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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Focus on the Family
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unred typo
Guest
Syntax Vorlon wrote:
You are making a couple of wrong assumptions. First, the original earth didn’t have the huge rifts in the crust under the ocean or the huge mountain ranges we have today. Those happened during and after the flood, so it wouldn’t take as much water to cover the highest mountains of those days. Secondly, the water didn’t all come from rain. The Bible says the great fountains of the deep were broken up, releasing their vast storehouse of water. Also, the sedimentary layer is not going to be continuous around the globe. Newly formed volcanic and pressure upheaval mountains would be washed of their sediments by the waves caused in the displacement of the waters around them. Look at the changes made in a few hours by modern volcanoes, tsunami, earth quakes, fires and floods. How many different geological events around the world could have occurred in the last 4000 years or so?
Syntax Vorlon wrote:
I didn’t say such ‘constants’ were constantly changing. The truth is that we don’t know that there wasn’t something that happened that did change them. A one time anomalous event may have completely reset the carbon date back billions of years and no one was around to observe the happening except a barge full of hibernating creatures waiting to be expelled from their life pod pitch covered cocoon.
Syntax Vorlon wrote:
Nice condescending answer. Is that the best you could do? :roll:
Syntax Vorlon wrote:
What makes you think the oceans have always been as salty as they are? As a matter of fact, the oceans are getting saltier. That tells me that they weren’t always as salty as they are now, duh. If you have freshwater fish in a tank, and you gradually add salt to their water, eventually they will be able to adapt and tolerate quite salty water. After a few generations of tolerating the gradually increasing salt, you might even say they had ‘evolved’ to become salt water fish. Remember the filtration layers I suggested were under Adam’s feet? I think there might have been one or more that were made up of salt. When the fountains of the deep were broken up, they would have been exposed to dissolve in the flood waters that were in those areas. Depending on a lot of factors, that could have been a rather slow process, especially if they were buried by sediments from time to time.
Syntax Vorlon wrote:
No, but the point made was about God being sorry and still not being the one making the mistake, not about His right to punish them. If you would like to discuss God’s ethical right to do whatever He wants with what He created and what belongs to Him, I think we should go to a theology thread. Since you have already raised a difficult question about the rights of superior species, I have a few for you. Did you ever squash a bug who bit you? Did you ever step on an ant simply because he had invaded your space? Do you know what happens to the soul of the creature you killed?
Do you realize how much water that would take, and how much energy would be released were it to rain? It would quite literally boil the seas away.
If this had happened it would have been highly evident in the geologic record. Furthermore, there isn't a great big overall sedimentary level that completely covered the planet anywhere in the past 10000 years.
You are making a couple of wrong assumptions. First, the original earth didn’t have the huge rifts in the crust under the ocean or the huge mountain ranges we have today. Those happened during and after the flood, so it wouldn’t take as much water to cover the highest mountains of those days. Secondly, the water didn’t all come from rain. The Bible says the great fountains of the deep were broken up, releasing their vast storehouse of water. Also, the sedimentary layer is not going to be continuous around the globe. Newly formed volcanic and pressure upheaval mountains would be washed of their sediments by the waves caused in the displacement of the waters around them. Look at the changes made in a few hours by modern volcanoes, tsunami, earth quakes, fires and floods. How many different geological events around the world could have occurred in the last 4000 years or so?
Syntax Vorlon wrote:
There is no reason to believe that the way the universe acts has changed significantly over the past 13 billion years.
I didn’t say such ‘constants’ were constantly changing. The truth is that we don’t know that there wasn’t something that happened that did change them. A one time anomalous event may have completely reset the carbon date back billions of years and no one was around to observe the happening except a barge full of hibernating creatures waiting to be expelled from their life pod pitch covered cocoon.
Syntax Vorlon wrote:
Blah blah blah, sophistry, yada yada.
Nice condescending answer. Is that the best you could do? :roll:
Syntax Vorlon wrote:
....Wow, what a bunch of false and unsupported assumptions. What about the salt levels in the oceans, were all freshwater fish magically able to survive in them? If so why didn't God just make Noah and all the animals magically able to survive the flood? Silly god.
What makes you think the oceans have always been as salty as they are? As a matter of fact, the oceans are getting saltier. That tells me that they weren’t always as salty as they are now, duh. If you have freshwater fish in a tank, and you gradually add salt to their water, eventually they will be able to adapt and tolerate quite salty water. After a few generations of tolerating the gradually increasing salt, you might even say they had ‘evolved’ to become salt water fish. Remember the filtration layers I suggested were under Adam’s feet? I think there might have been one or more that were made up of salt. When the fountains of the deep were broken up, they would have been exposed to dissolve in the flood waters that were in those areas. Depending on a lot of factors, that could have been a rather slow process, especially if they were buried by sediments from time to time.
Syntax Vorlon wrote:
Did you drown them?
No, but the point made was about God being sorry and still not being the one making the mistake, not about His right to punish them. If you would like to discuss God’s ethical right to do whatever He wants with what He created and what belongs to Him, I think we should go to a theology thread. Since you have already raised a difficult question about the rights of superior species, I have a few for you. Did you ever squash a bug who bit you? Did you ever step on an ant simply because he had invaded your space? Do you know what happens to the soul of the creature you killed?
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unred typo
Guest
Khaine wrote:
I don’t think we are on topic here but God didn’t punish His children for what He thought they might do. He observed their behavior, and noted their violence had even affected their thought process to the point they were unable to have a normal, non violent mental activity. Apparently they were irreparably defective and depraved. If you had been living then and watched them doing their disgustingly evil things, perhaps eating your children alive, you might even applaud God’s discriminating good judgment.
So when was the last time you punished your children for what you thought they might do?
I don’t think we are on topic here but God didn’t punish His children for what He thought they might do. He observed their behavior, and noted their violence had even affected their thought process to the point they were unable to have a normal, non violent mental activity. Apparently they were irreparably defective and depraved. If you had been living then and watched them doing their disgustingly evil things, perhaps eating your children alive, you might even applaud God’s discriminating good judgment.
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reznwerks
Guest
why
First, He didn’t say it would end all evil in the world. He said He did it to remove those people whose every imagination was evil.
I don't see much of a difference. If you are going to do something as drastic as flood the entire earth to get rid of evil then I would want to make sure I did a good job. I guess you have to cut some slack for the creator since he was probably still tired from creating a few hundred years earlier.
It was punishment for their sin. I have had to punish my children for doing wrong. I regret having to do it but I’m not the one who did wrong. God was sorry He had to do it, not that He was wrong to remove them from the earth.
I have no problem with removing evil from the earth. What I have a problem with is God as a CEO did an act and he wasn't successful in what he set out to do. We have evil today so the flood didn't accomplish its job.
They were so engrossed in evil they became genetically defective and hopelessly depraved. God knows everything that can possibly be known.
They why didn't he know that Adam and Eve would be tempted by one of his own creation in the garden. If God was a parent this would be considered negligence and no different than letting a loaded weapon on a coffee table with only children there to play with it.
Freewill future actions can not be known. Freewill means they are not determined by God. Future means they haven’t happened until they do. That’s pretty plain and simple, wouldn’t you say?
There can't be free will because God already knows the answer or the outcome.
[/quote:7af26]
unred typo said:reznwerks wrote:Geologists already know the geological strata and what it consists of . It doesn't support a global flood plain and simple…. the Ark has never been proven to ever have existed and using logistics alone would be impossible to do, plain and simple. (etc, etc...his comments in blue type)
There was no one to communicate the tale to since everyone but Noah and his family drowned, and they would have learned of the River Gihon flood from God‘s personal message to them.
Why weren't the Nephilim killed like all the others? Why did Noah even have to know the news.?
They simply passed the account down to their children who passed it down to theirs. Even if some people thought the world was flat doesn’t change the fact that God Himself spoke to Noah and told him to build an ark because He was going to flood the entire surface unlike the previous warning flood, whether the earth was believed to be flat, cylinder, cube or globe.
