Bible Study forgivness of sin

[yesha]

I'm beginning a study on the topic of conditional/eternal assurance/security.

One thing that I've always kind of believed, but never really thought about is that our past/present/and future sins are forgiven with Jesus. However, I have a book, called 'The Believer's Conditional Security' by Daniel Corner, in which I was surprised to read his opinion that our sins were forgiven only to point of baptism, and thereafter we must pray for forgiveness of sins (sorry, I don't have the exact quote handy, but it was something to that effect).

I think that in Catholicism one must confess their sins to a priest to be forgiven, and I assume that baptism is in someway related to fogiveness of sins (possibly pre-baptism), which is kind of in line with this position, giving it some credibility, I suppose. But it essentially destroys the Gospel, at least as I have always understood it. If prayers are all that's needed to forgive sin, then why should Jesus die. So now I find myself in a position where I must reevaluate everything, in light of this idea.

Why would we naturally pray for forgiveness of sins if sins are already forgiven?

What sins did Christ die for?

Grace and Peace,
Yesha

 

[DM]

Hi Yesha.

I think you've touched upon a very intriguing topic for discussion. I think all of us have wrestled to one degree or another when it comes to the idea of having our sins forgiven. I have also recently looked at this issue more closely, and with help from discussing it with close friends. What I've come to conclude, is perhaps a more radical concept.

I want to talk about this statement you made in the initial post:

If prayers are all that's needed to forgive sin, then why should Jesus die.

What caught my eye in that, was the word "needed". You rhetorically asked if "prayer" was all that was "needed". Most Christians would automatically say that Jesus' death was "needed" in order for God to forgive our sins. Which is to say, that the debt of sin had to be paid before God could forgive. In other words, surely SOMETHING was "needed" SO THAT God could forgive us, yes?

What I've come to conclude, however, is that this view of "forgiveness" actually ignores the plain meaning of the word "forgiveness" itself. Forgiveness, by definition, is the cancelling of an unpaid debt. If any debt is "paid for", then it cannot be "forgiven" in the first place.

All that is needed for God to forgive, then, is simply God's willingness to do so. God is, and has always been, forgiving. Having said that, what is "needed", I believe, is not for something to occur on God's part to extend forgiveness, but rather, something on our part to receive forgiveness. We need convincing evidence that God has truly "forgiven" (i.e. cancelled out) our sins. I believe God has provided that evidence in Jesus' death and subsequent resurrection from the dead. He was "delievered over to death for our sins, but was raised to life for our justification." (cf. Romans 4:25)

In other words, Jesus died "for our sins" (since the wages of sin is "death" - Romans 6:23), and afterward, Jesus was raid to life "for our justification". Which is to say, that our "justification" (or righteousness) has already been proven beyond any doubt by God having raised up
Jesus from the dead. "Righteousness" (i.e. justification) was credited to Abraham on the basis of his believing in God's promise to him - which is synonymous with having "faith" (cf. Romans chapter 4). On that very same basis, "righteousness" (a.k.a. justification) will be credited to us who believe (have faith) in God who raised Jesus from the dead (cf. Romans 4:23,24).

In short, our sins are forgiven completely and totally and freely. Indeed, this was and is God's intent of the meaning of the "New Covenant", when He says, "I will take away their sins and remember their lawless deeds no more". (cf. Jeremiah 31:31-34 / Hebrews 10:16,17)

As a result, "mercy triumphs over judgment" (cf. James 2:13)

Grace and peace
David

 

[yesha]

In short, our sins are forgiven completely and totally and freely. Indeed, this was and is God's intent of the meaning of the "New Covenant", when He says, "I will take away their sins and remember their lawless deeds no more". (cf. Jeremiah 31:31-34 / Hebrews 10:16,17)

If I have understood you correctly, you are of the same opinion as me that all our sins(past/present/future) have been forgiven. So then you would answer the question 'should we pray for the forgiveness of sins?' with 'No, since all our sins are forgiven we don't need to pray for their forgiveness.' Is that correct?

14 “For if you forgive people their wrongdoing, your heavenly Father will forgive you as well. 15 But if you don’t forgive people, your Father will not forgive your wrongdoing.
Matt 6:14-15 (HCSB)

Does this passage suggest to you that there may be conditions for forgiveness?

12 So then, brothers, we are not obligated to the flesh to live according to the flesh, 13 for if you live according to the flesh, you are going to die. But if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live
Romans 8:12-13 (HCSB)

And what about this passage. Doesn't it suggest that ones salvation is somehow a function of ones conduct?

My problem is I am quite convinced that all sin was forgiven at Calvary. And that seems to logically lead to OSAS doctines as you pointed out. However, something just doesn't sit right with me.

