Forgiveness requires Works

[TheCatholic]

Jesus taught the Law of Moses to a people that were under the Law of Moses. In this dispensation we not under the Law of Moses.........

Helloooooo ooooo. I already said that:

When Paul - who had been a staunch Pharisee remember - when he speaks of works and how they don't save us, he is speaking of works of the law. Of course, the word "Law" in Hebrew is "Torah". In other words, Paul is saying that Old Testament works/regulations don't save us. And I agree. But works that are done in cooperation with God's grace ARE salvific and neccessary for our salvation.........

 

[RichardBurger]

Jesus taught the Law of Moses to a people that were under the Law of Moses. In this dispensation we not under the Law of Moses.........

Helloooooo ooooo. I already said that:

When Paul - who had been a staunch Pharisee remember - when he speaks of works and how they don't save us, he is speaking of works of the law. Of course, the word "Law" in Hebrew is "Torah". In other words, Paul is saying that Old Testament works/regulations don't save us. And I agree. But works that are done in cooperation with God's grace ARE salvific and neccessary for our salvation.........

If they "ARE NECESSARY" then it is a requirement and therefore a law. The only "COOPERATION" that is necessary for us to do it is to put "ALL" our faith, trust, confidence and hope in the work of Jesus on the cross. To place any of it in our works is a slap in the face of God. -- If anyone thinks that our works are NECESSARY for salvation, then according to Paul, they have fallen from grace.

 

[azlan88]

Catholic, if you hang the rule of salvation on one passage then you run the risk of misenterpreting God's word. You need to compare scripture with scripture. For example, you don't get the whole story of Revelation unless you compare it with Danie's visions, and vice versa. I am also insulted by your response to my post.

 

[TheCatholic]

If they "ARE NECESSARY" then it is a requirement and therefore a law........

You're catching on. They ARE neccessary. The Bible is clear on that. If you want to call it a "law" thats up to you

 

[TheCatholic]

Catholic, if you hang the rule of salvation on one passage then you run the risk of misenterpreting God's word..........

I'm not. I am just using that verse as one example.

 

[Joe67]

Rom 5:9-10
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. KJV


The controversy on the thread surrounds the presentation of forgiveness and salvation as being interchangeable.

It is the free gift of justification unto life/salvation.

Rom 5:1-2
5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. KJV

The Spirit of Jesus spoke it through the apostle John as forgiveness for little children and victory for the young men.

Some little children have not grown to be young men and thereby are forgiven but have not gained the victory over the wicked one. All young men who have gained the victory over the wicked one are little children also and have known the Father.

As only little children and/or young men, they have not yet become fathers and known him who is from the beginning. The "fathers" condition brings us into the perfect will of God for us in Christ Jesus.

Joe

 

[TheCatholic]

It is the free gift of justification unto life/salvation.

Yes, its a free gift. That in no way deinies the neccessity of works.

IRom 5:1-2
5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. KJV

Justified by faith, yes, but NOT by faith ALONE. "Faith Alone" is taught nowhere in the Bible. In fact, there is only ONE place in the entire Bible where those two words - "faith alone" - stand by side, and that is in James 2:24: "You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone."

 

[Joe67]

Catholic,

The entire post acknowledged the victory that will follow forgiveness. And finally the "fatherhood" whereby forgiveness and victory are made mature/complete/fruit bearing.

A baby is born through the fatherhood of another. When the baby grows, he becomes a young man ( warrior ). He matures as he brings others into the family; thus extending to them the mercy shown to himself in his birth.

Thus forgiveness is made complete.

James 2:8
8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: KJV

James 2:22
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? KJV

Rom 12:2
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. KJV

The forgiveness aspect of which you are emphasising, and of which our Lord spoke of in his sample prayer is the completion, mature, parenthood phase of forgiving. Otherwise, all of our sins will come back on our head; even as our Lord Jesus illustrated in his parable of the man forgiven much who did not forgive his neighbor who owed him little.

Joe

 

[Aaron the Tall]

What if somebody was never wronged - and therefore had nobody to forgive. Would that exclude them from being forgiven by God, if our forgiveness is solely the result of forgiving others?

Or what if someone was born without arms and legs and had no money. They couldn't clothe anyone or feed anyone or give anyone a drink of water - or do any of the good works that you may say are necessary to be saved. Are they without hope?

What if someone believed in Christ for salvation and the very next moment was killed. They didn't have a chance to do any of good works to go with their new faith.. I guess that person is out of luck.

I know these are extremes, but it seems helpful to carry out a premise to its extreme to see if it still holds up.

 

[wavy]

Welcome to the forums, btw. Check out my response to you here. Would like your thoughts.


Finis,
Eric

 

[Aaron the Tall]

Thanks for your welcome. I enjoy discussing these topics - it helps me hammer out a sound doctrine.

 

[francisdesales]

What if somebody was never wronged - and therefore had nobody to forgive. Would that exclude them from being forgiven by God, if our forgiveness is solely the result of forgiving others?

Or what if someone was born without arms and legs and had no money. They couldn't clothe anyone or feed anyone or give anyone a drink of water - or do any of the good works that you may say are necessary to be saved. Are they without hope?

What if someone believed in Christ for salvation and the very next moment was killed. They didn't have a chance to do any of good works to go with their new faith.. I guess that person is out of luck.

I know these are extremes, but it seems helpful to carry out a premise to its extreme to see if it still holds up.

We believe that God will judge us based on what we did; we presume this will take into account our ability to do these things to begin with - thus, God doesn't judge a parapalegic using the same litmus test as He would for an ordinary and average Christian who has full use of his appendages.