The geology of the earth is not nearly as “plain and simple†as you would like to believe. Evolutionists have fabricated several nice explanations of what the earth’s layers represent.
No they haven't. It is not rocket science to make a pool of water and throw all kinds of stuff and sediment in it and and watch how it setttles. Surprisingly it settles the same way all the time. That is how they know there wasn't a global flood. Lets not forget that creationists are probably far more likely to create myths regarding "discoveries" than evolutionists. Lets not forget that it is usually scientists or evolutionists themselves that police each other therby exposing the bad apples among their ranks . When was the last time a theist exposed anothers bogus claims?
As you say, though, believing doesn’t make it so. Carbon dating can not be confirmed to be an accurate method since there is no way to absolutely prove that carbon always has decayed at a fixed rate.
It may not be perfect but it is extremely accurate to 70,000 years and that my friend is a whole lot more accurate than belief.
There may be many factors to consider that scientists in the last century have never experienced, such as global flood, meteorite showers, radiation or concentrated chemicals or gasses unknown to present day observers. A mere 200 years doesn’t seem like very much study when thirty times that amount has gone by. Besides that, it isn’t as if the scientific theories are written in stone. They change quite rapidly as new and more conflicting evidence is discovered or frauds are exposed.
I guess you want to take what isn't known , explained , or experienced and use that as evidence of a supreme being. Man doesn't know everything and may not ever know everything. It is OK. As time goes on however man will gain more and more knowledge.
Evolution as a “known regularly occurring process†is only the display of the genetic variety and genius of it’s designer, affectionately known as our heavenly Father God.
Heavenly father God is a concept composed only of belief as no one has ever proved he exists.
I don't believe that I implied that these new breeds of creatures “change back and forth†although some may do that if they haven’t become so specialized that they are now a unique animal that is unable to mate with it’s former cousin. The desire to create varieties and appreciate diversity are attributes that we have inherited from our maker.
Not necessarily. It may be just the way we are.
We are created in His image, you recall. The love of variety isn’t a petty human trait but evidence of creativity and artistic ability, not to mention the fact that it enables animals a chance to survive in their changing environment.
Being created in his image is a human concept. Maybe God was created in our image. God created man on the sixth day and man returned the favor on the seventh.
The logistics of saving a remnant of all animals in the midst of a catastrophic flood is no easy task. I think God is capable of such a feat, even using a wooden boat.
Of course you believe that. You could believe nothing less. As a child I made up all kinds of fantastic stories to explain things. There was no limit to my imagination and when you believe in a God that can do anything , anything is possible or should I say you believe anything is possible.
1,500,000 cubic feet of space is the minimum area that is figured using an 18†cubit.
As I said the ark was about three football fields stacked. That is not a lot of room for every animal to live even if they were stacked. Logistically it is impossible but in a make believe world I guess it could happen.
I guess a lot would be determined by the size of the animals and how much they would need to be fed. Hibernation, using young animals and good packing techniques probably were employed. Animals were lead to the Ark, I suppose the same way butterflies, birds, and other creatures are lead to migrate across whole continents today. Pre flood Earth only had three major rivers around the globe that could conceivably separate areas where animals lived.
You know this how? Geologists don't even know where all the major waterways were let alone know where they might have been before the elusive flood.
All the animals were created in the Eden area and roamed from there to other parts of the planet. Young crocodiles fit in a goldfish bowl. Baby bears aren’t much bigger than sheep. Polar bears may be later descendants of generic bear kinds. The Koala bear certainly might be a post flood evolutionary species. If not, he probably lived where his diet was accommodated by the local vegetation, which Noah brought along. Diet after the flood for carnivores was no doubt dead fish and animals buried in soft sediment. The waters were completely abated from the earth in a year but most of the earth was probably starting to re grow long before that. Nothing like rich flood silt for growing seeds and rooting cuttings. Probably didn’t even need Miracle Grow.
Well I guess that settles it. Have you gotten a copyright on that piece of work?
reznwerks wrote:[quote:7af26]A better question might be why did God say he was going to destroy the world except for Noah and his family to end the evil in the world when clearly it didn't work and then why did he say he was sorry for doing it? God clearly admits to making a mistake and this is impossible for an all powerful all knowing God.
First, He didn’t say it would end all evil in the world. He said He did it to remove those people whose every imagination was evil.
I don't see much of a difference. If you are going to do something as drastic as flood the entire earth to get rid of evil then I would want to make sure I did a good job. I guess you have to cut some slack for the creator since he was probably still tired from creating a few hundred years earlier.
It was punishment for their sin. I have had to punish my children for doing wrong. I regret having to do it but I’m not the one who did wrong. God was sorry He had to do it, not that He was wrong to remove them from the earth.
I have no problem with removing evil from the earth. What I have a problem with is God as a CEO did an act and he wasn't successful in what he set out to do. We have evil today so the flood didn't accomplish its job.
They were so engrossed in evil they became genetically defective and hopelessly depraved. God knows everything that can possibly be known.
They why didn't he know that Adam and Eve would be tempted by one of his own creation in the garden. If God was a parent this would be considered negligence and no different than letting a loaded weapon on a coffee table with only children there to play with it.
Freewill future actions can not be known. Freewill means they are not determined by God. Future means they haven’t happened until they do. That’s pretty plain and simple, wouldn’t you say?
There can't be free will because God already knows the answer or the outcome.
[/quote:7af26]
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unred typo
Guest
Reznwerks wrote:
The Gihon River flood was apparently a warning flood. I don’t know much about the Nephilim. Jasher really doesn’t specifically say who or what animals were washed away, only that 1/3 of the earth was involved. Noah probably heard of the flood from survivors or their descendants. Noah father, Lamech, was 56 years old when Adam died at 912 years old. The history up to this point was still a family account passed from father to son.
Reznwerks wrote:
Are you saying they have experimented with sediment and that is how the earth layers line up or the opposite? I don’t understand what your point is. How does that prove there wasn’t a global flood?
I have a little water/sand sediment box with glass sides. Every time I shake it and it settles, it makes dozens of different layers that are never the same shapes, neither are they the same in width, number or size.
Reznwerks wrote:
Reznwerks wrote:
If man could mix up some existing chemicals and produce a technically ‘living’ bit of protoplasm, or mix a little dna with a cell from some animal to clone an animal, will that prove that God did not create the original Himself from nothing?
Reznwerks wrote:
I didn’t make this “fantastic story†up. It is written in ancient manuscripts painstakingly copied for thousands of years. Maybe the numbers are a little skewed. Maybe the animals were far less specialized a few thousand years ago. The animals were in cages according to Jasher if I remember correctly. How many animals are less than a cat in size? They are not going to need a lot of room or food, especially if they are hibernating most or all of the time.
Reznwerks wrote:
No, I don’t… please feel free to use it when ever you need to explain how things might have happened after the flood.
Reznwerks wrote:
Actually, he wasn’t trying to get rid of evil. As I tried to explain, it was a punishment on the people who were totally depraved. Since none of them survived the flood, I guess they were punished enough. Evil continues to this day so that every person can witness the effects of not following God. When you hate evil as much as humanly possible, I guess you get to move to the next level. This life is just a series of lessons and tests. We still have a lot to learn. As someone once said, “Man doesn't know everything and may not ever know everything. It is OK. As time goes on however man will gain more and more knowledge.â€Â
Reznwerks wrote:
Reznwerks wrote:
No, I don’t think so. The Bible says God knows everything that can be known. He knows every thought and every action as it is happening and He know everything that He can do and He is in control of everything that He chooses to be. He allows things to happen to us to teach us and to lead us to Himself. There is free will because God gives us choices and allows us to follow Him or not.
Why weren't the Nephilim killed like all the others? Why did Noah even have to know the news.?
