For something THIS important, why was "faith" used

[cyberjosh]

Cyber I kind of took it as this one: "God shouldn't depend on faith for salvation" That is what inspired the sarcastic remark.

Ah, thanks for the clarification. I guess my posts weren't too off the mark then.

I must once again refer unbelievers or people who would really like to know the answer to these questions to read, Romans chapter 1. I posted a link to it at the bottom of the last page.

 

[Spirit Driven]

Greetings Ambient....

There is no need to worry about things.... God has never waited on anybody, he has already acted for all of our sakes long ago on the Cross at Calvary.

The Testimoney of the Holy Spirit via the Apostle Paul is that Paul is the Foremost of All Sinners.

NEWS..FLASH !

FOREMOST OF ALL SINNERS WAS NOT LOST TO GOD!

What makes you think anybody else will be ?


Grace and Peace to you

 

[John the Baptist]

Cyber, Our God is not a little God. Our God is a big God. Our God is able, and a God of more than enough ( El Shaddi).

I agree. So what's the point? I never said anything to the contrary. I'm just kinda confused about what the central topic is. Is it Faith or salvation, or is it tying the two together saying that "God shouldn't depend on faith for salvation" (attempting to paraphrase my current understanding of the openning post)?

********
You are seeing most everyone read right over the fact that ALL of these of Hebrews 11:13 ones DIED IN THE FAITH.

Compare Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 & Revelation 20:12 in the K.J. But pay attention that the only way for D-E-A-D folk to stand, is by RECORD BOOKS! OK?

--John

 

[mutzrein]

Re: For something THIS important, why was "faith"

To christianity, the most important part of a person's life has to do with where they'll spend their eternal existence. Going with that thought, for something SO important as a person's eternal existence, it is obviously clear that having a person rely completely on the words written in a book, with no other evidences, is hardly the best plan! :-? If God really cared about EVERY single spirit within man, then I would think that a much better plan would have been used. To rely completely upon "word of mouth", text written down thousands of years ago, and with absolutely no way to confirm THIS religious writing over that of any other culture's religious beliefs, it seems clear that the plan was too easily set up for "failure". Many would never hear the message. Many would see it as just another religious sect. And if you were to ask any religious culture if they were right, they would say, "we sure are"! Occasionally, a person (being swayed by emotions) will move from one religious sect to another, perhaps back again.

I hope you can see my point here. With something SO important as eternity, this notion of "faith" is riddled with centuries and even several millennia of casualties. It should have been something obvious. IF it is SO important, there really shouldn't have ever been any contenders for the "this is the way to heaven" debate. Obviously, this is not the case, and it is man who will pay the price (if Christian doctrine is correct).

I'll throw a spanner in the works here Ambient with a few ‘what-ifs’

What if faith was a gift of God and this faith was only given to those who receive the spirit?

What if only those who are born of the spirit have a spirit?

What if not everyone has an eternal existence since not all have received the spirit?

What if those who haven’t received the spirit, perish rather than suffer eternally?

Of course this is NOT what Christendom teaches but if it were true would this make any difference to your thinking?

 

[John the Baptist]

Cyber, Our God is not a little God. Our God is a big God. Our God is able, and a God of more than enough ( El Shaddi).

I agree. So what's the point? I never said anything to the contrary. I'm just kinda confused about what the central topic is. Is it Faith or salvation, or is it tying the two together saying that "God shouldn't depend on faith for salvation" (attempting to paraphrase my current understanding of the openning post)?

********
You are seeing most everyone read right over the fact that ALL of these of Hebrews 11:13 ones DIED IN THE FAITH.

Compare Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 & Revelation 20:12 in the K.J. But pay attention that the only way for D-E-A-D folk to stand, is by RECORD BOOKS! OK?

--John

******
John again: You ask this question.. "For something THIS important, why was "faith" used"?

Surely anyone can understand why perfectly created Adam was 'tested' by the 'forbidden tree' in the very midst of the Garden of Eden?? He was perfect & without the propensity to sin. (desire) Yet he was not MATURED into a Nahum 1:9 Eternally Safe 'Matured' to Save FAITH yet!

