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I've been told that I am lying and causing disunity. I wrote this a long time ago. I had to give up as an evangelist because of jealous 'pastors' who were living in sin. You tell me who's causing disunity.
Free at last....
Me and my wife left one bondage 30 years ago only to go into a different kind of bondage. From the ravages of sin to the ravages of religion. I am a nut case. When my wife and I found the 'PEARL" of great price, we just thought it was the greatest thing in the world. My boast is in the Lord. We sold out to Him completely, without reserve.
Isn't that what we are supposed to do? God delivered me completely from alcohol and a thousand other things. When the smoke cleared and the fog lifted we found ourselves standing on the firm foundation of Yehowshua [Jesus], which is His real name.
But we soon discovered that we also stood pretty much alone. Were we better than everybody else? No, because you are simply saved or not saved. Grace being the conductor of the free gift. But I do believe that not every believers' surrender is at the same depth.
Both my wife and I grew up in homes that determined to instill in us our worthlessness as human beings. So when I discovered by the revelation of the Holy Spirit that Jesus really cared for me and my wife, and wanted us on His team, I flipped out literally. I was ecstatic with joy and grateful relief that Someone did care about us and did love us.
I think of the verse 'he who is forgiven most loves most.' That can also be applied to those who have spent their life in ‘much pain.'
To try to make a very, very long story short, I will proceed. From the 'git-go' we felt something was not totally right in the established churches. We were so on fire and excited about Jesus that it did not altogether resonate with other christians, especially the 'pastors'. So there was, to a degree, a cold shoulder present, a wall if you please. A wall that we tried to scale for years on end without any satisfactory results.
So what did Mr. and Mrs. 'Self Confidence' do? We started blaming ourselves of course. For the next 27 years it was a pretty much constant “what's wrong with me, what's wrong with me?”
Early on I knew, beyond any doubt, that God called me to teach and preach the gospel. I know all about the scriptural facts that there is to be a humbling process in our lives and a 'waiting period', a ' trying time', and a 'total dying time', to be worked out in us, but even beside all that we knew something else was afoot also.
Oh how I ached to work for God. So from the very start I was out on the streets witnessing and soul winning. The church couldn't stop us there. God's favor was on my efforts or rather His efforts found a conduit in me, giving Him all the praise. But alone I was and alone I stayed for years. I finally stepped out in faith as an evangelist. Walking into small churches, mainly black churches for I couldn't even get the 'time of day' out of the pastors of white churches, let alone talk to them about the ministry God gave me.
A few more years down the road and I finally was able to get into a couple of 'white' churches to hold revivals. Wow! Finally God is letting me do what has been burning on my heart for 18 years. I have now arrived! I always treated the pastors with reverence and respect. But here is where more rejection started flaring up again.
You'd think that I would be used to it by now. The Holy Spirit would bless in incredible ways. Families restored. Souls saved. Bodies healed. Only one problem. The pastors everywhere I preached would fail to resist jealousy and envy. They did not want me to ever come back again. You see those blessings are to come through him to his congregation, not through some stranger like me.
Well after 2 years of going through this mess, I gave it up. Just keep working my job and deal with the pain some more for the next 10 years. What I am going to say now I do not believe was just because these men rejected me, but my part that I played is just a small part of the reason these things happened. In '78 a pastor rejected me. Years later he went to jail for locking a family member in the basement and literally feeding them 'under the door'.
In the latter '80s, a preacher cold- shouldered me. A year later he was caught and arrested for molesting boys. Also in the latter ‘80s another pastor rejected me with a cold snubbing when my friend Rocky introduced us telling him how I was a soul winner on the streets.
I shared these things with my friend for years and he really couldn't believe me until he saw it first hand. He said “Devon, I can't believe he did that to you.” I said to him “I've been telling you Rocky. It's like that everywhere I go. No exceptions.”
A couple of years later this 'pastor' was caught and arrested for flashing himself on an open high-way. Another pastor about 34 years old rejected me when I held two successful revivals at his church. A couple of years later he died of cancer. Another pastor allowed me to play my guitar and sing a couple of songs in his church of about 300 people. The anointing was precious. Tears were filling eyes.
At the end of the service I waited and waited for an opportunity to speak with him about coming back to preach for him. He continued to pay attention to 'every mothers son' which is perfectly alright, but after 30 minutes of me just standing there 'with hat in hand' over in the corner, I knew he was avoiding me. No way was he going to let me come back and preach. I have experienced that 'avoiding program' more times than I care to count.
About a year later his wife was driving a car with another sister. Both were killed in an accident.
Now let me stop here and explain something clearly. Some of you may be thinking that I am just being a baby. To be honest with you, that is exactly what I thought about myself too. "What's wrong with me, what's wrong with me?”
But God did indeed finally make me realize that 'YES!', I did have a problem with the feelings of rejection which stemmed from my childhood, and for some reason God had not given me total deliverance yet. But He also showed me clearly by His Spirit and by the word of God that the leadership of the organized church are stuck on themselves more often than not.
The two foundational stones of the western church are avarice and arrogance. I will not at this time even go into the financial hardships we suffered because of 'tithing.’ We couldn't even get the groceries we needed for our 3 children while the pastor is going on his 4th vacation this year. Vacation...what's that???
Well I'd better move on and finish this up quickly. Well actually I think I'll stop here. Real quick, we quit with the tithing after 27 years and started doing what we always wanted to do but could not, and that is to be led by His Spirit in helping the needy. Oh how it hurt not to be able to do this for 27 years because we were commanded to dump all our money on the church.
The few times we did spend our 'tithes' sneakily on the poor, God's power and presence was so awesome in those acts, that we really started to analize this 'church doctrine’ a lot closer. We always felt bondage dumping tithes on to the chuch but when we helped the needy, God never failed to place His approval on it. Well now we are free to be directed to do what God has called us all to do. And that is to be ready to distribute to those in need as He directs.
But remember..charity begins at home. It is not scriptural to take the food out of your babies’ mouths in order to feed someone else who is hungry, let alone to use it to finance a self-serving pastor's 4th vacation of the year!!!
 