The Gihon River flood was apparently a warning flood. I don’t know much about the Nephilim. Jasher really doesn’t specifically say who or what animals were washed away, only that 1/3 of the earth was involved. Noah probably heard of the flood from survivors or their descendants. Noah father, Lamech, was 56 years old when Adam died at 912 years old. The history up to this point was still a family account passed from father to son.
Reznwerks wrote:
It is not rocket science to make a pool of water and throw all kinds of stuff and sediment in it and and watch how it setttles. Surprisingly it settles the same way all the time. That is how they know there wasn't a global flood.
Are you saying they have experimented with sediment and that is how the earth layers line up or the opposite? I don’t understand what your point is. How does that prove there wasn’t a global flood?
I have a little water/sand sediment box with glass sides. Every time I shake it and it settles, it makes dozens of different layers that are never the same shapes, neither are they the same in width, number or size.
Reznwerks wrote:
And you can prove that 70,000 date is accurate because of what?It (Carbon dating) may not be perfect but it is extremely accurate to 70,000 years and that my friend is a whole lot more accurate than belief.
Reznwerks wrote:
I guess you want to take what isn't known , explained , or experienced and use that as evidence of a supreme being. Man doesn't know everything and may not ever know everything. It is OK. As time goes on however man will gain more and more knowledge.
If man could mix up some existing chemicals and produce a technically ‘living’ bit of protoplasm, or mix a little dna with a cell from some animal to clone an animal, will that prove that God did not create the original Himself from nothing?
Reznwerks wrote:
Of course you believe that. You could believe nothing less. As a child I made up all kinds of fantastic stories to explain things. There was no limit to my imagination and when you believe in a God that can do anything , anything is possible or should I say you believe anything is possible. As I said the ark was about three football fields stacked. That is not a lot of room for every animal to live even if they were stacked. Logistically it is impossible but in a make believe world I guess it could happen.
I didn’t make this “fantastic story†up. It is written in ancient manuscripts painstakingly copied for thousands of years. Maybe the numbers are a little skewed. Maybe the animals were far less specialized a few thousand years ago. The animals were in cages according to Jasher if I remember correctly. How many animals are less than a cat in size? They are not going to need a lot of room or food, especially if they are hibernating most or all of the time.
Reznwerks wrote:
Well I guess that settles it. Have you gotten a copyright on that piece of work?
No, I don’t… please feel free to use it when ever you need to explain how things might have happened after the flood.
Reznwerks wrote:
If you are going to do something as drastic as flood the entire earth to get rid of evil then I would want to make sure I did a good job. I guess you have to cut some slack for the creator since he was probably still tired from creating a few hundred years earlier. I have no problem with removing evil from the earth. What I have a problem with is God as a CEO did an act and he wasn't successful in what he set out to do. We have evil today so the flood didn't accomplish its job.
Actually, he wasn’t trying to get rid of evil. As I tried to explain, it was a punishment on the people who were totally depraved. Since none of them survived the flood, I guess they were punished enough. Evil continues to this day so that every person can witness the effects of not following God. When you hate evil as much as humanly possible, I guess you get to move to the next level. This life is just a series of lessons and tests. We still have a lot to learn. As someone once said, “Man doesn't know everything and may not ever know everything. It is OK. As time goes on however man will gain more and more knowledge.â€Â
Reznwerks wrote:
You’re confusing innocence and ignorance. Adam and Eve were not naive children. They knew the consequences and chose to disobey. God allowed them to be tested to see what they would do. They failed the test. God could have zapped them into oblivion on the spot but He chose to redeem mankind after they and their descendants experienced the consequences of their disobedience. So, how do you think Adam and Eve would choose now?They why didn't he know that Adam and Eve would be tempted by one of his own creation in the garden. If God was a parent this would be considered negligence and no different than letting a loaded weapon on a coffee table with only children there to play with it.
Reznwerks wrote:
There can't be free will because God already knows the answer or the outcome.
No, I don’t think so. The Bible says God knows everything that can be known. He knows every thought and every action as it is happening and He know everything that He can do and He is in control of everything that He chooses to be. He allows things to happen to us to teach us and to lead us to Himself. There is free will because God gives us choices and allows us to follow Him or not.
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unred typo
Guest
Reznwerks wrote:
The Gihon River flood was apparently a warning flood. I don’t know much about the Nephilim. Jasher really doesn’t specifically say who or what animals were washed away, only that 1/3 of the earth was involved. Noah probably heard of the flood from survivors or their descendants. Noah father, Lamech, was 56 years old when Adam died at 912 years old. The history up to this point was still a family account passed from father to son.
Reznwerks wrote:
Are you saying they have experimented with sediment and that is how the earth layers line up or the opposite? I don’t understand what your point is. How does that prove there wasn’t a global flood?
I have a little water/sand sediment box with glass sides. Every time I shake it and it settles, it makes dozens of different layers that are never the same shapes, neither are they the same in width, number or size.
Reznwerks wrote:
Reznwerks wrote:
If man could mix up some existing chemicals and produce a technically ‘living’ bit of protoplasm, or mix a little dna with a cell from some animal to clone an animal, will that prove that God did not create the original Himself from nothing?
Reznwerks wrote:
I didn’t make this “fantastic story†up. It is written in ancient manuscripts painstakingly copied for thousands of years. Maybe the numbers are a little skewed. Maybe the animals were far less specialized a few thousand years ago. The animals were in cages according to Jasher if I remember correctly. How many animals are less than a cat in size? They are not going to need a lot of room or food, especially if they are hibernating most or all of the time.
Reznwerks wrote:
No, I don’t… please feel free to use it when ever you need to explain how things might have happened after the flood.
Reznwerks wrote:
Actually, he wasn’t trying to get rid of evil. As I tried to explain, it was a punishment on the people who were totally depraved. Since none of them survived the flood, I guess they were punished enough. Evil continues to this day so that every person can witness the effects of not following God. When you hate evil as much as humanly possible, I guess you get to move to the next level. This life is just a series of lessons and tests. We still have a lot to learn. As someone once said, “Man doesn't know everything and may not ever know everything. It is OK. As time goes on however man will gain more and more knowledge.â€Â
Reznwerks wrote:
Reznwerks wrote:
No, I don’t think so. The Bible says God knows everything that can be known. He knows every thought and every action as it is happening and He know everything that He can do and He is in control of everything that He chooses to be. He allows things to happen to us to teach us and to lead us to Himself. There is free will because God gives us choices and allows us to follow Him or not.
Why weren't the Nephilim killed like all the others? Why did Noah even have to know the news.?
The Gihon River flood was apparently a warning flood. I don’t know much about the Nephilim. Jasher really doesn’t specifically say who or what animals were washed away, only that 1/3 of the earth was involved. Noah probably heard of the flood from survivors or their descendants. Noah father, Lamech, was 56 years old when Adam died at 912 years old. The history up to this point was still a family account passed from father to son.
Reznwerks wrote:
It is not rocket science to make a pool of water and throw all kinds of stuff and sediment in it and and watch how it setttles. Surprisingly it settles the same way all the time. That is how they know there wasn't a global flood.
Are you saying they have experimented with sediment and that is how the earth layers line up or the opposite? I don’t understand what your point is. How does that prove there wasn’t a global flood?
I have a little water/sand sediment box with glass sides. Every time I shake it and it settles, it makes dozens of different layers that are never the same shapes, neither are they the same in width, number or size.
Reznwerks wrote:
And you can prove that 70,000 date is accurate because of what?It (Carbon dating) may not be perfect but it is extremely accurate to 70,000 years and that my friend is a whole lot more accurate than belief.
Reznwerks wrote:
I guess you want to take what isn't known , explained , or experienced and use that as evidence of a supreme being. Man doesn't know everything and may not ever know everything. It is OK. As time goes on however man will gain more and more knowledge.
If man could mix up some existing chemicals and produce a technically ‘living’ bit of protoplasm, or mix a little dna with a cell from some animal to clone an animal, will that prove that God did not create the original Himself from nothing?