Got that? Cain in Genesis 4:6-7 came to maturity in the opposite 'direction'! The FAITH of Mature REBELLION. And James 1:15 tells of what the 'end' of sin brings. (compare 1 John 5:16-17) The only way God can have one mature to a safe to save Perfection, is by that of a FAITH THAT WORKS into Maturity. James 2:20, James 2:24-26

And this FAITH requires a starting point of being brought to Adams spiritual status. Being Born Again. Then and only then can one finish a character Mature in Christ. And again, does any person need all of this understanding? Not really, (Acts 5:32) not as long as they FOLLOW THE LEADING of the Holy Ghost into all Truth that He gives then. Again, Romans 2:14-15. But still, this FAITH WORKS THE WORKS OF GOD! Yet, understand that Christ had & Eternally has SUPPLIED all mankind (+ angels) the tools for the Complete Work of Obedient Faith! Philippians 4:13 & 2 Corinthians 12:9 :fadein:

OK: Now if we choose not to use the freely provided provisions for an Maturing working testing 'FAITH' of Obedience, whose falt is it? :

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Yep.
Makes me wonder how a God who has the power to make the heavens and the earth, form man out of the dust of the earth and breathe life into him, was totally unaware of the Hawaiian guy.
It is amazing that the stuff that gets by God so easily is immediately picked up, understood, and judged by non-christians.

Wow, that sounded like a load of sarcasm.

Guilty as charged.

My apologies to those who were offended by my sarcastic remarks.
That was my reaction after reading through one thread after another in these forums, where nonbelievers consistently express their opinion that if there is a God, then He is doing it all wrong.

I would like to encourage those who are truly seeking understanding, wisdom, and knowledge on the Word of God. There is a ton of resources available on line. If you are seeking understanding on Noah's Ark, The Cross, The end times, Bible History or any other topic. You can key word anything into your search engine and come up with a list of websites where many hard working researchers have the information that you are looking for.
Searching through several websites may produce conflicting information. That is why I suggest that you spend some time in prayer. Tell God that if He is indeed real, that you want to know it. If He is indeed good, that you want to believe it. If there is a heaven to gain and a hell to shun, that you want to know about it. Pray that sincerely. Tell Him that you heard it from Gabbylittleangel that Jesus Christ is Lord. That Jesus Christ is the Son of God who came to earth to tell us the good news of God's love. Tell God that Gabby says that the Bible claims that in order to spend eternity in Heaven with God, that we must be born again. Tell God that if that is true, that you want to know it, believe it, and do it. Ask Him to take the doubt and unbelief from you. Anything that is keeping you from the truth.
Ask Him to explain to you the things that you have questions on. Ask Him to guide you to the verses in the Bible, the book in the library, or the website on the internet that holds the answers to your questions.
It would be so much more productive than seeking answers from a bunch of people hanging out in this forum. Those of us who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, really do want you to get saved. If God chooses to speak to you through us, then be blessed by it. We can do the research and try to come up with the answer that you are looking for. But if you were to speak to God for yourself, and let God, who knows your heart, answer you, then you would have faith of your very own.

The bottom line to the question that was originally asked in this thread, as to why God uses faith. Because God is right all the time, and all the time God is right. Faith ~therefore~ is the right way to do it.

Challenging the faith of other people will not create faith for you. You can pick almost any passage in the Bible, and find volumes of books have been written on the meaning. If you are looking for contradictions, sin in the lives of believers, typos, or any other thing other than the Kingdom of God, then you will find the contradictions, sin and typos.

Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Pro 8:17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.

Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find [me], when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

If you are not really seeking God, but looking for some reason to support your doubt, unbelief, or excuses, you might do better to find a forum that is not full of born again, spirit filled, worshipers of the Lord Jesus Christ.

My prayer is that you find Him.

 

[Spirit Driven]

I always thought Adam was created as a vessel for Dis Honour.
After all the potter has right over the clay...... but to make sure God placed the Tree in the centre of the garden where Adam and eve had to conciousley avoid it... run around it.... high jump over it.

Then he gave the serpent power to decieve the man and the woman and placed the serpent in the garden with them, and do bear in mind that God also created our human fleshy nature....because he then actualy pointed the Tree out to the man and the woman, and told them.....

Do not eat of it.... Do not even touch it..... well we just could not help ourselves could we ?
Just had to have a little taste didnt we ?

God knows us pretty well eh!

Grace and Peace to you all.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

I always thought Adam was created as a vessel for Dis Honour.

