of fearing God in ways that give us a respect and honor for God, Never-the-less there is also and importance behind fearing God for punishment! It's just like a child having some fear of a father that cares enough to correct them, and even by "punishment" if needed. And that is for the believer. For the non-believer, and in order to help them rethink their position, God provided and advertised a place called hell. Jesus preached hell more than anyone in the Scriptures.

Jesus preached a message that strongly encouraged people to turn to God, and much of it was in the category of turn to God or else! And Judas, one of Jesus disciples who clearly heard his message got the "or else".

Now Jesus is fully God and God is love. So a message of "or else" that should provoke a fear of God is a loving message!! And it is a message God brings to His disciples also! Indeed a loving God punishes people!! That message should not be lost.!

Gen 4:13 Cain said to the LORD, "My punishment is more than I can beat."

And don't think that is for others than the children of God.

Num 14:18 The LORD is slow to anger, abounding in love and forgiving sin and rebellion. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished,; he punishes the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and forth generation.

That it may not seem fair to punish the children for the sin of the fathers, but punishment is often used to make sure we don't fall back into sinful ways! Making sure people don't turn back into sin is a loving way to help, even if the help brings some discomfort. So the children can be punished, and you might be punished by God (even though you are like a child to Him) even for sins your fathers before you made, and that so you remember to sin no more. That is a good thing!

2 Sam 7:14 I will be his father, and he will be my son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with the rod of men, with floggings inflicted by men.

When someone does wrong today, they might wind up in jail. Don't believe that God is not behind that also. He made all things, and has reasons for what He planned. So we believers need to have a fear of God that includes a fear of being punished by God!!! And that is a good thing!!

 

[K2CHRIST]

...By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. (1 John 4:17-18 ESV)

I should probably address this verse provided above.

James 1:4 Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.

There is a Christian bumper sticker I like that say something about "A work in progress". If we don't understand that God is working on us, teaching us, and maturing us, then we might reach a wrong conclusion about what John was saying.

When we are close to the Lord, so following the Lord and doing what He says, there is no fear in us. All you feel is the love of God and not the fear of God because you feel that He is pleased with you. But we are like sheep and go astray. We need to have a bit of fear then and I am not talking about a respect or honor! We need to understand the God does punish rebellion!! So I am plainly talking about a fear of punishment, that can and will be used to mature a child, and we believers are his children.

This fear of punishment from God is preached and discussed over and over in the Bible. An actual fear of God if you wish.

Heb 2:1,2 We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. For is the message spoken by angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation?

That message was from the New Testament and was written to believers, and it was a message of fearing God (actually fearing God and not just a respect thing) because He punishes people!!! He even punishes believers who fall away!!

So perhaps people don't see it when they are close to Him, but they had better know about it for the times they are not! And we are like sheep who have all gone astray!

Is 53:06 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way:

And frankly we tend to do that to some extent regularly. We get busy at work and forget to talk to the Lord. We get upset at a driver that cuts us off, even if we are good at staying calm in those situation. We think about the things we want instead of only about the things He wants. Of course God is a loving and kind God, but we need to remember that He also will punish us if we do get upset and cause problems with the driver that cuts us off, or if we only go after our wants and don't consider the homeless and hungry man, or even if we get so busy we don't have time for Him anymore. The actual fear of God will help you remember!

 

[GodsGrace]

W,
I agree there is a fear that is not good and there is a fear that is essential. John tells us

...By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. (1 John 4:17-18 ESV)​

So the not-good fear is a born-again believer's fear of punishment. On the other hand I cannot imagine a person knowing and valuing God without fearing him in other ways.

If God really is the one who a person values and esteems infinitely above all else, then that person will walk with a constant consuming concern - i.e. fear - of what God's opinion is of everything. I think this is at least in part what it means to "...work out your salvation with fear and trembling..." A fear like this would lead a person to never say "God is my co-pilot" or "It's okay to angrily tell God all you think he has done wrong."