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Withheld,

Where we differ is when I was born again, having grown up in the church more or less, I immediately recognized what I call the 'church of the world' and suddenly realized there was a true 'church' of God's people in the world...and it was not in the 'church of the world', generally speaking, of course.

IMO, you're wasting your time in the church of the world. The idea is to get them out of the church of the world by talking to them outside of their churches. You're trying to change a leadership and a system that, IMO, can not and will not be changed. I remember what Christ said:

"12 Then the disciples came to him and asked, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?” 13 He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. 14 Leave them; they are blind guides. If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.”" (Matthew 15:12-14)

See that? "Leave them". Leave 'em alone. They can only lead other blind people. We're not here to uproot the plantings of the world. We're here to, first, live the truths of God ourselves, then second, help others do that too through whatever gift of speaking or service we have received. God will sort out the weeds from the tares at the end. That's not what we're about right now. Be a fruitful planting of God yourself, first. Help others become fruitful plantings of God, second.

I don't want to make a long post so I'll just make a few observations:

IMO, humility is perhaps the biggest indicator of someone truly called and prepared for service to God. Since you speak bluntly in these forums, I will speak bluntly to you. You have to stop boasting about your calling and gifting. If you truly have what you say you have people will notice all by themselves and they will be telling you that you have that calling and gifting. If you have to tell people you are gifted so they'll notice...you probably ain't. There's this principle taught in scripture of first taking the lowest seat first and being called up to a higher one later, and letting other's lips praise you, not your own. I'll skip the references for the sake of time.

What I would tell you is just keep doing what you're doing. Keep speaking in the streets, in the workplace, anywhere your gift allows you to speak. Stay out of the mainline 'church of the world'. Talk to these people where they live, not where they go to church. Don't go to their churches with the intent of changing their church and it's leadership. It ain't gonna happen.

Be content with just doing that, along with the rest of us. If you want to talk about what's wrong with our churches I'll tell you quickly that one thing that's wrong is this idea that we need to get into flamboyant, visible, full time ministry to shine in our gifts. That is nothing more than the 'beauty and talent search' mentality of the world that has invaded the church. I'm convinced Christ is dependent on us staying in our places of influence and access, our homes, our communities, our workplaces, to get the real work of the gospel completed. Church is for those who have been reached that way. Church is not a primary field for evangelism. It is for people who already believe and who meet to build one another up.

If you're convinced you have a big calling, start your own church. If you're convinced you have the faith to launch out that way, and that you have God's message, and you're called to do that...do it. I don't think it will take much time to find out if what you have to say is really what you are to be speaking, and if you have the calling to do it. And, blame MUST lay with you if it does not work out. Don't blame people for not coming to hear and support a message God did not send you to proclaim, if that be the case. If God did send you, it will work.

Know what your fundamental message is. If it's really just a message of 'what's wrong with the church' I think you have a flawed start to a ministry. Ministry, and the will of God in ministry, is to make disciples--other people who look and act like Jesus in this world, not just think right doctrines about church, etc. Any message about how the mainline 'church of the world' can't make true disciples because they don't do things right, or don't have right doctrine, is just a side note, not the basis of a ministry. The main message is the making and building up of disciples into the character of Christ according to the fruit of the Spirit. God's people will hear that message. Feed them that and they will come. Don't expect large sell out crowds, though. It's definitely not the material of the 'beauty and talent search' mentality in our church and world today. The fact that only the few are on the straight and narrow is very humbling to the 'beauty and talent' frenzy in the church today.
 