Reznwerks wrote:
Of course you believe that. You could believe nothing less. As a child I made up all kinds of fantastic stories to explain things. There was no limit to my imagination and when you believe in a God that can do anything , anything is possible or should I say you believe anything is possible. As I said the ark was about three football fields stacked. That is not a lot of room for every animal to live even if they were stacked. Logistically it is impossible but in a make believe world I guess it could happen.
I didn’t make this “fantastic story†up. It is written in ancient manuscripts painstakingly copied for thousands of years. Maybe the numbers are a little skewed. Maybe the animals were far less specialized a few thousand years ago. The animals were in cages according to Jasher if I remember correctly. How many animals are less than a cat in size? They are not going to need a lot of room or food, especially if they are hibernating most or all of the time.
Reznwerks wrote:
Well I guess that settles it. Have you gotten a copyright on that piece of work?
No, I don’t… please feel free to use it when ever you need to explain how things might have happened after the flood.
Reznwerks wrote:
If you are going to do something as drastic as flood the entire earth to get rid of evil then I would want to make sure I did a good job. I guess you have to cut some slack for the creator since he was probably still tired from creating a few hundred years earlier. I have no problem with removing evil from the earth. What I have a problem with is God as a CEO did an act and he wasn't successful in what he set out to do. We have evil today so the flood didn't accomplish its job.
Actually, he wasn’t trying to get rid of evil. As I tried to explain, it was a punishment on the people who were totally depraved. Since none of them survived the flood, I guess they were punished enough. Evil continues to this day so that every person can witness the effects of not following God. When you hate evil as much as humanly possible, I guess you get to move to the next level. This life is just a series of lessons and tests. We still have a lot to learn. As someone once said, “Man doesn't know everything and may not ever know everything. It is OK. As time goes on however man will gain more and more knowledge.â€Â
Reznwerks wrote:
You’re confusing innocence and ignorance. Adam and Eve were not naive children. They knew the consequences and chose to disobey. God allowed them to be tested to see what they would do. They failed the test. God could have zapped them into oblivion on the spot but He chose to redeem mankind after they and their descendants experienced the consequences of their disobedience. So, how do you think Adam and Eve would choose now?They why didn't he know that Adam and Eve would be tempted by one of his own creation in the garden. If God was a parent this would be considered negligence and no different than letting a loaded weapon on a coffee table with only children there to play with it.
Reznwerks wrote:
There can't be free will because God already knows the answer or the outcome.
No, I don’t think so. The Bible says God knows everything that can be known. He knows every thought and every action as it is happening and He know everything that He can do and He is in control of everything that He chooses to be. He allows things to happen to us to teach us and to lead us to Himself. There is free will because God gives us choices and allows us to follow Him or not.
R
reznwerks
Guest
answers
Are you saying they have experimented with sediment and that is how the earth layers line up or the opposite? I don’t understand what your point is. How does that prove there wasn’t a global flood?
I have a little water/sand sediment box with glass sides. Every time I shake it and it settles, it makes dozens of different layers that are never the same shapes, neither are they the same in width, number or size.
If you take a pool of water and throw a mix of heavy stuff and lighter stuff it will settle in order of weight. The strata shows smaller less complicated organisms settling at the bottom first followed by heavier more complicated organisms at he top. This testifies to the accuracy of of the evolutionary cycle for one and the lack of a mix of organisms is a testament to the fact that a worldwide flood never happened.
Reznwerks wrote:
I don't have to prove anything. I have enough confidence that those who study the process and have nothing gain by proving a falsehood and have come to the conclusion that carbon 14 is accurate far beyond the 6000 year earth claim. To be more specific they know rate of decay for the isotope. If you don't want to accept any accepted facts then continue living in a make believe world. Remember everyone is entitled to their own opinions but not their own facts.
Reznwerks wrote:
If man could mix up some existing chemicals and produce a technically ‘living’ bit of protoplasm, or mix a little dna with a cell from some animal to clone an animal, will that prove that God did not create the original Himself from nothing?
It will prove that a God was not needed to create man.
Reznwerks wrote:
I didn’t make this “fantastic story†up. It is written in ancient manuscripts painstakingly copied for thousands of years. Maybe the numbers are a little skewed. Maybe the animals were far less specialized a few thousand years ago. The animals were in cages according to Jasher if I remember correctly. How many animals are less than a cat in size? They are not going to need a lot of room or food, especially if they are hibernating most or all of the time.
Your "ancient" manuscripts are about 3000 years old. It is "claimed" they were passed down and painstakingly copied over and over. However I will now play your game and ask you how do you know this is accurate. You weren't there, no one alive was there. We don't know how accurate the stories are nor how accurate the copying was.
Reznwerks wrote:
No, I don’t… please feel free to use it when ever you need to explain how things might have happened after the flood.
I haven't seen any evidence that a global flood occurred so I won't be using it , thank you very much.
Reznwerks wrote:
Actually, he wasn’t trying to get rid of evil. As I tried to explain, it was a punishment on the people who were totally depraved. Since none of them survived the flood, I guess they were punished enough. Evil continues to this day so that every person can witness the effects of not following God. When you hate evil as much as humanly possible, I guess you get to move to the next level. This life is just a series of lessons and tests. We still have a lot to learn. As someone once said, “Man doesn't know everything and may not ever know everything. It is OK. As time goes on however man will gain more and more knowledge.â€Â
I think you need to go back and read the bible again.
Reznwerks wrote:
Does this really make sense to you?
Reznwerks wrote:
No, I don’t think so. The Bible says God knows everything that can be known. He knows every thought and every action as it is happening and He know everything that He can do and He is in control of everything that He chooses to be. He allows things to happen to us to teach us and to lead us to Himself. There is free will because God gives us choices and allows us to follow Him or not.
Then I am correct. God knows the outcome and if he knows the outcome there is no free will.[/quote:d7929]
unred typo said:Reznwerks wrote:Why weren't the Nephilim killed like all the others? Why did Noah even have to know the news.?
The Gihon River flood was apparently a warning flood. I don’t know much about the Nephilim. Jasher really doesn’t specifically say who or what animals were washed away, only that 1/3 of the earth was involved. Noah probably heard of the flood from survivors or their descendants. Noah father, Lamech, was 56 years old when Adam died at 912 years old. The history up to this point was still a family account passed from father to son.
I'm not talking about the Gihon flood. I'm talking about the flood of Noah in chronological order. After the flood of Noah he encountered the Nephilim.
Reznwerks wrote: [quote:d7929] It is not rocket science to make a pool of water and throw all kinds of stuff and sediment in it and and watch how it setttles. Surprisingly it settles the same way all the time. That is how they know there wasn't a global flood.
Are you saying they have experimented with sediment and that is how the earth layers line up or the opposite? I don’t understand what your point is. How does that prove there wasn’t a global flood?
I have a little water/sand sediment box with glass sides. Every time I shake it and it settles, it makes dozens of different layers that are never the same shapes, neither are they the same in width, number or size.
If you take a pool of water and throw a mix of heavy stuff and lighter stuff it will settle in order of weight. The strata shows smaller less complicated organisms settling at the bottom first followed by heavier more complicated organisms at he top. This testifies to the accuracy of of the evolutionary cycle for one and the lack of a mix of organisms is a testament to the fact that a worldwide flood never happened.
Reznwerks wrote:
And you can prove that 70,000 date is accurate because of what?It (Carbon dating) may not be perfect but it is extremely accurate to 70,000 years and that my friend is a whole lot more accurate than belief.
I don't have to prove anything. I have enough confidence that those who study the process and have nothing gain by proving a falsehood and have come to the conclusion that carbon 14 is accurate far beyond the 6000 year earth claim. To be more specific they know rate of decay for the isotope. If you don't want to accept any accepted facts then continue living in a make believe world. Remember everyone is entitled to their own opinions but not their own facts.
Reznwerks wrote:
I guess you want to take what isn't known , explained , or experienced and use that as evidence of a supreme being. Man doesn't know everything and may not ever know everything. It is OK. As time goes on however man will gain more and more knowledge.
