For those "not a sheep" . . . what next?

[stovebolts]

I can't reject someone that I haven't formally met..

From what I've heard you say, you've met God, but you've got a great deal of misunderstandings. That's ok because even Abram and Jacob had misunderstandings. Jacob even wrestled with God, and I think it's good that you too are wrestling with God.

I understand that "god's word" is usually referring to "the Bible". I don't see it as supernaturally inspired and I have my reasonings for that. Even though, seeing what god had done [if we're talking about the OT] isn't a reason to embrace it. .

I've offered elsewhere to discuss any passages in the OT you'd like to consider. That offer is still open. You see, what I've found, is that most don't understand what was taking place in many of the OT passages and they get the idea that the God of the OT is different than the God of the NT. Like I said earlier, be careful how you define love, and I'm open for further dialog.

I say it doesn't match because a human court cannot put someone in chains for eternity and cause unbearable misery. .

I think you have this idea that our world is full of inocent people who make harmful mistakes and none of it's their fault. Well, sorry to burst your bubble, but there are people in this world that are just plain evil. Every day a child is sexually molested in horrific fashion (let your imagination wander...), every day an innocent person dies at the hand of some greedy person, every day people are hurt, mamed, killed, extorted, molested etc etc etc. It's a reality and don't think otherwise and don't blame their actions on their parents or their upbringing etc. We are each accountable for our own crimes and we will each give an account on the day of judgment. This world is full of misery, pain and suffering purposfully and intently at the hand of others and the Bible tells us that they too will be acountable on the day of judgment. There are things that God hates, and if you don't hate the act of murdering an innocent person, or the act of child molestation etc, then may God have mercy on your soul. Sorry, but they bring wrath upon themselves.

A few things. If god is omniscient, then:

1. human "free will" is an illusion. All things play out as was forseen.
2. it was foreknown that hell WOULD have billions of humans in it, so its creation would have to have taken that into consideration for its design.
3. it would be well known, by god, how each person could be reached. Some would require more than the word of man..

I'll let Drew handle this.

If the negative aspects of the bible were not there, . . . if the biblical god actually had an advanced characteristic not including "wrath", but was a god that would be exciting to know, . . . there would still be an issue of "leaving it all up to "faith". How do I see "faith"? It is only the ability of a person to blindly believe a story just because a LOT of people say it is true. I can't be honest AND say that I can believe it at face value.

Honestly, I don't believe half the things you believe either and I find God very exciting, both in the OT and in the NT. Also, I don't see God as a wrathful God because he enjoys it.. No, God is a just God and I'm thankful that God is a just God because it's not mine to revenge, because God will take care of it. So the question I have for you, is why do you think we view the scriptures so much differently? Ohhh, and I don't think my faith is blind.. I'm more of a Judas.

 

[savedbygrace57]

deav:

IN WHAT WAY are they PUNISHED WITH EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION?

from the glory of his power

 

[Bubba]

Way off, this smells like the false teaching of universalism, that everybody will be saved. Am I right ?

I already know the depts of argument you want to go with a bunch of language rhetoric and i am not the one.

This passage has to do with what the partial and full preterist have already pieced together, the Fall of Jerusalem and the end of a religious system. Yes I am a Universalist, but many believe that verse means what I wrote, that are not UR.
Bubba

 

[savedbygrace57]

This passage has to do with what the partial and full preterist have already pieced together, the Fall of Jerusalem and the end of a religious system. Yes I am a Universalist, but many believe that verse means what I wrote, that are not UR.
Bubba

Way off, this smells like the false teaching of universalism, that everybody will be saved. Am I right ?

I already know the depts of argument you want to go with a bunch of language rhetoric and i am not the one.

 

[Deavonreye]

deav:



from the glory of his power

sbg, . . . Is this an Abbot and Costello skit??? I'm amazed that it is taking so long for you to answer a simple question. Let me put it another way. . . . . What will this person EXPERIENCE during this time? Not a scriptural reference, but specific experience. Fire? Heat? Pain? Explain or stop posting in this thread.