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withheld,

So what do you do for "church?" And I do not ask that out of Judgement. I ask it out of understanding what you say! We live in a town of about 100k and searched for a doctrinal Grace church for a few years, not a one.

Doctrinal Grace churches are very,very,very,very rare. We do church over the internet.And Our studies over the internet.

Here is a mission statement of our study site. And I will include a list of doctrinal teachers at the end that statement. These guys are all for REAL!

Statement:

I do NOT accept donations! Please STOP sending money!
I appreciate your kind gifts, and words, however this website is all about me giving YOU something. Not you giving to me.
Thank you
Mark Bassett

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I recently asked someone if he engaged in Bible Study on a regular basis?
He answered that he likes to read his bible every day.
Again, I asked if he engaged in Bible Study regularly.
He looked at me with a blank stare…
I then told him that, simply reading the Bible, is not, studying the Bible.
Another blank Stare…

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If growing to spiritual maturity, is the most important thing in your life…
Please visit the Pages provided to the left side of this page.
There you will find over 350 written Bible Doctrines listed A thru Z, hundreds of hours of Streaming Audio Bible Studies, and a multitude of Bible Study Tools.
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I hope you enjoy Bible Study, because it is the only way to build an Edification Complex in your soul.

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Bible Doctrine Resource is a NON-RELIGIOUS fellowship of believers in our Lord Jesus Christ. Remember… Christianity is “NOT“ a RELIGION.

RELIGION is… man through mans own efforts, trying to gain Gods approval through his own physical works.

CHRISTIANITY is… God seeking a relationship with sinful mankind, through the saving work of Jesus Christ on the cross......... http://gracebiblechurchwichita.org/

Here are a list of teachers, that I believe will not disappoint you.

*** Joe Sugrue *** Streaming Audio Bible Classes
*** Ron Snider *** Streaming Audio Bible Classes
*** John Farley *** Streaming Audio Bible Classes
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*** Robbie Dean *** Streaming Audio Bible Classes
 
GR8....looks like your on to something. We cant get the folks in Omaha interested in what Paul described as 'church' yet. The idea of dethroning the clerics and making them get real jobs {Acts. 20}, is to much to swallow for most.
Also someone forgot to mention:
2 Timothy 3:16

New King James Version (NKJV)

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for CORRECTION, for instruction in righteousness, n:
 
GR8....looks like your on to something. We cant get the folks in Omaha interested in what Paul described as 'church' yet.
Hang around. I'm starting another thread to directly address the pros and cons the church faces in regard to 1 Corinthians 14:26-40.

I know why people resist Paul's directives. Let's talk about it.
 
the early church met in homes. and yet look at the problems the Corinthians ones had, the seven churches in revalation.
 
Edward, I just can't win. Have u noticed that folks keep asking the same questions without checking earlier threads or checking references I make. I'm not doing that bad, one against how many? Cut me some slack. It's like playing short stop and ten batters slug ten balls his direction.........at the same time.
If everyone would go and listen to 'The Great Ecclesiastcal Conspiracy' a lot of confusion would cease. We could move forward without me quoting the same verses over and over.

The scary part about speaking in the street as someone suggested, a lot of them get it. Maybe not salvation, but about the greed
. Just talked yesterday to a guy in the street. He said ' all the churches talk about is money'. I said I agree.
 
In the nearly 20 years that I've been attending services at our church I do not recall our pastor ever asking for money and never preached on the topic of money in terms of giving. In fact, in his 30+ years he still insists on his salary not being any more than a newly ordained pastor would get. He turned down our offer for a vacation in honor of his 30th year serving our church. He even insisted on paying for his own health insurance. He lost that one.

He doesn't get a salary from us because he demands it. He doesn't even get it because he asks for it. He gets it because we want to make it easier for him to serve our congregation and the community. He does a lot more than deliver a sermon once a week on Sunday morning and we want him to be able to do as much as he is led to do.
 
Wip, I like your guy already....however, all of us should being doing the work of the ministry in a local setting, assembly. Not one salaried professional. Paul tells ALL the elders to work secular jobs. With all due respect, and I love your guy already, he's still out of order.
 
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What are the duties of a Pastor? From what I read in the bible a Pastor is to do 2 things. Study and teach bible doctrine.

I do not see anywhere where the Pastor is to set up countless ministries,visiting the poor,visiting hospitals,lining up coffee for the flock,getting fundraisers set up,getting a live band lined up.......the list goes on.

A pastor should be feeding His Flock 5 or 6 times a week(probably every day), not once a week because He does not have time to study and teach.
 