Luk 3:38 ...Adam, which was [the son] of God.
No, God did not create Adam as a vessel for dishonor. He gave the man the earth. Man blew it, God made a way to redeem it.

After all the potter has right over the clay......

And He gave man the instruction, told Him the consequences of disobedience. He did not make robots. He made man.

but to make sure God placed the Tree in the centre of the garden where Adam and eve had to conciousley avoid it... run around it.... high jump over it.

There is a famous painting of the Garden of Eden. One tree. Eve. A lion, a unicorn, a snake, and a white picket fence. Not good theology.
The garden contained every tree in the world. Every animal in the world. They were allowed to go anywhere and do anything. Eat from any other tree.

Then he gave the serpent power to decieve the man and the woman and placed the serpent in the garden with them....

I tend to believe that this is the very spot that satan fell. Up until that time Scripture says that:
Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
For everything that He had made to be good, either the serpent had not yet fallen.
Eze 28:15 Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Then he gave the serpent power to decieve the man and the woman and placed the serpent in the garden with them, and do bear in mind that God also created our human fleshy nature....because he then actualy pointed the Tree out to the man and the woman, and told them.....

It sounds like you are taking this back to the devils theology ~ it's all Gods fault. God was wrong. God should not have...etc.
The good news, is that God is willing to pay for our sin. Jesus Christ bore Adam's the sin on the cross. He made a way back into the Kingdom of God ~ for those who choose to come back.

Do not eat of it.... Do not even touch it.....

God never said "Do not even touch it." Eve said that.

God knows us pretty well eh!

We need to know Him, eh?

 

[Ambient]

I read your earlier comments cybershark. They didn't really address the issues as I am posting them. This is more about how a person is to know that their faith is any more valid then another's faith, when having faith in something that has no evidence is all you have to go on. Muslims believe that THEY are on God's right path.

Also, the Hawaiian guy IS relevant to this topic. And in regards to Romans 1:20, just how would this Hawaiian guy come to the conclusion that "some other culture's God sent his son to die for the sins of the world, and believing this would save him", just by looking at his surroundings (nature)??? :-?

 

[Quath]

Here are the problems I see then with the Hawaiian. He never believed in Jesus or knew that Jesus died for his sine or knew that Jesus was the son of God or anything. So if he can get to heaven without this knowledge, then why teach about Jesus being the path to salvation.

If all of Christianity were to disappear, people would still go to heaven because they have this other path to heaven. So why teach Christianity? It doesn't seem to increase the number of people that will go to heaven.

 

[unred typo]

Cybershark5886 wrote:
Look all these questions that have been asked about "why have I heard the good news but not the Chinese guy?" and "What about the Hawaiian guy"? are answered in Romans chapter 1.

Quite true. Except Romans 1 doesn’t say what happens to the ones who do not suppress the truth, only the godless who live in unrighteousness:

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

You have to keep reading to chapter 2 to see the rest of the story:

Romans 2:6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11For there is no partiality with God.


There is no partiality with God here. When it comes to eternal rewards or punishment, God will not show favorites. God may choose some to be prophets or leaders or represent him to the nations, but he will also require more from those who have been given more. Those who do evil will receive evil. Those who love and forgive and do good, will receive love, forgiveness and good.

OP = opening post, btw

 

[unred typo]

Quath wrote: Here are the problems I see then with the Hawaiian. He never believed in Jesus or knew that Jesus died for his sine or knew that Jesus was the son of God or anything. So if he can get to heaven without this knowledge, then why teach about Jesus being the path to salvation.

If all of Christianity were to disappear, people would still go to heaven because they have this other path to heaven. So why teach Christianity? It doesn't seem to increase the number of people that will go to heaven.

We who know the gospel are given the privilege of telling them the good news that if they follow good instead of evil, they will be raised to live forever in a perfect world where love, righteousness and goodness are not an abnormal behavior but the only way everyone behaves all the time. If others see the future rewards of good behavior and following the laws written in their hearts to love and good works, they may repent and follow Christ. We tell them his words and expound on the things he taught and confirm the words that God has put within them. :fadein:

 

[Spirit Driven]

I always thought Adam was created as a vessel for Dis Honour.

Luk 3:38 ...Adam, which was [the son] of God.
No, God did not create Adam as a vessel for dishonor. He gave the man the earth. Man blew it, God made a way to redeem it.

[quote="Spirit Driven":f5e20]
After all the potter has right over the clay......