If man could mix up some existing chemicals and produce a technically ‘living’ bit of protoplasm, or mix a little dna with a cell from some animal to clone an animal, will that prove that God did not create the original Himself from nothing?
It will prove that a God was not needed to create man.
Reznwerks wrote:
Of course you believe that. You could believe nothing less. As a child I made up all kinds of fantastic stories to explain things. There was no limit to my imagination and when you believe in a God that can do anything , anything is possible or should I say you believe anything is possible. As I said the ark was about three football fields stacked. That is not a lot of room for every animal to live even if they were stacked. Logistically it is impossible but in a make believe world I guess it could happen.
I didn’t make this “fantastic story†up. It is written in ancient manuscripts painstakingly copied for thousands of years. Maybe the numbers are a little skewed. Maybe the animals were far less specialized a few thousand years ago. The animals were in cages according to Jasher if I remember correctly. How many animals are less than a cat in size? They are not going to need a lot of room or food, especially if they are hibernating most or all of the time.
Your "ancient" manuscripts are about 3000 years old. It is "claimed" they were passed down and painstakingly copied over and over. However I will now play your game and ask you how do you know this is accurate. You weren't there, no one alive was there. We don't know how accurate the stories are nor how accurate the copying was.
Reznwerks wrote:
Well I guess that settles it. Have you gotten a copyright on that piece of work?
No, I don’t… please feel free to use it when ever you need to explain how things might have happened after the flood.
I haven't seen any evidence that a global flood occurred so I won't be using it , thank you very much.
Reznwerks wrote:
If you are going to do something as drastic as flood the entire earth to get rid of evil then I would want to make sure I did a good job. I guess you have to cut some slack for the creator since he was probably still tired from creating a few hundred years earlier. I have no problem with removing evil from the earth. What I have a problem with is God as a CEO did an act and he wasn't successful in what he set out to do. We have evil today so the flood didn't accomplish its job.
Actually, he wasn’t trying to get rid of evil. As I tried to explain, it was a punishment on the people who were totally depraved. Since none of them survived the flood, I guess they were punished enough. Evil continues to this day so that every person can witness the effects of not following God. When you hate evil as much as humanly possible, I guess you get to move to the next level. This life is just a series of lessons and tests. We still have a lot to learn. As someone once said, “Man doesn't know everything and may not ever know everything. It is OK. As time goes on however man will gain more and more knowledge.â€Â
I think you need to go back and read the bible again.
Reznwerks wrote:
You’re confusing innocence and ignorance. Adam and Eve were not naive children. They knew the consequences and chose to disobey. God allowed them to be tested to see what they would do. They failed the test. God could have zapped them into oblivion on the spot but He chose to redeem mankind after they and their descendants experienced the consequences of their disobedience. So, how do you think Adam and Eve would choose now?They why didn't he know that Adam and Eve would be tempted by one of his own creation in the garden. If God was a parent this would be considered negligence and no different than letting a loaded weapon on a coffee table with only children there to play with it.
Does this really make sense to you?
Reznwerks wrote:
There can't be free will because God already knows the answer or the outcome.
No, I don’t think so. The Bible says God knows everything that can be known. He knows every thought and every action as it is happening and He know everything that He can do and He is in control of everything that He chooses to be. He allows things to happen to us to teach us and to lead us to Himself. There is free will because God gives us choices and allows us to follow Him or not.
Then I am correct. God knows the outcome and if he knows the outcome there is no free will.[/quote:d7929]
U
unred typo
Guest
Reznwerks wrote:
Reznwerks wrote:
Did you even read my explanation? Your precious “evolutionary cycle†is not the only viable solution to the mystery of the earth’s various layers. The lower layers of simple organisms were created in the original masterpiece, not formed by the flood of Noah. They were in their own ecosystems as part of the delicate balance of the filtration of waste and recycling of the water and nutrients for the all living things. God created it in perfect synchronization. At the lowest levels, below the underground ‘fountains of the deep’, were the most simple organisms, from bacteria to one celled protozoa. Above those were the more specialized earth dwelling creatures who broke down and recycled organic matter and waste. In the underground fountains, you could find crustaceans and mollusks, etc. There were underground salt beds to soften and purify the water. There were other layers designed to remove the salt from the water. It was more than good, it was very good. And that was God’s humble opinion. When the flood came, guess what? The lowest layers of simple life forms that lived underground stayed underground and more layers were dumped on top. The more complex drowned animals were then deposited in sediments above that. The fastest runners and best swimmers were on the top of the pile. Naturally, animals remained relatively separated by their respective habitats. The earth is a big place. There is no need to expect that all animals, people and plant life would be dumped into one mass grave. There are many places where they are indeed buried in this fashion though.
Reznwerks wrote:
I have seen plenty who seem desperate to prove God doesn’t exist. Motive enough to disregard anomalies and see the results in the best possible evolutionary light. They might know the present rate of decay, possibly. They also know that several factors skew those decay rates. They don’t know all the factors that mess up their dates. If you were to list all the anomalies that have turned up from carbon dating, you would have at least an entire book. Believe what you want about carbon 14. It’s your choice. You should at least do a web search for “anomaly carbon dating†for an unbiased site.
Reznwerks wrote:
Reznwerks wrote:
Read them. You would only have to ask God to show you the truth revealed in them to know they are accurate, if you were willing to take them for what they are. When something is within the historical span of time, you can check the details mentioned against archeological findings. You have mention of the history of the nation of Israel in other writings throughout time. If you examine the evidence while keeping the Biblical and Jasher records in mind, you will find the proof you need to believe. Of course you will have to make allowances for evolutionary zealots who pack their findings with so called reliable dates that make 3000 years look like yesterday. 3000 years is a long, long, long time to keep a history intact and it takes the kind of dedication and effort that those who realize it’s importance are willing to expend.
Reznwerks wrote:
Reznwerks wrote:
I think I see your problem. How did you read this:
Chapter/verse please?I'm not talking about the Gihon flood. I'm talking about the flood of Noah in chronological order. After the flood of Noah he encountered the Nephilim.
Reznwerks wrote:
If you take a pool of water and throw a mix of heavy stuff and lighter stuff it will settle in order of weight. The strata shows smaller less complicated organisms settling at the bottom first followed by heavier more complicated organisms at he top. This testifies to the accuracy of of the evolutionary cycle for one and the lack of a mix of organisms is a testament to the fact that a worldwide flood never happened.
Did you even read my explanation? Your precious “evolutionary cycle†is not the only viable solution to the mystery of the earth’s various layers. The lower layers of simple organisms were created in the original masterpiece, not formed by the flood of Noah. They were in their own ecosystems as part of the delicate balance of the filtration of waste and recycling of the water and nutrients for the all living things. God created it in perfect synchronization. At the lowest levels, below the underground ‘fountains of the deep’, were the most simple organisms, from bacteria to one celled protozoa. Above those were the more specialized earth dwelling creatures who broke down and recycled organic matter and waste. In the underground fountains, you could find crustaceans and mollusks, etc. There were underground salt beds to soften and purify the water. There were other layers designed to remove the salt from the water. It was more than good, it was very good. And that was God’s humble opinion. When the flood came, guess what? The lowest layers of simple life forms that lived underground stayed underground and more layers were dumped on top. The more complex drowned animals were then deposited in sediments above that. The fastest runners and best swimmers were on the top of the pile. Naturally, animals remained relatively separated by their respective habitats. The earth is a big place. There is no need to expect that all animals, people and plant life would be dumped into one mass grave. There are many places where they are indeed buried in this fashion though.
Reznwerks wrote:
I don't have to prove anything. I have enough confidence that those who study the process and have nothing gain by proving a falsehood and have come to the conclusion that carbon 14 is accurate far beyond the 6000 year earth claim. To be more specific they know rate of decay for the isotope. If you don't want to accept any accepted facts then continue living in a make believe world. Remember everyone is entitled to their own opinions but not their own facts.
