For something THIS important, why was "faith" used

[Ambient]

To christianity, the most important part of a person's life has to do with where they'll spend their eternal existence. Going with that thought, for something SO important as a person's eternal existence, it is obviously clear that having a person rely completely on the words written in a book, with no other evidences, is hardly the best plan! :-? If God really cared about EVERY single spirit within man, then I would think that a much better plan would have been used. To rely completely upon "word of mouth", text written down thousands of years ago, and with absolutely no way to confirm THIS religious writing over that of any other culture's religious beliefs, it seems clear that the plan was too easily set up for "failure". Many would never hear the message. Many would see it as just another religious sect. And if you were to ask any religious culture if they were right, they would say, "we sure are"! Occasionally, a person (being swayed by emotions) will move from one religious sect to another, perhaps back again.

I hope you can see my point here. With something SO important as eternity, this notion of "faith" is riddled with centuries and even several millennia of casualties. It should have been something obvious. IF it is SO important, there really shouldn't have ever been any contenders for the "this is the way to heaven" debate. Obviously, this is not the case, and it is man who will pay the price (if Christian doctrine is correct).

 

[ChristineES]

I think I understand what you are saying. I believe that these stories were word of mouth until they were written down. Y'shua didn't write about himself. Luke was not written by one of the apostles, but at least 30 years later after Y'shua died and rose again! (I am not 100% sure when the Gospels were written, so my years may be off). The same can be said of Genesis, which has been credited to Moses, Abraham was around long before Moses was born.

 

[cyberjosh]

To christianity, the most important part of a person's life has to do with where they'll spend their eternal existence. Going with that thought, for something SO important as a person's eternal existence, it is obviously clear that having a person rely completely on the words written in a book, with no other evidences, is hardly the best plan!

You misunderstand the meaning of faith and the power of the Word of God. The Bible is seen as foolishness to those who are not saved, but when you are given the Holy Spirit when you are saved, the words of the Bible give life, as the Spirit reveals to you its meaning and its power. That is why it it says in 1 Corinthians 1:18 "The word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." Faith is dynamic and is a life style, rather than just a belief system. Infact in the literal meaning of the Hebrew word for 'faith' and the theological use of 'faith' and 'belief' in the NT both mean not just to "assent to the truth of something" but also to act on that truth. Faith and action (including works) are tied intimately together.

Notice the parallels and contrasts between (un)belief and (dis)obedience:

"And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief." (Hebrews 3:18-19)

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him". (John 3:36)

So in God's view if you believe you obey, and if you disbelieve you disobey.

And with a combination of the Holy Spirit empowering you and the life that comes from reading God's Word you will be equiped to believe in (trust in & act/obey) God and his Word as you walk uprightly as He daily empowers you.

 

[Ambient]

I rewrite this portion of the OP:

Many would see it as just another religious sect. And if you were to ask any religious culture if they were right, they would say, "we sure are"!

 

[Drew]

Hello Ambient:

I believe that the texts of the Bible are certainly not the only "source" that delivers information to us about God, his nature, and his plans / desires for us. I believe that the Bible does tell us critically important things about God, man, and the relationship between the two. However, I also believe that God communicates his existence and his love for us in other ways as well. I believe that the orderliness of nature and its beauty tell us of God. I believe that God interacts with us directly, somehow communicating with us through the faculty of our "mind".

In short, I think it is an over-simplification to suggest that the words of the Bible are the only connection point we have to God. This is a very complex issue (I think) and a lot more could be said.

 

[Drew]

I rewrite this portion of the OP:

Many would see it as just another religious sect. And if you were to ask any religious culture if they were right, they would say, "we sure are"!

Well of course this is what any sect will say. The task before all of us is to determine which, if any, of the models of God iput forward by these different sects is actually correct. And perhaps there will be aspects of God that cannot even be expressed through words.

 

[Ambient]

That's sort of the point of this thread. Faith that you are on the right path, when the other religious sect has faith of the same thing. That's why I said that it would have been better for there to have been an obvious answer, not just one amongst many others. I'm not trying to place God and Christianity on the same level as some other religion, but I can see the problem that it would cause.

As far as "other ways of knowing God", even those can have various reasons behind them, both scientific and extra-religious.

I'm just trying to figure this "plan of salvation" out. I don't see why I am any better than a person in China, in that I was born and raised in a country where Christianity is the majority. If Christianity is THE correct religion, then why was I so fortunate to be in THIS country and not in China, when the person in China is supposedly equally loved by God?

 

[unred typo]

Ambient wrote: That's sort of the point of this thread. Faith that you are on the right path, when the other religious sect has faith of the same thing.
…..If Christianity is THE correct religion, then why was I so fortunate to be in THIS country and not in China, when the person in China is supposedly equally loved by God?

I believe that when the Bible says that Jesus is the only way, truth and life, this is true, but knowing that he is our salvation is not as essential to our salvation as doing what God has always required from man; love and obedience.

The problem with man is that all are going to die, so a new life in Christ has been arranged. Jesus died to provide the way that man can be perfect before God, and be born of the Spirit, when a man dies to the flesh. Those who follow the leading of the Spirit of God in their heart to do right, to love and forgive others, are placed in Christ. Those who are contentious and obey not the truth, abide in death.

God through his Son, is the one who makes this decision. It is not by the will of man wanting to be ‘chosen’ or ’born again’ and ‘asking God into his heart.’ It is by obedience to love and forgive one another that God abides in us. When we abide in love, the Spirit of God promises to cleanse us of our sin and then he can abide in us and if the Spirit that raised us Jesus abides in us, he will raise us up when our physical body dies.

You are fortunate to have a Bible and read this gospel for yourself, but you are unfortunate to live in this country where the true gospel has been replaced by another gospel that doesn’t believe in the teachings of Christ, but only in a superficial head knowledge of belief in a belief. This easy believe-ism is more insidious than the pagan religions of other countries because it is the perfect counterfeit for the truth and negates the very words of Christ that can save us if we obey them.

 

[cyberjosh]

I believe that the texts of the Bible are certainly not the only "source" that delivers information to us about God, his nature, and his plans / desires for us. I believe that the Bible does tell us critically important things about God, man, and the relationship between the two. However, I also believe that God communicates his existence and his love for us in other ways as well. I believe that the orderliness of nature and its beauty tell us of God. I believe that God interacts with us directly, somehow communicating with us through the faculty of our "mind".

Certainly, the Bible tell us that. He interacts with us through his Holy Spirit, and His creation most certainly does testify to Him (Psalms 19). But you must realize that the Bible is not just a "manual for life", it is a foundational inspired work by which we will actually be judged on the last day (as Jesus said concerning His own words and the law of Moses). It is the written word of God and it stands today, being as relevant today as God's current work in believers and interactions with them through his Spirit.

That's sort of the point of this thread. Faith that you are on the right path, when the other religious sect has faith of the same thing. That's why I said that it would have been better for there to have been an obvious answer, not just one amongst many others. I'm not trying to place God and Christianity on the same level as some other religion, but I can see the problem that it would cause.

As far as "other ways of knowing God", even those can have various reasons behind them, both scientific and extra-religious.

I'm just trying to figure this "plan of salvation" out. I don't see why I am any better than a person in China, in that I was born and raised in a country where Christianity is the majority. If Christianity is THE correct religion, then why was I so fortunate to be in THIS country and not in China, when the person in China is supposedly equally loved by God?

Your position before God is what really matters not your position compared to other men. Now really any man's "righteousness" is a filthy rags to Him, which is why Jesus imputes his own righteousness to those who believe in Him, but one man can have a better status in the eyes of God than another. For example "I have loved Jacob, but Esau I have hated" (Malachi 1:2). I'm not really sure why you even bring this up. God is not unfair to anyone, and all have their chance to listen to God. This is a very in-depth doctrine, so you would have to start a whole new thread if you really wanted to get to the meat of it. But I'm not sure where you are going with this.

Oh, and would you mind reading & responding to my first post on "belief" above? Was is relevant to what you were wanting to discuss?

~Josh

 

[Quath]

I have to agree with the OP. It use to bug me that a Hawaiian in the year 100 AD, who never hears of Jesus, will have to spend eternity in punishment and agony because God decided it should be so.

Many Christians see the problem with this and adjust their beliefs. Some change hell so it is not eternal torment. Some add in special rules and ignore the passage that Jesus is the only way to the Father. Some add in special exceptions like purgatory or reincarnation. Some add in lesser orment in hell. Some say that you can be saved in hell.

 

[John the Baptist]

Re: For something THIS important, why was "faith"

To christianity, the most important part of a person's life has to do with where they'll spend their eternal existence. Going with that thought, for something SO important as a person's eternal existence, it is obviously clear that having a person rely completely on the words written in a book, with no other evidences, is hardly the best plan! :-? If God really cared about EVERY single spirit within man, then I would think that a much better plan would have been used. To rely completely upon "word of mouth", text written down thousands of years ago, and with absolutely no way to confirm THIS religious writing over that of any other culture's religious beliefs, it seems clear that the plan was too easily set up for "failure". Many would never hear the message. Many would see it as just another religious sect. And if you were to ask any religious culture if they were right, they would say, "we sure are"! Occasionally, a person (being swayed by emotions) will move from one religious sect to another, perhaps back again.

I hope you can see my point here. With something SO important as eternity, this notion of "faith" is riddled with centuries and even several millennia of casualties. It should have been something obvious. IF it is SO important, there really shouldn't have ever been any contenders for the "this is the way to heaven" debate. Obviously, this is not the case, and it is man who will pay the price (if Christian doctrine is correct).

