'Flogging' isn't old-fashioned

[Classik]

'Spanking' isn't old-fashioned

When last did you spank your child? Maybe you are afraid he could hate you or phone up the police,
Or maybe he'd love the other parent more.

I pity our parents who over-pamper their children. How long will you follow your child's dictate? I do not believe a parent must be ๆservileๆ in order to make a child love him/her.

You ํspankํ whom you love in order to ่correct่.

Proverbs 22:6 NKJV ํ

6 Train up a child in the way he should go,

And when he is old he will not depart from it.




Our children today are getting naughtier and naughtier all Because we refused to show them the other side of love, that is, spanking them - in order to bring them back to their senses.

Proverbs 23:13 NKJV ํ
13 Do not withhold correction from a child,

For if you beat him with a rod, he will not die.




Parents are not always to blame. Our government is guilty too.
Today you spank a child and the next minute he phones up the police - and they could get you arrested.

Let me see that government that will stop me from doing a Godly thing towards them.

You give a kid some advice and he looks at you and boldy says, 'I'm not gonna do that!' Go get a cane!!! and spank him mercilessly. He won't die. You have done it in love. If we don't apply strict measures (and not necessarily spanking) we would end up breeding a corrupt generation!

Children are the leaders of tomorrow.

Show them you Really love them. It could involve spanking them or punishing them. But do not be cruel towards them.

 

[handy]

If I'm remembering correctly, Classik, you're from a different language culture back ground.

Here in the states, flogging almost always means beating with a whip and would be considered illegal child abuse in pretty much every state of the Union.

Change "flogging" to "spanking" and I'm on board with you. I was spanked as a child, my brother and my sisters were spanked as kids, all my nieces and nephews were spanked, my kids were spanked...and guess what...all the kids love their parents and nobody was ever any particular trouble. About the worst was my brother...but I think the gang of druggies he started hanging out with was far more detrimental to him than any spankings he got as a kid.

 

[Classik]

Yes, handy. 'Spanking' - in order not to give kids a heartattack! I will do it right away.
I am glad some People still flog today (although very few). My dad was an expert! We never ever misbehaved before him. Today I live to appreciate what he did to us

 

[Rhea]

Whta happened to the "spanking" version of this thread? I wrote a huge long reply and it appears to be deleted rather than merged (or copied to here)? Am I overlooking it out there somewhere?

 

[Rhea]

Re: 'Spanking' isn't old-fashioned

okay - I tried to re-create my original post on the request of Classik. This one is not as good as what I wrote with initial reaction, sorry. But here's the gist.

Just a note here - this is not something about which I am passionate. So these comments are merely discussion. My parents spanked us (quite violently at times) and I turned out okay (aside from being an atheist). But I think the method is not terribly effective and causes other problems that are not worth owning. If you're hoping to debate a frothing anti-spanker, I am not your gal. If you start frothing, I don't care enough about the topic to continue, so I'll just step away. That said, I think there are some relevant differing viewpoints on the issue that are interesting to contemplate.

When last did you spank your child? Maybe you are afraid he could hate you or phone up the police,
Or maybe he'd love the other parent more.

Or maybe you did not want to teach your child that inflicting physical pain is what you do when you need someone's attention or things are not going your way. I think spanking is a very confusing message for children. You're not doing what I want, so I will strike you with my hand or a rod or some tool, and your physical pain is my love.

I pity our parents who over-pamper their children. How long will you follow your child's dictate? I do not believe a parent must be ๆservileๆ in order to make a child love him/her.

I think it is fairly easy to use something besides spanking and not be servile.

6 Train up a child in the way he should go,

And when he is old he will not depart from it.

But is using physical force when one is not getting one's desires the way you want your child to go? I don't want to train them to do that. I would very much like them to depart from that.

Our children today are getting naughtier and naughtier all Because we refused to show them the other side of love, that is, spanking them - in order to bring them back to their senses.

It's my experience that what makes children naughtier and naughtier is the parents not wanting to take the time to parent. I have seen spanked children and non-spanked children who behave well. In those cases, the parents take the time to be face-to-face with the child. Take the time to be a parent, to teach, to explain, to correct. I ahve seen both spanked and non-spanked children be little monsters. And in those cases I see parents who do not take time to connect and talk - spank! Do better! - and turn back to their adult pursuits.

Parents are not always to blame. Our government is guilty too.
Today you spank a child and the next minute he phones up the police - and they could get you arrested.

Let me see that government that will stop me from doing a Godly thing towards them.