I once stood within touching distance of a motor that was about 4 feet in diameter and rotating at high speed. I remember the sense of uneasiness to be next to such power. (Being an engineer, I am aware to some degree of the huge forces involved in such a mass moving at high speed.) I think such uneasiness - i.e. fear - is another healthy way of fearing my God. When I think of the degree of his power, I long to feel the uneasiness of it while knowing I am safe.

Much of the glibness and silliness of western Christianity would dissipate if we had a healthy fear of God. Our faith would be a very serious, yet joyful, pursuit of the Holy.

Between home life and church life I have had very little time to be on the forum. I do check in often and read, but avoid getting to much dialog going.

Hi Hospes,
I agree with all. You've hit the nail on the head.

I like this:
There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. (1 John 4:17-18 ESV)

And this:
If God really is the one who a person values and esteems infinitely above all else, then that person will walk with a constant consuming concern - i.e. fear - of what God's opinion is of everything.

I would just like to make these two comments.

When I was learning about God, we were taught through fear. I remember the cover of the catechism book we used - it was of a man in flames, covering his face in torment. It was many years before I understood that God loves His creation.

Then I taught kids till recently. The fear of God always came up when teaching about heaven, hell, sins, confession, etc. But the MAIN idea that had to be given to the kids was that God loves them and wants a relationship with them.

It's not an easy balance. Too much of one, too much of the other, causes problems.

The other idea I'd like to put forward comes from the Catholic Church. They ARE good at explaining SOME concepts!

There are two types of contrition. Imperfect and Perfect.

The Iimperfect will work because we are asking God's forgiveness, but it's done out of fear of punishment.

The Perfect contrition, or feeling of sorrowfulness will be because we love God and are sorry we hurt Him.

So yes, perfect love casts out fear
but a healthy dose of fear (the way you have described it) is not only good, it's necessary.

So, yes, we must work out our salvation in fear and trembling,
Philippians 2:12

Always knowing that God loves us.
1 John 4:16

And that He is always near us.
Philippians 1:6

Thanks for such a good explanation.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

I should probably address this verse provided above.

James 1:4 Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.

There is a Christian bumper sticker I like that say something about "A work in progress". If we don't understand that God is working on us, teaching us, and maturing us, then we might reach a wrong conclusion about what John was saying.

When we are close to the Lord, so following the Lord and doing what He says, there is no fear in us. All you feel is the love of God and not the fear of God because you feel that He is pleased with you. But we are like sheep and go astray. We need to have a bit of fear then and I am not talking about a respect or honor! We need to understand the God does punish rebellion!! So I am plainly talking about a fear of punishment, that can and will be used to mature a child, and we believers are his children.

This fear of punishment from God is preached and discussed over and over in the Bible. An actual fear of God if you wish.

Heb 2:1,2 We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. For is the message spoken by angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation?

That message was from the New Testament and was written to believers, and it was a message of fearing God (actually fearing God and not just a respect thing) because He punishes people!!! He even punishes believers who fall away!!

So perhaps people don't see it when they are close to Him, but they had better know about it for the times they are not! And we are like sheep who have all gone astray!

Is 53:06 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way:

And frankly we tend to do that to some extent regularly. We get busy at work and forget to talk to the Lord. We get upset at a driver that cuts us off, even if we are good at staying calm in those situation. We think about the things we want instead of only about the things He wants. Of course God is a loving and kind God, but we need to remember that He also will punish us if we do get upset and cause problems with the driver that cuts us off, or if we only go after our wants and don't consider the homeless and hungry man, or even if we get so busy we don't have time for Him anymore. The actual fear of God will help you remember!

The above is rather confusing.

First I don't believe Jesus taught fear. He taught us to love God.
The fear He was teaching was more like a warning.
Jesus was trying to teach us how to please God, how to live the way God
would want us to.

You make God sound like He's standing over us, threatening us with hell at each move.
Then where does Jesus come in?
Am I saved or not?
Do I lose my salvation and risk hell every time I sin?

This is what your post sounds like to me.
I'm pretty sure this is not what you mean.

I do agree that a healthy fear of God is a good thing.
A HEALTHY fear of God.