Gr8, the single 'pastor' concept is foreign to the n.t..the word is plural in Ephesians. Pastors, teachers, prophets, apostles, evangelists....elders all. .all plural within the local body. Also ministries belong to ALL the folks, not just a handful or one.
 
1 Cor. 12
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Ephesians 4
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

I would like to take notice of the words I highlighted in bold type. Since only some are called for these gifts, what of the rest of us? We are not a southern Baptist congregation. If we relied on individuals from our mostly conservative Scandinavian Lutheran congregation to be bold enough to speak out as you describe, we would probably hear the mice snoring.
 
Gr8, the single 'pastor' concept is foreign to the n.t..the word is plural in Ephesians. Pastors, teachers, prophets, apostles, evangelists....elders all. .all plural within the local body. Also ministries belong to ALL the folks, not just a handful or one.

A pastor is a shepherd. A shepherd leads/teaches the Flock.

The Church is a divine institution set up by God. The Family of God.

The Man and the woman is a divine institution set up by God. Are we all parents in that family? Or is there an order of authority and structure.

I have to disagree with you. The pastor leads the Flock in His Gift of teaching the Flock in what God has called SOME to do.

I couldn't imagine a young pastor that is not fully prepared to preach yet, interrupt Paul in Eph 4 and say," I will take it from here!" And Paul bows His head and takes a seat. No, Paul had the authority in his congregation.
 
Please forgive me I do understand if you've never been in an organic fellowship where the presence of God is manifest, you'll have a hard time seeing what I'm describing.
Trust me, if the Holy Spirit is allowed to freely flow, you wouldn't hear any snoring. However that does not negate the moment when Paul was debating a long winded situation, a guy fell a sleep and fell
Out of a loft Did I spell that right?
Paul visited, as as evangelist and gave sound teaching.then he left. He did not resemble the modern paid pastor.
When he taught and debated, that was not a monologue. Interaction was present.
Some disagree with 1Cor.12 and14. So what do we do? Continue to disregard it?
 
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Please forgive me I do understand if you've never been in an organic fellowship where the presence of God is manifest, you'll have a hard time seeing what I'm describing.
Trust me, if the Holy Spirit is allowed to freely flow, you wouldn't hear any snoring. However that does not negate the moment when Paul was debating a long winded situation, a guy fell a sleep and fell
Out of a loaf. Did I spell that right?

Could you give me an example of this church. Can I find one on the internet. Is yours on the internet? I would like to look into this.
 
Gr8', i love ya already, you're not kicking my caboose.lol! You know, that's a good question. A n.t. fellowship on line. I'll look into that. However that couldn't possibly be as rewarding and inter-relational as being together physically.
However again, it may be the only way for a person to have some contact with other believers that hunger for this deeper fellowship that Paul's outline would afford.
I know where we live, we can't find others that are even willing to discuss the first century model for an assembly. But hope springs eternal.
For further research on how we r to do church according to the bible, check out truthforfree.com also check out 'Pagan Christianity' by Frank Viola.
Try inviting your Christian friends to walk with you on this study. Don't be surprised if no one is interested. I hope someone is. Remember what Jesus said, if there is at least 2 or 3 gathered in His name, He'll be in your midst.
 
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Please forgive me I do understand if you've never been in an organic fellowship where the presence of God is manifest, you'll have a hard time seeing what I'm describing.
Trust me, if the Holy Spirit is allowed to freely flow, you wouldn't hear any snoring. However that does not negate the moment when Paul was debating a long winded situation, a guy fell a sleep and fell
Out of a loft Did I spell that right?
Paul visited, as as evangelist and gave sound teaching.then he left. He did not resemble the modern paid pastor.
When he taught and debated, that was not a monologue. Interaction was present.
Some disagree with 1Cor.12 and14. So what do we do? Continue to disregard it?

I assume you are addressing my post here? You are probably correct that I may not have experienced what you are talking about and it may be me that does not understand. I can imagine it would be a wonderfully terrific experience to say the least. :)

I wonder though...do you think it is too much to expect all gatherings to be this spiritual?

Never mind....dumb question.
 
what of the rest of us?


Ephesians 4:12 answers that question IMO. Those that were apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and gifted individuals helped to build up the saints so that the saints could do the work of service/ministry.

An issue that largely goes ignored due to what our accepted customs are is that the institutionalized church has usurped the duty of the individual members creating a situation that permits members to be uninvolved in the work of service. All the member need to do is make some contributions and then the corporate church will decide on and then do the work that the members should be doing themselves.

The church has become a big-goverment institution that much like our welfare state in Washington, institutionalizes and supports those that don't want to do work they should be doing themselves.
 
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