Thanks,

 

[DM]

Hi Yesha.

You asked,

So then you would answer the question 'should we pray for the forgiveness of sins?' with 'No, since all our sins are forgiven we don't need to pray for their forgiveness.' Is that correct?

That is correct.

You also asked,

14 “For if you forgive people their wrongdoing, your heavenly Father will forgive you as well. 15 But if you don’t forgive people, your Father will not forgive your wrongdoing.
Matt 6:14-15 (HCSB)

Does this passage suggest to you that there may be conditions for forgiveness?

I don't think there are any conditions for "forgivenss" what-so-ever. God has completely and totally and freely forgiven everyone's sins. Having said that, I would also say that I believe there is a condition for our "justification", which results in and culminates with eternal life. That justification (a.k.a. righteousness) is by "faith", which produces the "hope" of salvation, demonstrated in this life by our "love" for God and for one another.

You also asked,

12 So then, brothers, we are not obligated to the flesh to live according to the flesh, 13 for if you live according to the flesh, you are going to die. But if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live
Romans 8:12-13 (HCSB)

And what about this passage. Doesn't it suggest that ones salvation is somehow a function of ones conduct?

I would agree that our conduct, while never flawless, should be increasingly moving in a more righteous direction over the course of time. Behaving accordingly to the law of Christ, which is the law of love, will give us the "full assurance" of our inevitable salvation that the NT speaks so much about, I believe.

Grace and peace,
David

 

[handy]

Hi Yesha.

You asked,

So then you would answer the question 'should we pray for the forgiveness of sins?' with 'No, since all our sins are forgiven we don't need to pray for their forgiveness.' Is that correct?

That is correct.

This is a good topic for discussion. The problem that I have with your opinion David is that James exhorted the brethren to "Confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed." (James 5:16) John told us, "If we say we have no sin, we ae deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1John 1:8-9) Notice John is saying "we" here, not "the world", so the again the context of this passage would be to the brethren. And the writer to the Hebrews writes, "For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries....How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as un-clean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?" (Hebrews 10:26-29) Again, this is specifically written to those sanctified by the blood of the covenant, so it cannot be talking about non-Christians.

An alternative explanantion to Christ's work on the cross is this: That Christ satisfied the requirements for sacrifice, and that His sacrifice was sufficient to pay the price for our sins. Unlike the old animal sacrifices, we need not sacrifice anymore to receive forgiveness for our sins. But, we do need to ask for forgiveness of those sins. Unless one is walking in perfection and never sins, we do need to deal with the fact that we do sin. The way to deal with this inevitable fact of Christian life is to confess our sins to one another and to pray for one another.

 

[DM]

Hi handy,

In general, I agree with everything you've said. I didn't intend for it to come across sounding as though we are without sin, though I may have mistakenly given that impression. (Those who know me will certainly vouch for my ability to sin). My point was simply to say that God doesn't need any mechanism, or any particular event to transpire in order to forgive sins. God is and has always been forgiving.

This is, I believe, the essense of "the good news" . . . that God forgives sins.

My emphasis was on just what "forgiveness" actually is, by it's definition. Whenever a debt is "paid for", then that debt has been met, which necessarily means, it has NOT been "forgiven". The idea that God must be "paid" in order to "forgive", makes it seem as though God is incapable of genuine mercy and forgiveness. (Otherwise His forgiveness must be "bought").

I agree with you that we must confess our sins, but I don't think we need to ask for forgiveness of those sins from God (since He's already freely given us His forgiveness). Rather, the passage in James, I think, is with respect to our relationships with each other. We need to confess our sins "to one another". We need to know that we have asked for, and receive forgiveness from each other.

Having said all of that, I still advocate a willful, deliberate admission of our shortcomings before God in prayer, with the intent of asking for His forgiveness so that we might grow in faith and hope and love (as opposed to, so that He won't destroy us on the day of judgment. I think we've already been assured of that salvation)

Grace and peace,
David

 

[yesha]

[quote david]
I agree with you that we must confess our sins, but I don't think we need to ask for forgiveness of those sins from God (since He's already freely given us His forgiveness).
[/quote]

You make an important point here, confession does not necessarily imply asking for forgiveness.