This seems like an exaggeration. It is very VERY rare that anything comes from such a complaint. Very rare that they are even made. In many more cases, the spanking which go far beyond spanking are never interfered, never reported.

The government does not have anything much to do with this.

You give a kid some advice and he looks at you and boldy says, 'I'm not gonna do that!' Go get a cane!!!

Or, get right into a conversation with them and say, "I'm so sorry you are having trouble acting correctly. I will have to hold you right here by my side so that you do not trouble others around you. And next time, I had better not bring you because you are disruptive. When you realize that being polite is required in society, then you will be ready to come back out."

And then follow up at home with discussion to help the child understand what would happen in their own world if the behavior they exhibited was "okay". It is a life-long process, don't think I'm spinning out a platitude. Remember I said above the problems come when parents think there is a quick fix (like a spanking, I would say!) There is no quick fix. You spend your life teaching your children, not dictating to them - teaching them. Children are not bad, they are unfinished. Help them get finished. Teach, don't punish, IMHO.

and spank him mercilessly. He won't die. You have done it in love. [...]
Show them you Really love them. [...] But do not be cruel towards them.

I don't see how "mercilessly" fits with love or not being cruel.

 

[handy]

You share some good thoughts, Rhea, thoughts most Christians do take into consideration in regards to spanking.

In our house spankings were the consequenses for serious misbehavior, which I've always called the Three D's: Disrespect, Destruction, Danger...

Danger...mainly when they were very young...for my two each of them were spanked when they went out into the fields when the cows were in heat and bull fights were common. My son also received spankings for playing with matches and playing with the fireplace. It was imperative that they stop this behavior and at 3.5 and 4, they were still too little for a lot of conversation about it. However, this was the first "D" they grew out of the need for spankings.

Destruction...this is my son's biggie. He's recieved almost all of the few spankings he's had because of his destructive tendencies. I can't tell you the crazy thing that kid has done just out of sheer thoughtless destruction. We talk things over with him, but then when he does it again, he would get a spanking. This would be things like: cutting into my table with a fork after I just took his knife away from him for cutting into my table...that sort of thing. He's not malicious, he just needed that extra consequence to curb his destructive tendencies.

Disrespect...the biggie with my daughter. I've always said, my son gets into trouble for what he does, my daughter gets into trouble for what she says. She can be sooo disrespectful. She also received far, far more spankings than my son ever has or ever will get...actually neither of them receive any spankings anymore...they've outgrown the need for that type of discipline.

I used to be in early childhood education and I've worked with literally hundreds of children. There are some kids who will never, ever need a spanking and probably getting one would be harmful because their little spirits are so gentle. Most kids could use a spanking at times when they're little...up to around 6 or so. Some kids, and my lovely daughter was one of them, get more spankings. But, when spankings are done for the right reasons and with the right kind of emphasis (I agree that "mercilessly" is overboard, but I'm willing to bet there is something lost in the translation here as well as with flogging) spanking can be a very effective tool for discipline in young children.

 

[Classik]

When last did you spank your child? Maybe you are afraid he could hate you or phone up the police,

Or maybe he'd love the other parent more.

Or maybe you did not want to teach your child that inflicting physical pain is what you do when you need someone's attention or things are not going your way. I think spanking is a very confusing message for children. You're not doing what I want, so I will strike you with my hand or a rod or some tool, and your physical pain is my love.

Thanks Rhea for posting again.
Spanking doesn't work for all children. In this case parents ought to be very careful. My intention here (and throughout the thread) is to correct our impression that all about Spanking a child is sheer wickedness. Spanking Still belongs to the modern world. And like I said before, Spanking does not work for all children. Some children need mere words to change them. Some need Spanking - not murder attempt in the name of spanking.

I have witnessed wicked measures where parents starve their children in the name of punishing them.
I believe Spanking is only necessary only when 'very necessary' and just like handy has said:

