For those who ascribe to Salvation by Grace through faith

[mythunderstood]

Affirmative...

So, for all the people who are presented with the gospel but do not believe it, is the Holy Spirit unable to convict them? You agreed that the Holy Spirit convicts (convinces) everyone who is exposed to the gospel, and yet this is not the case. I, for one, am an example of someone who has heard the gospel preached hundreds of times and has never been convicted.

 

[glorydaz]

So, for all the people who are presented with the gospel but do not believe it, is the Holy Spirit unable to convict them? You agreed that the Holy Spirit convicts (convinces) everyone who is exposed to the gospel, and yet this is not the case. I, for one, am an example of someone who has heard the gospel preached hundreds of times and has never been convicted.

"Hearing" the gospel message can be done with our ears alone, or we can actually take it in.

Many people hear the good news, and not all will be convicted by what they hear.

This is where the power of the Word of God comes into the salvation process, because those who have a heart that accepts the call to repentance will readily be drawn to the light of the gospel. One must see himself in the light and recognize his own sinful condition. Those who think they're just fine the way they are won't really "hear."

These are the different conditions of those who hear the Word of God.
Perhaps you could see which one applies to you.

Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

12Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

13They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

14And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

15But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

 

[mythunderstood]

"Hearing" the gospel message can be done with our ears alone, or we can actually take it in.

Many people hear the good news, and not all will be convicted by what they hear.

This is where the power of the Word of God comes into the salvation process, because those who have a heart that accepts the call to repentance will readily be drawn to the light of the gospel. One must see himself in the light and recognize his own sinful condition. Those who think they're just fine the way they are won't really "hear."

These are the different conditions of those who hear the Word of God.
Perhaps you could see which one applies to you.

I agree. Grubal appears to believe that everyone who hears the message is convicted by the Holy Spirit. That is why I specifically asked him that question.

The unregenerate (natural) man naturally rejects the Gospel.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” – 1 Corinthians 2:14

We cannot believe of ourselves.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

So, for all the people who are presented with the gospel but do not believe it, is the Holy Spirit unable to convict them? You agreed that the Holy Spirit convicts (convinces) everyone who is exposed to the gospel, and yet this is not the case. I, for one, am an example of someone who has heard the gospel preached hundreds of times and has never been convicted.

Because of free-will there are those who "reject" the truth of the Gospel. And if you've truly heard the message of Salvation, and what it means to you personally, then I would say, you've "actively" chosen to reject it. Which doesn't mean you won't have another chance, because the Spirit "strives" with the hearts of men to bring them to Christ. Have you heard what salvation means, where it comes from and who paid the price for your sins so that you could be forgiven by placing your faith. Are you aware of these truths??

 

[Grubal Muruch]

I agree. Grubal appears to believe that everyone who hears the message is convicted by the Holy Spirit. That is why I specifically asked him that question.

The unregenerate (natural) man naturally rejects the Gospel.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” – 1 Corinthians 2:14

We cannot believe of ourselves.

From what I've seen you say here, you are indeed, aware of the truth and yet, rebel against it by your "unbelief." That is your choice... The Spirit may make you realize your a sinner (in need of a Saviour) but, it's still "your" choice to reject or except the message, that's free will...

 

[mythunderstood]

From what I've seen you say here, you are indeed, aware of the truth and yet, rebel against it by your "unbelief." That is your choice... The Spirit may make you realize your a sinner (in need of a Saviour) but, it's still "your" choice to reject or except the message, that's free will...

According to the bible, the unregenerate naturally rejects the gospel as foolishness. Without spirit, we are unable to understand spiritual things. Yes, I am aware of the gospel message and have "heard" it, but no spirit has made me realize that I am a sinner in need of a savior, so I have no choice but to reject the message. I have heard the story, but as it is said....."it is foolishness" to me.


“Keep on hearing, but do not understand; keep on seeing, but do not perceive. Make the heart of this people dull, and their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and return and be healed†(Isa. 6:9-10; cf. Mk. 4:12, Lk. 8:10). “Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil.... He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God†(Jn. 8:43-44, 47). The preaching of the gospel is useless to the deaf. The written word is of no effect to the blind. Only God can open blind eyes and deaf ears. “The hearing ear and the seeing eye, the LORD has made them both†(Pr. 20:12).

 

[Grubal Muruch]

According to the bible, the unregenerate naturally rejects the gospel as foolishness. Without spirit, we are unable to understand spiritual things. Yes, I am aware of the gospel message and have "heard" it, but no spirit has made me realize that I am a sinner in need of a savior, so I have no choice but to reject the message. I have heard the story, but as it is said....."it is foolishness" to me.


“Keep on hearing, but do not understand; keep on seeing, but do not perceive. Make the heart of this people dull, and their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and return and be healed†(Isa. 6:9-10; cf. Mk. 4:12, Lk. 8:10). “Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil.... He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God†(Jn. 8:43-44, 47). The preaching of the gospel is useless to the deaf. The written word is of no effect to the blind. Only God can open blind eyes and deaf ears. “The hearing ear and the seeing eye, the LORD has made them both†(Pr. 20:12).