 

[Deavonreye]

From what I've heard you say, you've met God, but you've got a great deal of misunderstandings. That's ok because even Abram and Jacob had misunderstandings. Jacob even wrestled with God, and I think it's good that you too are wrestling with God.

I didn't meet any god. I saw words written in a book and people telling me things from a pulpit. I understand that it is claimed that the bible is "god's word", but that can never be proven, so I'm left with [again] "faith" alone to believe a work of man. It isn't nearly enough.

I think you have this idea that our world is full of inocent people who make harmful mistakes and none of it's their fault. Well, sorry to burst your bubble, but there are people in this world that are just plain evil. Every day a child is sexually molested in horrific fashion (let your imagination wander...), every day an innocent person dies at the hand of some greedy person, every day people are hurt, mamed, killed, extorted, molested etc etc etc. It's a reality and don't think otherwise and don't blame their actions on their parents or their upbringing etc. We are each accountable for our own crimes and we will each give an account on the day of judgment. This world is full of misery, pain and suffering purposfully and intently at the hand of others and the Bible tells us that they too will be acountable on the day of judgment. There are things that God hates, and if you don't hate the act of murdering an innocent person, or the act of child molestation etc, then may God have mercy on your soul. Sorry, but they bring wrath upon themselves.

Don't get me wrong. There ARE bad people out there, and they should be punished for their wrongs. Evil, malignant folk, necessarily put away. If their SOUL is equally as evil, . . . I don't know what should happen to them. Maybe annihilation. But eternal punishment proves nothing and only creates a place in existence where evil and hatred is allowed to flurish. It is unnecessary.

Honestly, I don't believe half the things you believe either and I find God very exciting, both in the OT and in the NT. Also, I don't see God as a wrathful God because he enjoys it.. No, God is a just God and I'm thankful that God is a just God because it's not mine to revenge, because God will take care of it. So the question I have for you, is why do you think we view the scriptures so much differently? Ohhh, and I don't think my faith is blind.. I'm more of a Judas.

I think that people learn the way they "must read it" and believe it. And they must believe that there god could never do anything imperfectly, or outside omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence, omnibenevolence,. . . . or even outside of what is moral or ethical. I believe that some [not necessarily you] may fear questioning a book, even when there may be legitimate issues.

But I seek what is true, and often times, during my reading of the bible, I took on the "danger" of asking question of parts that didn't make sense to me, or were blatently erroneous.

 

[Bubba]

sbg, . . . Is this an Abbot and Costello skit??? I'm amazed that it is taking so long for you to answer a simple question. Let me put it another way. . . . . What will this person EXPERIENCE during this time? Not a scriptural reference, but specific experience. Fire? Heat? Pain? Explain or stop posting in this thread.

Ditto SBG

 

[savedbygrace57]

deav:

I'm amazed that it is taking so long for you to answer a simple question

I have answered it, with scripture 3 times, if you need more than the scripture testimony, then just wait until the time comes.

The punishment will be of God's Power, and His Power is of Unlimited Ability.


2 thess 1:

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,


8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

 

[Bubba]

YLT
7and to you who are troubled -- rest with us in the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven, with messengers of his power,

8in flaming fire, giving vengeance to those not knowing God, and to those not obeying the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ;

9who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,

10when He may come to be glorified in his saints, and to be wondered at in all those believing -- because our testimony was believed among you -- in that day;

 

[Deavonreye]

deav:

I have answered it, with scripture 3 times, if you need more than the scripture testimony, then just wait until the time comes.

The punishment will be of God's Power, and His Power is of Unlimited Ability.

2 thess 1:

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Does "flaming fire" mean buring in an eternal fire, or is it a metaphor? The verse doesn't say anything specific. "Punished with everlasting destruction" could mean annihilation. That destruction would be everlasting.

 

[smaller]

[/I][/B]

There is a lot of authoritarianism on this board, I've noticed. Some of it seems VERY hostile and angry. There is a great divide of doctrine that one can see when they arrive at sites such as this, . . . each believing that THEY received the "true gospel message" via inspiration of the holy spirit, but their doctrine differs greatly from another . . . who also has the same holy spirit inspiration. It's enough evidence that it should throw up a red flag for someone who just steps back and looks at it outside of "doctrinal glasses", . . . as I did a long time ago.

That was a wise step back. I did similar.

What I am talking about is how "sins are removed", the initial starting point, the system that was set up, . . . that ultimately wasn't good enough. . . hence a human sacrifice of a finite vessel. . . . flesh and bone. The spirit is only contained therein. And ultimately, it wasn't really anything that was truly sacrificed.

And that would be what I mentioned. A non-accurate view of the matter.

Attribution of sins were taken away from mankind, but obviously sin remains. (see 2. Cor. 5:19 (NIV is best on this one) for an easy reference.)

s

 

[stovebolts]

Does "flaming fire" mean buring in an eternal fire, or is it a metaphor? The verse doesn't say anything specific. "Punished with everlasting destruction" could mean annihilation. That destruction would be everlasting.

Deavonreye,
If I may ask, if you don't believe in the Bible, why does it disturb you so much what others believe in this matter? You say you seek truth and deny what scripture clearly says, though you yourself don't understand scripture well enough to discern it properly and then take offense in what appears to me is utter nonsense to you. I'm just left scratching my head is all.

But to show you your lack of basic biblical understanding, I'm sure everyone caught this except you. You see, I made a mistake in something I said earlier that every christian on this board caught I'm sure. Let me post it again...

Ohhh, and I don't think my faith is blind.. I'm more of a Judas.

A basic understanding of what is plainly known is that I was talking about Thomas, not Judas and you didn't even catch it. If you can't catch a simple error, how is it that you can paint an accurate picture when it comes to the rest of scripture?

 

[savedbygrace57]

deav:

Does "flaming fire" mean buring in an eternal fire, or is it a metaphor? The verse doesn't say anything specific.

It specifically says this : 2 thess 1:

9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

 

[lamplady]

He doesn't actively speak to me. Doesn't speak to anyone else, for that matter. Someone hearing a "still small voice" is of no value to me when it comes to discussing issues with god. I would love to ask, but god remains silent.

I meant on judgement day ...

 

[stovebolts]

I didn't meet any god. I saw words written in a book and people telling me things from a pulpit. I understand that it is claimed that the bible is "god's word", but that can never be proven, so I'm left with [again] "faith" alone to believe a work of man. It isn't nearly enough.

There are many things that can be easily proven while others are not so easy. But the fact that you tell me that the Bible has to be proven to you to be true tells me that you're still wrestling with God. Again, that's ok, keep wrestling and keep asking questions. But in the meantime, keep learning and don't think that you know everything that the Bible has to say, or that you understand everything written in the bible. It's a hard book to understand and isn't so cut and dry in many places. You see, it was meant to be wrestled with and what you earlier called a house divided, I call people wrestling with Scripture. You're just wrestling a different topic, so welcome to the family.

Don't get me wrong. There ARE bad people out there, and they should be punished for their wrongs. Evil, malignant folk, necessarily put away. If their SOUL is equally as evil, . . . I don't know what should happen to them. Maybe annihilation. But eternal punishment proves nothing and only creates a place in existence where evil and hatred is allowed to flurish. It is unnecessary.

This alone tells me that at least you believe that we have a soul, and it looks like you're opting for annihilation. Fine, that's a start so keep learning. However, I think you're wrong where you state that evil is allowed to flourish and I'm not sure where you got that idea. Certainly you didn't get it from the bible.
I used the analogy that some people romanticized about prison and actually looked forward to prison. Some people actually take pride in being the bad guy. Why is it so hard to believe that some actually want to go to eternal punishment? John puts it this way,
John 3:19 And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil.

I think that people learn the way they "must read it" and believe it. And they must believe that there god could never do anything imperfectly, or outside omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence, omnibenevolence,. . . . or even outside of what is moral or ethical. I believe that some [not necessarily you] may fear questioning a book, even when there may be legitimate issues.

When you use those big words (omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence, omnibenevolence) it tells me that you know about a particular doctrine than the scriptures that support those doctrines. Tell me, what scriptures support omniscience? Let's question those scriptures and see if you really understand what omniscience means. Fair enough?

But I seek what is true, and often times, during my reading of the bible, I took on the "danger" of asking question of parts that didn't make sense to me, or were blatently erroneous.

Well, you've stated that many times, yet I've yet to see you post the actual scriptures.. it's almost like a blanket statment without any scriptures. Tell ya what, forget all the doctrines you're opposed to and lets talk scriptures ok?

 

[Deavonreye]

...you're still wrestling with God... don't think that you know everything that the Bible has to say, or that you understand everything written in the bible....Certainly you didn't get it from the bible....Let's question those scriptures and see if you really understand....it's almost like a blanket statment without any scriptures.....Tell ya what, forget all the doctrines you're opposed to and lets talk scriptures ok?

It definitely isn't the case that I know everything about the bible. It doesn't take knowing everything, and in reality, it only takes one thing. Why do I say this? Because I am convinced that a large portion of biblical text was NOT "the words of god", but that of simple humans. I will attempt to bring up a few of the things, that I found questionable, in threads dedicated to them.

 

[Deavonreye]

deav:



It specifically says this : 2 thess 1:

9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

I asked for specifics. That verse is vague as to HOW one will "be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the lord, and from the glory of his power". What will that existence BE like? If you don't know more than this verse, say so. If you do, post it here, please.

 

[coffeeelover]

I asked for specifics. That verse is vague as to HOW one will "be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the lord, and from the glory of his power". What will that existence BE like? If you don't know more than this verse, say so. If you do, post it here, please.

Everlasting destruction means that something is destroyed, and is never able to be brought back... ever... it exists no more.

 

[Igor]

I asked for specifics. That verse is vague as to HOW one will "be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the lord, and from the glory of his power". What will that existence BE like? If you don't know more than this verse, say so. If you do, post it here, please.

I'm wondering, why are you so fixated on extracting such detail of what hell will be like? You seem more interested in this, than in many of the other topics you have brought up.

You aren't going to like this, but there are some things that God just doesn't tell us. In earthly terms, our government will tell us that if we commit such and such a crime, we will be punished by being sent to jail for such and such a time. Isn't that enough to know? In order for you to believe it, do you really need to be told that the jail cell will have a steel door with a lock, you will be given a thin mattress to sleep on, and you will probably be raped in the rectum by your roommate? Isn't it enough to just be told that you will be sent to jail, for you to believe and trust in that enough to avoid the crime?

Just knowing that eternal hell will exist in some form is enough incentive for me to do everything I can to avoid it! (Clearly, I’m not a Calvinist.) I only hope that you will some day come to the same realization and just ask and trust God to save you from that punishment. When you do that, and I mean really do it in your heart, you will find that your life will take on so much more meaning that you won’t even have to worry about this anymore. (I certainly don’t!) In all the history of Christianity, out of all the millions of Christians and Old Testament saints, God has chosen to have actual face to face conversations with very, very few of them. If you are demanding that he pick you to be part of this very small group before you will believe anything about him, I’m afraid there is a good chance you will be disappointed. I hope you will consider putting faith back in God soon, before it’s too late. You will only get so many chances before it’s over.

Deavonreye, although I am responding to things you have said here, I am also posting this for other readers. It may not be intentional, but you are casting seeds of doubt on weaker brothers. Unfortunately, that is many times an unavoidable bad side effect of these conversations. I just want to encourage everyone reading this to learn what you can from the discussions, but to never forget that your faith in God and your relationship with Him is far more important than having all the answers. Sometimes, we just don’t know what those answers are until we finally meet God face to face one day. Jesus spoke much truth when he told us to just worry about today because tomorrow will have enough to worry about in itself.

 

[savedbygrace57]

deav:

I asked for specifics.

I am going to give you what God gave me :

It specifically says this : 2 thess 1:

9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;