In our house spankings were the consequenses for serious misbehavior

Yes handy!
And Rhea, spanking can be a very confusing message to children when we miss to apply it at the right time and way. If a kid commits handy's offence (I guess handy has got a theory named after the inventor handy - handy's three D's theory or HTD ) that child should be punished immediately.
Take for instance, if a hand's offence involves a child inserting a blade in her mouth, your instant attitude is to take it away from her. I suggest you spank her immediately and not after when she must have forgotten what she did. The child will always remember there is Something very wrong with using blades in the mouth (that is when you use harsh measures). She won't repeat that dangerous act. You can see that in this case handy's theory is verified, applicable and accepted.
It is always wrong to spank that child later. She does not know why you are even doing it.
-----------------------------------------------------------
A child did Something bad and the father spanked her some days after:
She witnessed the father returning from work and went to welcome him. The father remembering what she did the other time (the mother already told her father) immediately spanked her.
She cried and fled. Days after the child never went as usual to welcome the father from work all the time he came home. All other kids went. This child always ran away.
The parents were confused and worried about her strange and sudden behaviour.
It was later that they realised what they did, (i.e., spanking the child at the wrong time.). so the child had thought it was wrong welcoming the father from work and had always ran away in order not to receiver another spanking.
It took time to correct that problem.
That is were spanking could be confusing to children.


------------------------------------------------------------

I pity our parents who over-pamper their children. How long will you follow your child's dictate? I do not believe a parent must be ๆservileๆ in order to make a child love him/her.

I think it is fairly easy to use something besides spanking and not be servile.

6 Train up a child in the way he should go,

And when he is old he will not depart from it. But is using physical force when one is not getting one's desires the way you want your child to go? I don't want to train them to do that. I would very much like them to depart from that.

Yes! And thanks for the points. I did not deliberately avoid them. That verse does not talk about physical force or harsh corrections alone. We simply need the right measures. The ways could be pray for that kid, spank the kid to correct, teach her the word of God, teach her the moral life, etc.

Our children today are getting naughtier and naughtier all Because we refused to show them the other side of love, that is, spanking them - in order to bring them back to their senses.

It's my experience that what makes children naughtier and naughtier is the parents not wanting to take the time to parent. I have seen spanked children and non-spanked children who behave well. In those cases, the parents take the time to be face-to-face with the child. Take the time to be a parent, to teach, to explain, to correct. I ahve seen both spanked and non-spanked children be little monsters. And in those cases I see parents who do not take time to connect and talk - spank! Do better! - and turn back to their adult pursuits.

This goes to the People who think it is always wrong to spank our kids. I like your respons here, Rhea.
Parents have a lot to do, and parenting is not only spanking them to correct them.
So for our People who condemn it entirely - spanking is not completely wrong.

Parents are not always to blame. Our government is guilty too.

Today you spank a child and the next minute he phones up the police - and they could get you arrested.


Let me see that government that will stop me from doing a Godly thing towards them.

This seems like an exaggeration. It is very VERY rare that anything comes from such a complaint. Very rare that they are even made. In many more cases, the spanking which go far beyond spanking are never interfered, never reported.

The government does not have anything much to do with this.

I'm not exaggerating here. I have witnessed this in schools. (The punishment must not be spanking: asking a kid to kneel for a short duration is not evil, asking a child to stand is not bad) Teachers are warned not to spank ( or better put punish) little ones. No sane teacher does a gruesome spanking. No sane teacher spanks using branches of a tree. The truth is that no parent wants his or her child to weep outside (although some parents appreciate having their little ones corrected in love). The problem is that these parents are trouble-makers who are ready to sue you for your kind correction.
I have witnessed it in our homes too.
Ones a child screams (and we know how good they scream even when nothing has happened) he or she alerts the neighbors. The neighbors think something horrible is taking place. What next? What do the neighbors do? 911.
At a point in my area the government and their intervention sets in.

You give a kid some advice and he looks at you and boldy says, 'I'm not gonna do that!' Go get a cane!!!

Or, get right into a conversation with them and say, "I'm so sorry you are having trouble acting correctly. I will have to hold you right here by myside so that you do not trouble others around you. And next time, I had better not bring you because you are disruptive. When you realize that being polite is required in society, then you will be ready to come back out."

And then follow up at home with discussion to help the child understand what would happen in their own world if the behavior they exhibited was "okay". It is a life-long process, don't think I'm spinning out a platitude. Remember I said above the problems come when parents think there is a quick fix (like a spanking, I would say!)There is no quick fix. You spend your life teaching your children, not dictating to them - teaching them. Children are not bad, they are unfinished. Help them get finished. Teach, don't punish, IMHO.

Yes Rhea! Genius! Adopted.
I remember my neighbor has used this to solve a huge problem between her and the child and at last the child obeyed.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
And for extreme cases where a child would not hear...may God help
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

and spank him mercilessly. He won't die. You have done it in love.

Show them you Really love them. But do not be cruel towards them.

I don't see how "mercilessly" fits with love or not being cruel.