[quote handy]
An alternative explanantion to Christ's work on the cross is this: That Christ satisfied the requirements for sacrifice, and that His sacrifice was sufficient to pay the price for our sins. Unlike the old animal sacrifices, we need not sacrifice anymore to receive forgiveness for our sins. But, we do need to ask for forgiveness of those sins. Unless one is walking in perfection and never sins, we do need to deal with the fact that we do sin. The way to deal with this inevitable fact of Christian life is to confess our sins to one another and to pray for one another.
[/quote]

You may have something here. Perhaps forgiveness of sin entails both shedding of blood and confession, and Christ’s death means that the shedding of blood is no longer necessary, or something to that effect. But I’m not sure that this is what the scriptures teaches.

However, here in 1John it mentions something that may be revelant, but how exactly should they be interpreted?

But if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
1 John 1:7 (HCSB)

The blood cleanses us from sin. And I can’t help but notice that big IF in this verse.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9 (HCSB)

Here the confession leads to forgiveness of sins, and cleaning from unrighteousness, and again the big IF.

Now, I have a feeling that these verses are probably referring to the same thing, the coming to faith, the repent and be baptised, in some sort of poetic description of the Gospel. But I haven’t had the chance to dig into the context, genre, etc... to make such conclusions. So I’ll contemplate that these are directed to believers, and these verses aren’t describing the same things. Then we have a distinction between cleansing from sin, and forgiveness of sins and cleaning from unrighteousness.

Is there a difference between being cleansed and forgiven?

Pehaps being cleansed means the believer does not bear the guilt of the offence, thus s/he may be saved, but not being forgiven means the offence still carries with it some kind of consequences that the believer must face?

 

[yesha]

David,

I didn't follow something in your last post.

I agree with you that we must confess our sins, but I don't think we need to ask for forgiveness of those sins from God (since He's already freely given us His forgiveness). Rather, the passage in James, I think, is with respect to our relationships with each other. We need to confess our sins "to one another". We need to know that we have asked for, and receive forgiveness from each other.

Having said all of that, I still advocate a willful, deliberate admission of our shortcomings before God in prayer, with the intent of asking for His forgiveness so that we might grow in faith and hope and love (as opposed to, so that He won't destroy us on the day of judgment. I think we've already been assured of that salvation)

You've already clarified that it doesn't make sense to ask for forgiveness, so how can you write 'with the intent of asking for His forgiveness?'

 

[handy]

My emphasis was on just what "forgiveness" actually is, by it's definition. Whenever a debt is "paid for", then that debt has been met, which necessarily means, it has NOT been "forgiven". The idea that God must be "paid" in order to "forgive", makes it seem as though God is incapable of genuine mercy and forgiveness. (Otherwise His forgiveness must be "bought").

I'm going to say something very radical here:

His forgiveness must be bought.

I'm not sure exactly where we get the idea that there was no conditions to be met for God's forgiveness. We see right away that God required sacrifices as a covering for sin with Cain and Abel. God always has put conditions upon our forgiveness, because the wages of sin is and always has been death. The Scriptures are very clear on this.

Praise be to Jesus, He paid the debt of sin, and He satisfied the wages. Which leads to my second statement, but this one maybe not so radical:

Jesus paid for our forgiveness.

Since Jesus paid for our forgiveness, we do not need to either sacrifice or die. But, I fail to see how this releases us from the ...shall we say at the very least...good manners of asking for His forgiveness.

God instituted the sacrifical system to illustrate the need for death to pay for sins. Jesus ultimately paid for the sin of the world. But, in order for His death to be effectual to pay for our sins, we need to ask for forgiveness. We need to ask that God allow the death of Jesus to be sufficient to pay for our sin. That He will freely allow this is no reason not to ask.

Here is an illustration: There is a millionaire. Everyone in the town is indebted to this millionaire to some degree or another, but no one, not one person in the town is able to satisfy whatever debt they owe to the millionaire. Then the millionaire sets up this system: He provides a trust fund that anyone who asks may use to pay off their debt. The money is his, making it essentially that He pays Himself and forgives the debt of everyone else. The way the townspeople get their debt paid for is to simply ask the millionaire to pay for their own debt out of the trust fund. However, anyone who doesn't ask, doesn't get their debt paid for. And, ultimately the millionaire will call in the bills.

Hopefully this illustration can show what I'm trying to say here: We have the debt, it is ours. Christ paid it, the way we make His sacrifice effectual for us, is by asking for forgiveness based upon Christ's work.

 

[yesha]

handy,

Since Jesus paid for our forgiveness, we do not need to either sacrifice or die. But, I fail to see how this releases us from the ...shall we say at the very least...good manners of asking for His forgiveness.

The only evidence of this I have found so far is 1john 1.9

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9 (HCSB)

But this verse doesn't say we should ask for forgiveness, it simply states confess. Even more, we can expect the forgiveness of our confession. There is a difference between confessing and asking for forgiveness. Also it occurred to me, that we can't technically assume from the verse that the opposite is true. That is if we don't confess our sin we can't be forgiven. That is we may be reading more then what this verse is saying if we say that some unconfessed sin (for whatever reason) cannot be forgiven.