I have seen plenty who seem desperate to prove God doesn’t exist. Motive enough to disregard anomalies and see the results in the best possible evolutionary light. They might know the present rate of decay, possibly. They also know that several factors skew those decay rates. They don’t know all the factors that mess up their dates. If you were to list all the anomalies that have turned up from carbon dating, you would have at least an entire book. Believe what you want about carbon 14. It’s your choice. You should at least do a web search for “anomaly carbon dating†for an unbiased site.
Reznwerks wrote:
I see. That’s the bottom line, isn’t it? So if I can make a test tube baby, I can prove mothers are unnecessary for the production of babies? Does that prove millions of babies were not born to mothers? Be careful… Mother’s Day is Sunday.It will prove that a God was not needed to create man.
Reznwerks wrote:
Your "ancient" manuscripts are about 3000 years old. It is "claimed" they were passed down and painstakingly copied over and over. However I will now play your game and ask you how do you know this is accurate. You weren't there, no one alive was there. We don't know how accurate the stories are nor how accurate the copying was.
Read them. You would only have to ask God to show you the truth revealed in them to know they are accurate, if you were willing to take them for what they are. When something is within the historical span of time, you can check the details mentioned against archeological findings. You have mention of the history of the nation of Israel in other writings throughout time. If you examine the evidence while keeping the Biblical and Jasher records in mind, you will find the proof you need to believe. Of course you will have to make allowances for evolutionary zealots who pack their findings with so called reliable dates that make 3000 years look like yesterday. 3000 years is a long, long, long time to keep a history intact and it takes the kind of dedication and effort that those who realize it’s importance are willing to expend.
Reznwerks wrote:
There’s nothing wrong with my reading. Maybe the straw man arguments you have made don’t hold up against a sensible rendering of the text.I think you need to go back and read the bible again.
Reznwerks wrote:
Then I am correct. God knows the outcome and if he knows the outcome there is no free will.
I think I see your problem. How did you read this:
and come up with your reply? I never once mentioned that God knows the outcome of free will actions. If God knew the future, it would have already happened in some tangible way. The future has not happened and the future will always be unknown and unknowable since there is nothing to know. God knows what He will do in the end to bring all things back into His control and can take control whenever and how ever He sees fit to do so. He’s far too complex to play with dolls, even living, automated ones. How long would you be amused by a puppet on your own hand? Give God a little credit for being more than a simpleton. He created your brain, now use it.No, I don’t think so. The Bible says God knows everything that can be known. He knows every thought and every action as it is happening and He knows everything that He can do and He is in control of everything that He chooses to be. He allows things to happen to us to teach us and to lead us to Himself. There is free will because God gives us choices and allows us to follow Him or not.
R
reznwerks
Guest
nephilim
Did you even read my explanation? Your precious “evolutionary cycle†is not the only viable solution to the mystery of the earth’s various layers. The lower layers of simple organisms were created in the original masterpiece, not formed by the flood of Noah.
Maybe we are getting somewhere.
They were in their own ecosystems as part of the delicate balance of the filtration of waste and recycling of the water and nutrients for the all living things. God created it in perfect synchronization.
If this makes you happy then fine as it bears out scientifically.
At the lowest levels, below the underground ‘fountains of the deep’, were the most simple organisms, from bacteria to one celled protozoa. Above those were the more specialized earth dwelling creatures who broke down and recycled organic matter and waste. In the underground fountains, you could find crustaceans and mollusks, etc. There were underground salt beds to soften and purify the water. There were other layers designed to remove the salt from the water. It was more than good, it was very good. And that was God’s humble opinion. When the flood came, guess what? The lowest layers of simple life forms that lived underground stayed underground and more layers were dumped on top. The more complex drowned animals were then deposited in sediments above that. The fastest runners and best swimmers were on the top of the pile. Naturally, animals remained relatively separated by their respective habitats. The earth is a big place. There is no need to expect that all animals, people and plant life would be dumped into one mass grave. There are many places where they are indeed buried in this fashion though.
Just when I thougt we getting somewhere. The sad fact is that a flood that you claim was real would not deposit the animals in the fashion you admit is a fact. Not only would the animals be all mixed up but the geological strata testifies to the timeline in which they lived as all animals that have ever lived did not all live at the same time.
Reznwerks wrote:
I have seen plenty who seem desperate to prove God doesn’t exist. Motive enough to disregard anomalies and see the results in the best possible evolutionary light.
Have you ever considered the theists motives? What do scientists have to gain by disproving God? What reward is there for them. If God exists they win no matter what. God is not going to punish anyone for the silly fault of not believing using the mind that God gave them to come to conclusions presented before them.Now what motives are present to the believer to pass on the stories and beliefs as true. If there is no God then the promises of everlasting life are not true. I can't think of a more powerful motivator to insist that what one has based their life on their beliefs on and in fact their very being on. Finding out your 401 that you've worked your whole life for is now worthless is not for the fainthearted. I know if I thought this way I wouldn't want the belief shattered. Afterall there is either the belief or their is a mistake and it is not true. So when you look at motive for something like this who has the bigger stake in it? Now going beyond the belief system lets look at who profits from perprating the belief. Belief is big business. Their are salaries to pay, building to upkeep, in some cases their has been and continues to be political and social power.
They might know the present rate of decay, possibly. They also know that several factors skew those decay rates. They don’t know all the factors that mess up their dates. If you were to list all the anomalies that have turned up from carbon dating, you would have at least an entire book. Believe what you want about carbon 14. It’s your choice. You should at least do a web search for “anomaly carbon dating†for an unbiased site.
I don't need to as C14 is accurate enough to throw the idea of a 6000 year old earth out the window.
Reznwerks wrote:
You jump to conclusions a lot don't you? The bottom line is just that and if proved means that God was not needed to create man.
Reznwerks wrote:
Read them. You would only have to ask God to show you the truth revealed in them to know they are accurate, if you were willing to take them for what they are. When something is within the historical span of time, you can check the details mentioned against archeological findings.
We have and some things are not accurate. Some things are accurate and some things are not.The bible is not a textbook.
You have mention of the history of the nation of Israel in other writings throughout time.
There is not a lot of ancient history about Israel outside of the bible
If you examine the evidence while keeping the Biblical and Jasher records in mind, you will find the proof you need to believe.
Why the need to "believe"? The facts should be readily available so as to accept the facts for what they are.
Of course you will have to make allowances for evolutionary zealots who pack their findings with so called reliable dates that make 3000 years look like yesterday. 3000 years is a long, long, long time to keep a history intact and it takes the kind of dedication and effort that those who realize it’s importance are willing to expend.
However you are willing to accept the bible as original and accurate for far longer. As far as history is concerned the Egyptians kept remarkable records going back at least this long and the Romans as well kept remarkably detailed records.
Reznwerks wrote:
They are not straw man arguements they are simply facts and claims that contradict each other or are out and out errors and the only way to accept them as being valid is to insert all kinds of excuses such as " we don't understand what was written" or to imply that what we are reading is "not really what we think" we are reading or that the "original" wording was this and not that or the the "audience" was this and not that or the "atmosphere" was this and not that, the numbering system used was different when it was written etc etc etc. In short you have to bend over backwards to hold on the claim that their are no errors or contradictions in the bible.
Reznwerks wrote:
I think I see your problem. How did you read this:
Then God is not who he is claimed to be. He does not know all rendering him imperfect.
The future has not happened and the future will always be unknown and unknowable since there is nothing to know. God knows what He will do in the end to bring all things back into His control and can take control whenever and how ever He sees fit to do so. He’s far too complex to play with dolls, even living, automated ones.
If God is too complex to play with dolls then why does he treat man the way he does using the bible. He can get rid of Satan anytime, Jesus didn't have to die on the cross. Can you tell me how dying on the cross saved man from his sins. Who demanded that Jesus die on the cross? It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority punishment or reward.
In a nutshell, God had to kill Himself to appease Himself so that He would not have to roast us, His beloved creations, in HELL forever.