Do you think you stand guilty of being a sinner??

 

[glorydaz]

I agree. Grubal appears to believe that everyone who hears the message is convicted by the Holy Spirit. That is why I specifically asked him that question.

The unregenerate (natural) man naturally rejects the Gospel.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.†– 1 Corinthians 2:14

We cannot believe of ourselves.

That's quite a leap, and by taking an isolated verse to prove your point is not the way to the Truth. That verse (1 Cor. 2:14) is speaking, not of the power of the gospel to save, but the discernment a saved man has in comparison to the unsaved.

We can't just decide we're going to believe...that's true, but that doesn't mean it's not our responsibility to choose to follow the light presented in the gospel. Christ is lifted up (serpent on a pole), we must look if we want to live. If we just stand there with our head down or turn away, we will not live. To hear or to look means we "take in".

 

[Grubal Muruch]

That's quite a leap, and by taking an isolated verse to prove your point is not the way to the Truth. That verse (1 Cor. 2:14) is speaking, not of the power of the gospel to save, but the discernment a saved man has in comparison to the unsaved.

We can't just decide we're going to believe...that's true, but that doesn't mean it's not our responsibility to choose to follow the light presented in the gospel. Christ is lifted up (serpent on a pole), we must look if we want to live. If we just stand there with our head down or turn away, we will not live. To hear or to look means we "take in".

Amen...

 

[mythunderstood]

That's quite a leap, and by taking an isolated verse to prove your point is not the way to the Truth. That verse (1 Cor. 2:14) is speaking, not of the power of the gospel to save, but the discernment a saved man has in comparison to the unsaved.

We can't just decide we're going to believe...that's true, but that doesn't mean it's not our responsibility to choose to follow the light presented in the gospel. Christ is lifted up (serpent on a pole), we must look if we want to live. If we just stand there with our head down or turn away, we will not live. To hear or to look means we "take in".

What "light" presented in the gospel? Why is it not your responsibility to choose to follow the light presented in the religious teachings of any other religion? The preaching of the gospel (to me) has no more "light" to choose from than the preaching of any other religion. What makes the difference (supposedly) is the conviction of the Holy Spirit. However, without that, there is no difference, and hence.....no belief.

 

[glorydaz]

What "light" presented in the gospel? Why is it not your responsibility to choose to follow the light presented in the religious teachings of any other religion? The preaching of the gospel (to me) has no more "light" to choose from than the preaching of any other religion. What makes the difference (supposedly) is the conviction of the Holy Spirit. However, without that, there is no difference, and hence.....no belief.

The Gospel presents the Light of the World ...Jesus Christ who is the way, the truth, and the life, and no one goes to the Father of us all by any other means.

I can tell, from reading your posts, that the Lord will have to do a bit of softening on your heart before you are able to look past you belief in yourself. Be warned, the Lord intervenes in the affairs of men, and there are no boundaries to hold Him back.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

The Gospel presents the Light of the World ...Jesus Christ who is the way, the truth, and the life, and no one goes to the Father of us all by any other means.

I can tell, from reading your posts, that the Lord will have to do a bit of softening on your heart before you are able to look past you belief in yourself. Be warned, the Lord intervenes in the affairs of men, and there are no boundaries to hold Him back.

AMEN!!!

 

[glorydaz]

According to the bible, the unregenerate naturally rejects the gospel as foolishness. Without spirit, we are unable to understand spiritual things. Yes, I am aware of the gospel message and have "heard" it, but no spirit has made me realize that I am a sinner in need of a savior, so I have no choice but to reject the message. I have heard the story, but as it is said....."it is foolishness" to me.


“Keep on hearing, but do not understand; keep on seeing, but do not perceive. Make the heart of this people dull, and their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and return and be healed†(Isa. 6:9-10; cf. Mk. 4:12, Lk. 8:10). “Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil.... He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God†(Jn. 8:43-44, 47). The preaching of the gospel is useless to the deaf. The written word is of no effect to the blind. Only God can open blind eyes and deaf ears. “The hearing ear and the seeing eye, the LORD has made them both†(Pr. 20:12).

Why do you quote scripture if you don't believe? Why are you here if you're not seeking?

Me thinks thou doest protest too much. ;)

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Why do you quote scripture if you don't believe? Why are you here if you're not seeking?

Me thinks thou doest protest too much. ;)

I totally agree with Glorydaz Do you want to find and have the Lord in your life, if so we can explain to you how?? But, on the other hand, if your here just to deny and argue, why?? I certainly wouldn't be studying up on somebodies else's belief, just so I could argue with them over something I don't even believe. So what's your angle??

 

[mythunderstood]

That's quite a leap, and by taking an isolated verse to prove your point is not the way to the Truth. That verse (1 Cor. 2:14) is speaking, not of the power of the gospel to save, but the discernment a saved man has in comparison to the unsaved.

And? What "leap" are you talking about? The "unsaved", "unbelievers" , "unregenerate", whatever you want to call them, cannot understand things that are spiritual. They are foolishness to them. They are "dead" spiritually. Only god can grant understanding via the Holy Spirit.