Also let us consider
The Parable of the Unforgiving Slave
Matt 18:21-35

The debt was forgiven, and then unforgiven?
Does this suggest that God may forgive our sins, and then due to conduct put them back on our shoulders?

 

[hacim]

Redemption, Salvation and Justification are not the same thing.....Random thoughts....

Paul tell us that he is 'working out his salvation with fear and trembling' Yet Paul is Redeemed by the Blood of Jesus

and as noted scripture tells us to confess our sins.

Scipture also give the power to bind a person in sin and to loose a person's sins.....

Now, an early post mentioned catholics and confession stating that the catholic has to confess to a priest....this seems in accordance with scriptures.....many denominations practice less formal [I think this would be accurate] confession and spirtual direction.......

An old truism "Confession is good for the soul".......rings true and is true......
Sin causes us to be seperated from God....it also has a communal aspect in that we usually sin against another.....stealing your employer's money is a sin against God and yor employer....fogiveness has a temporal dimension.......not just one that affects our salvation...

I have never believed nor found within the scriptures a support for the "Once saved Always saved" theology espoused in churches today.....

When I attended such, I was left disquieted.....your 'feelings' on this are spot on......

We are called to a life in Christ and like St. Paul - we have to perservere....run the race to the finish.....which ulitmately leads one to the the belief in a the need to constantly be turning and returning to Christ.....living a life that recognizes the atoning Sacrafice......

Our lives are written in the Book and we will be called upon to give and accounting........We are redeemed by Jesus, and we work out our salvation.

I believe that God makes us desire to confess our sin so that we grow in grace........

 

[DM]

Hello Yesha.

Sorry - I've been out of pocket for a few days. As for your question about what I meant in the previous post - I actually think handy made a brilliant statement in one of his posts about asking God for forgiveness as being, in the very least - "good manners". That really encapsulates very well the point I was trying to make. (Which makes the comment by handy, quite . . . "handy"). Our confession of our sins is a means by which to express our faith in God's promises - namely, that He has and will "forgive" (i.e. freely pardon) these offenses.

I think where I still have a slightly different take than this on handy (or perhaps, it just sounds slightly different), is that I think we DO pay the wages of sin ourselves . . . namely, death. I think the fact that all human beings die, including those whose sins are "fogiven", reveals something important about the whole situation. I believe that since the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), but that the gift of God is eternal life (same verse), then this must mean that God's promise to forgive our sins, and subsequently raise us from the dead - is deferred to the promised future.

What I mean is this. "Faith is the reality of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1). To "have faith" now, is to experience hope. On the one hand, we believe that God has forgiven our sins, and we also believe that he will forgive our sins. This is the biblical idea of "prolepsis", which is calling something that has not yet occurred, as though it already has. It is this paradigm of faith that extends back to Abraham.

Genesis 15:5,6 "And He (God) took him (Abram) outside and said, 'Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them.' And He said to him, 'So shall your descendants be.'" Then he (Abram) believed in the LORD; and He (God) reckoned it to him (Abraham) as righteousness."

Genesis 17:5 "No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations."

God says to Abraham, "I have made you the father of a multitude of nations." God speaks to Abraham in the past tense, because since God is faithful, then whatever He has promised will surely come to pass. It's only a matter of time - a foregone conclusion. Thus, it can be spoken of in the past tense - as though it had already come to pass, before it actually has. This idea is the means by which we too have faith in God, Who, "calls things that do not exist, as existing." (cf. Romans 4:17). With this understanding, we too, like Abraham before us can be "fully assured that what God has promised, He is able also to perform." (cf. Romans 4:21)

The forgiveness of sins then, corresponds to the resurrection from death to life.

Colossians 2:12 "having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead."

For Christ, the resurrection is a reality of fact. While he was alive before his crucifixion, however, the resurrection was a realtity of faith. Just as Abraham believed God, and God reckoned that as righteousness, so too Jesus believed God and God reckoned that as righteousness. Likewise, for us, our faith will also be reckoned as righteousness.

Colossians 2:13 "When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with him, having forgiven us all our transgressions.

Being "made alive" and having our transgressions "forgiven" are two sides of the same coin.

Colossians 2:14 "having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."

So, Jesus is seen the Law itself - personified - and then "nailed . . . to the cross".

What has been satisfied or propitiated, then, is not God's wrath . . . but rather, the laws wrath. On that, I am in total agreement with handy.

Grace and peace.
David