The impression People could get here is, a parent uses chisel, hammer, crowbar, and mercilessly deals with... .
This is not my intention. Some children are good at crying and pleading before spanking takes place. A parent could decide to leave them. The next day they'd do another, and when they see you raise your hand to spank them : 'I'm sorry dad...forgive me mom...I promise to be like Moses of the bible and like timothy and like...
Ignore every plea - this is what I mean by 'mercilessly' - the spanking takes place - and in love

© HTD references from handy's three D's theory or HTD/H3D - to avoid landing me in jail - for the sake of plagiarism

 

[Rhea]

And Rhea, spanking can be a very confusing message to children when we miss to apply it at the right time and way.

Is there a "right" way to show a child that physical pain on another is a good plan for getting our way? I think the spanking is confusing even if it is done right away.

So for our People who condemn it entirely - spanking is not completely wrong.

From what I wrote, spanking could still be completely wrong. My observation was that it didn';t matter if you spanked or not, the behavior did not change from the spanking. It changes from the attention of the parent to teaching the child with face and words.

And then follow up at home with discussion to help the child understand what would happen in their own world if the behavior they exhibited was "okay". It is a life-long process,

I remember my neighbor has used this to solve a huge problem between her and the child and at last the child obeyed.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
And for extreme cases where a child would not hear...may God help
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

In my experience, if the child will not hear - stop and look at the child and try to figure out what they don't get. We adults are often quite arrogant about assuming what the child is thinking. If they aren't getting it, figure out their point of view and re-frame the lesson so that it is understandable. I liken this to finding someone who doesn't understand you and just speaking louder instead of discovering that they don't speak the same language.

Funny anecdote, I was traveling with a friend who had been power-learning french for a year. As we traveled in France, she was sometimes frustrated by the french replying in English - as if her french was not good enough (some even said, "oh no, we had better use english."). We stopped at one place in the Principality of Andorra and she got the same treatment again. The clerk said, "can we speak in English, please?" My friend, sad at her efforts, asked, "is my french *THAT* bad?" and unlike the other times, this time the answer was, "I'm sorry ma'am. I don't speak any french." The clerk spoke only English, Spanish and Catalan - not french. We all laughed upon discovering the

The same is very often true with children. They are thinking along a totally different line. And your correction is like a foreign language. It makes no sense so they ignore it. When you stop and ask them what THEY think is going on, you will so often get a clue as to the correct language to use.

Why did you choke your friend?
I DIDN'T choke him!
- - - now I have a choice. I can say, "yes you did! stop lying!" and spank for defiance OR I can ask, "why do you think HE thinks you did?" and then I get the answer, "maybe because I shoved his chest because he had his hands on my throat." (note this was not a situation of danger, this was a special-needs overreaction situation with two kids who are not physically capable of any real harm). This kind of thing happens all the time, "I didn;'t do that!" when you know they did. So ask what they think happened. It's enlightening. And instead of getting spanked and feeling misunderstood, the child comes to realize that it is indeed their own fault and they do need to fix the situation.

Some children are good at crying and pleading before spanking takes place. A parent could decide to leave them.

You will not be surprised to learn that if you do not spank, the child never plays the pain card. It is interesting to see wqhat they are willing to do to avoid your pain. The anticipated pain is already distracting from the lesson, just as a delay would be.

The next day they'd do another, and when they see you raise your hand to spank them : 'I'm sorry dad...forgive me mom...I promise to be like Moses of the bible and like timothy and like...
Ignore every plea - this is what I mean by 'mercilessly' - the spanking takes place - and in love

Ignore their plea in love. Still doesn't work for me. From a pragmatic standpoint, I mean. If they are pleading to avoid punishment, they are not thinking of their correct behavior, they are just trying to avoid pain. Instead, I *want* them to focus on their action. Instead of spankings, my kids have an apology book. And they must sit down and write in the book their understanding of the situation and what it resulted and how they should have changed it. Yes they want to avoid this! But their mind MUST dwell on their poor action before they can be done.

In the cases you have named, I don't see how spanking has accomplished something in the best way.

To train my children to stop, such as not go in the road, when they were too young to reason, I trained them to react without thinking. We played many times the game "red light - green light" and we used all the words a parent would use. "Stop!" "no!" "go ahead" "yes" "slow down" in addition to red, green and yellow. It was a game, but I did it on purpose many times. Told them it was training as well as a game. This helped a lot. Better, in my opinion, than a punishment that they would run from if they saw it coming. If I raise my hand and the child knows a spank is there, will the child STOP and stay with me? No! He will run even faster into the street. If I yell "red light!" he will stop, because he knows he canNOT win the game if he fails to stop, and he wants to win. He'll even turn to look at me to make sure of his "win".