Luke 24:45
Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.

Romans 3:11 There is none who is understanding, there is none who is seeking after God. (YLT)

2 Timothy 2:7 Consider what I say, and may the Lord give you understanding in all things.

Luke 18:34 They understood none of these things. This saying was hidden from them, and they didn't understand the things that were said

1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the wisdom that has been hidden, which God foreordained before the worlds for our glory,

John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

John 8:47 "He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God"

 

[Lehigh3]

And? What "leap" are you talking about? The "unsaved", "unbelievers" , "unregenerate", whatever you want to call them, cannot understand things that are spiritual. They are foolishness to them. They are "dead" spiritually. Only god can grant understanding via the Holy Spirit.

If you mean the Bible, then of course they can't understand the word of God.

Receiving Christ & being born again of the Spirit is required first.

But there are still at least slightly different interpretations on what the Inspired Word is saying in scripture.

One thing is true. Buddha offers so called "enlightenment" but can a dead mute idol offer salvation? Peace maybe. That's true (it is the only other decent religion imo) But like Hinduism, God wasn't revealing Himself to the far easterners- but to the former pagans of the middle east.

Christ is peace & salvation. One needs "light" beyond this temporal plane. I know I do. ;)

 

[mythunderstood]

The Gospel presents the Light of the World ...Jesus Christ who is the way, the truth, and the life, and no one goes to the Father of us all by any other means.

I can tell, from reading your posts, that the Lord will have to do a bit of softening on your heart before you are able to look past you belief in yourself. Be warned, the Lord intervenes in the affairs of men, and there are no boundaries to hold Him back.

I'll be waiting.... Hasn't happened in 30+ years, so my expectations are pretty low. Still am waiting on the holy spirit to convict me too....

 

[Lehigh3]

I'll be waiting.... Hasn't happened in 30+ years, so my expectations are pretty low. Still am waiting on the holy spirit to convict me too....

Oh, not too late to be blessed, friend. I have to agree with glorydaz. We reap what we sow. It's God's karma.

John 8:34,
34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.

Psalm 119:11,
11 Your word I have hidden in my heart,
That I might not sin against You.

 

[deekimbley]

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

In verse 25 according to "my gospel" Paul is sent out with a different gospel than what Peter and the 11 are sent with.​

Pauls gospel:​

1 MOREOVER, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;​

2 By which also ye are saved, if yekeep in memory what I preached unto you, unlessye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sinsaccording to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Peter and the 11 didn't know during Acts 2:38 that Christ had died for thiers sins it was a mystery kept secret since the world began. Not until Paul went to Jerusalem. In Galatians we see the record of Paul meeting with James, Cephas, & John in Jerusalem

Gal 2​

​

1 THEN fourteen years afterI went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.​

2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles,

6 But of thesewho seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man’s person for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:​

7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision,

the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles):​

Thats what I was trying to convey about the fact that we better pay attention to what is recorded in Paul's epistiles. Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles with a message that Peter knew nothing about in Acts 2:38



Something else to ponder

10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.​

​

You are so right. When I saw this truth, that Paul was the apostle to the gentiles, it was like a light bulb came on. I have a lot more faith, a lot more peace, and I'm not always trying to make scripture fit together, or trying to figure out contradictions. It just all fits together now. We have to keep the body of Christ separate from the Jews, or we have a lot of contradictions. God is always the same, but He deals differently with people in different ages..If you think back to the old testament, you can't see it plainly. And remember the 4 gospels were to the Jew and under Law. We are under grace and not under law..It is so simple once you see it. I just wish I had learned this years ago..Paul says all we have to do to be saved is believe the Gospel, which is that Christ died for our sins and rose again for our justification. It is just that simple. PRAISE THE LORD.[/FONT]

 

[Bob Carabbio]

rejoicing that someone else suffered in my stead

AMEN BROTHER!!! I ABSOLUTELY rejoice that Jesus SUFFERED in MY stead, and that I WILL NOT see "Justice" in any sense of the Word. I gladly accept His DEATH for me, and make HIm my "Sin offering" so that HE makes me a Child of God.

"My sense of righteousness does not concede that this is an equitable trade."

I agree completely - but that's perfectly O.K. It WASN'T an "Equitable trade", and was never supposed to be. In the LONG run, however, God's "Plan of redemption" will PROVE His wisdom in doing it the way He did.

"If however I believe that men were deceived and did not by freewill choose to sin, then I can partake of the sacrifice of Christ with a clean conscience, knowing he was protecting us from an unjust and merciless prosecutor known as Satan."

In other words you don't WANT to see yourself as the selfish, flesh-driven, depraved, and at enmity with God person that the Bible says you are. Personally I have no problem with that TRUTH about human nature.

I know as I draw close to the end of this "Adventure" that NOTHING I do now, or have ever done (including becoming a Christian) is/has EVER been motivated by ANYTHING other than my total selfishness, and self interest.

THANK GOD I won't experience "justice" when this is over!!!!!!