And He gave man the instruction, told Him the consequences of disobedience. He did not make robots. He made man.

but to make sure God placed the Tree in the centre of the garden where Adam and eve had to conciousley avoid it... run around it.... high jump over it.

There is a famous painting of the Garden of Eden. One tree. Eve. A lion, a unicorn, a snake, and a white picket fence. Not good theology.
The garden contained every tree in the world. Every animal in the world. They were allowed to go anywhere and do anything. Eat from any other tree.

Then he gave the serpent power to decieve the man and the woman and placed the serpent in the garden with them....

I tend to believe that this is the very spot that satan fell. Up until that time Scripture says that:
Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
For everything that He had made to be good, either the serpent had not yet fallen.
Eze 28:15 Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Then he gave the serpent power to decieve the man and the woman and placed the serpent in the garden with them, and do bear in mind that God also created our human fleshy nature....because he then actualy pointed the Tree out to the man and the woman, and told them.....

It sounds like you are taking this back to the devils theology ~ it's all Gods fault. God was wrong. God should not have...etc.
The good news, is that God is willing to pay for our sin. Jesus Christ bore Adam's the sin on the cross. He made a way back into the Kingdom of God ~ for those who choose to come back.

Do not eat of it.... Do not even touch it.....

God never said "Do not even touch it." Eve said that.

God knows us pretty well eh!

We need to know Him, eh?[/quote:f5e20]

Greetings Gabby....

So you disagree that God is the Author of all things ?

We have to bear in mind that the Lamb was Slain at the foundation of the world.... before the first Man and Woman where made.

That out side of the Left and right hand of God....absolutely nothing happens at all.

I think what finaly did it for me, is where scripture tells us that God locks up all in disobedience so that he can show mercy to all... Adam and Eve are not exclusive from that.

Man has no power to affect outcomes out side of Gods will.....all the glory goes to God... absolutley none to man, we only exist by his will in the first place, and we are much lower than puppets..... we are wet clods of Clay.

Grace and Peace to you

 

[Ambient]

Spirit Driven, where do you get that notion from? :-?

 

[Spirit Driven]

Spirit Driven, where do you get that notion from? :-?

Which one Freind, we can discuss them all via scripture if you like.

Peace to you

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Greetings Gabby....

So you disagree that God is the Author of all things ?

NEVER, EVER TRY TO PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH.

 

[John the Baptist]

Spirit driven said:

Greetings Gabby....

"So you disagree that God is the Author of all things ?

We have to bear in mind that the Lamb was Slain at the foundation of the world.... before the first Man and Woman where made. .. "

John here: Gabby Gal tell's you pretty straight that you are putting words into her mouth!

But let me say that I think that your 'post' has changed the Masters Word too? See Ecclesiastes 3:14 & Revelation 22:18-19

Ephesians 1:3-5 says it to me at least, before, not at? 'According as He hath chosen us in him, before the foundation of the world, ...' That is quite an error as I see it? Unless in my old age of study I missed this verse of your post???

Anyway, I see the Gospel as saying in Inspiration, (Revelation 14:6) that the 'Everlasting Gospel' is, Eternal both directionswith foreknowledge such as verse 5. If not, how can we find Matthew 25:1-2 having %50 of heaven compared to earth, of angels, and then finally finding that only 1/3 were cast out of heaven in Revelation 12:3-4??

--John

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Greetings Gabby....

So you disagree that God is the Author of all things ?

NEVER, EVER TRY TO PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH.

Spirit driven said:

Greetings Gabby....

"So you disagree that God is the Author of all things ?

John, It looks as if you took that as a dare.

 

[Spirit Driven]

Are we agreed that God is the Author of all things then ?

That man has no power to bring about out comes outside of Gods Will ?
That it is Gods plan not ours?

Peace to you.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

There was no if in this statement. God commanded.
Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying...


1 Cr 14:33 For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Seems to be some confusion that is trying to plant itself on this thread. The author of confusion is at work. My God is the author of peace....and faith.

Hbr 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

The author that you speak of, wrote into His plan the words if and choose. He tells us what to choose. He tells us why we should choose it. Then He tells us to make the choice.


Deu 30:15-20 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, [and that] ye shall not prolong [your] days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, [and] that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he [is] thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Just in case you missed it:
1 Cr 14:33 For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Cut to the chase guys. :-?