He loves us more than we can ever comprehend, but if we don't return His affections, He will make us regret it for eternity.
Now you don't call that playing with dolls?
How long would you be amused by a puppet on your own hand? Give God a little credit for being more than a simpleton. He created your brain, now use it.
God created man on the sixth day and man returned the favor on the seventh.[/quote:d24f4]
unred typo said:Reznwerks wrote:Chapter/verse please?I'm not talking about the Gihon flood. I'm talking about the flood of Noah in chronological order. After the flood of Noah he encountered the Nephilim.
"The Nefilim were upon the Earth in those days and thereafter too. Those sons of the gods who cohabited with the daughters of the Adam, and they bore children into them. They were the Mighty Ones of Eternity, the People of the Shem."
- Genesis 6:4
Reznwerks wrote: [quote:d24f4] If you take a pool of water and throw a mix of heavy stuff and lighter stuff it will settle in order of weight. The strata shows smaller less complicated organisms settling at the bottom first followed by heavier more complicated organisms at he top. This testifies to the accuracy of of the evolutionary cycle for one and the lack of a mix of organisms is a testament to the fact that a worldwide flood never happened.
Did you even read my explanation? Your precious “evolutionary cycle†is not the only viable solution to the mystery of the earth’s various layers. The lower layers of simple organisms were created in the original masterpiece, not formed by the flood of Noah.
Maybe we are getting somewhere.
They were in their own ecosystems as part of the delicate balance of the filtration of waste and recycling of the water and nutrients for the all living things. God created it in perfect synchronization.
If this makes you happy then fine as it bears out scientifically.
At the lowest levels, below the underground ‘fountains of the deep’, were the most simple organisms, from bacteria to one celled protozoa. Above those were the more specialized earth dwelling creatures who broke down and recycled organic matter and waste. In the underground fountains, you could find crustaceans and mollusks, etc. There were underground salt beds to soften and purify the water. There were other layers designed to remove the salt from the water. It was more than good, it was very good. And that was God’s humble opinion. When the flood came, guess what? The lowest layers of simple life forms that lived underground stayed underground and more layers were dumped on top. The more complex drowned animals were then deposited in sediments above that. The fastest runners and best swimmers were on the top of the pile. Naturally, animals remained relatively separated by their respective habitats. The earth is a big place. There is no need to expect that all animals, people and plant life would be dumped into one mass grave. There are many places where they are indeed buried in this fashion though.
Just when I thougt we getting somewhere. The sad fact is that a flood that you claim was real would not deposit the animals in the fashion you admit is a fact. Not only would the animals be all mixed up but the geological strata testifies to the timeline in which they lived as all animals that have ever lived did not all live at the same time.
Reznwerks wrote:
I don't have to prove anything. I have enough confidence that those who study the process and have nothing gain by proving a falsehood and have come to the conclusion that carbon 14 is accurate far beyond the 6000 year earth claim. To be more specific they know rate of decay for the isotope. If you don't want to accept any accepted facts then continue living in a make believe world. Remember everyone is entitled to their own opinions but not their own facts.
I have seen plenty who seem desperate to prove God doesn’t exist. Motive enough to disregard anomalies and see the results in the best possible evolutionary light.
Have you ever considered the theists motives? What do scientists have to gain by disproving God? What reward is there for them. If God exists they win no matter what. God is not going to punish anyone for the silly fault of not believing using the mind that God gave them to come to conclusions presented before them.Now what motives are present to the believer to pass on the stories and beliefs as true. If there is no God then the promises of everlasting life are not true. I can't think of a more powerful motivator to insist that what one has based their life on their beliefs on and in fact their very being on. Finding out your 401 that you've worked your whole life for is now worthless is not for the fainthearted. I know if I thought this way I wouldn't want the belief shattered. Afterall there is either the belief or their is a mistake and it is not true. So when you look at motive for something like this who has the bigger stake in it? Now going beyond the belief system lets look at who profits from perprating the belief. Belief is big business. Their are salaries to pay, building to upkeep, in some cases their has been and continues to be political and social power.
They might know the present rate of decay, possibly. They also know that several factors skew those decay rates. They don’t know all the factors that mess up their dates. If you were to list all the anomalies that have turned up from carbon dating, you would have at least an entire book. Believe what you want about carbon 14. It’s your choice. You should at least do a web search for “anomaly carbon dating†for an unbiased site.
I don't need to as C14 is accurate enough to throw the idea of a 6000 year old earth out the window.
Reznwerks wrote:
I see. That’s the bottom line, isn’t it? So if I can make a test tube baby, I can prove mothers are unnecessary for the production of babies? Does that prove millions of babies were not born to mothers? Be careful… Mother’s Day is Sunday.It will prove that a God was not needed to create man.
You jump to conclusions a lot don't you? The bottom line is just that and if proved means that God was not needed to create man.
Reznwerks wrote:
Your "ancient" manuscripts are about 3000 years old. It is "claimed" they were passed down and painstakingly copied over and over. However I will now play your game and ask you how do you know this is accurate. You weren't there, no one alive was there. We don't know how accurate the stories are nor how accurate the copying was.
Read them. You would only have to ask God to show you the truth revealed in them to know they are accurate, if you were willing to take them for what they are. When something is within the historical span of time, you can check the details mentioned against archeological findings.
We have and some things are not accurate. Some things are accurate and some things are not.The bible is not a textbook.
You have mention of the history of the nation of Israel in other writings throughout time.
There is not a lot of ancient history about Israel outside of the bible
If you examine the evidence while keeping the Biblical and Jasher records in mind, you will find the proof you need to believe.
Why the need to "believe"? The facts should be readily available so as to accept the facts for what they are.
Of course you will have to make allowances for evolutionary zealots who pack their findings with so called reliable dates that make 3000 years look like yesterday. 3000 years is a long, long, long time to keep a history intact and it takes the kind of dedication and effort that those who realize it’s importance are willing to expend.
However you are willing to accept the bible as original and accurate for far longer. As far as history is concerned the Egyptians kept remarkable records going back at least this long and the Romans as well kept remarkably detailed records.
Reznwerks wrote:
There’s nothing wrong with my reading. Maybe the straw man arguments you have made don’t hold up against a sensible rendering of the text.I think you need to go back and read the bible again.
They are not straw man arguements they are simply facts and claims that contradict each other or are out and out errors and the only way to accept them as being valid is to insert all kinds of excuses such as " we don't understand what was written" or to imply that what we are reading is "not really what we think" we are reading or that the "original" wording was this and not that or the the "audience" was this and not that or the "atmosphere" was this and not that, the numbering system used was different when it was written etc etc etc. In short you have to bend over backwards to hold on the claim that their are no errors or contradictions in the bible.
Reznwerks wrote:
Then I am correct. God knows the outcome and if he knows the outcome there is no free will.
I think I see your problem. How did you read this:
and come up with your reply? I never once mentioned that God knows the outcome of free will actions. If God knew the future, it would have already happened in some tangible way.No, I don’t think so. The Bible says God knows everything that can be known. He knows every thought and every action as it is happening and He knows everything that He can do and He is in control of everything that He chooses to be. He allows things to happen to us to teach us and to lead us to Himself. There is free will because God gives us choices and allows us to follow Him or not.
If God knows the outcome it is a done deal. There is no free will.
Then God is not who he is claimed to be. He does not know all rendering him imperfect.
The future has not happened and the future will always be unknown and unknowable since there is nothing to know. God knows what He will do in the end to bring all things back into His control and can take control whenever and how ever He sees fit to do so. He’s far too complex to play with dolls, even living, automated ones.
If God is too complex to play with dolls then why does he treat man the way he does using the bible. He can get rid of Satan anytime, Jesus didn't have to die on the cross. Can you tell me how dying on the cross saved man from his sins. Who demanded that Jesus die on the cross? It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority punishment or reward.
In a nutshell, God had to kill Himself to appease Himself so that He would not have to roast us, His beloved creations, in HELL forever.
