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[_ Old Earth _] Fine Tuning

Alpha Is Just the Beginning
any theory worthy of consideration does not merely reproduce observations; it must make novel predictions. The above theory suggests that varying the fine-structure constant makes objects fall differently. Galileo predicted that bodies in a vacuum fall at the same rate no matter what they are made of—an idea known as the weak equivalence principle, famously demonstrated when Apollo 15 astronaut David Scott dropped a feather and a hammer and saw them hit the lunar dirt at the same time. But if (a) varies, that principle no longer holds exactly. The variations generate a force on all charged particles. The more protons an atom has in its nucleus, the more strongly it will feel this force. If our quasar observations are correct, then the accelerations of different materials differ by about one part in 1014—too small to see in the laboratory by a factor of about 100 but large enough to show up in planned missions such as STEP (spacebased test of the equivalence principle). There is a last twist to the story. Previous studies of (a) neglected to include one vital consideration: the lumpiness of the universe. Like all galaxies, our Milky Way is about a million times denser than the cosmic average, so it is not expanding along with the universe. In 2003 Barrow and David F. Mota of Cambridge calculated that (a) may behave differently within the galaxy than inside emptier regions of space. Once a young galaxy condenses and relaxes into gravitational equilibrium, (a) nearly stops changing inside it but keeps on changing outside. Thus, the terrestrial experiments that probe the constancy of (a)suffer from a selection bias. We need to study this effect more to see how it would affect the tests of the weak equivalence principle. No spatial variations of (a)have yet been seen. Based on the uniformity of the cosmic microwave background radiation,
Barrow recently showed that (a) does not vary by more than one part in 108 between regions separated by 10 degrees on the sky. So where does this flurry of activity leave science as far as (a)is concerned? We await new data and new analyses to confirm or disprove that (a)varies at the level claimed. Researchers focus on (a), over the other constants of nature, simply because its effects are more readily seen. If(a) is susceptible to change, however, other constants should vary as well, making the inner workings of nature more fickle than scientists ever suspected. The constants are a tantalizing mystery. Every equation of physics is filled with them, and they seem so prosaic that people tend to forget how unaccountable their values are. Their origin is bound up with some of the grandest questions of modern science, from the unification of physics to the expansion of the universe. They may be the superficial shadow of a structure larger and more complex than the three-dimensional universe we witness around us. Determining whether constants are truly constant is only the first step on a path that leads to a deeper and wider appreciation of that ultimate vista./


Check it out and tell me what you think. I was going to add a few thoughts, but company just walked in so I can come back later and discuss...
 
lord we arguing what is the constant of the universe. there is no answer to that.

Oh, we're not arguing about it. It's relevant to the thread. The constants of the universe has everything to do with fine tuning and the continuation of the universe day by day. This new information was a huge discovery and set the physics world on it's ear. For many years, all of these things were taken as granted, and as established facts, and the realization that they are not constant has more importance and bearing that you realize.

You just haven't thought it through there brother... :wink
 
Oh, we're not arguing about it. It's relevant to the thread. The constants of the universe has everything to do with fine tuning and the continuation of the universe day by day. This new information was a huge discovery and set the physics world on it's ear. For many years, all of these things were taken as granted, and as established facts, and the realization that they are not constant has more importance and bearing that you realize.

You just haven't thought it through there brother... :wink
you have never watch star trek:tng that is a question the computer was asked and couldn't answer.nor cdr data.
 
Ok. There is no infinity (they used to say/still saying?) that we live in an infinite universe, without boundries. Now they know that's not the case, we have limits on size, both in the macrocosm and the microcosm,
These were rather ancient ideas, and it is only because of modern cosmology that we have started to learn about these things more.

the speed of light is not constant,
The speed of light is constant in a vacuum, that is the constant that physicists refer to. Of course in the universe the speed of light can be altered by gravity.

laws of physics change, depending on if someone is observing or not. and some others.
This seems to go into Quantum Mechanics which is still so unknown and contentious within the scientific community that I can't really form an opinion on the matter.

I tell you what, this has been written up about in a scientific journal, which you hold in high regard, so I will copy/paste it for you here and let you read the article for yourself, which details a lot of it. If for some reson the mods don't like that, I'd be happy to send it to you in it's entirety as a file through e-mail, ok?

This was taken from Scientific American, some years back. I'm pretty sure there is no copyright, so I'll go ahead and post it.:
Do you have a link to the source link, I would like to reference their sources and see if there have been any responses from other scientists.

Thanks!
 
Alpha Is Just the Beginning
any theory worthy of consideration does not merely reproduce observations; it must make novel predictions. The above theory suggests that varying the fine-structure constant makes objects fall differently. Galileo predicted that bodies in a vacuum fall at the same rate no matter what they are made of—an idea known as the weak equivalence principle, famously demonstrated when Apollo 15 astronaut David Scott dropped a feather and a hammer and saw them hit the lunar dirt at the same time. But if (a) varies, that principle no longer holds exactly. The variations generate a force on all charged particles. The more protons an atom has in its nucleus, the more strongly it will feel this force. If our quasar observations are correct, then the accelerations of different materials differ by about one part in 1014—too small to see in the laboratory by a factor of about 100 but large enough to show up in planned missions such as STEP (spacebased test of the equivalence principle). There is a last twist to the story. Previous studies of (a) neglected to include one vital consideration: the lumpiness of the universe. Like all galaxies, our Milky Way is about a million times denser than the cosmic average, so it is not expanding along with the universe. In 2003 Barrow and David F. Mota of Cambridge calculated that (a) may behave differently within the galaxy than inside emptier regions of space. Once a young galaxy condenses and relaxes into gravitational equilibrium, (a) nearly stops changing inside it but keeps on changing outside. Thus, the terrestrial experiments that probe the constancy of (a)suffer from a selection bias. We need to study this effect more to see how it would affect the tests of the weak equivalence principle. No spatial variations of (a)have yet been seen. Based on the uniformity of the cosmic microwave background radiation,
Barrow recently showed that (a) does not vary by more than one part in 108 between regions separated by 10 degrees on the sky. So where does this flurry of activity leave science as far as (a)is concerned? We await new data and new analyses to confirm or disprove that (a)varies at the level claimed. Researchers focus on (a), over the other constants of nature, simply because its effects are more readily seen. If(a) is susceptible to change, however, other constants should vary as well, making the inner workings of nature more fickle than scientists ever suspected. The constants are a tantalizing mystery. Every equation of physics is filled with them, and they seem so prosaic that people tend to forget how unaccountable their values are. Their origin is bound up with some of the grandest questions of modern science, from the unification of physics to the expansion of the universe. They may be the superficial shadow of a structure larger and more complex than the three-dimensional universe we witness around us. Determining whether constants are truly constant is only the first step on a path that leads to a deeper and wider appreciation of that ultimate vista./


Check it out and tell me what you think. I was going to add a few thoughts, but company just walked in so I can come back later and discuss...
It seems that their entire theory resides off of their Quasar observations, and if String Theory is true. Much of this is theoretical physics and will continue to be developed and clarified as the years come, so I would be more cautious to make large claims like science classes teach lies. Universal constants generally are constant, and while there might be some variation within the universe, I don't think that changes too much.

I am not a theoretical physicist, but this is the kind of science I would speak less confidently about, given the scale and lack of knowledge that we still have.
 
These were rather ancient ideas, and it is only because of modern cosmology that we have started to learn about these things more.


The speed of light is constant in a vacuum, that is the constant that physicists refer to. Of course in the universe the speed of light can be altered by gravity.


This seems to go into Quantum Mechanics which is still so unknown and contentious within the scientific community that I can't really form an opinion on the matter.


Do you have a link to the source link, I would like to reference their sources and see if there have been any responses from other scientists. There's actually more to the article too, there's pictures and footnotes and stuff.

Thanks!


No I don't have the link anymore. I got this quite awhile back. You should be able to find it online if you google it and search around. That's how I found it and then downloaded it. It was a 2005 (?) Scientific American article)
 
What was the question?
what is the nature of the universe and what is the constant of the universe was often stated.

after I logged off I remember the question, so It was what is the nature of the universe or something like that.
 
what is the nature of the universe and what is the constant of the universe was often stated.

after I logged off I remember the question, so It was what is the nature of the universe or something like that.

From what I understand, it's plasma energy. They used to think that space was an empty vacuum, but they know better now.
 
From what I understand, it's plasma energy. They used to think that space was an empty vacuum, but they know better now.
plasma? that takes heat,and energy. its still a vaccum, but not a full vaccum. lightning is plasma.
 
plasma? that takes heat,and energy. its still a vaccum, but not a full vaccum. lightning is plasma.

That's what they're saying now...

  1. The universe is made of up of space plasma. Plasma is the word given to the fourth state of matter (solid, liquid, gas, plasma). A plasma is a gas that is so hot that some or all its constituent atoms are split up into electrons and ions, which can move independently of each other./
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/mssl/space-plasma-physics/plasma-science
 
oh they have said that for years. google bussard ram scoop and what that does and its on star trek on the warp engines its the red front of the warp engines. it takes from the free floating elements in the galaxy. I know what plasma is, but its still a vaccum out there. there is no pressure in space like we need to live.
 
That's what they're saying now...

  1. The universe is made of up of space plasma. Plasma is the word given to the fourth state of matter (solid, liquid, gas, plasma). A plasma is a gas that is so hot that some or all its constituent atoms are split up into electrons and ions, which can move independently of each other./
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/mssl/space-plasma-physics/plasma-science
Wait a moment, are you saying that what is understood as the vacuum of space is actually plasma?
 
That does seem to be what they're saying.
Okay, I guess I agree with this in part. Space is a vaccum, but not a perfect vaccum as there is some astrophysical plasma throughout, but such an extremely low density that it is in effect a vacuum.

This makes sense given the early composition of the universe.
 
:thudYou agree? :thud :biggrin2

It does make sense to me. Everything seems to be energy. At first one may not think so, but it is. Like a piece of wood, you set it on fire and it releases the energy. They say that we can't create or destroy energy, but we can convert it or transfer it. Set some wood on fire, the energy is released and transfers to the atmosphere. Like that. Everything will burn if you get it hot enough. Even scripture and the scientists both say that the universe is headed towards a heat death. It'll all be burned up.

Pretty cool huh?
 
:thudYou agree? :thud :biggrin2

It does make sense to me. Everything seems to be energy. At first one may not think so, but it is. Like a piece of wood, you set it on fire and it releases the energy. They say that we can't create or destroy energy, but we can convert it or transfer it. Set some wood on fire, the energy is released and transfers to the atmosphere. Like that. Everything will burn if you get it hot enough. Even scripture and the scientists both say that the universe is headed towards a heat death. It'll all be burned up.

Pretty cool huh?
Most scientists actually believe that it would be cold death, but I would that is of course speculation, nor do I think you and I believe that this will come to pass either way.

Do you think the entire universe will be destroyed? It would only be hot enough if the universe collapsed in on itself due to gravity, but all our observations are pointing to stars moving faster and faster apart.
 
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