For those "not a sheep" . . . what next?

[smaller]

It definitely isn't the case that I know everything about the bible. It doesn't take knowing everything, and in reality, it only takes one thing. Why do I say this? Because I am convinced that a large portion of biblical text was NOT "the words of god", but that of simple humans.

Says you. The text is filled with speakings of deceipt IN man that is NOT of the man. Most people are not able to see this because it's a fact of deception IN them and they don't even know it.

Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

It was God who so bound ALL people to THAT SPIRIT.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

IF you 'stopped' believing, then THAT spirit was the 'cause' and you will not know it or realize the difference between yourself and that spirit.

It is quite pointless to read the text without that fact in mind.

THE WORD deals with spiritual matters and the unseen. To see it any other way will not yield 'accurate' information.

s

 

[Nick]

I completely reject the doctrine of people "choosing hell". No one "chooses" to go to everlasting punishment. It is forced upon them because of it being the only other choice. Someone who is unable to be dishonest about what they feel about the god of the bible, in other words, finding no evidence for believing THIS religion to somehow be THE only religion amongst thousands of others, . . . only having the words of other people telling you that THEY are right. Not being able to believe other PEOPLE is not the same as "choosing hell over Jesus". If I was able to experience the person of Jesus, that would go a long way to [and here's the key] making a decision of this magnatude. "Faith" is an unethical way for people's future to be determined by.

People effectively choose hell when they reject God's Gift.

If you are stranded on an island, and a rescue boat comes to save you but you decide to get off the island yourself and fail and then die, whoose fault is it? I think we'd all agree that it is not the rescue boat, or the person that sent the boat. Even if they were unable to convince you that the boat floated, the fault lies with YOU, because YOU rejected it.

God gives us a second chance at life - Eternal Life. He did this by sending his Son as a living sacrifice. The beauty of Grace is that it makes life not fair; we all deserve to be in hell.

 

[Deavonreye]

Insead of replying to each post, I'm just going to say the following.

sbg57, if that is what you have to offer, then thanks.

Others, . . . I focus on hell because some people believe that god created it for eternal punishment for those who "don't accept Jesus as savior". I ask this question. . . . Can you be made to believe that Allah is the one true god and accept him? What would convince you of it? How about Kali? Outside of relevant evidence, how does one choose the "right god"? You may be comletely convinced in your beliefs, but conviction doesn't necessarily mean truth, and muslims and hindus are firm in their belief based on what has been given to THEM.

Why bring up hell [and talk about christianity, for that matter], because this country holds a majority in it. . . .those who are not christian are considered faulty, evil, or immoral, . . . but there has been far more done in the OT that is far more immoral than I have ever been in my life.

And what am I being saved from? Or better yet, who? I've heard many times that "people choose hell". Nonsense. Not having ALL the information necessary to even KNOW what is true [outside of what people tell you to believe as true], how can a TRUE decision be made? Do I just choose the one that "keeps me from a horrifying afterlife"? Convert out of fear? That would be about it because I cannot have a "relationship with Jesus" just by "faith" in a book I read.

 

[savedbygrace57]

nick:

People effectively choose hell when they reject God's Gift.

The gift is not offered, its given. By Christ obedience, as a Gift, many shall be made righteous, not offered righteousness.

rom 5:

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[savedbygrace57]

deavo:

sbg57, if that is what you have to offer, then thanks.

Yes, I am sorry the word of Truth is not enough for you..

 

[Deavonreye]

deavo:



Yes, I am sorry the word of Truth is not enough for you..

Well, vagueness often does that to me.

Hey, is it possible that I could still be "a sheep"?

 

[savedbygrace57]

deav:

Well, vagueness often does that to me.

Thats between you and God, He gives understanding, not me.

 

[stovebolts]

Others, . . . I focus on hell because some people believe that god created it for eternal punishment for those who "don't accept Jesus as savior".

Hell was not created for people.. Mt. 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment

I ask this question. . . . Can you be made to believe that Allah is the one true god and accept him? What would convince you of it? How about Kali? Outside of relevant evidence, how does one choose the "right god"? You may be comletely convinced in your beliefs, but conviction doesn't necessarily mean truth, and muslims and hindus are firm in their belief based on what has been given to THEM.