God looks into our hearts and judges. It is not the "work" that will save, but what motivates us to do the "work" that shows whether we are pure of heart.

Regards

 

[TheCatholic]

What if somebody was never wronged - and therefore had nobody to forgive. Would that exclude them from being forgiven by God, if our forgiveness is solely the result of forgiving others?

Or what if someone was born without arms and legs and had no money. They couldn't clothe anyone or feed anyone or give anyone a drink of water - or do any of the good works that you may say are necessary to be saved. Are they without hope?

What if someone believed in Christ for salvation and the very next moment was killed. They didn't have a chance to do any of good works to go with their new faith.. I guess that person is out of luck.

I know these are extremes, but it seems helpful to carry out a premise to its extreme to see if it still holds up.

We believe that God will judge us based on what we did; we presume this will take into account our ability to do these things to begin with - thus, God doesn't judge a parapalegic using the same litmus test as He would for an ordinary and average Christian who has full use of his appendages.

God looks into our hearts and judges. It is not the "work" that will save, but what motivates us to do the "work" that shows whether we are pure of heart.

Regards

Correct

 

[TheCatholic]

[youtube:g5ssey98]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlcinxP56AE&feature=PlayList&p=C626D3E1EA3E26B2&index=1[/youtube:g5ssey98]

 

[Aaron the Tall]

So God's standards for righteousness fluctuate according to the circumstance?

I thought Jesus was the standard = perfection.
Jesus did not fluctuate or change. He is the standard by which we will be judged - and by those standards we will all be found guilty. God does not grade on a curve.

 

[TheCatholic]

So God's standards for righteousness fluctuate according to the circumstance?

I thought Jesus was the standard = perfection.
Jesus did not fluctuate or change. He is the standard by which we will be judged - and by those standards we will all be found guilty. God does not grade on a curve.

I don't understand what you are trying to say

 

[Joe67]

Forgiveness is an inward spiritual work of God's grace in our hearts and minds.

This work of grace is made manifest in the outer man according as God, by the Spirit of Jesus, wills.

It is possible to give our possessions and even our physical being and labor, but it not come by grace and through the heart and mind in faith which works by love that purifies the soul.

I need this warning more than any other brothers and sisters in the Lord. I need the Lord to try the motives of my inward man daily.

1 Cor 11:31-32
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. KJV

Forgiveness is a work of God through his grace that is in Jesus Christ our Lord. We are his workmanship, working in us that which is well pleasing in his sight, by that power whereby he is able to subdue all things unto himself, through the blood of the everlasting covenant and God's free gift of justification thereby giving us peace with him in Jesus Christ.

Joe

 

[Aaron the Tall]

Francis wrote:

We believe that God will judge us based on what we did; we presume this will take into account our ability to do these things to begin with - thus, God doesn't judge a parapalegic using the same litmus test as He would for an ordinary and average Christian who has full use of his appendages.

Under the topic of forgiveness, or salvation, this idea was proposed. The subtopic was the extent that we are responsible to do good works - which you said provide the "legs" to receive our salvation. (correct me if I'm wrong). I'm saying that if God requires different amounts of work for different people to enter into eternal life, than His standards are changing from person to person. I would say that it doesn't matter if someone is parapalegic or completely healthy - God's standards of righteousness are always the same = perfection. Either you've got it or you don't.

I do believe that God will judge his children according to what they have done with the gifts they have been given - but that is a separate judgment from His separating the "sheep" and the "goats." All the children will go to heaven - but their reward therein will be dependent on their faithfulness on earth.

 

[faithtransforms]

Sorry, I do not agree. Again, any human effort is not acceptable in God's sight. Anything "I" do is a work, agreed. But what you seem to interpret as what "I" am doing, I interepret as what God within me is doing by His Spirit. It is not me. Refer to the verses I posted concerning sancification. IT is God who wills and works within me.

I agree with this entirely. Forgiveness is like a fruit of the spirit. It manifests as a result of the Spirit's work in me, nothing I can possibly ever do.

I do disagree with this though, that we are spiritually dead and that is why we cannot do good works. If you are born again, you are no longer spiritually dead. You are alive to God in the spirit (See Eph 2 and Romans 6). We can do good works but only by the grace of God that is at work in our spirit. Anything that I do in my flesh (which is still dead) is filthy rags.

 

[francisdesales]

Under the topic of forgiveness, or salvation, this idea was proposed. The subtopic was the extent that we are responsible to do good works - which you said provide the "legs" to receive our salvation. (correct me if I'm wrong). I'm saying that if God requires different amounts of work for different people to enter into eternal life, than His standards are changing from person to person. I would say that it doesn't matter if someone is parapalegic or completely healthy - God's standards of righteousness are always the same = perfection. Either you've got it or you don't.

I disagree. God doesn't require perfection from us, no more than I require perfection from my own children. We are under grace, not the law.

God looks into the heart of the person and will measure the love found there. Each person will be have a different set of standards because each person has been given different gifts or talents. See the parable on the talents...

I do believe that God will judge his children according to what they have done with the gifts they have been given - but that is a separate judgment from His separating the "sheep" and the "goats." All the children will go to heaven - but their reward therein will be dependent on their faithfulness on earth.

There is no indication of a separate judgment for Christians and one for non-Christians. There is a judgment upon our personal death and a final judgment that makes "public" God's judgments for all to see that He is indeed Just. His children are subject to a judgment and will be condemned if found without love. I do believe that the Scriptures clearly point out the fact that "he who has been given much, much will be expected from him", and thus, Christians will be held to a HIGHER standard (not a lower standard!), and this goes even more for Christian leaders. Some will be given a severe beating for their disobedience, while others, a lesser one for their ignorance.

Regards