I need to get into his head, not force him into mine. Mine's too complex for his little brain. But I should be smart enough to understand his, you know?

 

[Classik]

This is really Interesting, Rhea! That is a great heart and good heart and perfect measure you have towards the young ones.
Most People don't use physical punishment, some others apply it. At the end things turn better (or could go worse).
-----------------------------------------------------------
I am still worried about extreme cases where a child never hears a word.
I have a neighbor whose kid was a pain in the family. This kid did every terrible thing when he was growing. The father did everything to change him but could not succeed. He used canes, his belt, wood etc and the child did not change. He abandoned this measure and decided reasoning with him. It did not change anything. The father pleaded and trired to worship the kid - all to no avail.
This kid fought all day, beat other kids...until both school teachers and the rest of them began avoiding him.
At a point the father resolved to using more agonising measures. I remember when he used to lift the kid and cast him on the surface of the wall and watch him crash on the floor. I am serious. I am very serious about his father's cruel acts.
Despite hitting him on the wall and watching him ricocheted off the wall...the child didn't change. He grew worse. The parents had to ignore him (that was after People threatened to sue the father)

He is grown anyway! He is about 30yrs of age. He is no longer a kid.
I just saw him last week near our church. He never changed at all. I heard him barking at someone and trying to cause confusion. I hurriedly walked away
There are other kids like him

 

[turnorburn]

The Rod Of Correction

Remember when your using a rod of correction use just the rod never use anything connected to your person your hand is the worst thing a belt comes in second. You can simplify things by going to a hardware store buy a piece of doweling not large in diameter use common sense about 3 ft long will do that's what i used only had to use it 3 times twice on my oldest once on the youngest. Keep it in plain view better yet keep it in plain view and hang a shingle over it labeled "rod of correction" Totally biblical totally humane totally in love.

turnorburn

 

[Mike]

I'll give my usual two cents on this topic. My wife and I have always reserved spanking for two situations and only until our children were 5 or 6. We would spank when they were in danger and when they were purposefully disobedient. We determined that it was a waste of time to do it when they were simply impulsive or not in control of themselves.

If I told my son not to take something off the table, and he thought about it, looked at me and reached over to take it while looking right at me, I would CALMLY take nd spank him. And every time I did it, I would explain why I did it, hug him and tell him I loved him. If I felt like I was not in a good place (emotionally) I would walk away for a moment to gather myself and then spank him. Parents should NEVER spank their children when they are upset, except when their safety is in danger. It's too easy to go over the line when you're not in control.

In the end, they need to know why it happened and that they are loved.

 

[Zinc]

Re: 'Spanking' isn't old-fashioned

Or maybe you did not want to teach your child that inflicting physical pain is what you do when you need someone's attention or things are not going your way.

Is there a "right" way to show a child that physical pain on another is a good plan for getting our way? I think the spanking is confusing even if it is done right away.

This is the kind of confused thinking you regularly see from more liberal types. Another common mistake is, "If the state executes people then that is no better than the murderer".

Let's be clear about this: when you strike a child you do not teach them, "inflicting physical pain is what you do when you need someone's attention or things are not going your way".

What you teach them is that violence is a good thing when used as a punishment. (Which it is, so it's a good message to send.)

Another line you will see from liberals is that, "you can't go around hitting adults, so why children?".

Just liberal foolishness of course. The reason you can hit children (but not adults) is that parents/teachers have a role to play in correcting the bad behaviour of children. When children do things wrong, you mostly don't want to call in the police. The criminal justice system isn't designed for that in many cases. (Of course, if a child does something serious enough then the police can get involved.)

So justice issues with children/discipline of children, is carried out very much by parents.

On the adult level, when it comes to justice, one adult can not "discipline" another. It would be an illegal act of revenge or vigilantism. In the adult world, we transfer justice issues/punishments to the courts, and only the courts can hand out punishments.

You can't hit another adult. But then, you can't send an adult to their room either.

For an adult to be hit, it would have to be by sentence of a court. We no longer use that type of punishment in the West. But personally, I want to see flogging used again.

So yeah, anyway, one of the good things about hitting children, is that we are teaching them that--in the context of punishment--violence is a good thing. And that's a good message to send!