********

Hi, I see it as stated in Genesis 6:3. (just click on the verse & it will appear)
All of the Lord's creation has a conscience to start life with. No one can be accountable for what they do not know or what they did not have access to.
What does the Holy Spirit 'Strive' with us to do? Well, nature is the Godheads second Bible & everyone has access to that as I see it. And when one follows the Holy Spirits 'Leading' as seen in the Book of Romans 8:14 or as seen in His nature, then Acts 5:32 is the End Result. When they are in heaven, they will have every right to the tree of life ...even though they might not understand how they were saved? Romans 2:14-15

Their life is recorded in heaven's record books as the Only question asked of Christ, "IF YE LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS." See Ecclesiastes 12:13-14

And just for further thought, it is this recreated Love for the Christ that they never knew how they got, nor never knew as we had with perhaps more knowledge and opportunity to have? yet, they would have continued on as the Holy Ghost would have led them if God had seen fit to instruct as such! :fadein:

Now compare all of us here with what we know, huh? (or could have known & accepted? Luke 12:47-48)

---John

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

I have to agree with the OP. It use to bug me that a Hawaiian in the year 100 AD, who never hears of Jesus, will have to spend eternity in punishment and agony because God decided it should be so.

Many Christians see the problem with this and adjust their beliefs. Some change hell so it is not eternal torment. Some add in special rules and ignore the passage that Jesus is the only way to the Father. Some add in special exceptions like purgatory or reincarnation. Some add in lesser orment in hell. Some say that you can be saved in hell.

Yep.
Makes me wonder how a God who has the power to make the heavens and the earth, form man out of the dust of the earth and breathe life into him, was totally unaware of the Hawaiian guy.
It is amazing that the stuff that gets by God so easily is immediately picked up, understood, and judged by non-christians.

 

[Quath]

Yep.
Makes me wonder how a God who has the power to make the heavens and the earth, form man out of the dust of the earth and breathe life into him, was totally unaware of the Hawaiian guy.
It is amazing that the stuff that gets by God so easily is immediately picked up, understood, and judged by non-christians.

So what do you believe happens to the Hawaiian guy? Does he go to heaven or hell?

 

[cyberjosh]

Yep.
Makes me wonder how a God who has the power to make the heavens and the earth, form man out of the dust of the earth and breathe life into him, was totally unaware of the Hawaiian guy.
It is amazing that the stuff that gets by God so easily is immediately picked up, understood, and judged by non-christians.

Wow, that sounded like a load of sarcasm.

But if people really want to discuss that particular doctrine then perhaps another thread should be made, because this seems to be deviating from topic.

Have any of my posts been relevant to the primary discussion of this thread? I'm still confused on that, and no one has responded to my posts. Oh, and BTW, what does 'OP' stand for?

 

[cyberjosh]

So what do you believe happens to the Hawaiian guy? Does he go to heaven or hell?

Look all these questions that have been asked about "why have I heard the good news but not the Chinese guy?" and "What about the Hawaiian guy"? are answered in Romans chapter 1. Surely it wouldn't kill anyone to read a single chapter quickly in just a few minutes (if that). Here is an online link to Romans Ch.1. Verses 18 through 21 are the highlight of the doctrine.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

So what do you believe happens to the Hawaiian guy? Does he go to heaven or hell?

I trust God. I believe that He is a righteous judge. I believe He is the creator. I believe that He knows the people who are stranded on islands, who are raised in jungles, and who live in skyscrapers where the availability of Bibles and evangelist abound.
I trust His judgements. As His servant, I know that it is not His will that any should perish but that all should come to saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. I am willing to reach anyone for Him.

If He can reach me where I was, He is able to reach Hawaiian guy.
The question is, what does Hawaiian guy do, as he is exploring his island, wondering where it all came from, and God reaches out to Him.

2Ch 16:9 For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of [them] whose heart [is] perfect toward him...

 

[golfjack]

reply

Cyber, Our God is not a little God. Our God is a big God. Our God is able, and a God of more than enough ( El Shaddi).



May God bless, golfjack

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Wow, that sounded like a load of sarcasm.

Guilty as charged.

 

[cyberjosh]

Cyber, Our God is not a little God. Our God is a big God. Our God is able, and a God of more than enough ( El Shaddi).

I agree. So what's the point? I never said anything to the contrary. I'm just kinda confused about what the central topic is. Is it Faith or salvation, or is it tying the two together saying that "God shouldn't depend on faith for salvation" (attempting to paraphrase my current understanding of the openning post)?

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

I'm just kinda confused about what the central topic is. Is it Faith or salvation, or is it tying the two together saying that "God shouldn't depend on faith for salvation" (attempting to paraphrase my current understanding of the openning post)?

Cyber I kind of took it as this one: "God shouldn't depend on faith for salvation" That is what inspired the sarcastic remark.