He loves us more than we can ever comprehend, but if we don't return His affections, He will make us regret it for eternity.
Now you don't call that playing with dolls?
How long would you be amused by a puppet on your own hand? Give God a little credit for being more than a simpleton. He created your brain, now use it.
God created man on the sixth day and man returned the favor on the seventh.[/quote:d24f4]
U
unred typo
Guest
Reznwerks wrote:
Reznwerks wrote:
Reznwerks wrote:
Scientists have no motive as scientists to disprove God. It is the anonymous atheistic element in the scientific community that has such intentions. Corruption has permeated the church from the top down and it is in a sorry state today, to be sure. I wonder if some of the leaders actually have lost faith and only perpetuate what they believe is a myth to gain power and prestige and the almighty buck. Jesus intimated that it was likely that faith would be non existent upon his return. All these sad events can’t change what is true, however.
I am not one who believes in ‘belief’ in and of itself. I feel it is following the teaching of Christ that saves a person, not the expressed belief in certain facts about Him. Saying you believe in Christ and then living a life that contradicts everything He taught is ludicrous. While God probably will not punish sincerely held beliefs, if you don’t believe He exists, and the Christ was His Son whose word explains what pleases Him, your chances of doing what He demands are reduced. If you make godless theories that lead others to do ungodly things, you may be held accountable or you may suffer the loss of your children and friends to the results of their godless living. God basically only requires that you forgive as you have been forgiven by God, and that you “do justly, love mercy and walk humbly with your God.†I don’t think spitting in His eye is quite what He had in mind. Even most dogs know not to bite the hand that feeds them.
Reznwerks wrote:
Reznwerks wrote:
Some things were ‘disproven’ in the Bible by archeological finds only to be later reinstated when further studies or new findings shed more light on the situation. The reason to believe is the same as for those who believe in the TOE. You will interpret information in the light of what you believe. It is only when faced with undeniable contradictory facts that you will abandon long held beliefs, whether Biblical or scientific. You take certain facts with a grain of salt when it comes to your personally held convictions, as does everyone.
Reznwerks wrote:
Reznwerks wrote:
Reznwerks wrote:
I’ve heard the term somewhere but am foggy about what it means. In my KJV it says ‘giants’. I haven’t really made up my mind on that aspect of the account."The Nefilim were upon the Earth in those days and thereafter too. Those sons of the gods who cohabited with the daughters of the Adam, and they bore children into them. They were the Mighty Ones of Eternity, the People of the Shem."
Reznwerks wrote:
I don’t have a complete list of all the findings and all the layers, if such a list exists. If I had one I’m sure I could theorize a Bible friendly hypothesis from it.Just when I thougt we getting somewhere. The sad fact is that a flood that you claim was real would not deposit the animals in the fashion you admit is a fact. Not only would the animals be all mixed up but the geological strata testifies to the timeline in which they lived as all animals that have ever lived did not all live at the same time.
Reznwerks wrote:
Have you ever considered the theists motives? What do scientists have to gain by disproving God? What reward is there for them. If God exists they win no matter what. God is not going to punish anyone for the silly fault of not believing using the mind that God gave them to come to conclusions presented before them.Now what motives are present to the believer to pass on the stories and beliefs as true. If there is no God then the promises of everlasting life are not true. I can't think of a more powerful motivator to insist that what one has based their life on their beliefs on and in fact their very being on. Finding out your 401 that you've worked your whole life for is now worthless is not for the fainthearted. I know if I thought this way I wouldn't want the belief shattered. Afterall there is either the belief or their is a mistake and it is not true. So when you look at motive for something like this who has the bigger stake in it? Now going beyond the belief system lets look at who profits from perprating the belief. Belief is big business. Their are salaries to pay, building to upkeep, in some cases their has been and continues to be political and social power.
Scientists have no motive as scientists to disprove God. It is the anonymous atheistic element in the scientific community that has such intentions. Corruption has permeated the church from the top down and it is in a sorry state today, to be sure. I wonder if some of the leaders actually have lost faith and only perpetuate what they believe is a myth to gain power and prestige and the almighty buck. Jesus intimated that it was likely that faith would be non existent upon his return. All these sad events can’t change what is true, however.
I am not one who believes in ‘belief’ in and of itself. I feel it is following the teaching of Christ that saves a person, not the expressed belief in certain facts about Him. Saying you believe in Christ and then living a life that contradicts everything He taught is ludicrous. While God probably will not punish sincerely held beliefs, if you don’t believe He exists, and the Christ was His Son whose word explains what pleases Him, your chances of doing what He demands are reduced. If you make godless theories that lead others to do ungodly things, you may be held accountable or you may suffer the loss of your children and friends to the results of their godless living. God basically only requires that you forgive as you have been forgiven by God, and that you “do justly, love mercy and walk humbly with your God.†I don’t think spitting in His eye is quite what He had in mind. Even most dogs know not to bite the hand that feeds them.
Reznwerks wrote:
You’re counting pretty heavily on that ‘if’.You jump to conclusions a lot don't you? The bottom line is just that and if proved means that God was not needed to create man.
Reznwerks wrote:
We have and some things are not accurate. Some things are accurate and some things are not.The bible is not a textbook.
Why the need to "believe"? The facts should be readily available so as to accept the facts for what they are.
Some things were ‘disproven’ in the Bible by archeological finds only to be later reinstated when further studies or new findings shed more light on the situation. The reason to believe is the same as for those who believe in the TOE. You will interpret information in the light of what you believe. It is only when faced with undeniable contradictory facts that you will abandon long held beliefs, whether Biblical or scientific. You take certain facts with a grain of salt when it comes to your personally held convictions, as does everyone.
Reznwerks wrote:
I think the Bible is more accurate than the average morning newspaper. I don’t accept the doctrine of infallibility. Anything man touches, he makes mistakes at. The message is simple however. Love one another as I have loved you. Forgive as you have been forgiven. Hate evil and sin.However you are willing to accept the bible as original and accurate for far longer. As far as history is concerned the Egyptians kept remarkable records going back at least this long and the Romans as well kept remarkably detailed records.
Reznwerks wrote:
You make allowances for carbon dating, transitional fossils, incompatible layers of sediments, inconsistencies in various theories. Allow others the same privilege.They are not straw man arguements they are simply facts and claims that contradict each other or are out and out errors and the only way to accept them as being valid is to insert all kinds of excuses such as " we don't understand what was written" or to imply that what we are reading is "not really what we think" we are reading or that the "original" wording was this and not that or the the "audience" was this and not that or the "atmosphere" was this and not that, the numbering system used was different when it was written etc etc etc. In short you have to bend over backwards to hold on the claim that their are no errors or contradictions in the bible.
Reznwerks wrote:
In short, God tested Adam to see if he would join Satan in rebellion against Him. Adam did. God could have eliminated him immediately on the spot. Instead, He loved Adam too much and chose to teach Adam to willingly abandon this rebellion forever. God has allowed us to see the effects of not doing things according to God’s far superior knowledge and wisdom. Either we will learn to submit to His will or we will be eliminated from His creation and banished from His presence. Our choice. His way or the highway. Jesus’ death was a demonstration that following God’s ways would bring eternal life to those who faithfully obey. In the end, God will have a harmonious loving creation willingly devoid of any corruption or evil. Those who choose hate, greed, oppression and evil will go to a place where those things are allowed to burn and fester eternally separated from the rest of God’s creation. Sounds like a plan.If God is too complex to play with dolls then why does he treat man the way he does using the bible. He can get rid of Satan anytime, Jesus didn't have to die on the cross. Can you tell me how dying on the cross saved man from his sins. Who demanded that Jesus die on the cross? It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority punishment or reward.
In a nutshell, God had to kill Himself to appease Himself so that He would not have to roast us, His beloved creations, in HELL forever.
He loves us more than we can ever comprehend, but if we don't return His affections, He will make us regret it for eternity.
Now you don't call that playing with dolls?