Wondering

 

[Hospes]

I should probably address this verse provided above.

James 1:4 Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.

There is a Christian bumper sticker I like that say something about "A work in progress". If we don't understand that God is working on us, teaching us, and maturing us, then we might reach a wrong conclusion about what John was saying.

When we are close to the Lord, so following the Lord and doing what He says, there is no fear in us. All you feel is the love of God and not the fear of God because you feel that He is pleased with you. But we are like sheep and go astray. We need to have a bit of fear then and I am not talking about a respect or honor! We need to understand the God does punish rebellion!! So I am plainly talking about a fear of punishment, that can and will be used to mature a child, and we believers are his children.

This fear of punishment from God is preached and discussed over and over in the Bible. An actual fear of God if you wish.

Heb 2:1,2 We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. For is the message spoken by angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation?

That message was from the New Testament and was written to believers, and it was a message of fearing God (actually fearing God and not just a respect thing) because He punishes people!!! He even punishes believers who fall away!!

So perhaps people don't see it when they are close to Him, but they had better know about it for the times they are not! And we are like sheep who have all gone astray!

Is 53:06 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way:

And frankly we tend to do that to some extent regularly. We get busy at work and forget to talk to the Lord. We get upset at a driver that cuts us off, even if we are good at staying calm in those situation. We think about the things we want instead of only about the things He wants. Of course God is a loving and kind God, but we need to remember that He also will punish us if we do get upset and cause problems with the driver that cuts us off, or if we only go after our wants and don't consider the homeless and hungry man, or even if we get so busy we don't have time for Him anymore. The actual fear of God will help you remember!

I think you are correct in that God does discipline his children, but the punishment mentioned in John's writing is the punishment at "the day of judgment." So I think we agree that a believer needs to keep in mind that God does discipline his children and and it can be severe.

The punishment the elect need not fear is the punishment coming to many on the day of judgement. This makes sense to me in that it seems impossible to me that a person can simultaneously have faith Jesus took upon Himself their sin - and God's wrath for their sin - and yet fear they face God's wrath at the judgement.

 

[Brother Mike]

I Corinthians 9:12
If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.

We have a lot of dominion rights that we may choose not to take advantage of.

Not take advantage of rights? Choose to suffer instead of prosper? Why yes. If I spend all my time getting my rights (legal in the word rifhts) I have less time to preach the word regarding eternal salvation.

I am enough Pentecostal to see my rights, but enough suffering servant to choose not to exercise rights at times. This Corinthians passage (starting several verses earlier than the verse quoted) helps some to understand. Not everyone gets this concept, and it is not something to fight over. If anything my mention (of this concept) is to bring peace where there is sometimes division.

Strange redneck
eddif

What is Pentecostal enough to see my rights? It's funny in a way, but it should be your word minded enough to see your rights. It's written Jesus opened not his mouth, He forgone any rights. Paul on the other hand captured by Rome and was about to get beat said, wait a minute. Is it lawful, I am a Roman citizen. Paul knew his Citizenship rights and Paul opened his mouth.

Jesus kept his mouth closed, to make us citizens of Heaven and it's not lawful that the world weigh us, depress us, keep us sick and the devil does what He wants. We are not citizens of earth, we as children yes, are subject to the elements of this world, but as I have matured through the years, I have come to the conclusion there is not a force on this earth that can take you out and get you down without your own voluntary siding with Satan's will to destroy you and your quality of life.

We have immunity, we are ambassadors of Christ, not of this world, like Paul, we need to open our mouth and use the sword of the spirit and keep that armor in top shape.

The word suffer in the bible means to experience a expression, a passion, something different, a sensation. It can be good feelings or it can be a vexation. Something that causes you to experience something that is not the norm. It's how you deal with it, the good or bad, you can mess either one up.

We are told to resist and submit, there should not be any accepting of any suffering that would hinder our emotional and physical state to do what God called us to do at the full capacity that we can do it.

As for division, many should rejoice there is hope, but it requires a change of thinking and a higher level of trusting in the Lord God, valuing His word as true, and the rest of the world garbage.

Mike.