I understand your point, so continue with your research and take a stand for what you believe in. But may I suggest that in all the religions you've posed, they all have truth in them, each and every one of them. As a Christian, I've found the ultimate truth in the bible and I give that glory to God through his Son Jesus who was the promised Christ. But also, as a Christian I'm still seeking, knocking and asking...

Why bring up hell [and talk about christianity, for that matter], because this country holds a majority in it. . . .those who are not christian are considered faulty, evil, or immoral, . . . but there has been far more done in the OT that is far more immoral than I have ever been in my life.

I don't consider non-christians evil or immoral just because they are not "Christian". Heck, I'd go as far as to say that everyone, including Christians are faulty, immoral and some that stake the claim of Christianity are even evil.

As far as the OT, I'm still waiting to discuss those matters with you.

And what am I being saved from? Or better yet, who? I've heard many times that "people choose hell". Nonsense. Not having ALL the information necessary to even KNOW what is true [outside of what people tell you to believe as true], how can a TRUE decision be made? Do I just choose the one that "keeps me from a horrifying afterlife"? Convert out of fear? That would be about it because I cannot have a "relationship with Jesus" just by "faith" in a book I read.

Fear can be a good motivator, but it has to mature into love. My child when he was young wanted to get the mail for me, and I tried to explain it many times that it was not safe for him to get the mail from across the street where our mail box was, but he still wanted to get the mail. Talking didn't help, he wasn't mature enough to know that he could get killed... so I gave him a spanking, and based on fear, he stopped doing something that although was admirable, could have cost him his life.

Saved from what you ask?... Perhaps from the reality of hell on earth. But your right, you can't have a relationship with Jesus just by reading a book and taking bits and bytes out here and there to paint a picture that isn't an accurate portrayal of the true picture. You say you're looking for truth and you don't even understand what you've read, yet assert your portrait is correct...

Again, when can we start talking about what the scriptures actually say?

 

[Deavonreye]

deav:



Thats between you and God, He gives understanding, not me.

Well, it is very interesting that you would say this, sbg. . . . as it will be a topic for another thread. Be looking for it, if you wish.

 

[smaller]

Well, vagueness often does that to me.

Hey, is it possible that I could still be "a sheep"?

Matthew 9:36
But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd.

Mark 6:34
And Jesus, when he came out, saw much people, and was moved with compassion toward them, because they were as sheep not having a shepherd: and he began to teach them many things.

ACCORDING to Mr. SBG, less than 1% of people are sheep.

"less than 1%. I believe much less than 1% of people on earth right now are saved."

I say his 'math' is self serving, self centered and FALSE self justification.

Do not heed his MATH.

Jesus saw MULTITUDES of SHEEP PEOPLE.

I believe through HIS EYES.

PERHAPS when you see THE REALITY OF THE WOLVES, you will understand the REALITY OF GOD?

s

 

[mondar]

Here is my question:

Do you believe that I, as a person not called to be "a sheep", deserve to be sent to eternal misery in hell? Key words are "eternal" and "misery". Please don't post scripture or dogma, answer this from your own thoughts/feelings, . . .and think about what "eternal" and "misery" means. Also, remember that everyone "sins", even those who claim that they have "walked away from their sin". They still "sin". . . . the only difference is that someone was able to believe in a concept [found in the bible] that has no real evidence, . . . someone else wasn't able to honestly state that belief.

Thank you for your input.

One phrase I notice in your question is the phrase "deserve to be sent to eternal misery in hell?" I don't see the difference between those called to be sheep and those not called to be sheep, both groups "deserve to be sent to eternal misery in hell!"

I think the major difference between your statement and the way I understand scripture has to do with the nature of man. Are you not seeing man as at least morally neutral, and not as I do, a rebel who has earned and deserved the wrath of a righteous God?

If you start from your premise that man is morally neutral, then I guess it would be consistent to say all men deserve a chance. If you start from my premise that all men are evil and born into a rebellion against a holy God, then is it not consistent for me to say ---> No one has earned or deserves any chance whatsoever. Is God somehow unjust if he chooses to give his grace to some men and not to other rebels?

Let me illustrate what I am saying---
You would see 10 innocent babies, God offers each one the oppertunity to not rebel and choose him.

I would see 10 death row rapist/murders. God might pardon 3, and allow the other 7 to go the the electric chair where they deserve death. If the governor of my state pardons 3 death row inmates, is he wrong because he did not pardon all 10? Certainly not. Maybe not all men are rapist/murders, and not all men have sinned as much as they could, but all men are rebels--- against the holy God and deserve death, eternal death. Men are by nature rebels against God. We go about to establish our own authority and sovereignty by nature.

When we begin from these different starting points, we end up with naturally very different opinions. The gulf between an evil man, and a holy God is much greater on my side of the fence. Therefore on my side of the fence we salvation as grace upon grace, and we did not have any part in that salvation. On your side of the fense, we have to at least do something to help. Usually what helps God save us is that free will decision where we assist Gods grace by at least reaching up and accepting it. On our side of the fence, no one is even that neutral to accept anything from God. We are rebels and sinners. We do not seek God, but we run from God.
Romans 3:11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
It is by his will
John 1:13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[stovebolts]

Very well said mondar,
And if I can add, throughout the Bible, we have example after example starting with Eve who decided she knew what was best for her (and others), and her actions were self serving when she disobeyed God's simple command. Man has a way of only looking inward and ultimately becoming a god within himself seeking to rule over others with the premise that they know best... Pharaoh is one example, but a modern day example might even be Hitler, or George Soros.

I believe a better way to live is to live outward and upward first and foremost, and that brings about an inner peace that is beyond compare.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Well, it is very interesting that you would say this, sbg. . . . as it will be a topic for another thread. Be looking for it, if you wish.

Nah I dont wish, I have witnessed to you already what thus saith the Lord, and you do not receive it.

 

[savedbygrace57]

stove:

Hell was not created for people..

Yes it was, What scripture says it was not ? In fact those Jesus is going to put in there, it was prepared for them too.

God made them according to a eternal purpose, which was to make them vessels of wrath and fit them for destruction, the destruction of hell.

The only way to avoid this logical conclusion, is to suppose God from everlasting did not know that He was going to put them in hell. Now do you believe that ?

 

[Deavonreye]

Nah I dont wish, I have witnessed to you already what thus saith the Lord, and you do not receive it.

That's fine, . . . but that doesn't mean that what you "witnessed" to me about is actually true.

Have a good day.

 

[savedbygrace57]

That's fine, . . . but that doesn't mean that what you "witnessed" to me about is actually true.

Have a good day.

Yeah. Its the word of God..

 

[Deavonreye]

Yeah. Its the word of God..

Prove it.

 

[stovebolts]

stove:



Yes it was, What scripture says it was not ? In fact those Jesus is going to put in there, it was prepared for them too.

God made them according to a eternal purpose, which was to make them vessels of wrath and fit them for destruction, the destruction of hell.

The only way to avoid this logical conclusion, is to suppose God from everlasting did not know that He was going to put them in hell. Now do you believe that ?

Mt. 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

do you agree that the eternal fire speaks for hell?.... clearly it was prepared for the devil and his angels. That being said, I do not deny scripture when it says that those on his left will also go there.

Show me clearly in scripture where it says that Hell was prepared for people.

 

[Danus]

Why do you see yourself as one not called, chosen, elect...ect? Your a Christian? You believe that Christ died for you and you have a relationship with Christ? You love God? You consider yourself borne again?

If you have embraced your salvation then you are elect as far as I'm concerned as it relates to your salvation and the promise of God. Besides It's not for me to tell you what your condition is. That's between you and God. You know where you stand.

What does it matter what someone else thinks? I'm not in the business of condemning others to Hell and God would not have that of me or another man. Of that I'm sure.

What do you say of yourself in this matter?

I'm actually not a christian. I was, but deconverted a few years ago.

.....Then what's it to you?

 

[savedbygrace57]

Prove it.

If you dont know, then its not Gods will for it to be proved to you. God prefers some people to believe a lie.

2 thess 2:11


And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: